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Alleine
2010-11-23, 02:26 AM
An interesting PrC from Fiendish Codex 2. It has an ability that can be used every encounter to grant a certain number of points usable on the rest of the class abilities. You can spend them on boosting your attack vs evil creatures, healing yourself, boosting AC, saves, getting a Dimensional Anchor on the enemy with your next attack, or poofing an evil outside altogether.

Has anyone played it? Loved it? Hate it? Is it strong, weak, or average?
Is it necessary to have a good charisma?

I ask because I'm really tempted to use it in an upcoming campaign and it seems like a great way to get a little strength/versatility out of a straight melee character. I was thinking barbarian going into hellreaver, but if the charisma is worth it, maybe a dip in Paladin of Freedom for some cha synergy? I don't usually get to play melee so I'm not entirely certain what would be effective or not.

imperialspectre
2010-11-23, 02:29 AM
It's basically another attempt at making a Paladin useful past about 4th level. It works fairly well. I would, in fact, recommend having a good Charisma score; if you wanted Barbarian levels I would suggest Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Paladin X/Hellreaver Y. Ought to work quite well.

Alleine
2010-11-23, 04:39 AM
Yeah, barbarian mostly for the pounce, but also rage since it fits the theme of hellreaver. Good to know hellreaver won't gimp me.

Tytalus
2010-11-23, 04:45 AM
A simple but very effective build for in-combat healing is something like (idea not from me, found somewhere here on the boards)

Crusader 5 / Hellreaver 5 / Binder 1 / Crusader +9 with Extra Granted Maneuver.

It's a tank that can heal people while beating people up, indefinitely:


Every time you hit someone you provide 2 points of healing (or 4 with Aura of Triumph, which also works off any ally's attack).
Every time you hit someone with a maneuver you provide extra healing of 150 points, 25 points or 25 points to all within 30 feet.
Every round as a swift action you can provide another 20 points of healing.


You can do this indefinitely, as long as there are enemies to fight. Whenever you run low on allies that need healing, you can use a different maneuver or your Holy Fury ability, doing more damage and less healing.

Greenish
2010-11-23, 06:03 AM
Yeah, barbarian mostly for the pounce, but also rage since it fits the theme of hellreaver.Rage also has some applications for Intimidate strategies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), which you might want to consider if you're going to have a decent charisma score.

Evildoers beware!

faceroll
2010-11-23, 06:13 AM
Note that PHB paladin and barbarian have some rather incompatible class features.

Grynning
2010-11-23, 11:32 AM
Note that PHB paladin and barbarian have some rather incompatible class features.

That's why you don't use the PHB paladin. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)

Alleine
2010-11-23, 02:12 PM
A simple but very effective build for in-combat healing is something like (idea not from me, found somewhere here on the boards)

Crusader 5 / Hellreaver 5 / Binder 1 / Crusader +9 with Extra Granted Maneuver.

It's a tank that can heal people while beating people up, indefinitely:


Every time you hit someone you provide 2 points of healing (or 4 with Aura of Triumph, which also works off any ally's attack).
Every time you hit someone with a maneuver you provide extra healing of 150 points, 25 points or 25 points to all within 30 feet.
Every round as a swift action you can provide another 20 points of healing.


You can do this indefinitely, as long as there are enemies to fight. Whenever you run low on allies that need healing, you can use a different maneuver or your Holy Fury ability, doing more damage and less healing.

As interesting as this is, binder doesn't really fit the flavor though I can definitely see the use for it, and ToB is one of the few 3.5 books that I am not comfortable using simply due to unfamiliarity. I'll definitely look into it though. The prospect of being a mostly self reliant unkillable tank is very appealing. Thanks!


Rage also has some applications for Intimidate strategies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), which you might want to consider if you're going to have a decent charisma score.

Evildoers beware!

oooh, thanks. I hadn't considered fear. Not sure how applicable it is to the campaign but I'll ask the DM if there's going to be a lot of monsters with immunity to mind affecting. This could get fun :smallbiggrin:

Ryuuk
2010-11-23, 02:25 PM
A simple but very effective build for in-combat healing is something like (idea not from me, found somewhere here on the boards)

Crusader 5 / Hellreaver 5 / Binder 1 / Crusader +9 with Extra Granted Maneuver.

It's a tank that can heal people while beating people up, indefinitely:


Every time you hit someone you provide 2 points of healing (or 4 with Aura of Triumph, which also works off any ally's attack).
Every time you hit someone with a maneuver you provide extra healing of 150 points, 25 points or 25 points to all within 30 feet.
Every round as a swift action you can provide another 20 points of healing.


You can do this indefinitely, as long as there are enemies to fight. Whenever you run low on allies that need healing, you can use a different maneuver or your Holy Fury ability, doing more damage and less healing.

Now I'm curious, what is the Binder level doing in there? Does this take ability damage somehow?

Boci
2010-11-23, 02:29 PM
Now I'm curious, what is the Binder level doing in there? Does this take ability damage somehow?

