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WarKitty
2010-11-23, 12:38 PM
...is that it's really hard to not break a caster. *rant warning ahead*

Seriously. I picked a druid because I like the whole druid feel. Admittedly I used some cheese to get ridiculous wisdom, but I'm still sticking to 1-2 spells per encounter. And it's still hard to not clean up encounters by yourself without going straight to ineffectiveness. I built a controller with the idea that it would make it easier for the non-casters to be useful as well. Turns out I can *still* dominate an encounter without trying.

I'd just like to, you know, play a fun character with the whole I can tap into nature and mess you up feel. I'm not trying to break the game, but it gets a little annoying having to try to not break the game, while not turning myself into a glorified wand of energy damage.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 12:41 PM
You could be a Wildshape Ranger, Shugenja or Spirit Shaman; those are all nature-focused but less powerful.

And yes, Druids (even the nerfbat-smacked Pathfinder Druid) are pretty ridiculous in 3.5.

mostlyharmful
2010-11-23, 12:41 PM
to be fair druid is by far and away the easiest to break, you can just about not go wrong by just picking natural spell and having a positive Con and Wis.

Cleric and Wizard are both MUCH easier to play at lower levels of optifu

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 12:43 PM
I'm not even really using wildshape for anything other than a good fly speed and some AC; it's just being the only full caster in the party that seems to do it. And I *like* playing casters. I'm guessing it would be the same issue with a wizard or cleric.

Frosty
2010-11-23, 12:43 PM
You should play a Pathfinder Witch whose patron is a nature-based one. Take Brew potions one of your Hexes. Pump Survival (no CC crap in PF), and have lotsa fun! you can have plenty of nature-fluff with a cackling witch from the woods.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 12:45 PM
You should play a Pathfinder Witch whose patron is a nature-based one. Take Brew potions one of your Hexes. Pump Survival (no CC crap in PF), and have lotsa fun! you can have plenty of nature-fluff with a cackling witch from the woods.

But I have a class that I like? Seriously, I love the druid feel, I much prefer divine casters over arcane and I love having the chance to play out my own more panentheistic beliefs. I just don't want to be the one always trying to figure out how to keep things balanced.

Edit: Really though, I think this would be an issue with any sort of full caster. It's just hard not to blow things up with spells.

Frosty
2010-11-23, 12:54 PM
You can play a Cleric who worships Ehlonna? If you must play a a druid, then at least use the PF one.

Analytica
2010-11-23, 12:56 PM
Then add more fluff. If you can't see exactly why a given spell makes perfect sense within your character's belief system, don't use it. Never be in wildshape for mechanical reasons, only don animal forms because of whatever virtues they symbolize. Devise some form of ritual that your character feels combat should play out as, and avoid deviating from it as anything else would be less sacred ("First those Chosen to die shall be bound to the ground. Second their blood shall water the soil. Only then may I dine on the life-giving nectar, and only then shall I call down the levinbolt!").

I realize many people share your experience. For my part it rarely happens. This is probably because I suck at most optimization, but partly I think it is because I do mostly flavour choices. "Grease? Color spray? That would look silly. Also I have a fire focus because of my backstory, so I will only use fire spells. Polymorph? Given how cool my outfit looks, why would I transform into something that isn't even humanoid?"

Note that this is me as a player thinking those things, not my character. My character simply hasn't done a thorough simulation of what spell combinations are most effective, despite her ridiculous Intelligence and Knowledge skills. Those go towards understanding the in-game metaphysics behind the magic, but not necessarily towards understanding the full consequences of this particular rules representation of those metaphysics. Other people may certainly interpret this differently, of course.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 01:06 PM
You can play a Cleric who worships Ehlonna? If you must play a a druid, then at least use the PF one.

We're already playing PF. And (1) this didn't come up until midway through the campaign, so I can't exactly change class now. (2) It's not the wildshape that's the issue. I haven't been in melee since second level. It's being a full caster in a noncaster party.


Then add more fluff. If you can't see exactly why a given spell makes perfect sense within your character's belief system, don't use it. Never be in wildshape for mechanical reasons, only don animal forms because of whatever virtues they symbolize. Devise some form of ritual that your character feels combat should play out as, and avoid deviating from it as anything else would be less sacred ("First those Chosen to die shall be bound to the ground. Second their blood shall water the soil. Only then may I dine on the life-giving nectar, and only then shall I call down the levinbolt!").

I realize many people share your experience. For my part it rarely happens. This is probably because I suck at most optimization, but partly I think it is because I do mostly flavour choices. "Grease? Color spray? That would look silly. Also I have a fire focus because of my backstory, so I will only use fire spells. Polymorph? Given how cool my outfit looks, why would I transform into something that isn't even humanoid?"

Note that this is me as a player thinking those things, not my character. My character simply hasn't done a thorough simulation of what spell combinations are most effective, despite her ridiculous Intelligence and Knowledge skills. Those go towards understanding the in-game metaphysics behind the magic, but not necessarily towards understanding the full consequences of this particular rules representation of those metaphysics. Other people may certainly interpret this differently, of course.

See that's what I've *been* doing. I focused in specifically on control spells because that was the type of character I want to play. No call lightning. No contagion. Just walls and AoE control spells. And it still breaks things.

Amphetryon
2010-11-23, 01:06 PM
What's the rest of the party look like? More insight there can lead to a better understanding of how to approach encounters, as a Druid, without overshadowing the lot of them.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 01:13 PM
What's the rest of the party look like? More insight there can lead to a better understanding of how to approach encounters, as a Druid, without overshadowing the lot of them.

