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randomhero00
2010-11-23, 02:32 PM
I have a DM that...tends to railroad a lot. Sometimes it can really be poor roleplay/game decisions. What's the best way to approach this? Reminding her of rules doesn't help much because its her homebrewed world (which I do love for the most part.)

I don't want to quit the group. They're all friends, plus I have no where else to fill my addiction (I've been looking for other games for months :smallfurious:).

So since I can't fallback on rules, I'm not sure how to convince her. What do you guys do in such situations? Occasionally I can out logic the decision, but not usually as she can be stubborn...

Sipex
2010-11-23, 02:37 PM
Er, so what's the problem? She's railroading too much?

Give an example if you don't mind, I'm a little bit confused.

Jan Mattys
2010-11-23, 02:41 PM
My advice: learn to cooperate instead of pointing out mistakes.

Basically: roll with it and make the most out of the gaming experience. And stop dreamin about what could be but is not.

D&D is a cooperative game with a referee who is only to give away free fun, and takes the whole responsability for mistakes and failures on his (often not so large) shoulders.

Do not fight. Help him/her. You will grow better together with time. Addressing the problem too early can only bring bad news to your table.

At least that's my experience. After all, a misused rule will never break a game, while a bad argument often can break a group.

arrowhen
2010-11-23, 02:42 PM
Yeah, just saying "railroading" and "poor decisions" without giving examples is meaninglessly vague.

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 02:48 PM
Sorry, I know it may sound odd but I don't like to speak ill (specifics anyways) of friends. Not to mention naming specific incidences may identify me if they're reading this and cause more trouble.

Believe me or don't.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 02:50 PM
Here's an example then: The DM provides both a helm of opposite alignment and a compulsion-cursed deck of many things to a level 5 party. With no way to deal with the results of either.

Sipex
2010-11-23, 02:59 PM
Generic specifications will get generic advice unfortunately.

I say, if most of the group (ie: 51% or more) is unhappy with it then agree to talk to the DM about what you don't like. Don't be hostile about it, just explain that <insert situation> isn't fun for you.

If it's just you then...learn to look past it.

Fallbot
2010-11-23, 03:11 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean - whether it's railroading or bad rule calls or both that you have a problem with, so sorry if this advice isn't at all relevant.

I played under one DM who was pretty bad about railroading (to be fair he was new), and I found that talking to him out of game about what I was interested in and what I'd like to see in the game helped a huge amount. It turned out that he was quite open to letting people do what they wanted, he just wasn't able to adapt on the fly well enough to let them do it. As long as you have him a lot of warning about what you wanted to do, he was very accommodating. So even though I still had very little control in-game, being involved out of game made it feel like I had more options. Not ideal by a long shot, but it was a good compromise for everyone. Maybe doing something similar would help you?

valadil
2010-11-23, 03:18 PM
In general, I suggest talking to the GM privately and outside of the game. It's just rude to stress out your GM while they're already running a game or if they're in front of other players.

I actually had a conversation with another GM about this pretty recently. He's a chronic railroader and he knows it. I've been trying to get a little more flexibility out of him for years, but this was the first time we spoke about it directly. I pretty much told him that railroad and sandbox are both valid choices and I respect the choices he's made and have enjoyed the games he's run. But it's time he shake things up a little for variety's sake and if he's going to try something new, why not a game that takes player narrative into account. He actually agreed with the suggestion in theory, but was worried that it would be too much work to write around the players instead of to write a story set in stone. I told him about my experiences writing around the PCs and that I actually find it easier if I let them give me the plot lines. I only have to write continuations of the plots and NPCs they give me instead of inventing them out of thin air. He still seemed intrigued and claims he'll look into it for his next game, but it remains to be seen if that actually happens.

The other point I made was in direct response to one of his comments about the gaming group. He said that we don't do a lot of deep roleplaying in this group. I agreed with him, because we don't. I also pointed out that I do more with my character when I'm given room to do so. If I feel like the game will be identical no matter which character I bring, I have no incentive to bring an interesting character. If I can leave a mark on the world, I'll do what I can to make my mark unique. I think he agreed with me in theory, but we're still waiting to see if it actually happens in practice.

I mention that last point because it wasn't an argument I brought to his attention. It was a response to his critique of the group. It got through because he raised the question. Had I approached him with that thought, the GM may have been less receptive. Anyway, you should think about why you want a less railroaded game and be ready to spout off the benefits if it ever comes up in conversation.

bloodtide
2010-11-23, 03:34 PM
I have a DM that...tends to railroad a lot.

In general, all you can do is ride the train. Most DMs are of the railroad type, and basic D&D is made this way. If the DM has the adventure 'the Terror of Saltmarsh', then obviously your character must go to Saltmarsh. The same way if a DM had taken hours to make-up the elven town of Dea, and your character just walks by and does not even look, then you can expect the DM to lay down some train tracks that will take you back to town.





Sometimes it can really be poor roleplay/game decisions. What's the best way to approach this?

'Poor' discussion are a bit vague. Role play is hard to say anything about. The NPC's do something that you don't like, is normal. Most NPC's should be at least a bit 'standoffish' to an adventure. And if it's things like 'every store is run by a thief', well that is not uncommon in 2010 either.

