Imperium Of Man VS Galactic Empire [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

BRC

2010-11-23, 01:34 PM

Here is how I see it.

The Imperium has a better command structure, more experienced troops (considering that the Imperium is constantly fighting a multi-front war against loads of other, very powerful races), and while their ships are FAR behind GE ships technology wise, they're so overbuilt and durable that, deployed en-masse, they could probably win. What's more, their command structure makes them more difficult to decapitate with a single decisive strike (At the same time, it makes them more divided), and the morale of their citizens is, oddly enough, probably higher (They've got the whole Emperor Worship thing, and while life may suck, most people are angry at their immediate superiors rather than the Imperium itself. I didn't get the impression that the GE was anything more than a dictatorship). Whats more, the Imperium probably has a larger standing force, assuming it can be pulled away from the countless warzones it's engaged in at any one time.

However, the GE has better ships, more mobility (Good, clean hyperdrive instead of the insanely dangerous Warp Travel). If the GE attempts to fight a full scale war of attrition, conquering each world individually, they WILL lose. The Imperium is like a glacier, slow to act, but unstoppable.
If, however, they carefully pick their battles, not going for places like Cadia or Sol system, but using their hyperdrives to strategically attack Forge worlds, Segmentium capitals ect they can cause enough disruption to everyday Imperial life that the Imperium will fall apart.

The GE certainly has the ability to win, by fighting smart and choosing their battles, so I'd bet on them. However, there is a chance they'd try to hit someplace like Cadia with overwhelming force and lose so many troops and ships that the Imperium could overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

Moff Chumley

2010-11-23, 01:34 PM

Selrahc

2010-11-23, 01:38 PM

Um, actually, aren't these two more on a scale of Eclipse/Sovereign class vessels?

Sort of. I'd put them closer to the Death Star in power. The Planet Killer is capable of doing the full "Turn a planet into rubble beam". And the Blackstone Fortresses are even more powerful than that when working in concert.

Ork hulks? Where???

A large portion of hulks are Ork run, or even ork built. Two of the more notable were the one that crashed on Gorkamorka and the one that was the flagship of the assault on armageddon. On occasions they serve as more than just transport and warship, but are transformed into the holy grail of the Mekanists art with the deadliest weapons Orkanity can devise.

As giant planetoid sized ships, capable of fighting off an entire fleet I would definitely put these on the scale of the Death Star.

Does Imperium of Man even have a concept of using starfighters capable of crippling enemy battleships? If not, they can run into a nasty surprise. The best ship Imperium seems to have in this category is Thunderhawk - while stronger and more resilient than TIE, it's big and nowhere as manoeuvrable, and is sitting duck against proton torpedoes.

Point defence on Imperium ships is really really good, certainly at least comparable to the Empire and its Tie Fighters. The Imperium itself mainly uses assault boats to board, rather than starfighters and bombers. But a lot of its foes make heavy use of starfighters, and the turrets of Imperium warships are suitably advanced to repel them.

The Glyphstone

2010-11-23, 01:39 PM

I think it's worth note that the Imperium is way, way bigger. But if the Empire plays their cards right, they're maneuverable enough for it not to matter. So, it all comes down to who's in charge. For the Empire to actually conquer the Imperium, it'd take some kind of tactical genius-

THRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN! :furious:

Eh, Thrawn would put up a good fight, but only until Usarker E. Creed Infiltrated a Titan onto Thrawn's command bridge.

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!:smallbiggrin:

BRC

2010-11-23, 01:40 PM

Eh, Thrawn would put up a good fight, but only until Usarker E. Creed Infiltrated a Titan onto Thrawn's command bridge.

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!:smallbiggrin:

Thrawn and Creed meet and team up to conquer both sides.

It is then revealed that they were both Tzeentch

The Glyphstone

2010-11-23, 01:42 PM

Thrawn and Creed meet and team up to conquer both sides.

It is then revealed that they were both Tzeentch

You're on to something. Doesn't Thrawn have blue skin? And he's a master strategist/tactician?

Totally a Tzeentchian cultist right there.

TigerHunter

2010-11-23, 01:45 PM

That being said - Empire would have won, but it depends on definition of victory - by glassing enemy planets they win quickly, by actually conquering them... it would took decades, maybe even a few centuries, baring decapitating attack on Terra.
The Empire loses, then. They couldn't even maintain a hold on their own galaxy for more than a few decades, let alone conquer another one. And besides, the Empire relied on fear to keep their holdings in line. It's hard to maintain a fear of force if all your forces are too busy fighting a war to silence discontent.

On the other hand, if (I know next to nothing about the 40k 'verse) the Imperium would obviously be even worse to live under than the Empire, the opposite might be true - a war against obvious bad guys tends to have a unifying effect. After all, that's how Palpatine was able to sieze power in the first place, and how the New Republic and the Empire ended up allies after the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

Edit: I was waiting for someone to mention Thrawn.

Selrahc

2010-11-23, 01:55 PM

It is worth pointing out.. the Warp may be slower, but it isn't like the Imperium is going to be completely unable to launch a counter attack. A massive imperium battlefleet can be sent to crush some choice Empire holdings.

EvilSun

2010-11-23, 02:16 PM

The problem with the Warp is the sheer unpredictability of it.

Never mind ftl travel, there have been recorded occasions of ships and messages arriving before they departed/were sent (and a far more frequent number of ships just disappearing or messages getting lost).

Not to mention space hulks and the like just dropping out of warp at random, possibly carrying a random invasion force/raiding party of orcs/chaos marines/genestealers.
Exactly... the Warp is the major "disadvantage" here....

Doesn't that depends on which, if any, of the superweapons the Empire has? Can the IoM deal with the Death Star before it merely blows up Terra? If the Sun Crusher sneaks in and starts a supernova within Terra's sun, can they somehow stop the process?

If we start pulling out the biggest guns in the respective arsenals we end up with an empty galaxy. As example, the IoM could virus bomb every planet they meet.. or the Galactic Empire could just blow up every sun... so thats kinda pointless. Lets talk about battles.....

Um, actually, aren't these two more on a scale of Eclipse/Sovereign class vessels?
Planet killer is Death Star x 10.... really, Necrons and C´tan are more badass than anything the GE could field....

The Imperium has a better command structure, more experienced troops (considering that the Imperium is constantly fighting a multi-front war against loads of other, very powerful races), and while their ships are FAR behind GE ships technology wise
I would not go that far... again, its about the 2 universes that are very, very different from each other.

Good, clean hyperdrive instead of the insanely dangerous Warp Travel).
and again, there is no warp in the GE - universe, and there is no hyperdrive in the WH40k universe.

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 02:26 PM

Planet killer is Death Star x 10....

I don't know about that.

Time taken for Death Star to blow up a planet when the beam is fired- seconds at most. With a defensive shield up.

Time taken for Planet Killer to blow up the planet Savaven in Battlefleet Gothic rulebook- half an hour.

Or, compare the Sun Crusher destroying the Carida star to the Triple Blackstone Shot that blew up the Tarantis star.

Sun Crusher- 1 torpedo, star explodes two hours later.

Triple Blackstone- star explodes four weeks later.

Imperium standard capital ships (cruisers) tend to be larger than Galactic Empire standard capital ships (Imperial-class Star Destroyers)- an ISD is 1.6 km long, a Lunar Class Cruiser is 5 km long.

However, the Wookieepedia figures for acceleration of Star Destroyers are much higher than those of Imperium ships (given in Rogue Trader)

For an example, the maximum sustainable acceleration of a Lunar class cruiser, is 2.5 G.

(There are cruisers with different armament though- the Dictator has fighters and bombers).

Ravens_cry

2010-11-23, 02:33 PM

Well, if neither side has a way of practical interstellar travel in each others universe, this is pretty much a non-starter. After all, as Douglas Adams said, "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space."
Even if Imperium and Star Wars spacecraft can move a good clip outside of FTL, that still means a LONG time for transit.

Emperor Ing

2010-11-23, 02:39 PM

You're on to something. Doesn't Thrawn have blue skin? And he's a master strategist/tactician?

Totally a Tzeentchian cultist right there.

The way I see it, Thrawn would help the Empire quite a bit, but there's only so much you can do when you realize last-second that the belching smoke, enormous plate mail, grinding gears, port-and-starboard mounted heavy bolters, spiked bulldozer shovels, and enormous apex mounted cannon turret should've given the intern you just ordered to go get coffee away as a Leman Russ Demolisher.

The way I see it, the Empire could feasabily win if they're smart, but I don't think they're smart. The closest thing they have to brains is in Thrawn, and he's too busy trying to fight off a Leman Russ Demolisher that somehow infiltrated the Chimaera's command bridge.

Selrahc

2010-11-23, 02:52 PM

It's definitely true that any particularly adept general is going to be dead very quickly. Possibly not due to an infiltrating Russ, but I really don't think the Empire has any assassins on the competence level of a Callidus or the other Officio Assasinorium operatives or any means to root out operatives of that level.

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 02:56 PM

The Force-using Emperor's Hands might do. Mara was one, but there were others. Very good operatives.

EvilSun

2010-11-23, 02:57 PM

Time taken for Planet Killer to blow up the planet Savaven in Battlefleet Gothic rulebook- half an hour.
Its a necron construct. Its physics defy reality... if you know WH40k... nothing beats the C´tan.

Or, compare the Sun Crusher destroying the Carida star to the Triple Blackstone Shot that blew up the Tarantis star.

Sun Crusher- 1 torpedo, star explodes two hours later.

Triple Blackstone- star explodes four weeks later.
honestly... what does that matter? if you have something that destroys stars on both sides, its pretty much game over for both sides anyway... thats why weapons as the Sun Crusher or the Blackstone fortress are actually totally useless. If both sides destroy stars, the whole conflict is just totally pointless. we need to limit every comparison to "conventional" weapons, everything else is ... does anyone get that picture?

Imperium standard capital ships (cruisers) tend to be larger than Galactic Empire standard capital ships (Imperial-class Star Destroyers)- an ISD is 1.6 km long, a Lunar Class Cruiser is 5 km long.

However, the Wookieepedia figures for acceleration of Star Destroyers are much higher than those of Imperium ships (given in Rogue Trader)
Well, GE technology is far off logic, what can I say. They obviously use similar propulsion tech to the IoM, but they magically have more effectiveness and no fuel spent on top of it. Uh well. :smallconfused:

Well, if neither side has a way of practical interstellar travel in each others universe, this is pretty much a non-starter.
Nah, who says something like that? But something as basic as moving around has to have the same base - so either both use the warp to travel or both use hyperspace... something so fundamental to any comparison has to be the same in cross universe comparisons.

The way I see it, the Empire could feasabily win if they're smart, but I don't think they're smart. The closest thing they have to brains is in Thrawn, and he's too busy trying to fight off a Leman Russ Demolisher that somehow infiltrated the Chimaera's command bridge.
Basically the IoM could win every engagement by simply teleporting a nuclear warhead on GE ships. IoM teleporters use the warp and can not be shielded against. Uh well, bad cards for the GE.

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 02:58 PM

Its a necron construct. Its physics defy reality... if you know WH40k... nothing beats the C´tan.

The Planet Killer is a warp cannon (at least, in the descriptions in the BFG book, it uses warp energy). Necrons don't use warp-based technology.

IoM teleporters use the warp and can not be shielded against. Uh well, bad cards for the GE.

According to BFG rulebook, teleport attacks specifically cannot be made against a ship with it's shields up.

That might be "in-game" though.

Selrahc

2010-11-23, 03:07 PM

The Force-using Emperor's Hands might do. Mara was one, but there were others. Very good operatives.

Once given the title of Emperor's Hand, the agent was granted almost unlimited access and authority to accomplish their missions. Without naming themselves as physical manifestations of the Emperor's will, Emperor's Hands could take command of military units, starships or weapons as necessary. To preserve their effectiveness, only the highest echelons of the Imperial command structure were aware of the Hands' existence. The methodology varied by agent and mission, with styles ranging from silent sniper strikes to destructive rampages. Regardless of their method, each Hand operated as a ghost; striking and vanishing, which elevated them to near mythic levels amongst those who dared cross the Emperor.

I'd peg them more as Inquisitors. Hyper capable operatives, but nowhere near as good as the Imperium Assassins at killing people, they are trained in frankly absurd ways. The Assassins are much better in combat than any Space Marine.

Really though, the internal security of the Empire is what I was thinking of. And given that a few wanted criminals were able to wander around the death star almost completely unimpeded I'd definitely say there is nothing that could stop a Callidus.

On the other hand, psychic sweeps, random loyalty tests and general security protocols are fairly standard amongst the Imperium, who have to always be on the lookout for heresy amongst even previously loyal citizens. You'd have a hard time infiltrating them.

Emperor Ing

2010-11-23, 03:10 PM

I'm pretty sure the Planet Killer was constructed in the Warp and then given to Abaddon the Failure with the attached note "If you can't conquer Cadia using this mother, Ursarkar Creed is going to make off with your arms."

The fact that the Imperium is able to hold their own against powers with that kind of foresight is remarkable in and of itself.

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 03:13 PM

I'd peg them more as Inquisitors. Hyper capable operatives, but nowhere near as good as the Imperium Assassins at killing people, they are trained in frankly absurd ways. The Assassins are much better in combat than any Space Marine.

True. The Empire does have its own Force-using Inquisitors though. Their primary job is seeking out Force-sensitives, and Jedi in hiding.

The Hands are a bit more "assassin-ish" than The Inquisitors, within the Galactic Empire.

Talkkno

2010-11-23, 03:32 PM

Guys shouldn't we just link him to the old thread rather then rehashing the arguments over and over again.

EvilSun

2010-11-23, 03:32 PM

The Planet Killer is a warp cannon (at least, in the descriptions in the BFG book, it uses warp energy). Necrons don't use warp-based technology.

aaaahhhh, i was confused, wrong info. The planet killer is just a pimped battleship used by Abaddon. I confused it with the world engine (which is a totally different league).

Oh, and the C´tan and Necrons can use warp based technology - its just that their own toys are much saver. The warp is not more dangerous to the Necrons than to any other being... BUT it is the only thing that actually can harm the C´tan. Examples for C ´tan and Necron warp tech are the Cadian Pylons and the Bringer of Death (the Nightbringers ship which stayed in the Warp for several million years).

Talkkno

2010-11-23, 03:35 PM

Oh, and the C´tan and Necrons can use warp based technology - its just that their own toys are much saver. The warp is not more dangerous to the Necrons than to any other being... BUT it is the only thing that actually can harm the C´tan. Examples for C ´tan and Necron warp tech are the Cadian Pylons and the Bringer of Death (the Nightbringers ship which stayed in the Warp for several million years).

Cite and qoute, the Warp is anemetha to the C'tan

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 03:35 PM

Are the Pylons warp tech, or warp-suppressing tech?

And the Bringer of Darkness got sucked into the warp during an attack by a fleet of alien ships (which might have been orks) it's not clear if it could get into the warp itself under normal circumstances.

It does manage to leave the warp though.

EvilSun

2010-11-23, 03:42 PM

Cite and qoute, the Warp is anemetha to the C'tan
First off, necrons are no C´tan. Secondly, fire is deadly to humans too, still we use it. Something being deadly does not mean you can not use it.

Are the Pylons warp tech, or warp-suppressing tech?
Yes it is, but taking some basic logic suggests that someone who knows how to suppress something knows a great deal about the workings of the thing he wants to surpress.

And the Bringer of Darkness got sucked into the warp during an attack by a fleet of alien ships (which might have been orks) it's not clear if it could get into the warp itself under normal circumstances.
In the novel "Nightbringer" it is repeatedly stated that the Bringer of Darkness was waiting for the call from its master in the warp. Also, it was popping in and out of the Warp in the same system, which means that it HAD to have means to a) enter the warp b) leave it c) stay intact (gellar fields or something similar) in the warp and some kind of communication that worked in the warp.

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 03:46 PM

It did seem very atypical of normal Necron ships- the standard Necron Tombship never enters the warp, but travels entirely in realspace,

using inertialess drive.

I wondered if fluctuations in the warp were causing the Bringer of Darkness to become visible and invisible to passing ships- without the ship itself ever powering up its engines.

Not sure about how the C'tan communicated with its ship though.

Selrahc

2010-11-23, 03:59 PM

hamishspence

2010-11-23, 04:01 PM

The planet killer being made by the C'Tan definitely isn't true, it's a ship made by rogue tech priests in the daemon foundries of the warp as the personal flagship of Abaddon whose main gun is based on chaos. I have no idea what possible connection it has to the C'Tan.

he mentioned he'd gotten it confused with the World Engine here:

aaaahhhh, i was confused, wrong info. The planet killer is just a pimped battleship used by Abaddon. I confused it with the world engine (which is a totally different league).

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-23, 05:52 PM

I think it's worth note that the Imperium is way, way bigger. But if the Empire plays their cards right, they're maneuverable enough for it not to matter. So, it all comes down to who's in charge. For the Empire to actually conquer the Imperium, it'd take some kind of tactical genius-

THRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN! :furious:
What leads you to the conclusion that the Imperium is bigger? The Imperium of Man doesn't cover the entire Milky Way; meanwhile the Galactic Empire is exactly what it says on the tin, and in a galaxy about 20,000 light years larger in diameter than our own to boot.

Moff Chumley

2010-11-23, 05:57 PM

1) It made a handy setup to the tactical genius meme.
2) GRIMDARK usually means big. Therefor, GRIMDARKer means bigger.

Irbis

2010-11-23, 07:50 PM

Edit: Correction, apparently starfighters do exist with the Fury interceptor and Starhawk bomber. The larger battleships can carry up to 2000 craft, usually a combination of fighters, bombers and dropships.

I see. But, these are 70 meters long; TIEs are 7 meter long, pack greater firepower (turbolaser-class guns vs lascannons, non-guided bombs vs proton torpedoes) and are faster and more manoeuvrable to boot - if Imperial commander decides to ignore this 'innocent' squadron of bombers the next thing he can see is heavy cruiser exploding from within.

Even if they were comparable, C&C of TIEs is going to make them superior in every respect.

Depends on how effective blasters are. If they're on par with lasguns, then it's going to be a fairly onesided battle. I doubt stormtrooper armour would be able to stand up to bolter fire.

I have read Stormtrooper armor/weapons are between these of Inquisitorial Stormies and these of the Space Marines. Let's assume low-end Carapace Armour (which can protect from bolters) and Hotshot Lasgun (which can penetrate SM armour) - and Stormies have an array of heavier weapons to boot.

AT-AT against Leman Russ?

Um, that's Warhound-class Titan equivalent right there.

Come ON! If they can be tripped by land speeders with a rope, how about being rammed in the legs while being shot at by a massive cannon.

Nothing. The legs are virtually impervious to lascannons. Note what happened when rebels tried to shot them with big guns - they simply dissipated the energy.

Aaaand, since Imperium doesn't have anything comparable to landspeeder or its monomolecular cable, well...

AT-ST chicken walkers can be stopped by teddy bears with rocks.

In what way they're different from non-stupid Sentinels? :smalltongue:

The Imperium has a better command structure

They have a command structure? :smallconfused:

However, the GE has better ships, more mobility (Good, clean hyperdrive instead of the insanely dangerous Warp Travel). If the GE attempts to fight a full scale war of attrition, conquering each world individually, they WILL lose.

Um... it will win. What Imperium does when they suffer losses? Draw more reservists, train them, slap kevlar vest on them, you have good soldier in a year.

What Empire does? Clone additional 12 million stormtroopers, each of which grows in a month, slap hypno-training on them, give them equipment IG can only dream of, and in 6 weeks you have additional units comparable in quality to IG stormtroopers and SM scouts.

Sure, this would need a concentrated effort to produce enough cloning machines first, but since this is an all-out war with a whole Empire's resources, and Thrawn managed to do that with his tiny fragment, well...

In the meantime, Empire can reactivate captured Separatist factories, capable of producing thousands of droids per minuter, each one as disposable as IG Infantryman trousers, yet on par with all non-veteran IG guys.

I think it's worth note that the Imperium is way, way bigger.

I think they're comparable - each fluff mentions 1 million fully developed planets. But! In Imperium's case, most of these are feudal/agri/death/other crappy worlds with illiterate populace. Even millions living in hives/forges are barely slaves. Empire, on the other hand, can expect every single citizen to use its tech fluently after brief training.

A large portion of hulks are Ork run, or even ork built. Two of the more notable were the one that crashed on Gorkamorka and the one that was the flagship of the assault on armageddon. On occasions they serve as more than just transport and warship, but are transformed into the holy grail of the Mekanists art with the deadliest weapons Orkanity can devise.