Ok two-part thing.

One, this is just me ranting. I'm tired of having to consider how to not steal the spotlight all the time, when none of the other players are having to do that. I built a controller. I emphatically do not want to play a direct damage-dealer. I'm feeling like my character concept is the one that's always "change your character, don't play like this or this or this" when I just want to play the stupid game with my friends and sling some magic around because I like slinging cool magic around, and I like messing people up rather than just dealing damage. I don't want to change the character who's personality and strategies I have developed so everyone else can have fun at the expense of my own. And having to constantly think "is this going to overshadow someone else" is making it less fun because I can't let myself just play the character.

Two, so far we have an alchemist, two barbarians (one ranged), one fighter (usually ignored because she whines), one ranger, and a sorc/fighter.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 02:12 PM
And having to constantly think "is this going to overshadow someone else" is making it less fun because I can't let myself just play the character.

It sounds like your teammates need to suck less optimize more.

Maybe you can direct them to these forums for some character sheet pimping?
Your DM will automatically follow suit once you all start breezing through encounters as a unit.

mucat
2010-11-23, 02:28 PM
Have you thought about multiclassing?

Multiclassing to a non-caster class, or taking a PrC without full spell progression, is widely called a foolish move because the character inevitibly ends up less powerful. Which actually makes it a great move, when you want a caster who retains all their flavor but doesn't outpower the rest of the team. Just let your druid take a few levels in another class that fits her personality -- ranger, rogue, even wizard if she's got a scholarly side.

If anything, the character has more flavor than before, and she's still got enough power to pull her own weight...just not enough to pull everyone else's weight too.


It sounds like your teammates need to suck less optimize more.

Maybe you can direct them to these forums for some character sheet pimping?
Your DM will automatically follow suit once you all start breezing through encounters as a unit.
If they're happy playing low-op, the last thing they need is to start letting the internet help them design their characters.

AstralFire
2010-11-23, 02:32 PM
Try reclassing yourself as a divine bard with druid spells and wild shape? I understand your frustration, though.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 02:36 PM
Have you thought about multiclassing?

Multiclassing to a non-caster class, or taking a PrC without full spell progression, is widely called a foolish move because the character inevitibly ends up less powerful. Which actually makes it a great move, when you want a caster who retains all their flavor but doesn't outpower the rest of the team. Just let your druid take a few levels in another class that fits her personality -- ranger, rogue, even wizard if she's got a scholarly side.

If anything, the character has more flavor than before, and she's still got enough power to pull her own weight...just not enough to pull everyone else's weight too.

Main problem I have is if it isn't wis-based I *suck* at it. Not 100% suck at int-based stuff, but they're not good. My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low. I thought about dipping cleric but our DM won't let us do the cleric of an ideal thing, and I've set her up as a pseudo-atheist already.


Ugh. If they're happy playing low-op, the last thing they need is to start letting the internet help them design their characters.

Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority? (And one of the other high-op players has expressed the same thing. The other one just annoys everyone.) Like I said, I'm getting tired of being the one trying to make it work as a group and spending extra time doing research to accommodate someone else's character because someone else doesn't want to do that work to accommodate mine.

I dunno, I always thought the issue was that non-casters aren't powerful enough, not that a well-played caster is too much. If I'm supposed to be playing heroic fantasy, why can't I unleash my fun physics-breaking spells instead of plodding along playing a support role?

Tengu_temp
2010-11-23, 02:50 PM
Do your fellow players mind that you win encounters on your own with your spells? Or do they have the "she deals no damage while I deal a lot, so all the glory is mine" mindset? If the latter then problem solved, everyone is happy! If the former then I got nothing. Try focusing more on buffs and direct damage spells, maybe?

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 02:52 PM
Do your fellow players mind that you win encounters on your own with your spells? Or do they have the "she deals no damage while I deal a lot, so all the glory is mine" mindset? If the latter then problem solved, everyone is happy! If the former then I got nothing. Try focusing more on buffs and direct damage spells, maybe?

I think two or three of them have some issues. I'm going to go with two, because I have a feeling the third would have issues no matter what. The thing is, "more buffs/direct damage spells" is exactly what I don't want to do. It just flips the issue - all of a sudden, instead of overtaking encounters, I'm superfluous in them.

TheMeMan
2010-11-23, 02:55 PM
Main problem I have is if it isn't wis-based I *suck* at it. Not 100% suck at int-based stuff, but they're not good. My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low. I thought about dipping cleric but our DM won't let us do the cleric of an ideal thing, and I've set her up as a pseudo-atheist already.



Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority? (And one of the other high-op players has expressed the same thing. The other one just annoys everyone.) Like I said, I'm getting tired of being the one trying to make it work as a group and spending extra time doing research to accommodate someone else's character because someone else doesn't want to do that work to accommodate mine.

I dunno, I always thought the issue was that non-casters aren't powerful enough, not that a well-played caster is too much. If I'm supposed to be playing heroic fantasy, why can't I unleash my fun physics-breaking spells instead of plodding along playing a support role?

Partly because choosing a Druid is essentially starting the game saying "You guys are the back seat to me! Watch what I can do!" Effectively, your ruin the game by merely being a Druid. They are that strong, and almost always completely outshine every other player.

The problem, then, is your mindset. You seem to want to be a solo machine, you want to blow up the world single-handedly.

Which is a problem in a group game.

Amphetryon
2010-11-23, 02:58 PM
AoE effects like Entangle that don't damage, and Summons that are mostly fliers so that they mainly scout ahead would likely address much of the perceived problem.

