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Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-23, 02:41 PM
I'm currently playing a Cleric that focuses on Necromancy/Enchantment. While this works notoriously well against most living opponents and undead, I seems to be rather useless against Plants and Constructs. Since these two types have basically dominated out current adventure I feel that I should be better prepared. I'm looking for spells that are usefull against those types (damaging/AoE) without being so overly-specific that they cannot be used against anything else.

Ideally I would like to find one good damaging/buff spell for each spell level, but spells that work to incapacitate said creatures re usefull as well. So far I have come up with: 4th - Divine Power; 5th - Earth Reaver; 8th - Firestorm. Any sourcebooks printed by WotC are open to me.

Thank you for any help that can be offered.

randomhero00
2010-11-23, 02:51 PM
Gain a bonus domain. I think there's a plant domain that allows you to turn them.

Constructs (Golems I take it?)...casters just aren't supposed to be good against them. if your DM is throwing a ton at you, maybe ask him/her to tone it down.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 03:00 PM
What level are you?

If you want to focus on Necromancy, the Divine Magician ACF from Complete Mage will let you trade in a domain to learn necromancy spells from the wizard list as cleric spells. This lets you learn enervation, which is effective against tons of enemy types, including plants.

Mordokai
2010-11-23, 03:08 PM
If he's throwing constructs at him it's because he's too damn good at what he does :smalltongue: Asking him to stop will likely make it worse, if anything :smallbiggrin:

There is a prestige class in Complete Divine, the contemplative. You get bonus domain on first and sixth level of it, choosable from your deity or alignment. If you could get Plant domain, that would go a long way. As for the constructs, at least as far as golems go, most of them have a weakness to certain spells. Ask your DM for appropriate Knowledge checks(usually Arcana), so you can identify them. That should go some way towards making your life easier.

Diarmuid
2010-11-23, 03:14 PM
From SRD
Magic Stone
Spritual Weapon
Searing Light
Flame Strike
Slay Living
Blade Barrier
Harm

Summon Monster/Undead lines
Inflict Wounds line

From SpC
Light of Lunia
Nimbus of Light
Deific Vengeance
Light of Mercuria
Blade of Pain and Fear
Clutch of Orcus
Darkfire
Energy Vortex
Slashing Darkness
Castigate
Dragon Breath
Earth Reaver

Some of those probably are of specific spell types that plants or constructs might be immune to, but there really are a ton of options that dont take very long to search for.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-23, 04:20 PM
What level are you?

If you want to focus on Necromancy, the Divine Magician ACF from Complete Mage will let you trade in a domain to learn necromancy spells from the wizard list as cleric spells. This lets you learn enervation, which is effective against tons of enemy types, including plants.

I'm level 9. I considered Divine Magician, but I get all the Wiz spells I need from the Enchantment and Deathbound domains, sometimes at lower levels than a Wiz.

Psyren
2010-11-23, 04:24 PM
I'm level 9. I considered Divine Magician, but I get all the Wiz spells I need from the Enchantment and Deathbound domains, sometimes at lower levels than a Wiz.

You don't get Enervation from either of those, and fits your requirements - necromancy, works on plants, works on almost everything else.

If you go Cloistered Cleric you get a free domain to trade in. plus even more useful spells.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-23, 05:23 PM
You don't get Enervation from either of those, and fits your requirements - necromancy, works on plants, works on almost everything else.

If you go Cloistered Cleric you get a free domain to trade in. plus even more useful spells.

I'll see if my DM would allow a switch to Divine Magician, I'll probably trade in Deathbound. Switching to cloistered cleric might be a bit much since it would require a switch of all of my gear as well. Based on the wording, I can cast those spells in any slot, not just my domain slot, right?

Psyren
2010-11-23, 06:48 PM
Correct, the ACF says nothing about needing your domain slots for these spells. (You have a remaining domain vying for those slots anyway)

Where is the Enchantment domain from? I can't be sure until I look at it, but if it's anything like Domination then you're better off keeping Deathbound and dropping that.

Fizban
2010-11-23, 10:40 PM
Feats would also be good to know.

I'll second Darkfire. My own experience hasn't been great so far (not enough attacks and two natural 1's in the same fight :smallfurious:), but I'm sure it can be good. By itself you can full attack and TWF with ranged touch attacks, dealing up to 5d6 for each one that hits. Empower and Maximize work wonderfully, and as always Divine Metamagic means you can use them even earlier than normal. If you shell out some cash, a Ring of Mystic fire could boost damage for the whole spell, as could a Lesser Rod of Empower or Maximize.

Just using cash, for 14,000gp you can buy an LRM to maximize 5d6 into 30 damage per attack. Then get a Haste buff from your Wizard or an item and you'll have 90 damage per round, or more if you can land your touch attacks through untrained TWF penalties. I suggest this course because 1: Darkfire is awesome, and 2: you can save the rest of your spells for Enchantment and Necromancy.