As giant planetoid sized ships, capable of fighting off an entire fleet I would definitely put these on the scale of the Death Star.

Wait, where? :smallconfused:

I thought Hulks are mangled wrecks hold together by enuff stikka tappa? :smallconfused: I have goggled these two, and their greatest accomplishments seems to be crashing on random planet while not killing more than 60% of these aboard.

How is that Death Star level, again? :smallconfused:

Point defence on Imperium ships is really really good, certainly at least comparable to the Empire and its Tie Fighters. The Imperium itself mainly uses assault boats to board, rather than starfighters and bombers. But a lot of its foes make heavy use of starfighters, and the turrets of Imperium warships are suitably advanced to repel them.

You mean these manual ones? :smalltongue:

Two problems there. First, TIEs are order of magnitude smaller and faster than WH40K starfighters. Can they be targeted? Even if so, the bigger problems are not starfighters, but proton torpedoes. A single hit will create a hole big enough to drive an Imperator-class titan through. Can they target them as well?

Eh, Thrawn would put up a good fight, but only until Usarker E. Creed Infiltrated a Titan onto Thrawn's command bridge.

Then, after a single stern look from Thrawn, Creed will take his pet Leman Russ and go crying before the Emperor, seeing how crude his ways were until this point.

Then, Leman Russ will return from EoT, look at Thrawn, and go crying as well, feeling unworthy of wearing blue armour forever afterwards :smalltongue:

On the other hand, if (I know next to nothing about the 40k 'verse) the Imperium would obviously be even worse to live under than the Empire, the opposite might be true - a war against obvious bad guys tends to have a unifying effect.

Yup :smallwink:

A single holovid showing Nurgle's followers, and the whole of GE will wet their pants and will force Palpy to raise war spending a hundredfold to kick them back into their hole :smalltongue:

It is worth pointing out.. the Warp may be slower, but it isn't like the Imperium is going to be completely unable to launch a counter attack. A massive imperium battlefleet can be sent to crush some choice Empire holdings.

Yes, but Empire has less vulnerable targets, if only due to full planetary shields, has no centres of weakness like Terra, and the most important worlds can receive better defence than IoMs, due to their speed.

It's definitely true that any particularly adept general is going to be dead very quickly. Possibly not due to an infiltrating Russ, but I really don't think the Empire has any assassins on the competence level of a Callidus or the other Officio Assasinorium operatives or any means to root out operatives of that level.

Well... aside from every single one of them being shot with no F&F doubt from Empire's side, Empire has lots of assassins (Inquisitors, ImpIntel, ISB, Hands, Prophets), can hire a lot of extremely dangerous bounty hunters, and most of all: can mass-produce assassins.

Remember HK-47? He is old tech for the Empire, yet, he is more badass than most Imperial assassins combined :smalltongue:

Really though, the internal security of the Empire is what I was thinking of. And given that a few wanted criminals were able to wander around the death star almost completely unimpeded I'd definitely say there is nothing that could stop a Callidus.

Other than not knowing the language, how you use Empire's common technology, or what the last hit on Coruscant was? :smallconfused:

It's the Empire with their access to protocol-droid grade translation, replicants and holofields who can count on perfect infiltration.

These rebels were walking on DS because A) they were allowed to; B) penetrated the line of defence by being captured; C) had Jedi Master and Solo's extra-proof smuggling bins at their side.

On the other hand, psychic sweeps, random loyalty tests and general security protocols are fairly standard amongst the Imperium, who have to always be on the lookout for heresy amongst even previously loyal citizens. You'd have a hard time infiltrating them.

The same Imperium that suffers a hundred Chaos/Tau/Genestealer/Eldar backed uprisings per week? :smallconfused:

On the other hand, if Shadows of the Empire is right, Empire has virtually impenetrable scanner technology - Leia walked through a simple customs check only thanks to a lot of meddling (including bribes and a real alternative ID) of the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy that disguised her as a very difficult to check alien.

EvilSun

2010-11-24, 02:15 AM

Wow, here really is some SW fanboy :)

I see. But, these are 70 meters long; TIEs are 7 meter long, pack greater firepower (turbolaser-class guns vs lascannons, non-guided bombs vs proton torpedoes) and are faster and more manoeuvrable to boot - if Imperial commander decides to ignore this 'innocent' squadron of bombers the next thing he can see is heavy cruiser exploding from within.

Even if they were comparable, C&C of TIEs is going to make them superior in every respect.
TIEs have turbolasers? Ok, where do you have that from? And lascannons are actually really strong weapons - do not let you fool by their name....

I have read Stormtrooper armor/weapons are between these of Inquisitorial Stormies and these of the Space Marines.
Unless there is official fluff that matches those 2 universes I think you can savelfy forget what you have read.

Let's assume low-end Carapace Armour (which can protect from bolters) and Hotshot Lasgun (which can penetrate SM armour) - and Stormies have an array of heavier weapons to boot.
First of all, always keep in mind that any WH40k equipment will be scaled down for TT games - SM are really awesome, but you will not see their real strenght in TT for balance reasons. Inquisitor goes more with the fluff, and things are different there... also, your assumptions are based on... nothing at all ^^.

Um, that's Warhound-class Titan equivalent right there.
ATAT = warhound equivalent ? you have to be kidding me. Warhounds can level cities and are amongst the toughest units in WH40k. ATAT get smashed by a rope - and are not nearly as maneuvrable.

In what way they're different from non-stupid Sentinels?
Sentinels are much smaller and faster.....

They have a command structure?
No, they substain a galactic empire besieged from all sides by running into battle without command structure and plan...

Um... it will win. What Imperium does when they suffer losses? Draw more reservists, train them, slap kevlar vest on them, you have good soldier in a year.
in an open battle this really is not that ineffective. on top of that IoM planets are slightly more populated than the average GE planet. Coruscant would qualify as a hive city... and the IoM has thousands of hives....

I thought Hulks are mangled wrecks hold together by enuff stikka tappa? I have goggled these two, and their greatest accomplishments seems to be crashing on random planet while not killing more than 60% of these aboard.

How is that Death Star level, again?
they are used by orks ^^. if you kill orks you just make sure that you are flooded by orks the next day. also, hulks are almost indestructable... and depending on the hulk can have whatever arcane weaponry you can imagine (I once played an Apocalypse match with an ork where he built a super-zzap gun on his hulk to destroy planets).

You mean these manual ones?
servitor manned.....

Can they be targeted? Even if so, the bigger problems are not starfighters, but proton torpedoes
average ship to ship torpedos in WH40k are hundreds of meters long and pack vortex-, nuclear- or plasmawarheads. and those ships can take a few hits by those things. proton torpedoes are like a sneeze compared to that.

Remember HK-47? He is old tech for the Empire, yet, he is more badass than most Imperial assassins combined

that really made me lough.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 03:55 AM

What leads you to the conclusion that the Imperium is bigger? The Imperium of Man doesn't cover the entire Milky Way; meanwhile the Galactic Empire is exactly what it says on the tin, and in a galaxy about 20,000 light years larger in diameter than our own to boot.

In the novels, the figure usually given for the Galactic Empire is "a million worlds"

Which also happens to be the figure given for the Imperium.

Astrella

2010-11-24, 05:50 AM

Yes, but we also know that most 40K fluff writers have absolutely no clue about numbers or scale.

(I point to Imperial Guard crusades of a million guardsmen.)

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 05:53 AM

The "a million worlds" figure has been around for a long time though.

Usually in the form of comparing the number of space marines to the number of imperial worlds (what with about a thousand chapters, normally with 1000 marines in each).

"There is less than one marine for every world in the Imperium- and yet they are enough" and the like.

(I point to Imperial Guard crusades of a million guardsmen.)

I point to the three million Fett Clones for the whole Grand Army Of The Republic figure that has cropped up in several EU novels :smallamused:

Eldan

2010-11-24, 05:55 AM

Yes, but we also know that most 40K fluff writers have absolutely no clue about numbers or scale.

(I point to Imperial Guard crusades of a million guardsmen.)

Since when had Star wars EU writers any sense of scale or numbers?

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-24, 07:16 AM

I point to the three million Fett Clones for the whole Grand Army Of The Republic figure that has cropped up in several EU novels :smallamused:
And Karen Traviss got fired from writing for Star Wars for a reason. :smallamused:

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 07:23 AM

And Karen Traviss got fired from writing for Star Wars for a reason. :smallamused:

True, but Traviss wasn't the only writer with a limited concept of scale in the EU.

In the Corellia trilogy the New Republic is so strapped for ships that they deed to go to the Bakurans to get them- but both before and after this, they are described as having huge fleets.

Shall we say both 40K and Star Wars have the same scale issues crop up occasionally?

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-24, 07:28 AM

True, but Traviss wasn't the only writer with a limited concept of scale in the EU.

In the Corellia trilogy the New Republic is so strapped for ships that they deed to go to the Bakurans to get them- but both before and after this, they are described as having huge fleets.

Shall we say both 40K and Star Wars have the same scale issues crop up occasionally?
Of course they do. The problem is that most people simply have no concept of just how huge an undertaking the military occupation of an entire planet is. Karen Traviss is possibly the worst of the lot (for a self-proclaimed military expert, she sure has a hard time realizing that she described the Republic's military as smaller than that of the United States during World War II and placed before it a war literally millions of times larger in magnitude without allies), but galactic scale is something that most people don't put a lot of thought into, and therefore don't write about very well.

Brother Oni

2010-11-24, 07:28 AM

With regard to Force sensitive operatives working in the 40K universe, given that they have absolutely no conditioning to the Warp, chances are they'll just be a big glowing beacon for whatever warp beastie who decides to take up residence.

Supposing if Force ability/sensitivity had no risk whatsoever of triggering Warp induced possession and that the operatives were no more at risk than the average Imperium citizen, they might be on par with Callidus assassins, but without the fancy gadgets or Polymorphine.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 07:30 AM

Force illusions, while maybe not quite as good as polymorphine, can disguise a Force user pretty well.

Maybe, for the sake of transparency, we could lay down some rules that allow both sides to use their stuff fully?

Something like:
Force-sensitive beings from the Star Wars Universe, are equivalent to Tyranids in terms of psychic power. Using their powers does not draw daemons. For them "Perils of the Warp" represents overchannelling their powers, and thus suffering brainburn. (This is what the 4E codex says about tyranid psychic power)

"Hyperspace" from the Star Wars universe, is equivalent to "the edge of the warp" as used by Tau ships- the Tau don't need to worry about daemonic attack on ships, or warp currents. However, their speeds are a fraction of those of Imperium ships. Assume the Star Wars ships have so much better engines, that they can achieve speeds far in excess of those the Tau can.

Sound like a good start?

EvilSun

2010-11-24, 08:11 AM

(I point to Imperial Guard crusades of a million guardsmen.)
which crusade do you mean? The ones i know have billions of guardsmen....

the smallest I remember was the damocles "crusade" who was really small because of logistics (tau space) and the relatively small opposition (tau) and the fact that most of the military was engaged otherwise (13th black crusade and a hivefleet).

EvilSun

2010-11-24, 08:19 AM

Something like:
Force-sensitive beings from the Star Wars Universe, are equivalent to Tyranids in terms of psychic power. Using their powers does not draw daemons. For them "Perils of the Warp" represents overchannelling their powers, and thus suffering brainburn. (This is what the 4E codex says about tyranid psychic power)

"Hyperspace" from the Star Wars universe, is equivalent to "the edge of the warp" as used by Tau ships- the Tau don't need to worry about daemonic attack on ships, or warp currents. However, their speeds are a fraction of those of Imperium ships. Assume the Star Wars ships have so much better engines, that they can achieve speeds far in excess of those the Tau can.

Sound like a good start?

Bah, you make it all in favour of SW universe, you know? As example, the reason nids are save from daemons is that they are a hivemind that calms the warp. Well, force users do not share a hivemind.... so either you give them this feature and seriously weaken their powers or you do not give it to them.

Also, you are picking the finest things with the "edge of the warp" of Tau ftl... Tau ftl is also the slowest known form of warp travel in the WH40k universe... so if you give that to the GE without speed limitations - thats just nonsense. The IoM has much more advanced ftl than Tau and should be limited because of that? The speed in the warp also has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with "better" engines, because things like distance and time do not exist in the warp. Its about the navigation... IoM has navigators (special bred mutants). tau do not. GE also has no navigators.

handpicking advantages for either side is just... lame.

And since speed is that important... either both sides have the same ftl capabilities, or it just gets ridicilous.

The 2 universes are simply that different in the ftl aspect that a cross comparison is outright unfair.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 08:59 AM

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080929232716/starwars/images/7/7f/AT-AT_egvv.jpg

A schematic of an AT-AT. Heavily armoured it may be, but its only armed in the front, severally limiting it's arc of fire. Send a Leman Russ with a dozer blade to push that top heavy thing right over from outside that arc, no super strong cord required. Heck, get some space marines with grappling hooks and pull a Chewie.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 09:32 AM

Read the descriptions of Tau tech in BFG Armada- they don't need navigators- and they don't enter the warp but skim the edge of it.

handpicking advantages for either side is just... lame.

And since speed is that important... either both sides have the same ftl capabilities, or it just gets ridicilous.

The 2 universes are simply that different in the ftl aspect that a cross comparison is outright unfair.

It's intended to represent the way each sides are, not the way I'd like them to be.

For the moment, we'll remove all the enemies of both sides- so they only have each other. The two galaxies have effectively been superimposed on top of each other.

From the point of view of the Galactic Empire, every rebel ship, vehicle, person, and rebel planet, has mysteriously disappeared (This is right before Tarkin starts trying to coerce Leia into betraying the location of the rebel base). At the same time, a whole lot of new systems have appeared (replacing various uninhabited systems.)

Palpatine knows, that all these new systems, are a new Empire- but he knows nothing about any of the systems- only where they are.

From the point of view of the Imperium, every alien, every Chaos trooper (human and Marine) every daemon, and all their planets, have mysteriously disappeared. The warp storms, even the Eye, are calm. Any Tome Worlds are now empty. The only alien tech that's still there is that Imperium uses- such as the Gates of The Old Ones, or the Golden Throne. And new systems have appeared in place of the alien ones.

The High Lords know, that these new systems are a new Empire- but they know nothing about the systems, only where they are.

Since they are superimposed, Holy Terra is in the Unknown Regions, on the far side of the hyperspatial anomaly that makes travel into the Unknown Regions difficult.

Each side, seeing as they know nothing about the abilities of the other, will send out messages (via the Holonet, or the Astropathic Network), to start probing.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 09:44 AM

Both sides have incompatible FTL in each others universe. If anything, since IIRC, the Warp responds to sentient life, it would likely expand into the SW universe given enough time, giving IoM a distinct advantage.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 09:53 AM

Hence, it's only from their point of view that the other side has been transplanted into their universe.

The reality is, both sides have been transplanted to a third universe, where everything works (albiet just a little better).

In standard Star Wars, Imperial ships are occasionally lost in hyperspace.

In the 40K-verse, Imperium ships have to cope with currents, storms, and hungry daemons.

In this intermediate universe, both sides have safer FTL (but at the same speed as they would in their own universe). And the "psychic powers" of both sides work (though for the Imperium, since the warp is calmer, there's less risk of daemonic possession than normal).

Eldan

2010-11-24, 10:09 AM

However, if you make the warp completely safe, you take away one of the main advantages the empire has: maneuverability.

Remember: warp travel can be basically as fast as necessary, though not constant. If it suddenly becomes save, and they can hop over as much as they want, then the empire's advantage is gone.

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-24, 10:10 AM

Bah, you make it all in favour of SW universe, you know? As example, the reason nids are save from daemons is that they are a hivemind that calms the warp. Well, force users do not share a hivemind.... so either you give them this feature and seriously weaken their powers or you do not give it to them.

Also, you are picking the finest things with the "edge of the warp" of Tau ftl... Tau ftl is also the slowest known form of warp travel in the WH40k universe... so if you give that to the GE without speed limitations - thats just nonsense. The IoM has much more advanced ftl than Tau and should be limited because of that? The speed in the warp also has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with "better" engines, because things like distance and time do not exist in the warp. Its about the navigation... IoM has navigators (special bred mutants). tau do not. GE also has no navigators.

handpicking advantages for either side is just... lame.

And since speed is that important... either both sides have the same ftl capabilities, or it just gets ridicilous.

The 2 universes are simply that different in the ftl aspect that a cross comparison is outright unfair.
Utter nonsense. We can't arbitrarily give them the same FTL capabilities; that neuters the entire point of comparing the two. Hyperdrive uses a technology unknown to the Imperium of Man and does not require use of the Warp to do what it does. End of story.

That said, the Warp in the Star Wars galaxy (we have to presume it exists for the purposes of the scenario) is obviously not as tumultuous as the Warp in the Milky Way circa M41, since demons aren't going around eating people and psykers aren't spontaneously showing up. We know this is possible because in WH40K's past the Warp wasn't nearly so violent, and it is more or less violent depending on region of space as well even in the "present day" of the setting. The IoM invading the Galactic Empire as opposed to vice versa would likely find Warp travel much less hazardous and unpredictable than in their home galaxy, such as it was before the Heresy.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 10:12 AM

Remember: warp travel can be basically as fast as necessary, though not constant. If it suddenly becomes save, and they can hop over as much as they want, then the empire's advantage is gone.

In Rogue Trader, even assuming no disasters, time still travels differently.

A jump of 2000 light years, takes 2 weeks "in the warp" but one year in the "real world".

Plus, much of the extra speed comes from riding the currents- if it's calmer, the maximum possible speed will be lower.

So, even with a calm warp, the Empire will have an FTL speed advantage over the Imperium- thanks to time dilation.

The IoM invading the Galactic Empire as opposed to vice versa would likely find Warp travel much less hazardous and unpredictable than in their home galaxy, such as it was before the Heresy.

I figured transferring both sides to a third galaxy, and superimposing them on top of each other, would ensure that no matter what, each side has only a short distance to travel from an Imperial world, to an Imperium world.

Eldan

2010-11-24, 10:12 AM

Obviously, Midichlorians are tiny warp parasites in the star wars galaxy that eat away the various humanoids' warp energy.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 10:15 AM

Well, being in a third universe is an advantage for Imperium. The Warp is much more dangerous then hyperspace, and if they are transplanted, assuming the other sides are not transplanted with them, they can now bring the full force, that has been holding back a race that could and I quote "make a stick fire bullets if you convinced it it could." , biological nightmares that already ate a galaxy or two, undead robots, literal demons, angry space elves with far higher technology, and upstarts who are rising fast with increasingly advanced technology.
And if they ARE transplanted with them, then the Galactic Empire has to deal with them as well.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war, and they're GOOD at it.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 10:19 AM

EvilSun

2010-11-24, 10:31 AM

So, even with a calm warp, the Empire will have an FTL speed advantage over the Imperium- thanks to time dilation.

Warp is a bitch. What you described is possible, but it does not have to be this way. There is - as example - fluff about a Whaaaagboss who wanted to jump his Hulk into warp when his Hulk jumped into the System. As it turns out it was him in 2 days future... well, the Whaaaghboss attacked himself to get a 2nd shiy gun from himself for himself :smallbiggrin:

There is fluff on ships crossing the galaxy in the matter of a day and others of ships crossing the galaxy in hours but having aged thousands of years... and there are reports of ships needing thousands of years to reach their target but having only aged minutes.

If the warp is calm, IoM may very likely have an actual advantage here.

also, just think about the sheer power of psychers if the warp is calm. an alpha pls psycher could just throw entire battlefleets into the next sun...

calm warp would boost any psycher to ridicilous levels of power...

Emperor Ing

2010-11-24, 10:35 AM

My predictions:

Ground Combat: Imperium wins, no question at all. A Leman Russ can easily wreak havok on even the best of the GE's armored units. A Baneblade could probably win a battle single-handedly while the dozen AT-ATs sent after it are just target practice. The notion that the AT-AT is the Warhound Titan's equivalent is ridiculous, the smallest of the imperium's titans, when deployed, would routinely destroy the equivalent of a dozen AT-ATs without any difficulty.

Space Combat: The Empire might have an advantage in Hyperspace being far safer than Warp travel, but in the actual fight...I want you to take a look at those turrets on the ship's top. (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/1274059971811.jpg) Also note the star destroyer close to the bottom. I might be thinking out loud, but who do you think would win in a fight between this thing and a star destroyer?

Overall, the only way I can see the GE winning is if they get really smart about their FTL advantage, and do a LOT of Base Delta Zeros. Otherwise they have nothing to show for anything except a huge number of debris fields.