Part of the issue seems to be trying to please everyone, though. That's famously difficult.

Caphi
2010-11-23, 03:03 PM
Multiclassing to a non-caster class, or taking a PrC without full spell progression, is widely called a foolish move because the character inevitibly ends up less powerful. Which actually makes it a great move, when you want a caster who retains all their flavor but doesn't outpower the rest of the team. Just let your druid take a few levels in another class that fits her personality -- ranger, rogue, even wizard if she's got a scholarly side.

Not really sure I agree with the character having more "flavor", because the concept of how flavorful a character is is notoriously slippery, but +1 to the rest of this. You can dump your casting down to 5s or 6s at 20 and contribute to a low-op party great. You'll be worse than a regular wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid 20, but you'll still do better at being a paladin/ranger/soldier-guy that uses magic tricks to mess up the battlefield than an actual paladin/ranger/anything. (I have such a paladin character right now, with paladin 2 mixed in for background+DG.)

In your case, you might want to sacrifice a few casting levels (not that many, let your field control lose its punch to scaling saves) in exchange for some PrC features that give you extra tricks for support or utility?

TheMeMan
2010-11-23, 03:03 PM
AoE effects like Entangle that don't damage, and Summons that are mostly fliers so that they mainly scout ahead would likely address much of the perceived problem.

Part of the issue seems to be trying to please everyone, though. That's famously difficult.

Ah, but the person doesn't want to change tactics. As is rather apparent, they want to go "Boom-Boom! I win!". Which is a problem when choosing a class that, even with minimal optimization, can completely outshine many optimized builds that would normally be perfectly strong. Pleasing everyone isn't the issue here, really. Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.

JaronK
2010-11-23, 03:06 PM
Heh, this is what the tier system was specifically written to deal with, theoretically in advance. And you seem to be grating over the fact that the solution is for you to pick up the idiot ball on a regular basis, and you're finding that grating. It's understandable. It breaks RP and it means you don't get to try and solve encounters... you instead sit there figuring out how to not solve them too quickly.

One possible thing that could help is that UA has two bard variants. The first is the divine bard, which just makes bards, well, divine. The second is a bard that swaps a few things to get an animal companion. If you did both of these, you'd be weaker, but still a divine nature themed caster. So that's something to consider. Wild Shaped Ranger was also mentioned in this thread, though it sounds like WS isn't what the problem is... and Healers won't outshine anyone, plus they're divine. Warmages would be fun, but not divine.

JaronK

AstralFire
2010-11-23, 03:07 PM
Ah, but the person doesn't want to change tactics. As is rather apparent, they want to go "Boom-Boom! I win!". Which is a problem when choosing a class that, even with minimal optimization, can completely outshine many optimized builds that would normally be perfectly strong. Pleasing everyone isn't the issue here, really. Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.



I think you're reading too much into the situation. From WarKitty's past posts, she seems to me like someone who likes most aspects of her group, likes the flavor of her class, and also wants to get a chance to flex her competence rather than self-hindering. It's not that strange; it's the flip side of people who want to be good with Monks or Truenamers.

Sipex
2010-11-23, 03:07 PM
I'm confused, you're playing a non-damaging build so you're just locking up enemies.

How is anyone in your group upset with this?

Ungvar
2010-11-23, 03:11 PM
So how exactly are you dominating to such a degree that no one else ever shines?

How about walking us through a representative encounter, and that will help us understand where the problem truly lies.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 03:29 PM
Ah, but the person doesn't want to change tactics. As is rather apparent, they want to go "Boom-Boom! I win!". Which is a problem when choosing a class that, even with minimal optimization, can completely outshine many optimized builds that would normally be perfectly strong. Pleasing everyone isn't the issue here, really. Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.


Partly because choosing a Druid is essentially starting the game saying "You guys are the back seat to me! Watch what I can do!" Effectively, your ruin the game by merely being a Druid. They are that strong, and almost always completely outshine every other player.

The problem, then, is your mindset. You seem to want to be a solo machine, you want to blow up the world single-handedly.

Which is a problem in a group game.

Not really. I'm just feeling like my options are "Go Boom-Boom! I win!" or "sit around doing 2d6 of damage while the barbarian is doing 3d6+str and tripping people." I'd be happiest if everyone could have a good Boom option, honestly. Failing that, I'd at least like to not force anyone to take a backseat to me without myself fading into the background.


AoE effects like Entangle that don't damage, and Summons that are mostly fliers so that they mainly scout ahead would likely address much of the perceived problem.

Part of the issue seems to be trying to please everyone, though. That's famously difficult.

Yeah you may be right, especially since I'm not the only high-op person that tends to overshadow people. Which is part of my complaint - if we have 3 high-op and 3 low-op, why is it the high-op has to hold back so that the low-op doesn't have to bother to bring their characters up?


Heh, this is what the tier system was specifically written to deal with, theoretically in advance. And you seem to be grating over the fact that the solution is for you to pick up the idiot ball on a regular basis, and you're finding that grating. It's understandable. It breaks RP and it means you don't get to try and solve encounters... you instead sit there figuring out how to not solve them too quickly.

One possible thing that could help is that UA has two bard variants. The first is the divine bard, which just makes bards, well, divine. The second is a bard that swaps a few things to get an animal companion. If you did both of these, you'd be weaker, but still a divine nature themed caster. So that's something to consider. Wild Shaped Ranger was also mentioned in this thread, though it sounds like WS isn't what the problem is... and Healers won't outshine anyone, plus they're divine. Warmages would be fun, but not divine.