If you want more direct spells, Lucent Lance is pretty nice. It's a higher level for Clerics so you can't use it yet, but it deals untyped damage with no save and blinds the target for one round, also with no save. Sound Lance is also higher level than normal (at 4th), but it's within your reach and deals decent damage- constructs have notoriously low fort saves due to their lack of constitution, so the save for half shouldn't be a problem.

For more buff spells, Divine Favor (PHB) at 1st, and Brambles (SC) at 2nd. Divine favor is just a couple extra points of attack and damage, but it scales and it's cheap as a 1st level spell, so it's worth casting if you've got the time. Branbles adds +1/level do your attacks with a club or staff. Using these with Divine Power should make you pretty badass, but if the rest of you party has 22 strength and attacks without warning like mine does, Clericzilla doesn't have time to buff up and be competitive. Another re-usable spell is Dragon Breath (5th for Clerics), which gives you a breath weapon for 1 round/level. You can't make multiple attacks like Darkfire, but it hits a whole area, and you can pick damage or save/lose effects.

Finally, you might try summoning. Aside from the basic Summon Monster you could use Conjure Ice Beast from Forstburn to get big engulfing monsters with cold damage on all their attacks. You could try Summon Hound Archon or Lesser Planar Exchange to enter melee without risk to yourself, though you still lose your actions concentrating or being replaced.

Runestar
2010-11-24, 05:01 AM
Constructs (Golems I take it?)...casters just aren't supposed to be good against them.

Please look at the list of wizard conjuration spells and take note of how many of them ignore sr. It's their way of saying "Screw you!!!" to golems. :smallcool:

LordBlades
2010-11-24, 05:03 AM
Fleshripper(BoVD) is also a decent 3rd level damage spell.
Ranged Touch for 1d8/CL damage.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-24, 05:25 AM
Where is the Enchantment domain from?
Enchantment is from SC and it adds the various control effects, like Dominate and Monstrous Thrall, along with Spell Focus (Enchantment).


Feats would also be good to know.
So far I'm a Human Paragon 3/Cleric 3/Bone Knight 2 with a flaw.

Level 1: Shadow Weave Magic, Maximize Spell, Tomb-Tainted Soul.
Level 3: Mastery of Day and Night
Level 5(from Human Paragon): Scribe Scroll
Level 6: Corpsecrafter
Level 9: Undead Leadership

Basically, the character concept is a battlefield cleric that was cast out of his clergy for unspeakable acts, namely raising the bodies of fallen enemies/allies to strengthen the army. He is seen as evil but does not believe himself to be evil, simply one that believes ends justify the means. His choice of feats represent a growing detatchment with regards to the living. Shadow Weave, Mastery of D&N, and Corpsecrafter are the manifestations of his deluded beliefs tainting his divine powers. He is currently LE with no clear diety, but he is involved with both the churches of Nerull and Wee Jas.

I hope this explains some of the choices. Also, I will be avoiding DMM Persist, etc as this is a rework of a previous character that ran around all day with Consumptive Field, Righteous Might, and Divine Power always on. By the time I became a Necropolitan created by a Dread Necromancer Cohort with a bunch of Corpsecrafter line feats I was given a talking to.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 08:57 AM
Enchantment is from SC and it adds the various control effects, like Dominate and Monstrous Thrall, along with Spell Focus (Enchantment).

I still don't see it, but it seems identical to the "Domination" domain in the same book. Is your Spell Compendium in english?

I'm pretty sure they're the same domain in any case... but honestly, I still have to advise you drop that and keep Deathbound. Spell Focus (Enchantment) can't hold a candle to raising your reanimation limit by 150%, and the handful of charm spells you get can only be prepared in your domain slot anyway (i.e. one per level.)

Curmudgeon
2010-11-24, 09:26 AM
Spell Focus (Enchantment) can't hold a candle to raising your reanimation limit by 150%
That's +50%, not +150%.
Granted Power: Your limit for creating undead animated with spells increases to three times your caster level instead of the normal two times caster level.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 09:28 AM
That's +50%, not +150%.

2 * 1.5 = 3.

(And if you start a semantic argument over the phrase "raising by," so help me I'm putting you on ignore.)

Curmudgeon
2010-11-24, 09:47 AM
2 * 1.5 = 3.
Multiplying by 1.5 is an increase of 50%, not 150%. Multiplying by 1 (i.e., no change) is an increase of 0%, not 100%. Your +150% figure would mean you'd get an arbitrarily large percentage increase (+100% each time) by repeatedly multiplying by 1.

Obviously, that isn't right.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 09:49 AM
Semantics

Well, it was fun reading your posts while it lasted.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-11-24, 09:53 AM
Have you thought about using divine power and just using a weapon?

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-24, 11:06 AM
I still don't see it, but it seems identical to the "Domination" domain in the same book. Is your Spell Compendium in english?