The Glyphstone

2010-11-24, 10:39 AM

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-24, 10:40 AM

It's not the size of the gun; it's the hitting power of what comes out of the barrel. :smallwink: Not to say that the IoM doesn't have ridiculous naval firepower - it does - but your methodology is flawed, to say the least.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 10:43 AM

Both sides still have to deal with internal dissention. Remember, while there are no rebels (and no Chaos soldiers) rebellions can easily start up again.

Taking away the main enemies of each side (the rebels, and everything in the Unknown Regions, for the Empire, all the aliens, daemons, and Chaos guys, for the Imperium) does result in a slight advantage to the Imperium.

But I figured, no distractions for either side. Just two problems to deal with- the other side, and any new rebellions.
Um yeah, advantage Imperium. New rebellions will be less likely with this new enemy on the horizon. Not impossible, but compared to fighting the other forces of W40K? Not so big. And now, they can actually do things with some precision, with none of the operational losses from the Warp. And, as others have mentioned, with a calm warp, psychers can act at full, and terrifying, capacity.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 10:50 AM

Remember the Imperium doesn't actually employ alpha-plus psykers, due to their insanity. Hence the "plus".

For the moment- the only battle psykers they have are the ones they normally use- which tend to top out at Space Marine Chief Librarian.

Similarly, even if a daemon isn't going to possess them, a psyker is still limited by their own personal "strength".

I figure, the greatest heights of plus-alpha power, are fuelled by an active warp- so they cut loose, Titans get folded in two- and then a daemon possesses the psyker.

With a calm warp, the maximum power might be lower.

The warp travel issue- I figured use the default warp speed. Ships can't race on the currents- but they're not getting Lost, either.

Since it's (very shortly) pre-Yavin, Palpatine has not yet learned how to create what he calls "Force Storms" (hyperspace wormholes).

...how accurate is that scale?:smallbiggrin:

Pretty accurate actually- Cobra Destroyers are 1.5 km long, Cruisers are 5 km long, and Battleships are quite a bit bigger than that (figures from Rogue Trader).

cdstephens

2010-11-24, 10:55 AM

Exact same thread in TOR forums...

Bad memories...

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 11:04 AM

Exact same thread in TOR forums...

Bad memories...
It's Hitler verses Stalin. think about it, more advanced tech expensive toys (the Death Star) with impressive potential verses nigh Reserves with battle tested equipment. The analogy isn't perfect, but we all know who won that one.

The Glyphstone

2010-11-24, 11:04 AM

Exact same thread in TOR forums...

Bad memories...

I can imagine. Any discussion forum where the primary local community is the same/heavily related to one of the VS. factions is going to feature some...heated opinions.

It's Hitler verses Stalin. think about it, more advanced tech expensive toys (the Death Star) with impressive potential verses nigh Reserves with battle tested equipment. The analogy isn't perfect, but we all know who won that one.

...does Godwin apply to the use of a Hitler analogy for the purpose of military strength/composition?

AstralFire

2010-11-24, 11:07 AM

I can imagine. Any discussion forum where the primary local community is the same/heavily related to one of the VS. factions is going to feature some...heated opinions.

On this note: It was interesting to see how, over time, the Dragonball forum on GameFAQs became populated with people who did not back Goku on any of the traditional Goku v. _____ fights.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 11:17 AM

Do you think my suggestions,

(which are designed to make the Imperium less unpredictable- lower maximum speeds, but less danger of Lost In Warp, lower maximum psychic power effect, but less danger of Perils Of The Warp)

may help to make the comparisons a bit easier? By setting a baseline for the usually very variable in effectiveness Imperium?

This bit here:

Since it's (very shortly) pre-Yavin, Palpatine has not yet learned how to create what he calls "Force Storms" (hyperspace wormholes).

ensures the Empire isn't getting to field fleet-killing psychic power either, just as the Imperium doesn't field alpha-plus psykers in battles.

And the early date limits the superweapons available- Sun Crusher still has 10-odd years to go.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 11:30 AM

...does Godwin apply to the use of a Hitler analogy for the purpose of military strength/composition?
Maybe, but it is still a good analogy in my mind.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 11:33 AM

The Wookieepedia figure for the number of Imperial class star destroyers (considered the "mainstay" of the fleet, so probably making up the bulk of its combat strength) is around 25000.

Are there any figures for how many cruisers the Imperium has to field? Maybe based on the size of the average sector fleet, and the number of sectors?

We know the Imperial Navy fleets are bigger than those of the Space Marines, that there are a thousand-odd chapters, and, ballpark figure- each chapter can typically field 4-5 strike cruisers and a battle barge (some more, some less) plus several escort squadrons.

Imagine all that, plus all five Segmentum fleets, engaging all 25000+ ISDs, the Executor (I believe commissioned immediately before Yavin) and the rest of the Imperial Starfleet.

EDIT: Apparently the Executor wasn't complete till after Yavin. Maybe by the time the Empire and the Imperium really got to grips with each other, it would be complete?

Coidzor

2010-11-24, 11:52 AM

Supposing if Force ability/sensitivity had no risk whatsoever of triggering Warp induced possession and that the operatives were no more at risk than the average Imperium citizen, they might be on par with Callidus assassins, but without the fancy gadgets or Polymorphine.

That pun right there. That's the worst pun I've ever seen.

It's Hitler verses Stalin. think about it, more advanced tech expensive toys (the Death Star) with impressive potential verses nigh Reserves with battle tested equipment. The analogy isn't perfect, but we all know who won that one.

And that didn't occur in a vacuum.

EvilSun

2010-11-24, 12:19 PM

Remember the Imperium doesn't actually employ alpha-plus psykers, due to their insanity. Hence the "plus".
Something that does not matter anymore when the warp is calm. The danger of the psycher is primarily the problem of possession - and the more powerful the psycher, the more powerful the gateway for a daemon into the material universe is. With a calm warp, that danger does not exist... which makes any class of psycher fieldable without any problem at all.

I figure, the greatest heights of plus-alpha power, are fuelled by an active warp- so they cut loose, Titans get folded in two- and then a daemon possesses the psyker.
There are Gamma level psychers of that power... and are we speaking of a "calm" warp environment or not?

In the end every "vs" thread is pointless... these are 2 totally different universes which totally different environment and history that have led to a different approach to things alltogether.

And in this case, things that are of major importance to the universe of one faction are an absolute disadvantage in any matchup with someone who does not have that things. The warp is unique to WH40k and of paramount importance to understand the IoM and Wh40k - it has direct impact on ship design, society and the universe as a whole. It is threatening, dangerous, and necessary at the same time - the SW universe has absolutely nothing that compares to it, it simply has no such single defining factor in its universe. Wh40k is built around it - taking it away or comparing it to a universe where something similar does not exist is totally pointless... as example, alone the impact on travelling is of deciding nature. Hyperspace is save. Warp is not. Either both sides have the same advantage/disadvantage or it gets pointless... the IoM simply can not compete because of the unstableness nature of warp travel.

It would make more sense to compare individual units... like an Emperor Class Battlesip with a SSD. Considering the weapons I would clearly bet on the Emperor Class - why? Laser lances beat turbo lasers. We KNOW that space combat in WH40k is fought at great distances with weapons that level continents per shot. I am talking about lightseconds here. Maybe in SW battles are fought at the same distance... but we have no prove of that. We know that the armour of WH40k vessels is metres thick, and we know SW ships do not have that kind of armour. So, WH40k wins.

Ground vehicles... ATAT beating a titan? Good joke. Titans have weapons that shoot ammunition the sice of ATATs.

Infantry? Lets forget SM, SM eat stormtroopers for lunch. Imperial Guard? Well, their basic infantry is no doubt weaker than a stormtrooper. However, the IG is about artillery and tanks. They have loads of tanks. they have deadly artillery. they have ordinatus... it is gonna be a bloody battle, but that kind of firepower is not beatable by the SW universe.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 12:25 PM

]

And that didn't occur in a vacuum.
No, but America tends to forget how much of an impact the USSR had.

Reverent-One

2010-11-24, 12:27 PM

No, but America tends to forget how much of an impact the USSR had.

Still a poor analogy because of other conditions (weather, allies) not present in the vs. thread under discussion.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 12:35 PM

Still a poor analogy because of other conditions (weather, allies) not present in the vs. thread under discussion.
Still fairly good. For example the Death Star can destroy planets, but is one of a kind, and while destroying planets is an impressive, if pointless waste of power when it is much easier to just render them uninhabitable, something more common IoM forces can do. Similarly, Hitler wanted the Me 262 converted to a fighter bomber, which wasted years of development time, and it wasn't ever a very good one, when it was much better as-is as a interceptor.

Reverent-One

2010-11-24, 12:41 PM

Still fairly good. For example the Death Star can destroy planets, but is one of a kind, and while destroying planets is an impressive, if pointless waste of power when it is much easier to just render them uninhabitable, something more common IoM forces can do. Similarly, Hitler wanted the Me 262 converted to a fighter bomber, which wasted years of development time, and it wasn't ever a very good one, when it was much better as-is as a interceptor.

You used to though to help indicate which would win, in which case it fails, as the Empire isn't going to be fighting a multi-front war, nor is it going to be bogged down by inclement weather. Without those circumstances, what happened historically could have, and in all probability would have, gone entirely the other way. This also means that if it is a good analogy, that's bad news for the IoM, which I don't think is the point you were trying to make.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 12:52 PM

You used to though to help indicate which would win, in which case it fails, as the Empire isn't going to be fighting a multi-front war, nor is it going to be bogged down by inclement weather. Without those circumstances, what happened historically could have, and in all probability would have, gone entirely the other way. This also means that if it is a good analogy, that's bad news for the IoM, which I don't think is the point you were trying to make.

On the bright side for the Imperium, corrupt and slow as it can be, has been fighting a war on multiple fronts for thousands of years, surviving as a whole. It isn't likely to kill off it's best officers when warned of an invasion.

Brother Oni

2010-11-24, 12:53 PM

That pun right there. That's the worst pun I've ever seen.

Pun? :smallconfused:

Reverent-One

2010-11-24, 12:56 PM

On the bright side for the Imperium, corrupt and slow as it can be, has been fighting a war on multiple fronts for thousands of years, surviving as a whole. It isn't likely to kill off it's best officers when warned of an invasion.

Which is another point against the validity of your analogy.

TSGames

2010-11-24, 12:58 PM

You used to though to help indicate which would win, in which case it fails, as the Empire isn't going to be fighting a multi-front war...

Just popped in to point out that if we are going with the superimposed empires scenario, the both sides are in fact not fighting a mere multi-front war, rather they are fighting an omni-front war. The planets of the enemy are literally everywhere, they are fighting in all directions. 'Front' does not refer to the number enemy factions, but rather the location of the fighting, which in this case would be everywhere.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 12:59 PM

Which is another point against the validity of your analogy.

I admitted the analogy, like all analogies, was somewhat flawed from the start. Let's go back to the main issue.

hamishspence

2010-11-24, 05:36 PM

It would make more sense to compare individual units... like an Emperor Class Battlesip with a SSD. Considering the weapons I would clearly bet on the Emperor Class - why? Laser lances beat turbo lasers. We KNOW that space combat in WH40k is fought at great distances with weapons that level continents per shot. I am talking about lightseconds here. Maybe in SW battles are fought at the same distance... but we have no prove of that. We know that the armour of WH40k vessels is metres thick, and we know SW ships do not have that kind of armour. So, WH40k wins.

The Emperor doesn't have any lance batteries.

it is one of the few Imperium battleships, armed entirely with "weapons batteries" rather than lances.

Weapons batteries do massive damage over a wide area.
Lances punch through armour.

On psychic powers- the warp is calm enough that people aren't getting major issues with Perils of the Warp. This does not mean all high level psykers can smash Titans.

We're looking at the normal amount of power a high end Imperial battle psyker (say, a Chief Librarian, or Grey Knight Grand Master, or some similar) can unleash. This is not exactly Titan-smashing stuff.

I'm trying to restrict it to the normal amount of psyker power the Imperium is going to use on the battlefield- just because the warp seems quiet, does not mean they're going to open up the Black Ships and turn a whole lot of mad alpha-plus psykers loose.

Just popped in to point out that if we are going with the superimposed empires scenario, the both sides are in fact not fighting a mere multi-front war, rather they are fighting an omni-front war.

There's overlap, but since the "left hand side" of the Star Wars galaxy is Unknown Regions, and the "left hand side" of the Imperium Galaxy is most of Segmentums Solar, Tempestus, Obscuras, and Pacificus, the Galactic Empire will be mostly in the Ultima Sector.

So, while there's overlap, there will still be two zones, one of mostly Imperium space, one of mostly Empire space.

cdstephens

2010-11-24, 06:03 PM

Wait, are we counting Sith and Dark Jedi?

The Glyphstone

2010-11-24, 06:29 PM

Wait, are we counting Sith and Dark Jedi?

All 2 of them that there are in this era, maybe? Vader and Palpatine are the only Sith, though depending on how much EU material you include, there's Force-Sensitives like the Emperor's Hands.

V'icternus

2010-11-24, 06:30 PM

Only those the Empire could use.
So, not really. Not in enough numbers to make a difference. Dark Jedi and Sith can be overcome with large amounts of gunfire.

Guess what the Imperium specialises in?

Best to not use them in this particular battle. Stick to space battle, I'd recommend, for the Empire. Ground fighting gets nowhere against the Imperium.

Ravens_cry

2010-11-24, 11:19 PM

With a new location with a calm warp, this might be a good time for the IoM Emperor to ascend. That could add an interesting wrinkle to this.

EvilSun

2010-11-25, 01:29 AM

The Emperor doesn't have any lance batteries.
They do not? I remember having lances on my Emperor Class. well, whatever.

Edit: Just looked at the rules of that game I used the Empy... the fluff was about an Emperor class refittet to fill the (partial) role of an Apocalypse class - so 3 fighter/bomber squadrons and lances. Well, thats Wh40k :D

On psychic powers- the warp is calm enough that people aren't getting major issues with Perils of the Warp. This does not mean all high level psykers can smash Titans.
Thats true, the powers of the individual psychers are not all the same. But those who can can do so without danger or limitations.

We're looking at the normal amount of power a high end Imperial battle psyker (say, a Chief Librarian, or Grey Knight Grand Master, or some similar) can unleash. This is not exactly Titan-smashing stuff.

And those powers are severe limited by the dangers of warp. Most of the training WH40k psychers receive is to make sure they are not possessed. As example, though GK grandmasters are powerful psychers, most of their power is used to shield them against chaos at all times...

I'm trying to restrict it to the normal amount of psyker power the Imperium is going to use on the battlefield- just because the warp seems quiet, does not mean they're going to open up the Black Ships and turn a whole lot of mad alpha-plus psykers loose.
The question is : how many psychers are going to be mad without daemons around?

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 03:53 AM

And those powers are severe limited by the dangers of warp. Most of the training WH40k psychers receive is to make sure they are not possessed. As example, though GK grandmasters are powerful psychers, most of their power is used to shield them against chaos at all times...

The question is : how many psychers are going to be mad without daemons around?
Having that much power almost from birth- and abusing it- is bound to send high powered psykers mad. In Malleus, Eisenhorn and several others have to deal with a rogue psyker outbreak- all are captured alpha-plus psykers, and at least one is a small child.

For simplicity's sake, I'm replacing the "dangers of the warp" with "limited power available".

So, each Imperium psyker, is going to be wielding exactly as much power (no more, no less) as if it was the warp constraining them, rather than limited power available.

Only those the Empire could use.
So, not really. Not in enough numbers to make a difference. Dark Jedi and Sith can be overcome with large amounts of gunfire.

Guess what the Imperium specialises in?

Best to not use them in this particular battle. Stick to space battle, I'd recommend, for the Empire. Ground fighting gets nowhere against the Imperium.

The Imperium psykers are, in my specifications, more reliable than normal- but can't do any more, than if they were in the Imperium universe.

The reason for me specifying this? So the Imperium can fairly say, that what with a thousand chapters, most of which have Librarians, they have a lot more psychic punch than the Galactic Empire- and without resorting to any cheesy alpha-plus psyker shenanigans.

They do not? I remember having lances on my Emperor Class. well, whatever.
While the model for the Emperor class has turrets all down the top, the rules for the Emperor specify that those turrets in fact represent weapons batteries rather than lances- and some of the spines on the prow, are also weapons batteries.

It can still generate a massive amount of long-ranged fire (by combining dorsal, prow, and side batteries)- but no lance fire.

There's overlap, but since the "left hand side" of the Star Wars galaxy is Unknown Regions, and the "left hand side" of the Imperium Galaxy is most of Segmentums Solar, Tempestus, Obscuras, and Pacificus, the Galactic Empire will be mostly in the Ultima Sector.

So, while there's overlap, there will still be two zones, one of mostly Imperium space, one of mostly Empire space.
For confirmation of this- see maps of the Star Wars galaxy:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy

and compare them to maps of the 40K galaxy.

Talkkno

2010-11-25, 06:17 AM

On the subject of high end psykers feats, Deathwatch has this much to say.

"However when they(Chief Librarian) do take part in a battle, it is glorious and terrifying sight to behold as, with the power of the their mind, they level fortresses, reduce entire armies to rivers of molten flesh...."
-Deathwatch pg 183

Selrahc

2010-11-25, 06:32 AM

Chief Librarians are far and away the most powerful psykers in Imperium service though. For one very simple reason: Librarians are the only psykers in Imperial service who are not subject to the sanctioning procedures. Every other psyker in the Imperium's service gets a psychic lobotomy, drastically cutting down their potential but keeping them safe from demon possession. The very best of the Inquisitors might come close to the Elite Librarians, but nobody else.

Somebloke

2010-11-25, 06:40 AM

All 2 of them that there are in this era, maybe? Vader and Palpatine are the only Sith, though depending on how much EU material you include, there's Force-Sensitives like the Emperor's Hands.

And both of these problems can be solved by throwing Ciaphus Cain at them.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 06:42 AM

With only a thousand or so Chief Librarians (with some variance in power within those)- they probably won't be the decisive factor though. (A few chapters, like the Black Templars, won't have any librarians).

The main war, will probably be fought in space.

Here, the Imperium has a few disadvantages, to counter the advantages of huge, numerous, heavily armoured, heavily armed ships.

They have to enter and drop out of warp way out on the edge of a system. The Galactic Empire appears, from the movies, to be able to get much closer to a planet before dropout.

And out of warp, they're very slow to accelerate (6 G is about the highest figure I've seen, and that's for a destroyer) even if their top sustainable speeds might be quite high (a significant fraction of lightspeed).

So, the Galactic Empire might be able to do a bit better at dodging and accelerating away.

So, it may depend on which factors matter more.

And both of these problems can be solved by throwing Ciaphus Cain at them.

Unless we're going with non-transparency- Untouchables don't cancel out the Force, and Ysalamiri don't cancel out Psyker Power.

J.Gellert

2010-11-25, 06:42 AM

Mobility is important, but I wouldn't underestimate the Imperium's steamrolling potential.

The only certain thing is that everyone, everywhere would take heavy losses. Any planets/systems in the "warzone" are gone.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 06:45 AM

The Imperium might decide that human-populated planets (mostly non-mutated humans at that) could be a valuable resource worth grabbing- their populations can be re-educated to revere the God-Emperor.

And the same principle might apply to the Empire.

So, even if they battle, they might at least try to minimise collateral damage to planets.

Eldan

2010-11-25, 06:47 AM

Might. I'd assume that at last fortress worlds and probably Forge worlds (and whatever their empire counterparts are) would be fair game, though.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 06:53 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if both sides might go to especial lengths not to destroy these, but to capture them via subversion.

The Imperium's Sisters of Battle, has Orders dedicated to subverting planets, causing them to rise up in revolution and overthrow their rulers in the name of the God-Emperor.

I suspect the Galactic Empire might be rapidly able to adapt some of its departments (Imperial Intelligence in particular) to do the same.

Think of it as like playing Star Wars Supremacy (aka Star Wars Rebellion) only the Imperial side, and all its ships, worlds, and resources, are accurately included and statted out.

Selrahc

2010-11-25, 07:08 AM

If they just appeared next to each other there probably would be a good bit of diplomacy between the two factions during which each tries to plant spies and subversive agents. I could honestly see a diplomatic merger of the two sides, with Palpatine being made head of the High Lords and effective ruler in return for the conversion of the Empire to the Imperial Cult. The Empire is a human dominated region, with policies that are acceptable to the Imperium. If Palapatine was willing to do a Henry IV of France and convert to the state religion I could see the two merging to create an unstoppable empire of darkness.

Palapatine is after all, a manipulator. He does what he does in order to gain power and is more than willing to work with anyone. He would almost certainly have more power as De Facto leader of two Interstellar Empires than one, even if he nominally serves under an ancient corpse.