It costs con damage to recharge your hero points mid battle. Otherwise you opnly have class level + cha mod.

Akal Saris
2010-11-23, 04:29 PM
It's only 2 Con dmg though - assuming your party has somebody who can cast lesser restoration (or you take ranks in UMD and use a CL 1 wand made by a paladin), you can skip the binder level entirely.

Honestly, it looks like a terrific and fun build to me.

arguskos
2010-11-23, 05:19 PM
In my last major campaign, I had an NPC with the party who was a Knight 5-->Hellreaver for the rest of the game. He was always of use, and never sat it out, ever. He could tank like no one else, could draw aggro, could spread his healing around, could rip up evil outsiders, and was generally what you want from a tanky character.

Hellreaver is quite certainly not a bad PrC at all.

Person_Man
2010-11-23, 05:46 PM
Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver X is pretty nice. Pounce, Rage, Cha to Saves and a bunch of miscellaneous things from Hellreaver, Immunity to Compulsion and Fear, Turn Undead (for your favorite Domain feat), Mettle, and Swift Action healing. Not an amazing build, but for someone looking for a tank that's hard to screw up and doesn't have a lot of rules complexity, it's a decent choice.

Pechvarry
2010-11-23, 05:58 PM
If you have Righteous Strike of Vitality, why do you even need the Binder level? Heal removes ability damage.

Tytalus
2010-11-23, 06:50 PM
As interesting as this is, binder doesn't really fit the flavor though I can definitely see the use for it, and ToB is one of the few 3.5 books that I am not comfortable using simply due to unfamiliarity. I'll definitely look into it though. The prospect of being a mostly self reliant unkillable tank is very appealing. Thanks!

Binder has more staying power, but a Rod of Bodily Restoration [MIC] does the trick, too. It even recharges itself each day.

If you skip the binder level, you can go Hellreaver 6 (nice) and still have 9th level maneuvers.

Tytalus
2010-11-23, 06:54 PM
If you have Righteous Strike of Vitality, why do you even need the Binder level? Heal removes ability damage.

Comes in only at the very end of the build. If you want something playable before that, you'll look for another way to deal with the CON damage.

Alleine
2010-11-23, 07:27 PM
It's only 2 Con dmg though - assuming your party has somebody who can cast lesser restoration (or you take ranks in UMD and use a CL 1 wand made by a paladin), you can skip the binder level entirely.

Honestly, it looks like a terrific and fun build to me.

That's what I was thinking. I know someone else is playing a cleric focused on turning and healing, so restorations should abound.


In my last major campaign, I had an NPC with the party who was a Knight 5-->Hellreaver for the rest of the game. He was always of use, and never sat it out, ever. He could tank like no one else, could draw aggro, could spread his healing around, could rip up evil outsiders, and was generally what you want from a tanky character.

Hellreaver is quite certainly not a bad PrC at all.

Awesome :smallbiggrin: Good to know!


Binder has more staying power, but a Rod of Bodily Restoration [MIC] does the trick, too. It even recharges itself each day.

If you skip the binder level, you can go Hellreaver 6 (nice) and still have 9th level maneuvers.

I honestly don't expect to need to recharge more than once per encounter, if even that. Seeing as you can only use one ability per turn, and they don't start costing more than one point until 6th level. I just don't see myself spending everything I've got, especially with a good cha.

I was actually planning on going Hellreaver for all 10 levels, mostly for the hit/damage power, the healing, and if I can get the capstone altered(due to what I expect will be a lack of evil outsiders) that gives me an even better reason to go to 10.

Glimbur
2010-11-23, 07:30 PM
It's only 2 Con dmg though - assuming your party has somebody who can cast lesser restoration (or you take ranks in UMD and use a CL 1 wand made by a paladin), you can skip the binder level entirely.

The real advantage to the binder-based Con restoration is that it doesn't take an action in combat. In-combat actions are valuable.

Pechvarry
2010-11-23, 09:42 PM
Considering how infrequently that Fury Point recharge move would actually get used, I'm thinking Tytalus' Rod should last any sane person until 9th level maneuvers.

Fizban
2010-11-23, 09:53 PM
I think the Hellreaver's pretty nifty, but I get the feeling it would end up pretty bland if you didn't have any maneuvers or other stuff to do. The description builds it up like you're going to have to worry about what to do every round, but you only have two choices: strike or heal. I'd increase the AC bonus ability by at least 2 points, to make it actually an attractive option. Maybe you'll never use it anyway, but right now it's not even an option.

For attacking, while dipping Barbarian for pounce is never a bad idea, I'd stick to single attacks myself. The strike ability only lasts for one attack, so I'd focus on a single attack ubercharge or maneuvers. You can also use it with ranged attacks, so don't just assume you're helpless if you can't fly.

Pechvarry
2010-11-24, 01:03 AM
I think the Hellreaver's pretty nifty, but I get the feeling it would end up pretty bland if you didn't have any maneuvers or other stuff to do.