JaronK

Unfortunately not an option to do mid-campaign. I knew about the tier system, I just didn't expect it to kick in with a vengeance the minute I got 3rd-level spells. Plus it's bad for all of us if I lose caster levels, because as the only full caster I've got a few of the spells that you really need when you need.

I sort of figured the problems wouldn't kick in for another 5 levels or so, which we weren't supposed to reach. That's part of the issue - I went in thinking "oh, we're ending at level 12 or so, it won't be an issue."


So how exactly are you dominating to such a degree that no one else ever shines?

How about walking us through a representative encounter, and that will help us understand where the problem truly lies.

Will try to get to this tonight. Need to get off the computer. :smallredface:

Calmar
2010-11-23, 03:32 PM
Admittedly I used some cheese to get ridiculous wisdom, but I'm still sticking to 1-2 spells per encounter.

My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low.

Why did you build your druid that way? Do you rely on wildshape for any physical capability?

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 03:34 PM
Why did you build your druid that way? Do you rely on wildshape for any physical capability?

No, I was going for the squishy caster so I didn't end up dominating both melee and casting. Which, admittedly, is my major weakness - no hit points and no melee abilities at all.

Also, rolled stats.

mucat
2010-11-23, 03:47 PM
Main problem I have is if it isn't wis-based I *suck* at it. Not 100% suck at int-based stuff, but they're not good. My str/dex/con/cha scores are all low. I thought about dipping cleric but our DM won't let us do the cleric of an ideal thing, and I've set her up as a pseudo-atheist already.
Would it work to take a martial or sneaky class, and then use it when in a wildshape with the appropriate ability scores?


Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority? Ah; I'd thought it was more like a single high-op character in a low-op party. With a 50/50 split, it makes sense to ask both groups to give a little.


Partly because choosing a Druid is essentially starting the game saying "You guys are the back seat to me! Watch what I can do!" Effectively, your ruin the game by merely being a Druid. They are that strong, and almost always completely outshine every other player.

The problem, then, is your mindset. You seem to want to be a solo machine, you want to blow up the world single-handedly.

Which is a problem in a group game.
That is entirely unfair. She said that she's playing a druid for the flavor, and finds its overpowered nature (no pun intended) an inconvenience. To assume that people only play Tier-1 classes because they want power is absurd. Two of my favorite classes, from a flavor standpoint, are Wizard and Druid. I'm glad when a DM proposes a way to tone down these classes; it means I can play them without having to think of ways to keep them from dominating the game.

(In fact, that's why I suggested multiclassing; it's become one of my favorite tricks for building a caster who can try their best in every encounter, without automatically winning them.)

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 03:53 PM
Would it work to take a martial or sneaky class, and then use it when in a wildshape with the appropriate ability scores?

PF, sorry. Wildshape no longer means you get the ability scores of your new form. Also my main concern about lost caster levels is I'm the *only* full caster. We're already hurting for lack of some key "remove status effect" spells that are on the sorc/wiz list.

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 04:00 PM
Sorry, but just had to say, that's the point of the tier system. T1 tends to break the game without hardly trying. Your title is off.

But anyway, some advice. Get more into the roleplay. Think about what spells would be more in tune with you. Consider being more of a blaster. Consider rarely casting any spells but healing. Etc.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 04:04 PM
Sorry, but just had to say, that's the point of the tier system. T1 tends to break the game without hardly trying. Your title is off.

But anyway, some advice. Get more into the roleplay. Think about what spells would be more in tune with you. Consider being more of a blaster. Consider rarely casting any spells but healing. Etc.

Already did that. My only rule is I will not blast, because I don't enjoy that playstyle. And I did know about the tier system, but I didn't know it would lead to this at level 5.

Why does everyone assume I'm not roleplaying my character anyway? If it weren't a RP issue I'd just switch my class and be done with it; the reason I don't want to is I want to roleplay a druid.

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 04:07 PM
Already did that. My only rule is I will not blast, because I don't enjoy that playstyle. And I did know about the tier system, but I didn't know it would lead to this at level 5.

Why does everyone assume I'm not roleplaying my character anyway? If it weren't a RP issue I'd just switch my class and be done with it; the reason I don't want to is I want to roleplay a druid.

Well, consider not doing anything in the first round then. Being true neutral and all, you could say you are weighing and balancing the ebbs and flows of conflict. There's all sorts of ways to come up with to nerf your character roleplay wise.

The other thing is simply help your group be more optimized. At level 5, assuming ToB is open, I can do just fine with a druid.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 04:19 PM
The other thing is simply help your group be more optimized. At level 5, assuming ToB is open, I can do just fine with a druid.

I really think this is the best option. Sure they may be having fun now (and we aren't even sure of that), but that doesn't mean they won't also have fun being more optimized.

TurtleKing
2010-11-23, 04:59 PM
Warkitty is already roleplaying quite a bit from what I have gathered. It would help if we got a synapses of the the character's fluff.

This is the side of the coin were the class is possibly too powerful. The other side is where the fluff and roleplaying of the character is too powerful. For all of the ones who say roleplay more or improve the roleplaying be careful. If you think the roleplaying can't get to this point then you haven't seen the story of my prinny.

Frankly Warkitty I think there is not all that much that you can do except try to empower the low-op characters when they level to be able to stand without help. When you start a new campaign have everyone make their characters together so the opt level of the group is close to each other.

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 05:04 PM
Warkitty is already roleplaying quite a bit from what I have gathered. It would help if we got a synapses of the the character's fluff.