V'icternus

2010-11-25, 07:14 AM

The Emperor serving The God-Emperor?

There'd be rebellions like never before!
All easily wiped out. Filthy heretics.

FOR THE EMPEROR!
...Th-the dead one, not.. not the...
...Yeah...

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 07:34 AM

If they just appeared next to each other there probably would be a good bit of diplomacy between the two factions during which each tries to plant spies and subversive agents.

And just scouting them out, if all each side knows is that the "new systems" are there, but nothing about what ships and resources are in each system, or what kinds of planets they are.

If, for the moment, Palpatine and the High Lords take a massive dislike to each other during the first diplomatic exchanges, the clash can be maintained.

The High Lords might see Palpatine as a petty rogue psyker with delusions of grandeur.

And Palpatine might see them as hidebound and arrogant.

Eldan

2010-11-25, 07:42 AM

So he would have to change his title. I don't see that as a problem. I mean, he isn't stupid.

Anyway, that's actually not that unlikely. The Imperium has been shown to at least tolerate some non-threatening alien species. I'd assume they could live with most of the Star Wars ones. Or convince Palpatine to team up on all of them somewhere down the road, after kicking them out of the command structure.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 07:45 AM

So he would have to change his title. I don't see that as a problem. I mean, he isn't stupid.

True- but he may, after nineteen years as supreme ruler, be un-keen on knuckling under as part of a Council.

Plus, they themselves might take a "Why concede a High Lord post to this guy, when we can just roll over his empire and take it for ourselves?" attitude.

Diplomatic merger is plausible up to a point- but it defeats the idea of seeing what would happen when the two empires go toe to toe :smallamused:

V'icternus

2010-11-25, 07:49 AM

There is only one Lord of the Rings, and he does not sh-

Wait, wait, wrong franchise...

But it's true, neither the Imperium nor the Empire will be willing to give up it's hard-earned gains with a compromise.

(Cross reference "Imperium" and "Compromise".
Yeeeaaaaah...
Their most common compromise is "If we can't have it, no-one can!")

Assuming all-out war, it'd be hella fun to watch, but 40k is just so over the top I have to give it to them.

Besides, if we're comparing pre-Yavin Empire to the Imperium, that's them at the height of their power.
At the height of the Imperium's power they were...
A significantly tougher opponent. And with no xenos, mutants or good ol' fashion Chaos heretics to deal with, the full force of the Imperium of Man could come crushing down on the Galactic Empire, which, while larger, is actually worse off when it comes to full-scale war.

Of course, I still say it should all be settled in a duel between Darth Vader and, say, Ultra-Ultrasmurf, Marneus Calgar.
Which, admittedly, I would give to Calgar. But still. Darth Vader.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 07:53 AM

Besides, if we're comparing pre-Yavin Empire to the Imperium, that's them at the height of their power.
At the height of the Imperium's power they were...
A significantly tougher opponent. And with no xenos, mutants or good ol' fashion Chaos heretics to deal with, the full force of the Imperium of Man could come crushing down on the Galactic Empire, which, while larger, is actually worse off when it comes to full-scale war.

I've haven't picked a period for the Imperium yet- but late 41st millennium might do. They still have 1000-odd chapters and a whole lot of Imperial regiments, fleets, and Titan Legions.

Plus, it allows us to field our favorite 40K heroes :smallamused:

The Imperium immediately before the destruction of Alderaan (so, less alienated citizens) has a lot of good stuff, but much of its super-weaponry (and possibly some of Palpatine's force powers, like Summon Hyperspace Wormhole) have yet to be researched. And the Executor is still under construction (though nearly complete)

Plus Thrawn is still Captain Thrawn of the Star Destroyer Vengeance (with Jerec also aboard) and there is no Empire of the Hand yet.

Eldan

2010-11-25, 08:04 AM

[QUOTE=hamishspence;9833408]
Plus, it allows us to field our favorite 40K heroes :smallamused:
QUOTE]

Ooh, we should do that. Much more interesting. Let's nominate say, half a dozen characters from each, and let them duke it out in one on one duels.

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-25, 08:16 AM

Ooh, we should do that. Much more interesting. Let's nominate say, half a dozen characters from each, and let them duke it out in one on one duels.
In the vast majority of cases, that goes to 40k. The setting is simply (by design) much more geared for ground combat, and pitting wargeared-up heroes of the Space Marines and Inquisition against most Star Wars characters in a ground contest of arms will simply be massively lopsided. The Empire wins this war in space or not at all.

And everything said in this thread aside, I'm not entirely sure it can. Demonstrated warship capabilities, as I've said, suggest rough parity in firepower; it really comes down to deployment and tactics. It's actually a close call, which is more than most versus scenarios can say.

AstralFire

2010-11-25, 08:58 AM

In the vast majority of cases, that goes to 40k. The setting is simply (by design) much more geared for ground combat, and pitting wargeared-up heroes of the Space Marines and Inquisition against most Star Wars characters in a ground contest of arms will simply be massively lopsided. The Empire wins this war in space or not at all.

And everything said in this thread aside, I'm not entirely sure it can. Demonstrated warship capabilities, as I've said, suggest rough parity in firepower; it really comes down to deployment and tactics. It's actually a close call, which is more than most versus scenarios can say.

Which I suppose this makes this... an actually successful versus topic?

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 09:01 AM

And everything said in this thread aside, I'm not entirely sure it can. Demonstrated warship capabilities, as I've said, suggest rough parity in firepower; it really comes down to deployment and tactics. It's actually a close call, which is more than most versus scenarios can say.

Durability might play a part- with the Imperium capital ships (being more massive, and possibly more numerous) being able to take more of a beating than the Galactic Empire ships, but less able to accelerate quickly or turn sharply.

The imperium also tends to fire bigger stuff- how big a boom would a proton torpedo or concussion missile from a Star Destroyer be, compared to that of a hundred metre long plasma torpedo?

Which I suppose this makes this... an actually successful versus topic?

Possibly. We're getting a rough idea of who's better than who at what particular specialty, anyway.

Eldan

2010-11-25, 09:07 AM

[QUOTE=Eldan;9833428]
In the vast majority of cases, that goes to 40k. The setting is simply (by design) much more geared for ground combat, and pitting wargeared-up heroes of the Space Marines and Inquisition against most Star Wars characters in a ground contest of arms will simply be massively lopsided. The Empire wins this war in space or not at all. .

Yeah, but I want to see, say, Rogal Dorn ground someone's face into the dust. Or Jürgen shooting Boba Fett.

AstralFire

2010-11-25, 09:08 AM

I'm on-board with the idea of shooting Boba Fett.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 09:12 AM

I'm curious as to what "mandalorian iron" is equivalent to in 40K terms, in protective value.

Carapace? Power Armour? Artificer armour? Or terminator armour? (getting a 5+ invulnerable save just from the armour itself- which doesn't come with a powerfield).

Somehow I have a hard time giving it terminator grade stats.

The setting is simply (by design) much more geared for ground combat, and pitting wargeared-up heroes of the Space Marines and Inquisition against most Star Wars characters in a ground contest of arms will simply be massively lopsided.

True, but there are one or two characters in the Star Wars universe that might be capable of giving a good account of themselves even against the Imperium's finest fighters.

Galen Marek from The Force Unleashed (or his clone from the sequel) spring to mind.

Hmm- who'd win (assuming no powers on either side that aren't self-buffs) in a fight between Galen Marek and Mephiston, Lord of Death?

Let's say neither are armoured, both are wielding their favorite swords, and neither sword can damage the other.

EvilSun

2010-11-25, 10:47 AM

I'm curious as to what "mandalorian iron" is equivalent to in 40K terms, in protective value.

Carapace? Power Armour? Artificer armour? Or terminator armour? (getting a 5+ invulnerable save just from the armour itself- which doesn't come with a powerfield).

Somehow I have a hard time giving it terminator grade stats.

It would be Artificier armour (considering Mandalorians improve it over a long space of time, which is essentially what happens to Artificier armour), however, it would not have power armour stats. Why? Because it is no power armour... master craftet carapace would be my guess (inventing something new is no problem ^^), with jump capabilities - so basically a bastard between carapace and SoB Seraphim armour.

My guess.

Galen Marek from The Force Unleashed (or his clone from the sequel) spring to mind.

Hmm- who'd win (assuming no powers on either side that aren't self-buffs) in a fight between Galen Marek and Mephiston, Lord of Death?

Let's say neither are armoured, both are wielding their favorite swords, and neither sword can damage the other.
Marek is human, Mephisto is the Lord of Death... a SM with centuries of experience fighting things that make stormtroopers look like sissies who can cook your mind if he thinks of you.

as long as marek can not drop a star destroyer on mephisto....

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 10:55 AM

It would be Artificier armour (considering Mandalorians improve it over a long space of time, which is essentially what happens to Artificier armour), however, it would not have power armour stats. Why? Because it is no power armour... master craftet carapace would be my guess (inventing something new is no problem ^^), with jump capabilities - so basically a bastard between carapace and SoB Seraphim armour.

3+ save (but not actually power armour) might do- the rules are granular enough that allowing a non-powered suit to grant powered-suit level protection, is maybe justifiable.

a SM with centuries of experience fighting things that make stormtroopers look like sissies who can cook your mind if he thinks of you.

as long as marek can not drop a star destroyer on mephisto....

"Nothing that isn't a self-buff" means Mephiston won't be cooking minds.
On the other hand, Marek won't be dropping a Star Destroyer either.
So it would come down to who can deliver strikes fastest and most accurately, that get past the other guy's defensive skills, plus, who can take the most not-quite-fatal hits.

I'm thinking Mephiston would win this one. And maybe quite a few guys below Mephiston in power.

EvilSun

2010-11-25, 01:10 PM

"Nothing that isn't a self-buff"

Force Dome: Erects a barrier of psychic energy to protect the caster and his retinue
Quickening: Speeds up the attacks of the caster
Null Zone: Decreases the armour of the enemy around the caster
Might of the Ancients: Considerably increases the strength of the caster
Shackle Soul: Reduces the chance the enemy can perform any action
Shield of Sanguinius: Allies within close proximity are effectively in cover
The Sanguine Sword: Channel his rage into his forceweapon that increases his strength
Wings of Sanguinius: Pychic wings allow the caster to cross terrain.

Mephiston would eat him for breakfast.

The Glyphstone

2010-11-25, 03:00 PM

Force Dome: Erects a barrier of psychic energy to protect the caster and his retinue Quickening: Speeds up the attacks of the caster
Null Zone: Decreases the armour of the enemy around the caster
Might of the Ancients: Considerably increases the strength of the caster
Shackle Soul: Reduces the chance the enemy can perform any action
Shield of Sanguinius: Allies within close proximity are effectively in cover
The Sanguine Sword: Channel his rage into his forceweapon that increases his strength
Wings of Sanguinius: Pychic wings allow the caster to cross terrain.

Mephiston would eat him for breakfast.

These aren't strictly self-buffs (Force Dome/Shield of Sanguinis maybe, since they do affect him and he is technically one of his own allies). Not that you don't have a point regardless, but still.

hamishspence

2010-11-25, 04:47 PM

In the Darth Bane novels, Sith can generate a limited protective shield. Add in using the Force to leap over 10 metres straight up, and a Sith might be able to do quite well at the self-buffing.

Galen Marek is Sith-trained, even if he's not The Master's Apprentice, but The Apprentice's Apprentice.

In the RoTS novel, during the fight with Grievous, Obi-Wan "bends his arm like a cheap spoon" due to using The Force to strengthen himself.

Not exactly Might of The Ancients, but may qualify as nearest equivalent.

Mephiston starts out from a much better position though- his natural strength is far higher than that of any normal Marine, and he's got psychic power he can add to that to boost it.

EvilSun

2010-11-26, 03:42 AM

The whole comparison is not really fair I think - a Space Marine is genetically changed to be the ultimate warrior (in WH40k there really is not much a SM can not handle), they are trained in ways that are just insane (i mean, even the daily rituals would KILL any human being), and thats just the SM grunts. Mephisto is a SM hero, a librarian additionally, who can buff himself to insane levels, who has centuries of experience....

A Sith is stil just a human (or whatever race he is), and the only thing extraordinary about them is the use of the Force. Hell, Mephisto could win this MU by running away from him for 200 years, letting the Sith die of old age.

These aren't strictly self-buffs (Force Dome/Shield of Sanguinis maybe, since they do affect him and he is technically one of his own allies). Not that you don't have a point regardless, but still.
Sure, but if there only is Mephisto, they are ^^.

In the RoTS novel, during the fight with Grievous, Obi-Wan "bends his arm like a cheap spoon" due to using The Force to strengthen himself.
The difference again is that Mephisto (or any other SM for that matter) can do this without any strenght buffing at all - without power armour, and most likely they could do it accidentally if they do not concentrate on NOT breaking someones arm.

hamishspence

2010-11-26, 03:46 AM

For the moment, I was going with a "duelling arena" where neither can run away, and both are buffing themselves and going at it full tilt.

At what point, does the "fighting skills + buffing skills" of a 40K battle psyker, overlap with those of one of the most powerful Sith on record?

Is Galen Marek a match for an Epistolary? Codicier? Lexicanum? How about a psychic Inquisitor with great fighting skills?

The difference again is that Mephisto (or any other SM for that matter) can do this without any strenght buffing at all - without power armour, and most likely they could do it accidentally if they do not concentrate on NOT breaking someones arm.

Grievous's body (arms included) is supposed to be made of exceptionally tough metal.

EvilSun

2010-11-26, 03:57 AM

At what point, does the "fighting skills + buffing skills" of a 40K battle psyker, overlap with those of one of the most powerful Sith on record?

Is Galen Marek a match for an Epistolary? Codicier? Lexicanum? How about a psychic Inquisitor with great fighting skills?
When it comes to pure combat, i would forget about SM in general - they simply are too strong - even in WH40k there is not much a SM can not handle, and even low level SM psychers are just insanely strong.

The closest match would be psychic inquisitors with some augmentations - their body is human, some implantated nastyness and generally a lower skill level with their psycher powers due to less experience (SM have centuries to train...) - at least thats my guess.

Grievous's body (arms included) is supposed to be made of exceptionally tough metal.
Power Armour vs metal body? Well, they can shatter necrons and combat servitors, powerfists allow them to rip open tanks...

hamishspence

2010-11-26, 04:35 AM

Inquisitors and other senior members of the Imperium can extend their lives considerably with "rejuve treatment."

Interrogator Heldane, from way back in the Eisenhorn era (around 340-360 M41) was still alive in the Gaunt's Ghosts era (750-odd M41).

Also- I did say that in the "duel situation" both are unarmoured, with only The Force (or psychic power) to boost their strength.

EvilSun

2010-11-26, 04:48 AM

Inquisitors and other senior members of the Imperium can extend their lives considerably with "rejuve treatment."

I know that... however, Inquisitors are still baseline Humans and as such are at least in the grasp of Sith Lords, which was actually my point -yes, there are Inquisitors around with a few hundred years on their back, and yes, they ought to have more refined powers than younger ones.

But there are few inquisitors, and even fewer that live that long.

Also- I did say that in the "duel situation" both are unarmoured, with only The Force (or psychic power) to boost their strength.
Why did you bring Grievous as example then? He is neither a Sith Lord nor unarmoured. Sure, he needs it to live, but then we can as well field a Librarian in a dreadnought... and breaking a thin arm like those of Grievous really cant habe been your point, can it?

Oh, and btw, the problem with breaking exceptionally hard metal is NOT the strenght, but how much strenght your body can take without breaking itself. The human body can only take that much force bevore its bones give away... there are actually people who break their own bones by overusing their muscles.

hamishspence

2010-11-26, 04:58 AM

Oh, and btw, the problem with breaking exceptionally hard metal is NOT the strenght, but how much strenght your body can take without breaking itself. The human body can only take that much force bevore its bones give away... there are actually people who break their own bones by overusing their muscles.

Yup- that's why Obi-Wan's example was brought up- in the book, he's infuses The Force into his own body- strengthening his bones and his muscles, and thus, despite Grievous's metal arms being stronger than human bone, and servomotors being significantly stronger than human muscles, Obi-Wan wins when the two arms meet.

The point being, that with The Force, Jedi or Sith can mimic some of the self-boosts (like Might of the Ancients) available to Librarians.

EvilSun

2010-11-26, 05:41 AM

The point being, that with The Force, Jedi or Sith can mimic some of the self-boosts (like Might of the Ancients) available to Librarians.

well, the question arising from this is simple then: at which level do SM/Librarians start at the first place? Their bones are reinforced physically, they have different muscle structure compared to normal humans - they are much, much , much stronger, to the point of them not being human by any definition. And with selfbuffs, these things are even further enhanced.. they should still be at a signigicant higher level with their buffs compared to jedi/sith with buffs.

hamishspence

2010-11-26, 05:48 AM

Yes.

The point to be made is- with no armour, and no offensive powers, only self-buffs, a Librarian is still way ahead of a Sith with only self buffs.

With offensive powers, its harder to resolve, since both have pretty nasty powers at their disposal.

Selrahc

2010-11-26, 06:22 AM

I know that... however, Inquisitors are still baseline Humans and as such are at least in the grasp of Sith Lords, which was actually my point -yes, there are Inquisitors around with a few hundred years on their back, and yes, they ought to have more refined powers than younger ones.

But there are few inquisitors, and even fewer that live that long.

Oh I don't know... I think Inquisitors have a fairly low fatality rate. When they become an Inquisitor it's pretty much a given that they will have been a valued and powerful henchman for a long time. Dark Heresy:Ascension talks about the kind of people considered to become Inquisitors, and they're insanely experienced beings likely to have spent more than a hundred years in difficult and dangerous service at the top of their profession before being given the Inquisitorial Rosette. Those kind of people do not make fatal mistakes lightly, even with the stakes they play at.

Rejuve treatments are also fairly widely available. Any noble worth their salt can easily afford to keep themselves under rejuve. Even the aspirant upper middle classes of the hives can afford the occasional rejuve, although not often enough to have much more than a cosmetic effect.

Destro_Yersul

2010-11-26, 10:41 AM

Durability might play a part- with the Imperium capital ships (being more massive, and possibly more numerous) being able to take more of a beating than the Galactic Empire ships, but less able to accelerate quickly or turn sharply.

The imperium also tends to fire bigger stuff- how big a boom would a proton torpedo or concussion missile from a Star Destroyer be, compared to that of a hundred metre long plasma torpedo?

And that, that one reason, is why I give this one to the Imperium of man.

The Imperial-1 class star destroyer, the Mainstay of the Imperial fleet, would be considered an escort ship by the Imperium. And as far as ground engagements go...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070209142945/starwars/images/thumb/8/8f/ATAT-CHRON.jpg/250px-ATAT-CHRON.jpg

This is an AT-AT. It is one of the largest ground vehicles fielded by the galactic Empire. It is 22.5 meters tall, and boasts impressive armour and troop carrying capability, as well as two heavy laser cannons and a pair of repeating blasters.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f149/Nyrath/kev_walker_imperius_dictatio.jpg

This is a Warlord Titan. It is one of the most widely employed and numerous classes of titan. It is, based on the sources I could find, at least 33 meters tall, possibly quite a bit taller. It has two pairs of Turbo Lasers, one mega cannon, and a volcano cannon. The Volcano cannon is primarily used for destroying heavy ground targets, such as tanks, other titans, and small cities, in one shot.

EvilSun

2010-11-26, 12:17 PM

Rejuve treatments are also fairly widely available. Any noble worth their salt can easily afford to keep themselves under rejuve.

thats not correct. First of all, only a tiny, tiny portion of humanity has access to Rejuve treatments. Planetary gouvernors, high ranking members of the Administratum, Inquisitors - compared to the sheer number of humans in WH40k, thats 0,00000001 % of humanity... a TINY %age. To be noble does not mean someone has access to this kind of technology.

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-26, 12:59 PM

And that, that one reason, is why I give this one to the Imperium of man.

The Imperial-1 class star destroyer, the Mainstay of the Imperial fleet, would be considered an escort ship by the Imperium.
Conveniently, it's also considered one by the Galactic Empire. What's your point? :smalltongue:

Incidentally, just for fun, check this out (http://www.babtech-onthe.net/stargate/atlantis1.html). It's an analysis of the Replicator beam from Stargate, but it compares calculated firepower to many other sci-fi settings' ships for the purpose, and therefore has a wide array of firepower comparisons. Sadly, 40k isn't included (since there's no visual evidence to compare against), but a couple different ships from Star Wars are, including the ISD.