And 'Game Decisions' like House Rules? Most DM's are fine with you just asking and/or talking about them. But, for the most part, DM's don't change house rules much. The obvious is that one abusive spell, that the DM just bans. Nothing you can say will lift that ban.




So since I can't fallback on rules, I'm not sure how to convince her. What do you guys do in such situations? Occasionally I can out logic the decision, but not usually as she can be stubborn...

The best thing you can do, is simply hop on the train. Try to avoid bumping heads. Yes it goes against your 'rights' as a human being, but just do it. Just pretend that it does not matter if you give up your 'God given rights' to play a game. So even if you'd think your character would to X, just do Y.

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 03:38 PM
Thanks for the advice so far.

Also I thought of something I could say along the lines of the problem. Part of it is that shes running an epic game (see my other thread). She thinks the epic spellcasters (lol) are the ones that are underpowered and me and my friend playing basic melee are overpowered because we can do a bit more damage and have high AC.:smallmad:

So whenever us melee come upon a situation where we could really contribute she railroads us off that path. Smacks us down with some contrived super monster that the casters can somehow deal with easily but us melee flail in the wind.

edit: she's one of those types that bans ToB because she thinks its the most overpowered book in DnD....

Sipex
2010-11-23, 03:39 PM
This has been brought up with her?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-11-23, 03:40 PM
Here's an example then: The DM provides both a helm of opposite alignment and a compulsion-cursed deck of many things to a level 5 party. With no way to deal with the results of either.
Are you in the same game? :smallconfused:

Anyhow, the first step for the OP's to take is to ask his friends about whether they're bothered by the railroading.

If yes, then you should all have a sitdown with the DM to express your concerns. A communicating party is a happy party.

If no, then you have to either grin and bear it or leave the game. You can mention to the DM that you would prefer greater player autonomy in her game and hope for the best but I've found DMs rarely change their style so dramatically for one player.

Remember: whenever you see a probleem with a game you need to first ask yourself whether the problem is real or if it is just you. If it is just you then it is unjust for the game to alter to fit your personal preferences at the expense of everyone else.

WarKitty
2010-11-23, 03:42 PM
Are you in the same game? :smallconfused:

No just providing a generic example. Thought it might help out for people to have a situation to argue about, then we could generalize stuff. :smallredface:

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 03:55 PM
This has been brought up with her?

Oh yes, its been brought up. Its quite amusing in a way. She has these homebrew classes that are overpowered (but doesn't think they are), but considers ToB way too overpowered and melee in general.

Thing is, we usually only have 1 encounter, so the casters go nova everytime. I just don't understand how she doesn't see it. Sure, us melee have better hps and defense and such, but the casters rarely get targeted anyway because of range, and defensive spells.

edit PS no I am not the only one that feels this way, at least 2 others do. But we are all such close friends that we hate to bring up any conflict. I am usually the only one willing to argue with the DM. The others are practically against bringing it up because they hate conflict (hey girls are nice but they come with their problems lol). no offense meant to women heh..

bloodtide
2010-11-23, 04:08 PM
epic game

This is your problem right here. The average Epic game is just a bad game...all the rules just break down. To run a good epic game you need a very good and very experienced DM. Without that, the game can be bad....




So whenever us melee come upon a situation where we could really contribute she railroads us off that path. Smacks us down with some contrived super monster that the casters can somehow deal with easily but us melee flail in the wind.

Every monster? All the time? You might be able to talk about this.

The most obvious problem in an Epic game is the pure insanity of the numbers, plus the actions and such. Magic is easy:cast a spell and do damage. But melee can drive poor Epic DM's crazy. Epic character's just can do so much and can have such overwhelming combos that a lot of DM's can't keep up. The typical 'I take a free action to do x, and a move action to do X, and then take my bonus move X to activate Y and then use C and the same time and do 150 damage' can leave a lot of DM's scratching their heads(and they are still way back on was the first action a legal free action or not). Many poor epic Dm hate it when a melee type just takes out a monster with a trick...even worse a trick they don't understand and can't counter.

This is why a lot of DM's avoid Epic games.

To be a good Epic Dm you need to know all the rules at the top of your head, what happens to the Ac of a prone character? Is standing up an Aoa? What is a swift action? The best experience is to play the game at non epic levels, until it is all well known and second nature.



What might work--

1)Try to 'tone down' your melee, at least on the surface. Switch weapons from a d12 damage to a d8, for example(not a big change) or otherwise try to 'look' less 'powerful' in her eyes.

2)Avoid complex combat, go for 'I hit it with my axe'.

3)Make rule sheets for everyone. This is a bit of work, but can work out great. Type up all the melee rules and things like action types and make nice papers, note cards or such. Fill in all the rules about each topic. And best of all, make your own personal abilities the highlight. If your character uses the trip action, make a whole Trip sheet. And best of all, including the counters and other 'negative' notes. And don't forget the personal ones, where you have already done the math for each thing(your personal prone AC, personal underwater Ac, and so forth, for example). The idea is to get all the rules right out on the table, and make things easier fir the DM. So when you go to do a combo, they can just glance down at the rule note card

Kaun
2010-11-23, 04:09 PM
Run your own game the way you think a game should be run and invite her to play.

If your way is actualy better hopefully she will learn by example.

Or reroll a wizard and steam roll all of her encounters.