This is the side of the coin were the class is possibly too powerful. The other side is where the fluff and roleplaying of the character is too powerful. For all of the ones who say roleplay more or improve the roleplaying be careful. If you think the roleplaying can't get to this point then you haven't seen the story of my prinny.

Its not about roleplaying more its about roleplaying differently. Remember, roleplay does not equal underpowered. Just roleplay him/her less powerful, there's a 100 reasons.

Or just talk to you DM about providing enemies that are harder vs casters. (spread out more, SR, ranged, etc) if its really that much of a problem.

Warlawk
2010-11-23, 05:08 PM
I am in a similar position with our current game, though we have just hit 3rd so it is not bad yet. A 3.5 game with a Druid (pretty sure he has NO idea what he's doing with the class), a human monk (*sigh*), a moon elf scout and myself. I am running a gold elven domain wizard with elven wizard sub level 1.

Thus far things have been ok of course. I throw some grease/color spray and let them do the heavy lifting (we just hit 3 last session so I haven't got a chance to even sling level 2s yet). I am building toward Wiz5/Incantrix10/something5. I can see already it's going to get... ugly in a few levels.

My approach thus far has been to throw STRONG hints to other players of things they should be on the lookout for. The scout is my wife, so it's easy to give her some ideas. Already got her heading down the path for manyshot/shot on the run and a splitting bow. I'm going to discuss with our DM a magic item that requires a fast movement class ability, for each 10' of fast movement you can move an extra 5' on your 5' step. That would be a good first step in letting a monk/scout still move and be able to take advantage of their class abilities. I think I've mentioned Natural Spell to our druid at least 3 or 4 times every session (he didn't even know it existed beforehand). And I am going to try very hard to get our monk to look into Tashalatorian (I think I misspelled that) to mix in some psiwarrior levels or something.

The upside being most of the group does not give a damn should I end up being pretty dominant. The druid player might be a little annoyed, but not enough to make a big deal about it. He's the youngest of us at 27, and the other 4 of us (3 players and dm) have been friends for 15-20 years, so that is just not as big an issue except that I don't want to be "that guy" ya know? Part of the problem is that I am, I don't want to say quite a perfectionist, but if I do something I want to do it right. Now, that said, I do have a very strong personality and RP ideas for my character that will certainly effect advancement choices, but I'm not going to be a blaster, and I'm not going to deliberately hobble myself either. Kind of a crappy position to be in, but I'm going to just roll with it and see how it goes, try to gently suggest some build tweaks and magic items that can help narrow the gap a bit.

The entire group is more concerned with telling a good story and having fun than the following the rules to the letter though, so little custom magic items like I listed above or things like that can crop up and no one will bat an eye.

Chen
2010-11-23, 05:18 PM
So how exactly are you dominating the encounters? Maybe try to avoid the more brokenly powerful spells? There are still plenty of "good" spells that don't completely trivialize things.

That or your DM needs to raise the bar on the encounters somewhat. Multiple waves of enemies, enemies that are spread out and can't all be AOE'd etc.

Coidzor
2010-11-23, 05:30 PM
I'm not even really using wildshape for anything other than a good fly speed and some AC; it's just being the only full caster in the party that seems to do it. And I *like* playing casters. I'm guessing it would be the same issue with a wizard or cleric.

This is probably the biggest problem. You're a tier one running around with a tier 3 and several tier 4-5s. They're playing at a level far below yours level, and it's inhibiting your fun to intentionally and knowningly cripple yourself. Your DM appears to approve of this lower level, hence why he saddled you with naked barbarians when your guys don't even carry backup weaponry and the mooks you slaughtered afterwards didn't have useable equipment for the barbarians (or your party didn't think about it).

Why your DM hasn't discussed this with you, I can't fathom. Does he like narrow spaces where you have to cast on top of the party or keep the party away from the enemy to do your thing as much as the last indepth encounter you described?

So, don't toe the line so perfectly. Make the man adapt.


Why is it that they're the ones that get priority though? There's 3 high-op and 3 low-op players, why should the low-op get priority? (And one of the other high-op players has expressed the same thing. The other one just annoys everyone.)

Hmm. Have you considered going elsewhere for your games, or even splitting into two groups? You said it yourself, you've got someone who whines too much, someone who makes an argument out of everything, someone who annoys everyone, a primadonna, and someone who you're worried is going to turn violent at the drop of a hat.

Seems like there's just too much baggage surrounding everything in addition to the conflicting playstyles. That and a powderkeg.

Person_Man
2010-11-23, 05:44 PM
You've obviously spent some time reading about optimization online, and that's great. But keep in mind that there are many gamers who do not. I've seen many games where Tier 1 classes picked piss poor spells and used their class abilities poorly. A Druid who turned into house cats and didn't take Natural Spell. A Wizard who spammed Magic Missile and then used a hand crossbow when he ran out of spells. A Cleric who memorized nothing but status removal and defensive spells (and not very good ones) that spent 90% of his rounds healing or hitting things with a mace. And then they complain about how the Fighter is over powered. Trust me, it happens.

Analytica
2010-11-23, 06:29 PM
Why does everyone assume I'm not roleplaying my character anyway? If it weren't a RP issue I'd just switch my class and be done with it; the reason I don't want to is I want to roleplay a druid.

Would an option be something like this, then: let's say the character knows from experience or deduction or intuition that the party will be able to persevere even without her doing significant battlefield control. Because of this, she can instead devote a larger fraction of her prepared spells to very situational non-combat purposes. That is to say, the druid might be more concerned over running into a situation where she cannot purify a defiled forest pond or appease an angry field spirit than whether or not she can stop a hail of arrows. The first are sacred, the second merely profane.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 06:32 PM
So, don't toe the line so perfectly. Make the man adapt.