Selrahc

2010-11-26, 01:11 PM

thats not correct. First of all, only a tiny, tiny portion of humanity has access to Rejuve treatments. Planetary gouvernors, high ranking members of the Administratum, Inquisitors - compared to the sheer number of humans in WH40k, thats 0,00000001 % of humanity... a TINY %age. To be noble does not mean someone has access to this kind of technology.

What are you basing that on? I'm genuinely curious because I could well be wrong, but I remember some upper ranking guardsmen (colonel) being described as having had a touch of rejuve in a Ciaphas Caine book. It was talked about like a slightly more sought after cosmetic surgery rather than something that only the top of the nobility had.

In Dark Heresy there is also some discussion of rejuve, with some of the more effective means of life extension being discussed as rare and legendary. Rejuve itself was only mentioned in passing as less effective but a lot less risky.

EvilSun

2010-11-26, 01:30 PM

What are you basing that on? I'm genuinely curious because I could well be wrong, but I remember some upper ranking guardsmen (colonel) being described as having had a touch of rejuve in a Ciaphas Caine book. It was talked about like a slightly more sought after cosmetic surgery rather than something that only the top of the nobility had.

In which Cain novel was that? I remember Jurgen and Cain received it (and it was provided by Amberly Vail, book: Cains last Stand), and the Warmaster Cain played Rigicide with (cant remember the name), but I really can not remember a Colonel having acces to it.

Naturally its possible, however, it does not change anything about that treatment being rare - also, maybe it is worth to consider the possibility that "rejuve treatment" may refer to different things even within the WH40k universe... similar things happen all the time withing the WH40k lore, as example with the term "Arbites" , which is used in reference to wholly different organisations.

hamishspence

2010-11-26, 01:46 PM

Conveniently, it's also considered one by the Galactic Empire. What's your point? :smalltongue:

What makes it a "mainstay" is that it provides most of the combat power of the fleet. There may be a few bigger ships, which it will then escort, but most of the time, it's the heavy hitter.

Whereas in 40K, Cruisers are the heavy hitters in the ISD's role- with there being rather less grand cruisers and battleships.

On Galactic Empire tech- it's worth remembering that they can miniaturise superlasers to a surprising degree.

While the Eclipse class and Sovereign class Star Dreadnoughts apparently can only crack the crust of a planet with theirs, Wookieepedia suggests that on one occasion, they managed to fit a potentially planet-breaking superlaser, onto the hull of an Imperial-class Star Destroyer:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Conqueror_(superlaser)

Which is an impressive feat.

Talkkno

2010-11-27, 05:07 PM

Rejuve is cheap enough that a somewhat well off family doctor can afford(Eisenhorn)

EvilSun

2010-11-28, 02:46 AM

Rejuve is cheap enough that a somewhat well off family doctor can afford(Eisenhorn)
I think we can agree to not agree on the matter of Rejuve - treatments. There is fluff supporting only the most powerful individuals have access to the "real" thing (which actually extend live) and there are sources suggesting that "well off" people have access to it - though it IS notable that the effects of rejuve treatments are described differently, so I think its not too far off to suggest that there is a wide variety of treatments that fall under the category "rejuve - treatment"....

Darth Hunterix

2010-11-28, 07:28 AM

Well, there is one important flow about the whole idea of this thread. The GE was at supposed to fit into three movies, created between 1977 and 1983, with huge but still limited budget and awesome but still limited technology. Also it had to fit a certain plot: a handful of good rebels, who can barely make ends meet, poke the Big Evil Empire to death. Also the SW movies and Expanded Universe books had to make a certain profit.

What's my point, you may ask?

My point is that it wasn't the GE which didn't have the technology or resources to create their equivalent of Space Marines, Baneblades, etc. It was George Lucas who didn't have the technology and resources to give the Empire such stuff in ANH, and after ANH strormtroopers bacame so important symbol of the Empire, that replacing them would be a suicide, because fans would pay for tickets/book/games. Also if the Empire would get really good stuff, Lucas would have to employ diffrent set of actors, for example:

Luke - Arnold Schwarzenegger
Han - Sylvester Stallone
Leia - Chuck Norris
C-3PO - Clint Eastwood
R2-D2 - Jean-Claude van Damme
Chewbacca - Steven Seagal
Obi-Wan - David Carradine
Yoda - "Hulk" Hogan

Then, the Rebels would stand a chance.
But since Lucas did what he did, the Empire didn't have as much firepower as it could.

So when we discuss the "vs" scenario we have to consider the factor "how much time does Palpatine need to realize, that he need something bigger than AT-AT and build it?". My answer is: not a lot.

Also it raises another question: how much it would time it would take the IoM to steal Hyperdrive technology and get the Warp replaced? My answer: even less, since it is not some super top secret stuff.

TSGames

2010-11-28, 10:58 AM

Also if the Empire would get really good stuff, Lucas would have to employ diffrent set of actors, for example:

Luke - Arnold Schwarzenegger
Han - Sylvester Stallone
Leia - Chuck Norris
C-3PO - Clint Eastwood
R2-D2 - Jean-Claude van Damme
Chewbacca - Steven Seagal
Obi-Wan - David Carradine
Yoda - "Hulk" Hogan
Lando Calrissian - Samuel Jackson

OK. The movies would have been so much better with this list of actors.

V'icternus

2010-11-28, 12:56 PM

OK. The movies would have been so much better with this list of actors.

...You cannot be serious.
Please tell me you're not serious. :smalltongue:

Darth Hunterix

2010-11-28, 02:44 PM

OK. The movies would have been so much better with this list of actors.

Samuel L. Jackson as Lando? Nah, I would rather give his part to Mr. T.

TSGames

2010-11-28, 03:36 PM

Samuel L. Jackson as Lando? Nah, I would rather give his part to Mr. T.
I just figured that maybe he was tired of these mother****ing stormtroopers on this mother****ing Deathstar.

Mr. T would be a good choice too: "I pity da fool that mess with Lando!"

[EDIT]
Also, Vincent Price could have been one badass emperor.

Irbis

2010-11-28, 05:09 PM

Also it raises another question: how much it would time it would take the IoM to steal Hyperdrive technology and get the Warp replaced? My answer: even less, since it is not some super top secret stuff.

Correct answer: 3000 years. Out of which, 1.800 years would have been spent by Mechanicus dividing itself in two halves trying to kill each other because/in spite of non-STC heresy. Further 600 years would have been wasted on pointless debate, chanting, and bribing the hyperdrive with incense smoke, then production run of six units would have been assembled using last 598 years (manufactured by hand by Magos Verylazus) - out of which five units would have been stolen appropriated by Inquisitor Baztardus, while the last one would have been dropped on the floor by Novitiate Carlessus. This unit would have been then installed in the largest battleship ever assembled (using part of these 598 years), which would have then detonate vanish in the hyperspace, taking 56 Space Marine Chapters and 123 Titan Legions with it :P

cdstephens

2010-11-29, 01:37 AM

This is more of a WAR canon question I guess, but are Space Marines considered part of the Imperium? The Sisters of Battle?

The only knowledge I know of WAR comes from wikis and from playing Dawn of War.

EvilSun

2010-11-29, 03:56 AM

This is more of a WAR canon question I guess, but are Space Marines considered part of the Imperium? The Sisters of Battle?

Ouch :smalleek:

Its "Warhammer 40 000" or "WH40k", not "WAR".

First of all you have to think about what the "Imperium of Man" is... and that is difficult. It is not a homegnous body compareable to the current system of national countries. The IoM as such is composed of 2 big parts: the Empire and the Mechanicum, which declared allegiance to the Emperor at the very beginning of the Great Crusade (some 10 000 years ago in WH40k lore). Both of them form the IoM.

When you look at the political organisation of the IoM it really gets interesting. The High Lords of Terra (composed of the leading members of the most important factions in the IoM) are a council that dictates the general way of the IoM. Also, for massive singular actions (such as a Crusade) the approval of the High Lords is needed (in fact, only they can launch such a massive endeavor).

The ressources the IoM runs on come from tithes of the single imperial planets, which - up to a point - are largely independent and autonomous from the IoM... as long as they "give the Emperor what is the Emperors", do the obligatory witchhunt (sniffing out psychers and either killing them or handing them over to the black ships). As long as things work, the Imperium has no interest in interfering with local (planetary) politics.

The primary purpose of the IoM is the defence of the human race against inner (psychers, heretics) and external (alien races, chaos) threats. So, most of its ressources are bound to be assigned to one of the military branches of the IoM, most notably the Navy and that Imperial Army, which are immensely massive organisations themselves. These are the primary military forces of the IoM... however, there are many others as well.

To come back to the mechanicus, they are essentially an independent organisation supporting the IoM (their Fabricator General is one of the High Lords), which has its own troops to support the imperial (and their own) cause - the famous Titan Legions (though they are not directly under control of the Machanicus), their Skiitari armys and other more specialised troops, along with an own Navy (Explorer and Fabricator ships). Beside that, naturally, their Forgeworlds produce most of the machinery in the IoM - from simple vehicles to the most complex and deadly Battleship.

Now, you asked about the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines. They are unique, because they only answer directly to the Emperor himself. During the Crusade, the Astartes chain of command was something like: Emperor - Primarch - Astartes. The civilian gouverment (High Lords of Terra) never had any control of them, even after the Emperor left the daily politics to them and the war to his Primarchs.

This was NEVER changed. After the Horus Heresy, the massive Astartes Legions were split into the Chapters of a 1000 fighting Marines each we have today, and every single of these chapters remained independent from the Imperial officials. Naturally they fight for the IoM, but they do so at their own will and in their own way... which can lead to frictions with Imperial branches from time to time. And at other times Space Marines take command of vast armys of Imperial Forces (Like Magneus Calgar at the defence of Ultramar or Logan Grimnar at Armageddon), although only for a certain amount of time and under special circumstances.

The Adeptus Soroitas is the armed arm of the Imperial Church and as such is more closely knit to the official IoM than the Astartes (The Ecclesiarch is one of the High Lords), although they are no "official" branch of the IoM.

Darth Hunterix

2010-11-29, 05:06 AM

Also, Vincent Price could have been one badass emperor.

There can be only one Emperor when we talk about the list above:

(Zzzzzap!) It's not personal, young Skywalker. (Zzzzzap!) It's strictly business. (Zzzzzap!)
______

Correct answer: 3000 years. Out of which, 1.800 years would have been spent by Mechanicus dividing itself in two halves trying to kill each other because/in spite of non-STC heresy. Further 600 years would have been wasted on pointless debate, chanting, and bribing the hyperdrive with incense smoke, then production run of six units would have been assembled using last 598 years (manufactured by hand by Magos Verylazus) - out of which five units would have been stolen appropriated by Inquisitor Baztardus, while the last one would have been dropped on the floor by Novitiate Carlessus. This unit would have been then installed in the largest battleship ever assembled (using part of these 598 years), which would have then detonate vanish in the hyperspace, taking 56 Space Marine Chapters and 123 Titan Legions with it :P

I think of the IoM would get the chance to replace warp travel by hyperspace travel the God-Emperor himself would leave his tomb and start singing and dancing out of pure joy and giving warm hugs to random people. That may be a considerable factor.

Brother Oni

2010-11-29, 07:36 AM

Snip information on the political makeup of the Imperium

So where does the Inquisition fit into the grand scheme of things?

Also, who's in charge of marine recruitment worlds? I know most of them are virtually feral worlds with no unifing government, but some chapters recruit from more advanced worlds, for example the Imperial Fists recruit from the hive world Necromunda, if I recall correctly. I can't really see a planetary governor saying 'no' to a Chapter Master when his recruiter sergeants come along to sift, pick and test the best male children to join the Astartes.

There's a great example of friction between the SMs and local government in Dawn of War 2 where the Blood Ravens try to use Angel's Gate manufacturing facilities only to run into bureaucracy issues.

Dark Crusade and Soulstorm have the Marines and IG fighting each other, emphasising the separate agenda of the marines.

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 07:50 AM

I think of the IoM would get the chance to replace warp travel by hyperspace travel the God-Emperor himself would leave his tomb and start singing and dancing out of pure joy and giving warm hugs to random people. That may be a considerable factor.

Also, the fact that the Galactic Empire is mostly human, might be a factor in deciding whether or not to import their tech.

That said, the Imperium is pragmatic enough to use alien tech under certain circumstances. The Deathwatch fortresses are full of alien superweapons, and the Mars class battlecruiser Imperious (from BFG) is fitted with an alien-built targeting system.

EvilSun

2010-11-29, 08:01 AM

So where does the Inquisition fit into the grand scheme of things?
Fluff of the Inquisition is undergoing some rewriting with the HH novels, as it stands atm, they were brought to live by the Emperor (or Malcador) to sniff out heretics, alien infiltration and other nasty things. They have the highest authority (both from the Emperor himself and by the fact that they have a seat among the high lords) and act independent from other branches of the Imperium, which they can call to arms at their will anytime to do their bidding.

Also, who's in charge of marine recruitment worlds? I know most of them are virtually feral worlds with no unifing government, but some chapters recruit from more advanced worlds, for example the Imperial Fists recruit from the hive world Necromunda, if I recall correctly. I can't really see a planetary governor saying 'no' to a Chapter Master when his recruiter sergeants come along to sift, pick and test the best male children to join the Astartes.
As I mentioned bevore, the Astartes chapters are independent - not only politically but also economically. They have their own forges and shipyards and are basically self substaining - only things like Navigators and Astropaths are from "outside". Some of them even "rule" .. or more likely "protect" their own areas of space, most famous for this are the Ultramarines who basically control a small Empire on their own ("Ultramar", a model society, pretty utopian) or the Space Wolfes, who have sworn to defend a certain area of space close to their Howorld of Fenris (though they do not rule it the way the Ultramarines do).

Many Chapters have their own homeworld, recruiting exklusively from those worlds (which also happen to be death worlds usually, to provide a strong stock of potential recruits), other chapters have mobile bases (such as the Phalanx of the Imperial Fists), who have a few recruiting worlds from which they draw initiates.

Most of those chapters recruit at the same places for almost 10 millenia, so even if its a planet like Necromunda, no one will suddenly tell them they are not allowed to recruit anymore - for various reasons. First of all, they are Space Marines. To the general populance, they are the Angels of Death of the Emperor, and you do not say "no" to an angel. Secondly, telling a brotherhood of century old superhuman warriors to f*** off takes some serious guts. Thirdly, the Chapters usually protect their recruiting grounds from any threat from outside, so its actually a good buisness for both sides.

There's a great example of friction between the SMs and local government in Dawn of War 2 where the Blood Ravens try to use Angel's Gate manufacturing facilities only to run into bureaucracy issues.

Dark Crusade and Soulstorm have the Marines and IG fighting each other, emphasising the separate agenda of the marines.
Forget DoW2 and DoW - they are not fluff. The reason the Imperial Factions fight each other is to explain why 1 player can take IG and the other SM and still fight each other. Forget it.

In WH40k fluff such things do indeed happen, but not often... actually they are really really rare. Any chapter that would engage other imperial factions the way the blood ravends did in the DoW games would have been declared Excomminite Traitoris (I think i screwed up the spelling in that one lol) long ago.

Drascin

2010-11-29, 08:07 AM

Also, the fact that the Galactic Empire is mostly human, might be a factor in deciding whether or not to import their tech.

That said, the Imperium is pragmatic enough to use alien tech under certain circumstances. The Deathwatch fortresses are full of alien superweapons, and the Mars class battlecruiser Imperious (from BFG) is fitted with an alien-built targeting system.

Generally, people do use alien tech, hoping really hard that no Inquisitor happens to pass by - the Imperium is huge, the chance of stepping across an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle is low, and alien tech gives instant benefits. Because if any of those happens to pass by, whoever used, touched, suggested, or even looked too intently at the alien tech is going to be burned to a crisp.

Sisters aren't really the most pragmatic people around, no :smalltongue:.

Fan

2010-11-29, 08:43 AM

On the note of Space Marines V.S. The Storm Troopers, and such.. as much as this is beating a Dead Horse I would like to cite this in favor of even a regular squadrons skill, in realms of team work, and compatibility.

Rafen returned the nod and emerged from his cover, low to the
ground and swift. He did not pause to check if Brother Alactus was
following him; there was no need. As Alactus followed Rafen, so
Brother Turcio followed Alactus, and Brother Bennek followed him.
The team of Space Marines had drilled and fought alongside each
other for so many decades that they functioned as pieces of the same
machine, each a finely-tooled cog linked to the other, operating in
perfect unison. To move now in silence, without a single spoken
word between them, was child’s play for soldiers who had trained to
fight under the most testing conditions

This here means that these men have trained enough, and have skill enough to know each other by the weight of their footfalls, and the order in which they appear, this puts them so many tiers above even an Emperor's Hand in SW that it's just silly. They can learn the lay of the land without satellite support in intimate ways instantly by consuming wildlife, and Scout Marines have been known to spend months behind enemy lines undetected.

If it came down to a Scout Marine V.S. Mara Jade, I'd put my money on the scout marine. Even in an assassination contest (Which by the way, Space Marines aren't trained for. If you want Assassins look for a Death Cultist in the service of an Inquisitor.) due to his superior natural abilities, and basic guerilla warfare training.

Another thing of note, while it is true that the GE has an impresssive navy, they do lack in quantity of batteries in comparison to an IoM ship which is very nearly made of guns, and each is quite a bit more powerful than an ISD.. and that's a regular Emperor class. Emperor forbid we bring in one of the Battle Barges which has a similar shape to a Super ISD, and carries enough firepower to break down orbital platforms while also carrying up to thousands of interceptor craft, and still allowing for space for up to 3 (!) companies to board, and have space for drop pods, weapons crews, etc. In fact, it is so large, that the Vengeful Spirit (Of the Luna Wolves.) had the core of it's ship entirely deserted while still allowing for the rest of it to operate with a full crew, and staffing with no known issues in functionality.

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 08:52 AM

Generally, people do use alien tech, hoping really hard that no Inquisitor happens to pass by - the Imperium is huge, the chance of stepping across an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle is low, and alien tech gives instant benefits.

A lot of the time, it will be the Inquisitor (or the Deathwatch) using the tech anyway.

"We're Them. We're They. We are the Marines In Black" :smallamused:

Eldan

2010-11-29, 08:57 AM

For government: Lexicanum gives these as the high lords:

* The Master of the Administratum (General administration and bureaucacy)
* The Inquisitorial Representativea (Highest Inquisitor)
* The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum (The official state church. They also control the sisters)
* The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus (The mechanicus of mars controls the factories, the technicians and it's own military forces, the Skitarii and the Titan legions. They are technically not part of the Imperium, but allied to it, as the Emperor didn't officially conquer Mars.)
* The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites (They enforce Imperial Law)
* The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators (Special mutants able to navigate the warp)
* The Master of the Astronomican (The Astronomican guides ships through the warp)
* The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum (Imperial assassins)
* The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica (Astropaths, to send messages through the warp)

The remaining three positions are most likely to be filled from among the following powerful leaders:

* Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar
* Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard
* Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra
* The Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas
* Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes
* Chancellor of the Estate Imperium
* The Speaker for the Chartist Captains

Drascin

2010-11-29, 09:00 AM

A lot of the time, it will be the Inquisitor (or the Deathwatch) using the tech anyway.

"We're Them. We're They. We are the Marines In Black" :smallamused:

Well of course. Hypocrisy and self-justfying for yourself what you kill other people for doing are among the basic courses an Inquisitor takes. After all, you're so much more smarter and resistant to corruption than them, aren't you? You can endure the horrible xenos filth without being corrupted, but they can't, because they're not you and are therefore less awesome :smallwink:.

It's one of the reasons one of the leading causes of Inquisitor death, especially Radical inquisitors, are in fact other Inquisitors :smallbiggrin:.

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 09:01 AM

For government: Lexicanum gives these as the high lords:

Sounds about right- from 2nd ed Codex Imperialis. I'm not sure if the list has been changed since then, but I doubt it.

Destro_Yersul

2010-11-29, 09:02 AM

Forget DoW2 and DoW - they are not fluff. The reason the Imperial Factions fight each other is to explain why 1 player can take IG and the other SM and still fight each other. Forget it.

In WH40k fluff such things do indeed happen, but not often... actually they are really really rare. Any chapter that would engage other imperial factions the way the blood ravends did in the DoW games would have been declared Excomminite Traitoris (I think i screwed up the spelling in that one lol) long ago.

In DoW 1, Maybe. Not DoW 2. You obviously haven't played the game, so I'll explain the campaign (simplified). Spoilered for obvious spoilers:

The Blood Ravens fight off Orks, Eldar, and Tyranids attacking their recruiting worlds. They do this by being badass and also running through loads of ammo. The event that was mentioned is when a planetary governor refused them the use of a large Manufactorum because A: He didn't realise the extent of the threat, and B: He was a heretic anyways.