Regrettably, this could be said of any melee.

I'd like to see some uses for taking all 10 levels of the class, though. Preferably w/out maneuvers just because that's an easy way of making any melee good.

arguskos
2010-11-24, 04:42 AM
I'd like to see some uses for taking all 10 levels of the class, though. Preferably w/out maneuvers just because that's an easy way of making any melee good.
I still stand by Knight 5/Hellreaver 10/Whatever X. It's not the most exciting, but it's a capable tanking character, draws fire very effectively, has a few handy tricks (thanks to Knight levels and clever feat choices) that let you do standard reach shenanigans and trip people and whatnot, and isn't really all that hard to build, making it a fun, decently effective, melee build.

If you want something more creative, you're probably out of luck. Hellreaver, at its core, is a PrC that does exactly two things: dish out damage against evil creatures and tank effects. It doesn't *have* anything really unique to build around, and can basically be slapped onto any effective melee build you want. A Binder/Hellreaver would be pretty effective. A Knight/Hellreaver *is* fun. If your DM lets you enter with a Hexblade, that could be pretty fun (Dark Companion at 4th, use curse and furious strike to combo people into the ground).

Hellreaver has some of the easiest entry prereqs in the entire game. Just mix it into anything with five solid combat levels, like Pounce Whirling Frenzy Barb 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Hellreaver X, and watch the blender commence.

Darrin
2010-11-24, 07:27 AM
Comes in only at the very end of the build. If you want something playable before that, you'll look for another way to deal with the CON damage.

Would Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest + 1 essentia negate the Con damage?

true_shinken
2010-11-24, 07:31 AM
I have a (Lion Totem) Barbarian 5/Hellreaver 6 in my game.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-24, 08:55 AM
Would Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest + 1 essentia negate the Con damage?

I don't see why not. Depending on the character/party, you might want a straight-up Incarnate dip for some other nifty soulmeld rather than spending feats, or perhaps not.

FMArthur
2010-11-24, 09:24 AM
It's just a Charisma-based Factotum that gets lesser versions of a Factotum's level 1-5 class features, but as a 10-level prestige class only enterable at 6th level minimum. If its bonuses were actually your Charisma modifier (and thus had the ability to scale) or could be used multiple times in a turn it would be a way better class, but as-is it doesn't even provide very strong Charisma synergy. I would rather just have multiclassed Paladin and Marshal levels than any equivalent amount of Hellreaver levels, to be honest.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-24, 09:31 AM
Eh? "Having points that make its class features work" is similar, but the Hellreaver is much more focused on fighting and healing (and much less on skills) than the Factotum is.

Pechvarry
2010-11-24, 03:21 PM
Honestly, the weak focus on Cha is actually a selling point for the class. A Warblade 6/Hellreaver 10 with a natural Cha of 8 will enjoy that he still has enough points to carry him through most encounters. If he can overcome the occasional Con damage, he really doesn't need Con damage at all. Speaking of Warblade, it's actually the other example of why this is a good thing: Warblades have tons of INT class features, but having a low INT doesn't really set them back. It's typically icing on the cake.

I agree that Knight/Hellreaver would be fun. I built one but never played it. The problem with Knight and Hexblade entries is that both of those base classes punish you for leaving them behind (save DCs, hexes/day). I know Knight still offers the terrain stuff, but it still makes me sad.

Now I want to make a Shadow Sentinal/Hellreaver to be a "factotum of combat". This build will ultimately be terrible. Are there any other point-based melee classes (power points don't count)? Preferably ones w/out Swift Action reliance?

arguskos
2010-11-24, 03:29 PM
Now I want to make a Shadow Sentinal/Hellreaver to be a "factotum of combat". This build will ultimately be terrible. Are there any other point-based melee classes (power points don't count)? Preferably ones w/out Swift Action reliance?
Inb4 Factotum? :smalltongue:

But seriously. Factotum is like the point-based class out there that isn't PsyWar.

Alleine
2010-11-24, 04:03 PM
It's just a Charisma-based Factotum that gets lesser versions of a Factotum's level 1-5 class features, but as a 10-level prestige class only enterable at 6th level minimum. If its bonuses were actually your Charisma modifier (and thus had the ability to scale) or could be used multiple times in a turn it would be a way better class, but as-is it doesn't even provide very strong Charisma synergy. I would rather just have multiclassed Paladin and Marshal levels than any equivalent amount of Hellreaver levels, to be honest.

Meh, marshal does some of the things that hellreaver does except they're constant effect and much, much slower. From a tanking perspective, marshal just looks terrible. Marshal just never impressed me as anything more than a dip for the motivate x line of auras.


So I've set myself on Barb1/Paladin4/Hellreaver10 for the final build. I have no idea if we'll even go to 15 or not so I'll worry about it when I get there. Focusing on rage + intimidate, pounce, and hellreaver to keep me alive/take down the tough guys with single hits where pounce is inapplicable.