I would go this route only as a last resort. The DM adapting does no good if the other players are still low-op.

My initial suggestion - send the low-op guys to these boards so we can pimp their sheets - remains unaddressed. (Or any boards, really.)

Coidzor
2010-11-23, 06:32 PM
Would an option be something like this, then: let's say the character knows from experience or deduction or intuition that the party will be able to persevere even without her doing significant battlefield control. Because of this, she can instead devote a larger fraction of her prepared spells to very situational non-combat purposes. That is to say, the druid might be more concerned over running into a situation where she cannot purify a defiled forest pond or appease an angry field spirit than whether or not she can stop a hail of arrows. The first are sacred, the second merely profane.

Considering the problem is between feeling useless or making others feel useless and having them yell at her in combat...

Keld Denar
2010-11-23, 06:41 PM
Wait, Warkitty...I seem to remember no fewer than 4 threads started by you in the last month or two asking for optimization advise for this very druid. Am I wrong here? In the last one, you were looking for ways to reduce metamagic costs so you could abuse persistant buffs and use reach spell for Poison more readily.

All that, and you are concerned about being too good? I mean, don't get me wrong...druid is strong right outa the gate. But asking for optimization advice like that and then lamenting the fact that you are that much stronger than your party, thats kinda like stoking the fireplace and then burning your hand on the kettle handle and wondering how it could have gotten so hot.

Whats the deal here?

Psyren
2010-11-23, 06:45 PM
Actually, I think he wanted Reach Spell to heal/buff in combat; which makes sense, because casting at melee range in Pathfinder is extremely hard.

His party was also level 5 if I remember right

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-23, 07:02 PM
Maybe the DM should throw harder encounters at you. That way you have to bring out the boom boom to survive, and the rest of the party will likely have more to do than just cleanup afterwards. In the campaign I'm in, my wizard can change the course of a battle with his delicious second and third level spells, but instead of ending the encounter he just made it winnable.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-23, 08:29 PM
I built a controller with the idea that it would make it easier for the non-casters to be useful as well. Turns out I can *still* dominate an encounter without trying.

There's a reason Battlefield Control wizard is called God. It's simply a rather powerful archetype. You're only using 1-2 spells per encounter? The wizard's spell slots don't hinder him much because he only needs a couple of spells to lock down an encounter. It's easy to not break a caster; it's harder to not break a battlefield control caster, and harder to not break a control caster with "ridiculous wisdom".


Not really. I'm just feeling like my options are "Go Boom-Boom! I win!" or "sit around doing 2d6 of damage while the barbarian is doing 3d6+str and tripping people." I'd be happiest if everyone could have a good Boom option, honestly. Failing that, I'd at least like to not force anyone to take a backseat to me without myself fading into the background.
If I'm supposed to be playing heroic fantasy, why can't I unleash my fun physics-breaking spells instead of plodding along playing a support role?

I'd just like to, you know, play a fun character with the whole I can tap into nature and mess you up feel. I'm not trying to break the game, but it gets a little annoying having to try to not break the game, while not turning myself into a glorified wand of energy damage.
You're imposing too many constraints for the problem to be feasibly solved. You want to unleash your power and mess up the enemies. However, you don't want to blast. And you want your power to enter the nebulously defined zone between "fun" and "broken" and remain there. You value damage as a metric enough to avoid a buffing role based on its low damage, but don't value it enough to become a blaster. You want the game to be within your idea of not-broken yet you want everyone to have a Boom option. You want to be in the foreground but not in the front. If you want this problem to be solvable, you're going to have to let something go.

Gnaeus
2010-11-23, 08:33 PM
Take some item crafting feats. Start with arms/armor.

Spend your gold and XP crafting gear for the weakest player in the group, then the next weakest, etc.

Eventually, you will be a level behind, with feats devoted to crafting, below WBL, while the sub-optimal players are decked out in shiny new gear. You can reach a level where you don't blow them away.

Edit, sorry, pf, no xp costs. It still works, you just aren't a level behind.

Yahzi
2010-11-23, 08:46 PM
Not wanting to be a part of a group seems to be, which is rather evident from the player's choice in class, and how he wants to play it.
You know, the Druid class doesn't come with a sticker that says, "Playing this class means you want to render the rest of the party irrelevant."

In fact, as presented in the PHB, the Druid class is just one of many viable options.

What the OP is complaining about is that it is not, in fact, just one of many viable options; but instead, is vastly overpowered. The OP is pointing out that the Druid class is broken.

We all know this to be true; you've even conceded it. Yet you blame the player.

Is it possible for you to perhaps blame the game for its broken bits, instead of blaming the victims of those broken bits?

Yahzi
2010-11-23, 08:49 PM
I'm not trying to break the game
There is, in fact, a simple solution.

Donate %30 of your XP to "Mother Nature."

As long as you are 2/3 level of the rest of the group, you should be able to do your best and still not out-shine them. If not, simply up the donation to %50.

Given that you recognize the Druid class is over-powered, just play a lower-level druid; and everything's fine.

(The original AD&D had different rates of advancement for different classes, so this is just resurrecting a old rule.)

Warlawk, the same advice works for you. People handicap themselves in golf and bowling all the time; why not in D&D, for exactly the same reasons?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-23, 08:56 PM
You know, the Druid class doesn't come with a sticker that says, "Playing this class means you want to render the rest of the party irrelevant."