He subsequently ran away.

At no point during DoW2 do the Blood Ravens engage Imperial troops.

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 09:03 AM

It's one of the reasons one of the leading causes of Inquisitor death, especially Radical inquisitors, are in fact other Inquisitors :smallbiggrin:.

Going by Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, you don't even need to be a Radical to make use of some Sanctioned Aliens, or certain Alien Tech.

Callidus Assassins with their C'tan Phase Knives spring to mind.

Radical Ordo Xenos will be the ones using more exotic and more dangerous stuff.

Eldan

2010-11-29, 09:06 AM

The books have sanctioned aliens? Which ones?

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 09:07 AM

Into The Storm- Rogue Trader splatbook.

You can have a Kroot, or an Ork, as a Sanctioned Alien.

Eldan

2010-11-29, 09:13 AM

Orks. Huh. I'd have expected Kroot, but orks... I mean, I heard that they can be (ab)used as mercenaries, but it just sounds like a stupid idea.

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 09:19 AM

Some Orks (Freebooterz) are happy to hire themselves out.

It would be a pretty broadminded Rogue Trader who made use of them though.

My guess is they wanted something easy to recognize. I think, just as Shaper is the advanced class for Kroot, Mekboy is the advanced class for Ork.

As for Kroot, in the Kal Jerico Necromunda comic, Inquisitor Helena Jerico has a Kroot in her party.

EvilSun

2010-11-29, 10:27 AM

In DoW 1, Maybe. Not DoW 2. You obviously haven't played the game, so I'll explain the campaign (simplified). Spoilered for obvious spoilers:

I have played DoW 2. Point is: DoW and DoW 2 just are not canon.

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 10:31 AM

They do have their own novels though. Maybe the novels are "more canonical" than the games?

The Blood Ravens got their own Index Astartes article in White Dwarf.

On "Imperium reverse-engineering alien tech"- there is a stealth field in Deathwatch that was built by reverse-engineering Tau tech, rather than being simply a captured Tau stealth generator.

So, the Imperium are capable of doing it.

comicshorse

2010-11-29, 11:35 AM

* The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites (They enforce Imperial Law)

* Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes

Something I've never been sure of. What is the difference between these two orginizations ?

hamishspence

2010-11-29, 11:39 AM

Adeptus Custodes are, officially, the Emperor's bodyguards. Besides a core of 300 who guard the Emperor himself, there's a larger group that do a lot of investigating of issues on Terra.

The Arbites operate across the whole galaxy, and are more focused on maintaining Imperial Law.

EDIT: Useful note- they tend to deal with more serious cases, typically on more major planets. "Local law enforcement" can be dealt with using the planet's own enforcement agencies.

EvilSun

2010-11-29, 03:08 PM

They do have their own novels though. Maybe the novels are "more canonical" than the games?

to a degree, yes. DoW and its addons as example have different endings for every race while the novels - naturally - only have one ending.

However, there are quite a few novels and authors that are famous for screwing up big time when writting for BL, as example C.S. Goto - not everything written in novels goes with the fluff.

The Blood Ravens got their own Index Astartes article in White Dwarf.
The Blood Ravens may become canon by being set in WD, but that does not account for the Games.

Selrahc

2010-11-29, 03:57 PM

The Adeptus Arbites serve the purpose of central oversight. Their job is to uphold civic order on the planet they are assigned to, basically acting as super cops. Their job consists of both propping up local government in times of crisis as well as removing those same authorities if they start to develop unimperial ideas. Or grow tentacles.

The members of the Arbites are drawn from the Schola Progenium orphanages and are trained heavily before being assigned a planet. They're one of the more competent branches of Imperium government. 99% of their time will be spent acting like a sort of super swat team/detective agency, hunting down nascent cults and other problems that local law enforcement wouldn't perhaps be equipped to handle. Their detached status and central oversight means that they almost never fall prey to heretical thought, and indeed are often the last bastions of resistance if a planet falls to heresy.

They have equipment far beyond the local forces, with riot tanks, hellguns, homing shotguns, plasma cannons, cybernetic pets and carapace armour. They have the ability to act completely outside of the local justice system. They're all shadowy offworlders and spend all their free time locked up in a heavily armoured fortress. That means that they aren't the most popular imperial institution. In a pinch though you'd be glad to have them on your side. The local Arbites controller is often one of the more influential men on any given planet.

The poster child of the Arbites is Judge Dredd.

The Adeptus Custodes on the other hand are the personal guard of the emperor. An institution that is tiny in manpower, it nonetheless has extreme influence both due to its privileged position in serving the emperor directly and the fact that every one of its members are hyper competent demigods.

Knaight

2010-11-29, 03:59 PM

I mean, the main problem and feature of the Wh40k is the warp - source of power, predations, corruptions and ftl flight. The whole universe is built around it... if we compare 2 different universes we have to give the scenario some basic abilities both sides have... else its ALWAYS the faction winning who has the highest mobility described ^^. Which just gets boring tbh.

The Space Pirates vs. CIS argument is going on largely because its been more or less agreed that numbers can deal with superior mobility. But yes, its usually what determines who wins in these fights.

Renegade Paladin

2010-11-30, 08:59 AM

For government: Lexicanum gives these as the high lords:

<snip list>
I was under the impression the Grand Master of the Grey Knights held a seat, at least part of the time.

cdstephens

2010-12-03, 02:25 AM

How about we settle this the old fashioned way.

EMPEROR VS. EMPEROR.

http://local-static3.forum-files.fobby.net/forum_attachments/0021/6078/The_God_Emperor.jpg

vs.

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/09/images/02emperor350.jpg

EvilSun

2010-12-03, 02:31 AM

How about we settle this the old fashioned way.

EMPEROR VS. EMPEROR.

unfair matchup. :smalleek:

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 03:46 AM

One guy's capable of channelling a blast more powerful than an exploding star, the other can create Hyperspace Wormholes capable of eating a fleet.

Clone Palpatine vs Pre-Heresy Emperor- is that an unfair matchup?
How about Darth Sidious vs P.E. Emperor?

Selrahc

2010-12-03, 05:34 AM

In terms of flashy army destroying powers God-Emperor and Clone Palpatine are probably roughly equal. Unfortunately for Palpatine he is then bested pretty heavily when it comes to one on one powers. GE could shield himself from everything Palpatine could throw at him in one on one combat, while I'm not sure Palpatine has the brain defences required to keep the GE from mushing his brain into Palpatine pulp. Even if Palpatine and the Emperor are capable of fully defending themselves from each others powers then that just shifts it into the physical arena where Palpatine really doesn't stand a chance.

Irbis

2010-12-03, 05:42 AM

Palpatine: *poke*
IoM on Golden Toilet: *dies*

So there :P

As for physical match-up... One word: Lightsabers. Well, and the fact Palpatine is unkillable and wins by sheer attrition.

EvilSun

2010-12-03, 06:37 AM

Clone Palpatine vs Pre-Heresy Emperor- is that an unfair matchup?
You mean: Is it unfair to matchup a human with some fancy powers against a 40 millenia old being who is powerful enough to challenge 4 warp gods at the same time, who was able to unleash a blast more powerful than a supernova that did not only kill the physical form but also the soul of a demi-god backed up by the 4 prime warp powers... AFTER his spine was broken, his throat ripped out and several other uncomfortable things?

seriously?

Palpatine: *poke*
IoM on Golden Toilet: *dies*
even in his immobiliced state on the golden thrown the Empy created a warp storm that engulfed several lightyears and destroyed a whole battlefleet.

As for physical match-up... One word: Lightsabers. Well, and the fact Palpatine is unkillable and wins by sheer attrition.
lol? I mean, its not like they did not have lightsabers in WH40k... and the Empy is a GOD in Wh40k. Not to mention he is immortal... even if his last few cells on the Golden Throne die, he is still a warp god - who can resurrect.

I mean seriously, we are comparing a GOD with a mere human.

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 06:40 AM

even in his immobiliced state on the golden thrown the Empy created a warp storm that engulfed several lightyears and destroyed a whole battlefleet.

Doesn't the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath count as "things the Emperor is credited with" rather than "things the Emperor is actually proven to have done"?

EvilSun

2010-12-03, 06:43 AM

Doesn't the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath count as "things the Emperor is credited with" rather than "things the Emperor is actually proven to have done"?
Since the empy does not speak that often anymore its hard to say. The odds of a warp storm randomly occuring and destroying the right fleet (2 fleets on the way to battle) are not that big - especially considering a Saint (Thor) was involved in all this.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-03, 06:55 AM

You mean: Is it unfair to matchup a human with some fancy powers against a 40 millenia old being who is powerful enough to challenge 4 warp gods at the same time, who was able to unleash a blast more powerful than a supernova that did not only kill the physical form but also the soul of a demi-god backed up by the 4 prime warp powers... AFTER his spine was broken, his throat ripped out and several other uncomfortable things?
I fail to believe that the Emperor's slaying of Horus was more powerful than a supernova, for one simple reason: Terra exists in the 41st millennium. Therefore, a supernova-powered blast did not happen in low orbit over the planet at any point in its history, owing to the fact that such an event would end the planet's history when it happened.

Eldan

2010-12-03, 06:57 AM

That very, very much sounds like embellishment, yeah. From a SciFi writer with no real concept of the energies involved.

Jan Mattys

2010-12-03, 06:59 AM

I fail to believe that the Emperor's slaying of Horus was more powerful than a supernova, for one simple reason: Terra exists in the 41st millennium. Therefore, a supernova-powered blast did not happen in low orbit over the planet at any point in its history, owing to the fact that such an event would end the planet's history when it happened.

And your point is?
Let's face it: if your target is a human being, as overpowered as they come, (Palpatine, or Horus, you name it) it doesn't really matter if you unleash the power of a supernova or the power of a mere 20 megatons.

At point blank, instant disintegration happens anyway.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-03, 07:05 AM

Palpatine: *poke*
IoM on Golden Toilet: *dies*

So there :P

As for physical match-up... One word: Lightsabers. Well, and the fact Palpatine is unkillable and wins by sheer attrition.

Palpatine is killable, he just has clones. As for the lightsabers....in 40K, remember that 'lightsabers' are a standard upgrade for squad leaders in about half the armies out there, and it's trivial to get force fields that block them. Real badass warriors get lightsaber-chainsaw-gloves.

EvilSun

2010-12-03, 07:07 AM

I fail to believe that the Emperor's slaying of Horus was more powerful than a supernova, for one simple reason: Terra exists in the 41st millennium. Therefore, a supernova-powered blast did not happen in low orbit over the planet at any point in its history, owing to the fact that such an event would end the planet's history when it happened.

lol, first of all, are you really attemting to debate on fluff on a fictional universe? secondly, the battle between horus and the Emperor did not only take place in the physical world, so such a blast is entirely possible.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-03, 07:25 AM

lol, first of all, are you really attemting to debate on fluff on a fictional universe? secondly, the battle between horus and the Emperor did not only take place in the physical world, so such a blast is entirely possible.
No, I'm not "attemting" to debate on fluff, whatever that is. You, sir, made the claim, not I; calling foul when asked to account for it is laughable. You said that a blast equivalent to a supernova happened on board a ship in low Earth orbit. Earth still exists, which is major evidence against the statement. Do you plan to actually try to back up what you say, or should I just accept your concession now?

Irbis

2010-12-03, 07:26 AM

powerful enough to challenge 4 warp gods at the same time

That are so powerful that can be foiled by normal humans. Or by simple warp-ward. Next.

who was able to unleash a blast more powerful than a supernova

Proof, please.

that did not only kill the physical form but also the soul of a demi-god

Sith Lords eat souls of other beings, even Jedi Masters, for breakfast. Next.

AFTER his spine was broken, his throat ripped out and several other uncomfortable things?

Well, since after losing 5 wounds out of 6 gives you no ill effects in WH40K, he just had Eternal Warrior :P

seriously?

Ya Rly.

even in his immobiliced state on the golden thrown the Empy created a warp storm that engulfed several lightyears and destroyed a whole battlefleet.

Is gossiped to do that. Me3anwhile, Palpatine created actual storms killing fleets on the other end of the Galaxy, storms precise enough to whisk one human from destroyed fleet and teleport him to the other end of the galaxy. This far outweighs anything EoM ever did.

lol? I mean, its not like they did not have lightsabers in WH40k...

Where? :smallamused:

even if his last few cells on the Golden Throne die, he is still a warp god - who can resurrect.

Which is why Tzeenth created a sect saying precisely that and tried to kill him. Said sect was burninated. Yeah, right :smallamused:

I mean seriously, we are comparing a GOD with a mere human.

Yes, that would be accurate description of a Sith Lord vs a mere shaman :P

Palpatine is killable, he just has clones.

NOT killable. No one was able to do that, all they managed to do was to sacrifice a Jedi Master who dragged Palpatine to a place where other dead Jedi Masters gather, to try to trap him there. He is, unlike EoM, for all intents and purposes immortal.

As for the lightsabers....in 40K, remember that 'lightsabers' are a standard upgrade for squad leaders in about half the armies out there, and it's trivial to get force fields that block them.

What. Power Sword is just a piece of metal with a fancy field over it. It's not even vibrosword. Such tech was old news during Jedi Schism, 7.000 years before Palpatine. Even for Naga Sadow it was antique weapon. Lightsaber would cleave it like a twig.

Even if we assume PS would be immune, it is still a lump of metal much slower than a lightsaber, which means once they meet lighsaber slices along the blade to hack the hand off the wrist while power sword user tries to move his much slower weapon.

Real badass warriors get lightsaber-chainsaw-gloves.

Which, sadly, are of use only against vehicles, being as slow as frozen turtle :smalltongue:

lol, first of all, are you really attemting to debate on fluff on a fictional universe?

Gee, I wonder what you were doing, then?

secondly, the battle between horus and the Emperor did not only take place in the physical world, so such a blast is entirely possible.

Since warp travel near Terra is still possible, we'll dismiss that claim as well.

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 07:51 AM

I've tracked it down:

Battle For The Palace (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9065687&postcount=975)

"More coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun" was the phrase used- but that may be artistic license.

What. Power Sword is just a piece of metal with a fancy field over it. It's not even vibrosword. Such tech was old news during Jedi Schism, 7.000 years before Palpatine. Even for Naga Sadow it was antique weapon. Lightsaber would cleave it like a twig.

Even if we assume PS would be immune, it is still a lump of metal much slower than a lightsaber, which means once they meet lighsaber slices along the blade to hack the hand off the wrist while power sword user tries to move his much slower weapon.

In Eisenhorn (Xenos novel) the Inquisitor wields a power sword which has no blade, just the hilt projecting the field- it's slightly more sophisticated than the standard power sword, but otherwise works the same way- and has the same effect on armour.

EvilSun

2010-12-03, 08:17 AM

That are so powerful that can be foiled by normal humans. Or by simple warp-ward. Next.
in the material universe. next.

Proof, please.
see one post above me. Its official fluff.... next.

Sith Lords eat souls of other beings, even Jedi Masters, for breakfast. Next.
SW souls are not compareable to WH40k souls - in WH40k, every being has a physical form (body), life force ("spirit", the tnig C´tan want to snack on) and a soul (warp essence). SW souls are more like WH40k "life force" than Wh40 souls. next.

Is gossiped to do that. Me3anwhile, Palpatine created actual storms killing fleets on the other end of the Galaxy, storms precise enough to whisk one human from destroyed fleet and teleport him to the other end of the galaxy. This far outweighs anything EoM ever did.
Well, palpy is dead, the empy is not. which kind of makes your argument strange lol. next.

Where?
Necromunda has them, they appear in Eisenhorn too... check some armoury, they are there. next.

NOT killable. No one was able to do that, all they managed to do was to sacrifice a Jedi Master who dragged Palpatine to a place where other dead Jedi Masters gather, to try to trap him there. He is, unlike EoM, for all intents and purposes immortal.
He is a hundred year old pup compared to a 50 millenia old god. next.

Since warp travel near Terra is still possible, we'll dismiss that claim as well.
fluff writes it, fluff > you, you loose. simple as that. I am not debating how ridicilous it is for a hundred year old Sith Master do open a force storm who transports things across the galaxy - yet you do debate how ridicilous it is for a 50 millenia old human god to unleash "the power of an exploding star" in the physical realm and a fictional dimension in the WH40k universe? You got to be kidding me :smalleek:

Fan

2010-12-03, 08:32 AM

Yeah.. The GEoM is way more powerful than Palpatine even setting aside those totally uncannon EU stories that even George Lucas says aren't canon. (He also denies the Star Wars Christmas Special.. but that's a different story.)

Now, in straight up physical combat? The Emperor is laughable at best, his body simply is naturally as strong as GEoM, I mean.. I shouldn't even have to explain how a withered decrepit old man who can barely move at anything faster than a walking pace outside of force aided movement loses in such a confrontation. The God Emperor can go hand to hand with Ork's (omitting one War Boss, who.. well. Had the backing of an Ork WAAAAGH! large enough to draw both Horus, and the Emperor to confront it personally. That's a confrontation which makes Geonosis look like a bully in the kiddy pool picking on the other kids by poking them kinda hard.)

Then we have the sheer difference in the weaponry they employ, all lightsabers come in one form of "A really long welding torch that can deflect lasers", whereas the Power Sword that the GoM wields can legitmately stop bullets and such without him getting plastered across the face by molten globs of adamantium. Couple that with the fact that the Emperor can also augment himself with his psyker abilities.. Well you end up with a pretty strong dude who can bend adamantium support pillars with his bare hands, and is encompassed in anti offensive psychic armor that is emblazoned with enough runes to keep anything below dedicated efforts from 4 Warp Gods (One of which, whom is a mage who if physically called into this dimension would have the capability of breaking planets with ease. Hell, in his realm he has the ability to create galaxy sized warp storms that boil entire traitor legions.) with the aide of a Demi God out.

Now, your just being silly if your trying to compare Palpatine with GEoM, as strong as he is, even in Force Unleashed the most ridiculous and amped up version of him, he is not really that great. Hell, Anakin before he became Darth Vader is stated to be able to beat him, and Obi Wan isn't exactly Star Killer.

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 09:03 AM

Yeah.. The GEoM is way more powerful than Palpatine even setting aside those totally uncannon EU stories that even George Lucas says aren't canon. (He also denies the Star Wars Christmas Special.. but that's a different story.)

Actually, Dark Empire is one of George Lucas's favorite EU stories:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkEmpire

And there are several degrees of canonicity (some things aren't canon even within the EU). I believe this thread did start with the premise that it's EU Galactic Empire.

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine is said to have beaten three of the greatest Jedi Masters of the Jedi Order- before losing to Mace.

Darth Sidious is roughly on a par with the average Chief Librarian. (tier 3)

Clone Palpatine falls between that and the Emperor- probably Tier 4 to the Emperor's Tier 5.

(These are the tiers I'm referring to):
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperWeight

So he'd lose- but he's still more powerful than any of the psykers the Imperium normally fields in battle.

SW souls are not compareable to WH40k souls - in WH40k, every being has a physical form (body), life force ("spirit", the tnig C´tan want to snack on) and a soul (warp essence). SW souls are more like WH40k "life force" than Wh40 souls. next.

Actually, they are a bit like the 40K ones:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Netherworld_of_the_Force

Star Wars even has possessor entities- akin to 40K daemons:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Derriphan

Selrahc

2010-12-03, 01:04 PM

Since warp travel near Terra is still possible, we'll dismiss that claim as well.

I'm curious as to why you think a really big explosion in the warp would leave warp travel there impossible.

Clone Palpatine falls between that and the Emperor- probably Tier 4 to the Emperor's Tier 5.

By that ranking system the Emperor is in no way tier 5. Tier 5 is near complete omnipotence, and probably omniscience too. The Emperor is right on the level of the textbook Tier 4 characters like Dr Manhattan and Galactus rather than being a universe creating god. For that matter, I'd be doubtful that any character in 40k could compete with real Tier 5's apart from perhaps the Warp gods in the heart of their own domains or the C'Tan unbound and powered up(Not the pitifully depowered and bound avatars currently roaming the 40k universe).

That's not to say I think he is less powerful than Palpatine. Clone Palpatine is probably a very borderline tier 4, while the Emperor fits into that tier solidly. (Superman is a tier 3, although I'd say he sits right at the top of that tier, and Palpatine would be hard pressed to beat him, even at the height of his power, probably putting him on the border of 3/4)

HamHam

2010-12-03, 01:53 PM

In space, I think the IoM wins. But it's kind of hard to get a good idea of the relative power levels of ships from either franchise. Is a turbolaser stronger/weaker/equal to to the standard guns on an Imperium cruiser? I have no idea. So while the IoM's navy seems more impressive to me, I'm not really confident about it.

On the ground one the other hand... Imperial Guard vs Stormtroopers, I think the Imp Guard probably win. Through sheer attrition probably, but that's nothing new.

Arguably the best warriors the Empire has are the Mandalorians (not that they really have them, but they are arguably the peak of martial skill in the universe, so the Empire's special forces are probably about that level). And Mandos would be horribly murdered by Space Marines. Like it wouldn't even be much of a fight.

The Death Star is powerful, sure, but it is also a huge slow-moving target. And while the Rebellion may not have had the resources to take it head on, an Imperium battle fleet would probably be more than enough to bring it down. Especially if you just teleport some Terminator squads on board and have them go to town.

That's another thing, I don't think Star Wars has teleportation.

So it probably comes down to what the Empire could do with all it's Emperors Hands and Inquisitors and dark Jedi and stuff.

Jedi (or other force user) versus Imperial Inquisitor would be a pretty even fight I think. Many Inquisitors are at least somewhat psychic, and their superior technology would make up the difference.

cdstephens

2010-12-03, 03:57 PM

Can we get population numbers? Considering that Star Wars ships use hyperspace, have seemingly instant communication, Palpatine that is still alive and uses his tactical genius to field all the ships, AND THRAWN, if the IoM doesn't have superior numbers, then it gets wrecked, Emperor or not.

I believe clone troopers numbered in the quadrillions?

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-03, 04:41 PM

In space, I think the IoM wins.
Do you have a reason to think that? "I think" isn't a useful metric when trying to actually discern which side actually has an advantage. The entire point of even having these discussions is as an intellectual exercise; put some thought into it.

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 05:00 PM

By that ranking system the Emperor is in no way tier 5. Tier 5 is near complete omnipotence, and probably omniscience too. The Emperor is right on the level of the textbook Tier 4 characters like Dr Manhattan and Galactus rather than being a universe creating god. For that matter, I'd be doubtful that any character in 40k could compete with real Tier 5's apart from perhaps the Warp gods in the heart of their own domains or the C'Tan unbound and powered up(Not the pitifully depowered and bound avatars currently roaming the 40k universe).

That was the figure given in the Tabletop Games section- Greater Daemons were listed as Tier 4, Chaos Gods and the Emperor as Tier 5.

That might have been written by someone very biased in favour of the Emperor though.

The thing is though- in 40K, every Chief librarian (and there are maybe a thousand of so of them- a few chapters like the Black Templars don't have librarians) is in the Tier 3 class- if you go by the Deathwatch description.
Whereas most of the Emperor's Force-using minions are around Tier 2.

So- 40K Imperium, all on it's own, is likely to "outpunch" the Galactic Empire in the Supernatural Powers department, at least.

Talkkno

2010-12-03, 05:00 PM

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 05:05 PM

And the Galactic Empire tends to not use war droids in large numbers after the fall of the Confederacy.

If they churned them out in large numbers again, maybe it might make a difference- but possibly not. Overall the Galactic Empire is a bit lacking in ground-fighting tech.

cdstephens

2010-12-03, 05:06 PM

The CIS made quintillions of battle driods during the war, and that was with only half the industrial capacity of the Empire, and keep in mid its proberly less since they got mostly outer rim worlds to secede in the first place. So no the Imperium isn't going out attribtion them at all.

So would the Empire likely have quintillions or at least quadrillions of troops, considering that they needed a sizable force to deal with the droids in the Clone Wars?

And the Galactic Empire tends to not use war droids in large numbers after the fall of the Confederacy.

If they churned them out in large numbers again, maybe it might make a difference- but possibly not. Overall the Galactic Empire is a bit lacking in ground-fighting tech.

They're blasters can more or less kill people instantly, even people with armor. That's not too bad.

hamishspence

2010-12-03, 05:08 PM

Supposedly, they only used 3 million (plus some extra non-Kamino clones, and volunteer forces, toward the end of the war).

Those were the figures Lucasfilm gave to the authors- and the authors used them.

They're blasters can more or less kill people instantly, even people with armor. That's not too bad.

So can lasguns- unless the armour's very thick. And "hot-shot lasguns" wielded by Imperium of Man stormtroopers, can punch through power armour.

Selrahc

2010-12-03, 05:19 PM

That was the figure given in the Tabletop Games section- Greater Daemons were listed as Tier 4, Chaos Gods and the Emperor as Tier 5.

That might have been written by someone very biased in favour of the Emperor though.

As you'd generally expect from a TV tropes article there is a bit of a disconnect between the article and the numerous examples. I would say that the articles definition of Tier 5 does not match the emperor and there are numerous other cases in the examples of fairly obviously misplaced power levels.

EDIT:

The CIS made quintillions of battle driods during the war

One suspects that this number isn't all that reliable given its vagueness. Battledroids huh? Given that that phrase covers starships, super battle droids and droidekas it could conceivably cover things like the bots that manufacture robots, the targeting bot on a tank, the protocol droid that mans the war room, the cleaning droids, the individual guns might have bot brains. Or maybe a cloud of nanobots are all counted as separate units, adding millions to the total with each cloud. Battle droids is too vague a term to be useful.

cdstephens

2010-12-03, 05:24 PM

Supposedly, they only used 3 million (plus some extra non-Kamino clones, and volunteer forces, toward the end of the war).

DON'T YOU DARE.

TSGames

2010-12-03, 05:58 PM

DON'T YOU DARE.
???
Perhaps you mean, "Oh no you didn't? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCvIw7DMHXc)"

---------------
Been lurking on the thread for a while, and it seems like interesting match-up. From what I've read, the main reason the Empire would be victorious is because of higher mobility. The reason they have higher mobility is because they possess hyperdrive. However, from what I've read, they seem to be outmatched on every other front. IOM ships seem to be better equipped with more laser batteries and more powerful lasers, the ground forces are unarguably better(How many Ewoks would it take to kill a space marine?), and the top tier members(the god-emperor and the inquisitors) seem to be much more capable and powerful than their comparable SW counterparts. Perhaps my perspective is skewed, having only watched the SW movies(all three of them plus, the three other movies), but I'd also wager that your average soldier/marine/whatever in the 40k universe is probably far more competent than the comparable SW counterparts.

In light of this, it seems like the IOM will win if they can steal, reverse engineer, and deploy hyperdrive technology early enough in the war; otherwise, the Empire will win.

I guess then, the question is if the IOM can steal and reverse engineer it before it's too late, 'cause unless they get really lucky with the warp, I can't really see them being able to keep up with the Empire(even if their admirals are as clumsy as they are stupid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuK-aLSZtNo&feature=related)). From what I've read, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that they could manage to acquire hyperdrive. In fact, they could probably just buy some hyperdrive schematics off some traders(I could see the Huts or some other criminals trying to strike up a trade deal pretty quickly). Then the god-Emperor leaps with joy on his golden throne ;) . Going on what I've seen in the thread so far, I'd put my money down on the IOM.

Still, like a lot of verse threads, this seems like an apples vs. oranges comparison. Yeah, they're both fruits, but comparing them beyond that gets a little tricky.

Talkkno

2010-12-03, 06:06 PM

One suspects that this number isn't all that reliable given its vagueness. Battledroids huh? Given that that phrase covers starships, super battle droids and droidekas it could conceivably cover things like the bots that manufacture robots, the targeting bot on a tank, the protocol droid that mans the war room, the cleaning droids, the individual guns might have bot brains. Or maybe a cloud of nanobots are all counted as separate units, adding millions to the total with each cloud. Battle droids is too vague a term to be useful.

No, it refers directly to forces Grevious had under his command(Lord of War, IRRC)

Selrahc

2010-12-03, 06:13 PM

No, it refers directly to forces Grevious had under his command(Lord of War, IRRC)

And why would that not include the things I mentioned?

Talkkno

2010-12-03, 06:36 PM

And why would that not include the things I mentioned?
Those things you refer are not "Battle Droids", as those droids are programmed explicitly not intended for combat and indeed cannot harm humans. Battle droids would obviously not have that restriction.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-03, 06:42 PM

Those things you refer are not "Battle Droids", as those droids are programmed explicitly not intended for combat and indeed cannot harm humans. Battle droids would obviously not have that restriction.

Didn't he list 'bot-brain-controlled gun turrets' and 'bot-controlled tank cannons'? How can those have programming against harming humans?

Is there actually a canon statement of the number of battle droids or clones? It seems the 'quadrillions/quintillions/gadzillions' number is the fanbase-provided number to inject sanity, because the canon-stated "3 million clones" is obviously inadequate.

Talkkno

2010-12-03, 07:26 PM

Is there actually a canon statement of the number of battle droids or clones?

I just cited my source, would you specific page number?

HamHam

2010-12-03, 07:50 PM

Do you have a reason to think that? "I think" isn't a useful metric when trying to actually discern which side actually has an advantage. The entire point of even having these discussions is as an intellectual exercise; put some thought into it.

The Imperium's ships are just described as more capable. Even with shields down, it takes a lot to actually bring one down. While a Star Destroyer can be blown up by a pair of X-Wings if they hit the right spot.

Also Star Wars seems to prefer the retarded "bridge with windows into open space" school of ship design, while 40k ships have their bridges sensibly in the bowls of the ship AFAIK.

Talkkno

2010-12-03, 07:58 PM

The Imperium's ships are just described as more capable. Even with shields down, it takes a lot to actually bring one down. While a Star Destroyer can be blown up by a pair of X-Wings if they hit the right spot.

........................Those are not shield generators, those are sensor globes.:smallmad:

The Glyphstone

2010-12-03, 08:07 PM

........................Those are not shield generators, those are sensor globes.:smallmad:

The ISD-72x Deflector Shield Generators/Sensor Domes (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ISD-72x_shield_generator_dome), you mean?:smallconfused:

shadow_archmagi

2010-12-03, 09:23 PM

How do you even TAKE a hit while your shields are still up, anyway?

HamHam

2010-12-03, 09:47 PM

The Glyphstone

2010-12-03, 10:19 PM

My thoughts on other things that have been brought up:

RE Mobility

Hyperspace is certainly more convenient than the warp, but I don't think speed is actually all that significantly different. They both seem to go somewhere from a couple days to speed of plot. Unless we're using movie and series were it is apparently instantaneous.

Or in the case of the Imperium, speed of suck - whenever they can get there in time to maximize the Crapsack Factor of their Crapsack Universe, that's when they show up.

RE Numbers

The Imperium's armies almost certainly vastly out number that of the Empire. However, many of them are tied down at any one time dealing with any of a thousand conflicts throughout the galaxy, while the worst the Empire has to deal with is the Rebel Alliance.

Still, the Imperium has no trouble throwing as many troops into decades-long crusades over a half-dozen planets as the Republic used during the entirety of the Clone Wars.

Yeah, I think the entire Clone Army would be matched up, in population, by a couple of Hive Worlds (though being soldiers vs. civilians, not equal in a fight). Imperium wins on the population front, no contest at all.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-03, 10:37 PM

Supposedly, they only used 3 million (plus some extra non-Kamino clones, and volunteer forces, toward the end of the war).

Those were the figures Lucasfilm gave to the authors- and the authors used them.
No, those were the figures Karen Traviss pulled out of her rear end because she has no concept of galactic scale, or even planetary scale judging from the fact she thinks a force smaller than the one required to invade Europe in the Second World War is sufficient to fight a galaxy-spanning war. Less than one soldier per planet, what rubbish. :smallannoyed:

cdstephens

2010-12-03, 10:43 PM

Didn't he list 'bot-brain-controlled gun turrets' and 'bot-controlled tank cannons'? How can those have programming against harming humans?

Is there actually a canon statement of the number of battle droids or clones? It seems the 'quadrillions/quintillions/gadzillions' number is the fanbase-provided number to inject sanity, because the canon-stated "3 million clones" is obviously inadequate.

I refuse to consider some of Traviss's work as canon, especially since Lucas retconned a great deal of her work.

According to wikipedia, it's quintillions. Provides a source form this book:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Sith:_Incredible_Cross-Sections

What would ultimately become a Separatist army originally began as several immense forces comprised almost exclusively of droids. When merged, these formed a colossal army numbering in the quintillions.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

HamHam

2010-12-04, 01:12 AM

Today's Clone Wars episode might be of significant use. The Senate is debating purchasing an additional 5 million clones. Based on the fact that this is apparently a significant increase in the total number, I would place the number of Clone Troopers in the GAR no less than 10 million, but no more than 50 million.

Also, apparently even that appoint was effectively bankrupting the Republic. So unless the Empire was able to miraculously change the economic realities of the galaxy, I really doubt they could have been fielding anything more than maybe two or three times that amount by their peak.

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 01:29 AM

I believe clone troopers numbered in the quadrillions?
QUADIRLLIONS. I seriously doubt that ANYONE of us here has only the slightest concept of just how much QUADRILLIONS really is. Any organsiation able to produce any kind of machine by the quadrillions wins by default. Those numbers are indeed totally and absolutely ridicilous, to a degree most here cant even aprecciate. To even get the metal needed to produce any kind of machine in the quadrillions you would have to mine out whole solar systems, and if you think about quadrillions of clone troopers it is even more ridicilous - alone the sheer mass of ressources needed to support anything in the quadrillion numbers would lay havoc to any economy.

Today's Clone Wars episode might be of significant use. The Senate is debating purchasing an additional 5 million clones. Based on the fact that this is apparently a significant increase in the total number, I would place the number of Clone Troopers in the GAR no less than 10 million, but no more than 50 million.
These are much more realistic numbers.

Dudes, always keep in mind that a modern army has a fighting-support ratio of 1:10... basically you have 1 soldier fighting while there are 10 other individuals that have to make sure he has the equipment to fight, food (oil) to eat, that he knows where to fight (intelligence), how to get there (any kind of transport), to train them, to provide medical support of any kind (not only battlefieldsurgery but recovery aid, prothetics etc. ), you need room for them to live in when they are not fighting, R&R.... obviously some of these things are not needed by droids, but you still need repairmen, storage room, spare parts, energy, transports,....

War is a logistical insanity, and if some people here throw arund numbers in the quadrillions - well, they are lacking any kind of idea what they are actually saying.

HamHam

2010-12-04, 01:34 AM

Oh and apparently the CIS getting 3 million more droids would be enough to crush the Republic or something.

cdstephens

2010-12-04, 01:59 AM

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 03:37 AM

5 million doesn't sound that much, considering the scale of the war. =/
It is not. Germany alone had 20 million men under arms in WW 2.

Selrahc

2010-12-04, 03:41 AM

5 million doesn't sound that much, considering the scale of the war. =/

On the other hand Quadrillions and Quintillions are absolutely ridiculous numbers, hence my belief that if the Separatists did indeed have a quintillion droids then it was inflated to a ridiculous degree by something. Lets put this into some context though...

The Imperium has a million worlds. If we assume each of those million worlds has an average population of one billion then the population of the entire Imperium is 100000000000000000, or 100 quadrillion. If the Droid army numbers in the Quintillions then the amount of droids in the clone wars would outnumber the entire population of the Imperium 10:1 at least. I just can't accept that really, given how small scale the entire clone war seems.

I would put the estimate of 100 quadrillion as a relatively accurate figure for the population of the Imperium by the way. 1 billion as the average population/planet seems reasonable given that some planets have a lot more and some have a lot less. Given that figure I'd put the armed forces of the Imperium at 5 quadrillion soldiers, assuming a rate of mobilization of 5% of the populace(which again, some places have much higher, many have lower, but for an incredibly war based society seems a reasonable baseline), with many more as part of local PDF forces.

I'm not entirely sure about Star Wars population or number of planets. My gut says that the 40K Imperium is bigger, but lets assume its similar. There are some severe differences though. The Empire is in the process of gearing up from a largely peace based society. The mobilization rate of the Republic had to be at or close to zero, with defence being almost entirely based around local militias. Changing that pattern of recruitment across a million worlds is a nigh impossible task, and would require many generations to get more than a token force, although focussing on high population centres would still net a *lot* of troops. But a lot of the Empire is in name only, as a large portion of the Empire's fleet and army are taken up with merely holding order in local areas, preventing rebellions and certainly not up to heavy recruiting efforts.

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 04:25 AM

hence my belief that if the Separatists did indeed have a quintillion droids then it was inflated to a ridiculous degree by something.
Something? I guess if you wanted to get an executive organ to rise the spendings on military hardware you would invent/inflate the size of the enemy, would you not? This practise is well known from our politics here on earth... and if palpatine was anything, he was a politician.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-04, 04:40 AM

QUADIRLLIONS. I seriously doubt that ANYONE of us here has only the slightest concept of just how much QUADRILLIONS really is. Any organsiation able to produce any kind of machine by the quadrillions wins by default. Those numbers are indeed totally and absolutely ridicilous, to a degree most here cant even aprecciate. To even get the metal needed to produce any kind of machine in the quadrillions you would have to mine out whole solar systems, and if you think about quadrillions of clone troopers it is even more ridicilous - alone the sheer mass of ressources needed to support anything in the quadrillion numbers would lay havoc to any economy.
And if you have an entire galaxy's worth of resources to exploit at leisure, as the Empire does, you have whole star systems to mine out. What's your point?

These are much more realistic numbers.
No they're not. 50 million combat troops in an empire of a million inhabited star systems is unbelievably low. It means a recruitment pool of fifty men per star system (keeping in mind that several known star systems contain more than one inhabited world; Corellia has five). Modern day Earth has over 1.2 billion men and women under arms (including reserves). Put together a million Earths and suddenly a quadrillion becomes reasonable. Take into account that many of those worlds have several times Earth's population density (hundreds of times in the case of an ecumenopolis such as Coruscant) and have one government that might decide to maintain a higher overall recruitment average than some of Earth's nations and suddenly you can get into the higher reaches covered by the term "quadrillions."

Mind that when I (and I'm pretty sure most other people in this thread) refer to "billion," "quadrillion," and so forth, we're using the short scale, not the long scale (that is, quadrillion is 10^15, not 10^24).

Dudes, always keep in mind that a modern army has a fighting-support ratio of 1:10... basically you have 1 soldier fighting while there are 10 other individuals that have to make sure he has the equipment to fight, food (oil) to eat, that he knows where to fight (intelligence), how to get there (any kind of transport), to train them, to provide medical support of any kind (not only battlefieldsurgery but recovery aid, prothetics etc. ), you need room for them to live in when they are not fighting, R&R.... obviously some of these things are not needed by droids, but you still need repairmen, storage room, spare parts, energy, transports,....

War is a logistical insanity, and if some people here throw arund numbers in the quadrillions - well, they are lacking any kind of idea what they are actually saying.
Taking into account we're talking about an entire galaxy full of inhabited worlds (the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man are both frequently noted as having roughly a million systems under their control in their respective canons), no, we really aren't. Galactic scale is so far beyond anything we could possibly support here on one single planet that yes, not only can you get numbers in the trillions or even quadrillions of men, you'd need them to maintain anything resembling an imperial hegemony.

Forum Explorer

2010-12-04, 05:23 AM

I would put money on the Imperium winning. All the other arguments are also valid but I think the biggest one comes down to experince.

The Imperium has spent more years then the Empire has existed fighting aliens that outpace them in every possible way and have been winning (more or less)

Some Space Marines are old enough to remember the Emperor. So there are individuals who have been fighting longer then the Empire has existed. The Imperium is just more ruthless, has a better mentality, better troops and better equitment.

Also the Empire lost to a single rebellion. The same sort of rebellion is put down daily by the Impeirum.

(Note I have only seen the movies and read about a dozen of the books.)

Selrahc

2010-12-04, 05:36 AM

Some Space Marines are old enough to remember the Emperor.

Uh... no.. rather definitely not.
Commander Dante (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Commander_Dante) of the Blood Angels is the oldest living Space Marine and clocks in at only 1100 years. Even among Dreadnoughts there is only one (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bjorn) recorded being who still remembers personally meeting the Emperor.

Of course that doesn't mean that your average Space Marine isn't really really really experienced. Your average Space Marine probably has 50-100 years of experience fighting the most bloody conflicts imaginable, so your point still stands.

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 06:14 AM

Uh... no.. rather definitely not.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bjorn_the_Fell-Handed

And if you have an entire galaxy's worth of resources to exploit at leisure, as the Empire does, you have whole star systems to mine out. What's your point?
Time, scale and the fact that the Old Republic did not face that many droids - else the few million Clones would have been wiped out in a day and the war would never have lasted that long.