In fact, as presented in the PHB, the Druid class is just one of many viable options.
Yet WarKitty was quite familiar with the internet D&D community and presumably the reputation druids have (and, at the very least, the reputation D&D casters have). He's hardly the sort of fiend TheMeMan is portraying, but he wasn't an innocent novice that simply stumbled into an unlabeled hole. He underestimated the difficulty of bringing a druid in line with the rest of the party, but the difficulty was still foreseen.

As unpalatable as it seems, OP, the only solution I can think of (besides my rather unhelpful suggestion to recalibrate your expectations) is a direct self-nerf of the type Yahzi has just put forth. Straight-up be a lower-level character. Give away your entire share of the loot to sustainable development projects. Maybe randomize your spell selection some days. If you're going to have to "to try to not break the game", might as well go about it with gusto.

Dralnu
2010-11-23, 09:05 PM
You like being a controller and you like the fluff of a druid. There's nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately, as you very well knew from the beginning, both things are very strong in D&D 3.5. You just underestimated how much out of the box T1 a druid is. Now you know.

As others said, there's more balanced classes out there that fulfill the role you want with similar fluff, but you don't want to be those classes, you want to be a druid controller. So really, the only way to "balance" yourself with those limitations is to start browsing through sources like the SpC for fun but less powerful control spells and start using those instead. I've done things like this with the Wizard class. You can be a controller with just evocation spells! Less effective, but arguably more fun.

If you don't want to change to a less broken class and don't want to gimp your preferred tactics but still insist you're unhappy being 'too good', 3.5 isn't for you. You already know full well that 3.5 is broken in that regard. Maybe try 4e instead.

Ungvar
2010-11-23, 09:11 PM
I really think no useful advice can be given until we know more about exactly why Warkitty is dominating. He said earlier that he hadn't been in melee since level 2. If that really is the case, then the problem might very well be the DM. Granted, casters don't wade into the thick of combat, but that should make them all the more attractive targets to hungry monsters looking for an easy meal.

An ogre's club upside the head while you're trying to cast does wonders to level the playing field.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-23, 09:16 PM
Also, what third level spells are destroying everything?

Keld Denar
2010-11-23, 09:17 PM
Judging by previous threads...Poison?

Ungvar
2010-11-23, 09:22 PM
Judging by previous threads...Poison?

That's not what I'd call "battlefield control", and you also have to be in melee (basically) to deliver the touch attack required.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 09:42 PM
I'm guessing it's stuff like Entangle, Hurricane Blast, Sleet Storm etc.

Coidzor
2010-11-23, 09:55 PM
Wall of Vermin or something managed to get one of the fighters' panties in a twist for preventing him from getting at the enemy to hit them with sword when there were two fronts on the battlefield which weren't sealed up by the wall of vermin.

So, really, multiple issues at play here, such that it's probably a bit of everything.

wayfare
2010-11-23, 10:06 PM
I'm in a similar situation -- a 2nd level druid approaching 3rd who focuses on summoning. I built my character with high Int and Str and neglected Con and Dex...and I got exactly what I built: a solid combatant with powerful magic and lots of pets to set of flanks or trip attacks, who also doubles as a skillmonkey.

The Prestige Ranger might be an option for you -- I think you'll still end up with decent spellcasting (access to 6th level spells if you go 5 Druid 15 Prestige ranger), but you loose out on wildshape exploits. I'm considering it, but its an investment.

RP always gives good options too -- perhaps, despite being "the squishy caster" you put yourself in dangerous situations and require frequent rescuing.

Suggest some multi-classing for your allies.

Let your animal companion die (probably rescuing you) and don't summon another one.

Focusing on control isn't the best idea to be underpowered -- its generally agreed that control spells are among the best spells. Wading into battle with flame blade and produce flame is more dangerous for you (making it risky and fun), but still emphasizes your mystic mojo.

Mojo_Rat
2010-11-23, 10:46 PM
To be honest i am not sure Why there are problems unless you really managed to dosproportionately jack your Wisdom up. Although your level of power imbalance may be due to level. Ie if your at higher levels where melee types have been surpassed. Although to be honest i would find it hard in PF to say make a bad fighter without deliberately attempting to do so.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 11:08 PM
Ok wow. Here's a more complete description:

My biggest mistake was probably that I overestimated when the tier system really kicks in. All the examples I've seen have been of high-level play. I figured, we're ending the campaign at a max of level 11, probably earlier. It shouldn't be an issue. Obviously I was wrong.

Part of it may also be the DM playing it wrong. I've already noted to some of the other party that his monsters tend to hit whatever's closest, whether or not that's the best idea. Our DM also thinks that melee is absolutely great.

Our alchemist has noticed the same issue. Hopefully it may get better, as the two barbarians hadn't realized they were allowed non-core stuff. The one asked me to send him guides on optimization. (The players are siblings, so I'm assuming what's sent to one gets to both.) Our other fighter...is going to either calm down or get booted fairly soon. Which leaves the ranger and sorc/fighter. Sorc should get second level spells soon, has some nice ones picked out. Ranger is fine already. So with luck maybe the problem will resolve itself.