There are official figues on the numbers of clone troops - 5 million camino clones of the first wave, with Centax II (Spaarti) clones of a larger 2nd wave. Even if there were a 100 million clones during the Clone Wars, quintillions of droids would have just beaten that army my mass. So either they were holding back 99% of their army or they did not have it - so this figure alone is ridicilous.

No they're not. 50 million combat troops in an empire of a million inhabited star systems is unbelievably low.
I never said 50 million was not low - indeed, I even stated the WW 2 germany alone had 20 million men under arms .

But that simply DOES NOT MATTER! Because the numbers given to us by Lucas Arts, novels or any other fluff source on SW tell us differently. Again: Fluff > you.

Taking into account we're talking about an entire galaxy full of inhabited worlds (the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man are both frequently noted as having roughly a million systems under their control in their respective canons), no, we really aren't. Galactic scale is so far beyond anything we could possibly support here on one single planet that yes, not only can you get numbers in the trillions or even quadrillions of men, you'd need them to maintain anything resembling an imperial hegemony.
But the galactic Empire is no "Empire" in our sense. Its a federational system with a supreme leader (the "Emperor"). However, if there were such massive numbers involved, fluff would tell us. And it does not.

Selrahc

2010-12-04, 06:22 AM

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bjorn_the_Fell-Handed

Dude, read my post! I fricking linked to him. :smalltongue:

Bjorn the Fell-Handed is the one being in the Imperium who can remember the Emperor on a personal level, but his memories are lost in a cloud of fog and he spends the vast majority of his time in the Sleep of the Ancients.

It's a long way away from "Some Space Marines are old enough to remember meeting the Emperor". It's "One Dreadnought, vastly older than any of his compatriots, vaguely remembers the days of the Emperor". The first statement implies that the existence of 10,000 year old Space Marines is rather common, at least to the point where they are a useful asset in wartime. The second shows the real situation which is that the ancients are basically gone, and the only conscious if not living remnant to that time is a single sleeping and confused Dreadnought.

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 06:35 AM

Bjorn the Fell-Handed is the one being in the Imperium who can remember the Emperor on a personal level, but his memories are lost in a cloud of fog and he spends the vast majority of his time in the Sleep of the Ancients.
hmm, i hope you have not linked to this one:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/wiki/Constantin_Valdor

Selrahc

2010-12-04, 06:38 AM

hmm, i hope you have not linked to this one:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/wiki/Constantin_Valdor

Uh... I haven't but I'm not seeing the relevance. This guy is dead, no? There is certainly no mention of him still being alive on the English language page.

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 06:42 AM

Uh... I haven't but I'm not seeing the relevance. This guy is dead, no? There is certainly no mention of him still being alive on the English language page.
There is no report of him being dead. There are some hints that the Custodes protecting the Emperor today are largely composed of the same individuals that did so 10 millennia ago. Due to their Bodyguard role they have suffered fewer casulties and they are NOT Adeptus Astartes but a different breed of superhuman warriors, which no known maximal age.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-04, 07:22 AM

But that simply DOES NOT MATTER! Because the numbers given to us by Lucas Arts, novels or any other fluff source on SW tell us differently. Again: Fluff > you.
Actually yes, it matters very much, because it constitutes the fluff contradicting itself.

The only way this sort of debate works is to suspend disbelief; you must let go of the notion that there is an outside author dictating how everything is and analyze from a rational perspective. When a novel somewhere says there were millions of troops fighting across a galaxy, we have to assume that the POV storyteller is having the same problems comprehending the scale of the matter as you apparently are, because mere millions of troops could not possibly effectively fight a galaxy-spanning war (even if they're of the caliber of the Space Marines; fortunately we have an out on that because the Space Marines don't carry the Imperium's wars by themselves). A million troops would be hard-pressed to occupy a single planet if the planet's inhabitants didn't largely want to be occupied.

Now, the Imperium tends to fight wars of extermination, which are much less work-intensive than occupation, in that you don't have to keep an eye on people when they're dead (barring the involvement of Nurgle's cult, anyway), but still, when Warmaster Demetrius boasts of half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces to carry on a crusade with (knowing that when the Imperium calls something a crusade it means the involvement of a subsector at the least and that as an apparent Warmaster, Demetrius would be the highest ranking military officer in the entire Imperium during his lifetime), I have to laugh; such forces are still woefully inadequate. This sort of failure to comprehend the scale of what they themselves have written is endemic among the authors of both Star Wars and 40k. (George Lucas doesn't seem to have the problem nearly so much himself, but the people he farms book writing out to certainly do, by and large.) If we treat the authors as outside-perspective omniscient, and the authors themselves don't comprehend the scale of the medium they're working in, we will not have any results that make any kind of sense. Therefore, appealing to outside authority is a waste of time; without an analysis of the material we have nothing to work with.

EvilSun

2010-12-04, 07:36 AM

Actually yes, it matters very much, because it constitutes the fluff contradicting itself.

The only way this sort of debate works is to suspend disbelief; you must let go of the notion that there is an outside author dictating how everything is and analyze from a rational perspective. When a novel somewhere says there were millions of troops fighting across a galaxy, we have to assume that the POV storyteller is having the same problems comprehending the scale of the matter as you apparently are, because mere millions of troops could not possibly effectively fight a galaxy-spanning war (even if they're of the caliber of the Space Marines; fortunately we have an out on that because the Space Marines don't carry the Imperium's wars by themselves). A million troops would be hard-pressed to occupy a single planet if the planet's inhabitants didn't largely want to be occupied.

Now, the Imperium tends to fight wars of extermination, which are much less work-intensive than occupation, in that you don't have to keep an eye on people when they're dead (barring the involvement of Nurgle's cult, anyway), but still, when Warmaster Demetrius boasts of half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces to carry on a crusade with (knowing that when the Imperium calls something a crusade it means the involvement of a subsector at the least and that as an apparent Warmaster, Demetrius would be the highest ranking military officer in the entire Imperium during his lifetime), I have to laugh; such forces are still woefully inadequate. This sort of failure to comprehend the scale of what they themselves have written is endemic among the authors of both Star Wars and 40k. (George Lucas doesn't seem to have the problem nearly so much himself, but the people he farms book writing out to certainly do, by and large.) If we treat the authors as outside-perspective omniscient, and the authors themselves don't comprehend the scale of the medium they're working in, we will not have any results that make any kind of sense. Therefore, appealing to outside authority is a waste of time; without an analysis of the material we have nothing to work with.
__________________
First of all, I do - in all likelyhood - have indeed a quite better idea of what military actions do in fact demand than you may believe. BUT (the BIG) BUT - that does NOT matter in a fictional universe. Because it is fictional. FICTIONAL. Logic and experience we have from our real world do not affect FICTION. They write it a certain way, it is that way, end of story.

You are analysing something no one on earth has ever experienced, in a universe that does not actually exist, with technology that is (to our physics) impossible and you try to use logic based on our real world? Now tell me the logic of THIS. ^^ :smallbiggrin:

TSGames

2010-12-04, 11:53 AM

Actually yes, it matters very much, because it constitutes the fluff contradicting itself.
Are you trying to argue for some kind of consistency in Star Wars? Good luck...

HamHam

2010-12-04, 11:57 AM

A million troops would be hard-pressed to occupy a single planet if the planet's inhabitants didn't largely want to be occupied.

Except this is not what canon suggests is true.

The battle for Christophsis comes down to a couple hundred droids with a dozen tanks and one shield generator against a couple hundred clones.

The Republic sends all of maybe a dozen Acclimators to retake Ryloth.

The average CIS or Republic fleet consists of maybe a half-dozen ships.

BRC

2010-12-04, 06:18 PM

Except this is not what canon suggests is true.

The battle for Christophsis comes down to a couple hundred droids with a dozen tanks and one shield generator against a couple hundred clones.

The Republic sends all of maybe a dozen Acclimators to retake Ryloth.

The average CIS or Republic fleet consists of maybe a half-dozen ships.

But it is what Reality suggests is true.
Napoleon had over half a million soldiers when he went to invade Russia.
At Alesia, Ceaser had around 120,000 soldiers, the Gauls had between 180,000 and 330,000 troops.
1,332,000 troops landed on the beaches at normandy, 380,000 tried to stop them.
According to Herodetus, there were 5200 greeks and 2,600,000 persians at Thermopylae.
These were specific battles, not armies trying to hold a planet.
These numbers are from Wikipedia, but take them as you will. The point is, a million troops trying to hold an entire planet in rebellion would be like a goat trying to stop a charging rhino.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-04, 06:26 PM

What if it's a really awesome goat?

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-04, 11:13 PM

First of all, I do - in all likelyhood - have indeed a quite better idea of what military actions do in fact demand than you may believe. BUT (the BIG) BUT - that does NOT matter in a fictional universe. Because it is fictional. FICTIONAL. Logic and experience we have from our real world do not affect FICTION. They write it a certain way, it is that way, end of story.

You are analysing something no one on earth has ever experienced, in a universe that does not actually exist, with technology that is (to our physics) impossible and you try to use logic based on our real world? Now tell me the logic of THIS. ^^ :smallbiggrin:
If you do not believe that it is possible to rationally analyze fiction from a suspended-disbelief standpoint, then why are we having this discussion? :smallannoyed: Your argument is essentially that it is impossible to even have the debate.

Fjolnir

2010-12-04, 11:41 PM

one thing about the warp that I repeatedly saw is that ships sometimes arrive sooner than they left and other strange things, in a more stable warp environment would there be ways to replicate these types of feats with less risk?
If so the imperium would gain a severe advantage since they would be both faster AND more well armed on all fronts...

if this is not possible, please disregard, I am unfamiliar with the WH4k setting.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-04, 11:45 PM

EvilSun

2010-12-05, 02:36 AM

With a calm Warp, it wouldn't happen.
Warp is Chaos. You can not predict Chaos.

If you do not believe that it is possible to rationally analyze fiction from a suspended-disbelief standpoint, then why are we having this discussion? Your argument is essentially that it is impossible to even have the debate.
This thread is about the comparison of two fictional universes. We have to take what is told us as "fact" about those two fictional universes, else we enter a world of speculation and fanboyism, where everyone comes up with "logic" arguments how it has to be to be "realistic". Is it unrealistic that a few million soldiers do what they are described to do in Star Wars? Yes it is. However, they tell us so, and if we compare it with enother fictional universe we can not simply manipulate what is "fact" with "logic".

warty goblin

2010-12-05, 02:43 AM

Actually yes, it matters very much, because it constitutes the fluff contradicting itself.

The only way this sort of debate works is to suspend disbelief; you must let go of the notion that there is an outside author dictating how everything is and analyze from a rational perspective. When a novel somewhere says there were millions of troops fighting across a galaxy, we have to assume that the POV storyteller is having the same problems comprehending the scale of the matter as you apparently are, because mere millions of troops could not possibly effectively fight a galaxy-spanning war (even if they're of the caliber of the Space Marines; fortunately we have an out on that because the Space Marines don't carry the Imperium's wars by themselves). A million troops would be hard-pressed to occupy a single planet if the planet's inhabitants didn't largely want to be occupied.

Now, the Imperium tends to fight wars of extermination, which are much less work-intensive than occupation, in that you don't have to keep an eye on people when they're dead (barring the involvement of Nurgle's cult, anyway), but still, when Warmaster Demetrius boasts of half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces to carry on a crusade with (knowing that when the Imperium calls something a crusade it means the involvement of a subsector at the least and that as an apparent Warmaster, Demetrius would be the highest ranking military officer in the entire Imperium during his lifetime), I have to laugh; such forces are still woefully inadequate. This sort of failure to comprehend the scale of what they themselves have written is endemic among the authors of both Star Wars and 40k. (George Lucas doesn't seem to have the problem nearly so much himself, but the people he farms book writing out to certainly do, by and large.) If we treat the authors as outside-perspective omniscient, and the authors themselves don't comprehend the scale of the medium they're working in, we will not have any results that make any kind of sense. Therefore, appealing to outside authority is a waste of time; without an analysis of the material we have nothing to work with.

By this standard I can say with perfect justification that X Wings can't fly since their engines show no sign of thrust vectoring, their wings are certainly not airfoils and they lack control surfaces. All those shots in the movies of them zooming around atmospheres are clearly the work of authors who have no idea what they are talking about, and since we can't have that we've got to revert to the realistic scenario.

Because at the end of the day waging an intergalactic war with a few millions of men is no more unrealistic than an X Wing. You've gotta take the nonsensical with the nonsensical.

Renegade Paladin

2010-12-05, 06:28 AM

Warp is Chaos. You can not predict Chaos.
The Warp has historically been calm in the far distant past of 40k, before the dramatic rise in the power of the Chaos Gods post-Heresy. What makes it dangerous is the turmoil of sapient emotion caused by constant war and the daemons that the same spawns. The instances of ships arriving before they leave is made possible by violent Warp currents, which by definition wouldn't happen if the Warp was calm. Not that it matters anyway, since the direct answer to the question asked is "No, the Imperium does not have the ability to regulate the Warp." The occasional time displaced ship is too unpredictable an occurrence to reliably be used as a weapon.
This thread is about the comparison of two fictional universes. We have to take what is told us as "fact" about those two fictional universes, else we enter a world of speculation and fanboyism, where everyone comes up with "logic" arguments how it has to be to be "realistic". Is it unrealistic that a few million soldiers do what they are described to do in Star Wars? Yes it is. However, they tell us so, and if we compare it with enother fictional universe we can not simply manipulate what is "fact" with "logic".
Again, this relies on the presumption that there is a third party omniscient (and unfailingly truthful) outside narrator. Suspension of disbelief does not allow for that presumption. If a speaker in a story says something that literally cannot be true, then guess what? It cannot be true. Particularly (at least in Star Wars; all you get out of GW when you ask is that all sources are equal) when a novel directly contradicts what we see in the movies; there are more clones than that at the troop review at the end of Attack of the Clones (before war production had a chance to ramp up in a meaningful way), meaning there's got to be some sort of error somewhere.

Not that it really matters, because the Empire's ground forces lose hard in a conventional pitched surface battle, as I believe has been agreed upon by pretty much everyone in the thread pages back, no matter whether you're applying critical thinking to what we're told or not. The real problem is Imperial naval firepower, which, while not as grossly higher than the Imperium's as it is relative to several other popular sci-fi universes, still possesses a firepower edge on a scale of roughly an order of magnitude. I happen to have access to an extensive analysis of 40k naval firepower based on described effects on objects of relatively known materials (which should make you happy, as it's a form of what we're directly told by the story), which I will see to citing later; for now I don't have time to write more in this post before I need to go to sleep. Suffice to say that their weapons are in the mid-gigaton range on average based on the described effects of a direct-fire Exterminatus, while the Galactic Empire's spaceborne weaponry clocks in at the upper gigaton range based on both on-screen evidence and direct statements in both OOC-point of view reference books and in some of the novels. Elaboration (again) later.

cdstephens

2010-12-05, 07:06 AM

For the whole population thing, in the Episode 3 novelization (which is G-canon, so cannot be disputed I believe) Palpatine mentions there being a trillion people or so on Coruscant and quadrillions of people in the galaxy. He throws these numbers out randomly, so it can be believed that the population of the Empire would be around these numbers, but not exactly.

Also, what if Chaos is a manifestation of the Dark Side?

Selrahc

2010-12-05, 07:11 AM

It is probably worth noting though, the very fastest transits through the warp will take place at speeds approaching or exceeding hyperspeed, even without the "Going back in time" effects which are caused by strange warp events.

A good navigator using accurate warp charts can get his ship between whole segmentums in a matter of days. A less adept navigator might take months or even a year to do the same thing, if he even manages to make the journey at all. Military navigators and information tend to be among the best, as the navigator houses gain a lot of their prestige from serving the military.

A rapid response fleet composed of the very best navigators, running ships designed for quick and easy warp travel would be a reliable defence mechanism against the speed level of star wars. Unfortunately for the Imperium the amount of ships they have that can reliably make the journeys at a good speed is very low. The rapid response fleet would be at best a token defence force against any serious aggression.

Just as an example of what I'm talking about. We'll look at the charts for astronavigation in Rogue Trader, and what you can do to travel faster

The baseline amount of time it takes to travel fully across a segmentum is 30-60 days, to be decreased by the GM if the navigator is familiar with the route. We'll assume these seasoned navigators have a good familiarity, and err towards the lower end as the base time for the journey. Call it 40 days.

Now these are the best navigators the Imperium has to offer. They're using the best star charts and navigational equipment the Imperium has available. They're also using a few secret tricks, which I'll get to in a second.

Succeeding heavily on a navigation roll greatly decreases the amount of time spent in transit. With three degrees of success the amount of time is quartered. These navigators would definitely be able to reliably succeed that well on their navigation rolls.

More than that then, there are certain archaeotech and alien technologies employed by the Imperium on occasion. The most useful in this case is probably the Runecaster. A piece of alien technology that massively helps navigation rolls, and halves the base time taken for journeys. Other pieces of archeotech can decrease the time taken by a quarter.

With all that taken into account, the average time it would take the Rapid Response Fleet to respond to a threat coming from a quarter of a galaxy away is just 4 days. For something closer to their location they'd be able to respond nearly instantly, within a few hours. I would put that speed of transit as close to the speed of Hyperspace travel

Of course an issue that becomes raised is just how fast the Imperium can even receive a distress call. Rogue Trader gives us some sample numbers of how long it takes for a transmitted message to reach its destination, and the result isn't good... It actually probably takes longer for a message to reach its destination than it would for the Rapid Response Fleet to respond to it. It takes from 1-5 weeks for a message to cross a segmentum. And while that time can be heavily decreased by piggybacking the message along multiple senders(From system to system, rather than across the entire segmentum in one swoop) that also runs the risk of the message coming out garbled. One could imagine a system where the Astropaths in high priority systems were sending all clear messages every few hours, and the absence of a message was a symbol to scramble the fleet, but Astrotelepathy is not a foolproof procedure. The physical strain that would come on the telepaths would leave them at heavy risk of screw ups eventually.

EvilSun

2010-12-05, 07:42 AM

The Warp has historically been calm in the far distant past of 40k, before the dramatic rise in the power of the Chaos Gods post-Heresy. What makes it dangerous is the turmoil of sapient emotion caused by constant war and the daemons that the same spawns. The instances of ships arriving before they leave is made possible by violent Warp currents, which by definition wouldn't happen if the Warp was calm. Not that it matters anyway, since the direct answer to the question asked is "No, the Imperium does not have the ability to regulate the Warp." The occasional time displaced ship is too unpredictable an occurrence to reliably be used as a weapon.

The warp being "chaos" has absolutely nothing to do with it being "calm" or not - the reason ships in WH40k have Gellar Fields to protect them when entering the Warp is not only Daemons attacking the ship - the reason is that the Warp is Chaos - concepts like order, physical laws or similar things do not exist within it.... so the concept of atoms composing a material does not exist in the warp - and due to it being energy, it renders everything it it "chaotic", be it a ship or a sentient being. As example, the gellar field is described to project a sphere of "reality" around a ship to protect it from the chaos of the Warp (check out SW and SD novels for reference).

I happen to have access to an extensive analysis of 40k naval firepower based on described effects on objects of relatively known materials (which should make you happy, as it's a form of what we're directly told by the story), which I will see to citing later; for now I don't have time to write more in this post before I need to go to sleep. Suffice to say that their weapons are in the mid-gigaton range on average based on the described effects of a direct-fire Exterminatus, while the Galactic Empire's spaceborne weaponry clocks in at the upper gigaton range based on both on-screen evidence and direct statements in both OOC-point of view reference books and in some of the novels. Elaboration (again) later.
Bah, is this the analysis of different fictional universes based on ships shooting on an asteroid? :smallbiggrin:

Fire power seems to be limited by imagination only in fictional universes anyway. As example, in a Ghostmaker novel, an Imperial Escort uses lances to fire on a daemon on the surface of a planet, resulting in a hole several miles deep. :smallcool:
In SW KotoR the planet of Tarnis (or whatever it was called) was bombarded for days until annhihilation. :smallwink:
In Star Trek 7 8472 Bioships blew up a planet in about 7 seconds ^^.
The CULTURE constructs massive orbitals and zaps them out of existance in the blink of an eye. :smalltongue:

The only thing with significally greater firepower than anything the IoM has is the Death Star, who can blow up a planet with one shot. Well. In WH40k most battle barges can destroy a planet by use of cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombs, massive vortex warheads shot into the planetary core or prolonged bombardement by the standard ship weapons (for reference read the Dark Angels Codex and what happened to their homeworld^^).

Also, what if Chaos is a manifestation of the Dark Side?
WAAAAHHH! Chaos is an own dimension, with its own sentient creatures (daemons). also, chaos itself is neutral. ^^