Coidzor
2010-11-23, 11:58 PM
The weird thing is that it usually is about level 9-11 when things are usually supposed to start becoming an issue, hence why E6 attempts to end up about the power level of ECL 8 and E8 is more along the lines of ECL 10. (the extra feats accounting for the cushion of 2 ghost levels, at least, that's what the threads where I've seen it discussed seemed to indicate, that the power level was a bit above the level cap due to the feats)

That definitely sounds like hopeful news, and I wish you good luck with that since I can't really think of anything further to say.

huttj509
2010-11-24, 01:34 AM
The weird thing is that it usually is about level 9-11 when things are usually supposed to start becoming an issue, hence why E6 attempts to end up about the power level of ECL 8 and E8 is more along the lines of ECL 10. (the extra feats accounting for the cushion of 2 ghost levels, at least, that's what the threads where I've seen it discussed seemed to indicate, that the power level was a bit above the level cap due to the feats)

That definitely sounds like hopeful news, and I wish you good luck with that since I can't really think of anything further to say.

Well, it can vary.

I remember a recent thread discussion on when casters started dominating and it pretty much could be summed up as "depends on group and players, but probably round 4th level spells or so in general".

But yeah, split can easily happen sooner unless the melees are making a concerted effort to keep up or the caster is making a concerted effort to hold back (Such as Gandalf, he was really just an escort for if/when something popped up the men couldn't handle, he was the DMPC :-) ).

JaronK
2010-11-24, 01:35 AM
Heh, this is why I tend to refer to lower level examples when talking about tiers (Alter Self, Druid Animal Companion, Glitterdust) on occasion just to make sure people realize it's not just at high levels. But yeah, good that your group will try to work on this.

JaronK

Earthwalker
2010-11-24, 04:57 AM
I was going to add one suggetion on this, to give the all the players a level of perspective. This is something more for the DM to do but here it is any way.

My idea introduce a artifact into the campaign for a breif time. Said artifact has one strange power (or just make this an effect in an area the group goes to). This power is to swap minds from the people close to it.

When the effect hits the DM just annouces everyone pass your character sheet to the player on the right. Then run a couple of non lethal encounters and let people see how everyone else sees and deals with combat.

Maybe do another swap. Everyone gets the character sheet on the left.

Then return to normal.

It might be quiet enlightening for the group to see things differently like this.

I would keep the character personalities intact. So you are still playing your characters personality, but all character abilties / knowledges pass with the sheet.

I can't decide if this idea is stupid, clever or just crazy.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-24, 05:50 AM
I was going to add one suggetion on this, to give the all the players a level of perspective. This is something more for the DM to do but here it is any way.

My idea introduce a artifact into the campaign for a breif time. Said artifact has one strange power (or just make this an effect in an area the group goes to). This power is to swap minds from the people close to it.

When the effect hits the DM just annouces everyone pass your character sheet to the player on the right. Then run a couple of non lethal encounters and let people see how everyone else sees and deals with combat.

Maybe do another swap. Everyone gets the character sheet on the left.

Then return to normal.

It might be quiet enlightening for the group to see things differently like this.

I would keep the character personalities intact. So you are still playing your characters personality, but all character abilties / knowledges pass with the sheet.

I can't decide if this idea is stupid, clever or just crazy.The funny thing is, in many groups the same player will be the most effective throughout the (worryingly arbitrary and fiat-heavy*) ordeal. Saph's "Skill>Build>Class" holds true.

*Maybe it was all just a dream?

true_shinken
2010-11-24, 08:26 AM
I haven't been in melee since second level. It's being a full caster in a noncaster party.

Well, it looks like a DM thing to me. You should be surprised every now and then, take a few hits. My party's Artificer now and again gets the short end of the stick - he gets surprised and one-shoted and everyone else goes 'omgwtfbbq'. He's not even a caster per se (though it could be argued that Artificers are even better than casters for the sheer versatility), though he is still tier 1. Guy even multiclassed into Samurai to be able to hold his ground with Iaijutsu Focus (well, he had fluff reasons as well, but it was mostly 'I need a real weapon and real damage').
Spells/infusions are resources to be spent. If a DM wants the noncasters to feel relevant, he should create situations here and there where the casters are out of spells. It's not impossible, specially when a player is indeed playing nice as you are.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 08:48 AM
Our alchemist has noticed the same issue. Hopefully it may get better, as the two barbarians hadn't realized they were allowed non-core stuff. The one asked me to send him guides on optimization. (The players are siblings, so I'm assuming what's sent to one gets to both.) Our other fighter...is going to either calm down or get booted fairly soon. Which leaves the ranger and sorc/fighter. Sorc should get second level spells soon, has some nice ones picked out. Ranger is fine already. So with luck maybe the problem will resolve itself.

As an aside, has your Sorc/Fighter considered Battle Sorcerer? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) This is actually a rare situation where it could be an improvement.

Ungvar
2010-11-24, 10:05 AM
Ok wow. Here's a more complete description:

My biggest mistake was probably that I overestimated when the tier system really kicks in. All the examples I've seen have been of high-level play. I figured, we're ending the campaign at a max of level 11, probably earlier. It shouldn't be an issue. Obviously I was wrong.

Part of it may also be the DM playing it wrong. I've already noted to some of the other party that his monsters tend to hit whatever's closest, whether or not that's the best idea. Our DM also thinks that melee is absolutely great.

Our alchemist has noticed the same issue. Hopefully it may get better, as the two barbarians hadn't realized they were allowed non-core stuff. The one asked me to send him guides on optimization. (The players are siblings, so I'm assuming what's sent to one gets to both.) Our other fighter...is going to either calm down or get booted fairly soon. Which leaves the ranger and sorc/fighter. Sorc should get second level spells soon, has some nice ones picked out. Ranger is fine already. So with luck maybe the problem will resolve itself.

I'm glad it looks like the situation might get better, but I'm still curious about what spells you were using that were completely dominating encounters to the point that the rest of the party felt they weren't even needed.