I'm pretty sure they're the same domain in any case... but honestly, I still have to advise you drop that and keep Deathbound. Spell Focus (Enchantment) can't hold a candle to raising your reanimation limit by 150%, and the handful of charm spells you get can only be prepared in your domain slot anyway (i.e. one per level.)
You'll have to excuse me, I just checked SC for myself. It is Domination, my DM (along with his SC) is Japanese, I believe I misremembered or miscopied what he told me.

The reason I chose Deathbound was mostly for the spells since the increase in # of undead is about half that of a Desecrate Spell and I still can't control more than 4HD/Level. I usually just make a few scrolls of Desecrate and Animate Dead/Create Undead round with me.


As for just using a weapon with Divine Power, I'm cuurently behind by 2CL so I can't cast it until 9th. But I'm currently using a +1 Corrosive Scythe the problem was a CR10 golem atack that hit me with 4 tentacles that dealt about 20 damage with each successful hit + con damage. If my Animated/Corpsecrafted T-Rex didn't soak up about 200 damage from it we would have most likely had TPK. One of us was killed in 1 turn anyway.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 11:12 AM
The reason I chose Deathbound was mostly for the spells since the increase in # of undead is about half that of a Desecrate Spell and I still can't control more than 4HD/Level. I usually just make a few scrolls of Desecrate and Animate Dead/Create Undead round with me.

But that's the beauty of it - the domain stacks with Desecrate. (Or more accurately, Desecrate stacks with it.) This will give you a total of 6HD per CL of controlling power - enough to field an entire legion. That's bound to be more useful than dominate person 1/day, especially at late levels when everything and their mother is immune to mind-affecting or has will saves out the wazoo. In fact, your big 9th-level ultimate spell - Monstrous Thrall - is suppressed by a first-level spell. Domination is just a bad domain overall.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-24, 11:21 AM
But that's the beauty of it - the domain stacks with Desecrate. (Or more accurately, Desecrate stacks with it.) This will give you a total of 6HD per CL of controlling power - enough to field an entire legion. That's bound to be more useful than dominate person 1/day, especially at late levels when everything and their mother is immune to mind-affecting or has will saves out the wazoo. In fact, your big 9th-level ultimate spell - Monstrous Thrall - is suppressed by a first-level spell. Domination is just a bad domain overall.
I had actually come across that stacking calculation, I don't understand the point of making more undead than you can control, though. Doesn't that leave you with 2HD/level of pissed off, uncontrolled undead if you max it out?

On a complete side note, the DM has expressed a desire that I work with a few strong undead rather than a zombie apocalypse in my pocket. As soon as I can I'll be turning humanoid cohorts into intelligent undead and taking class levels to fill my HD cap.

If I take Divine Magician I can most likely get the spells that I want from both of those domains. But I'm interested in how I can kill monsters at higher levels if they will all have high saves?

Psyren
2010-11-24, 11:28 AM
I had actually come across that stacking calculation, I don't understand the point of making more undead than you can control, though. Doesn't that leave you with 2HD/level of pissed off, uncontrolled undead if you max it out?

The idea is to rebuke the extra and control them that way.
And yes, it's far better to have a few strong undead than a weak horde. (Much less dicerolling.)


If I take Divine Magician I can most likely get the spells that I want from both of those domains. But I'm interested in how I can kill monsters at higher levels if they will all have high saves?

Pump your Wisdom, and use spells that don't need saves. (Again, Enervation comes in handy here.) Buff your rotting meatshields and have them kick ass, no save required. You've got lots of options, you're a cleric :smallsmile:

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-24, 11:33 AM
Rebuking makes sense for the extra. Maybe I'll just take the Time Domain, that looks powerful. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm going to assume Time Stop is good. I really have very little experience at higher levels, the highest I've reached is about 13 before the campaign dissolved.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 11:43 AM
Rebuking makes sense for the extra. Maybe I'll just take the Time Domain, that looks powerful. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm going to assume Time Stop is good. I really have very little experience at higher levels, the highest I've reached is about 13 before the campaign dissolved.

Time is excellent (Woo, Improved Initiative! Woo, Contingency!) but remember that Divine Magician will mean giving up a domain. The idea was for you to have Divine Magician and Deathbound, correct?

If you want all three you will need more domains. There are ways to do that, but you've already ruled one out (Cloistered Cleric, the preferred method.)

Gorgondantess
2010-11-24, 11:44 AM
Excuse me, but a caster can take down a construct or plant just as well as it can take out everything else. It just has to do its job properly.
For a cleric, either buff the hell out of your party members and summon things or buff the hell out of yourself and just go to town.
In fact, I'd say you're at an advantage: you know what's coming, so you know exactly what to prepare. Buffing the hell out of yourself and going to town doesn't work so well on things like casters or buckets o' SLA monsters.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-24, 11:51 AM
Time is excellent (Woo, Improved Initiative! Woo, Contingency!) but remember that Divine Magician will mean giving up a domain. The idea was for you to have Divine Magician and Deathbound, correct?

If you want all three you will need more domains. There are ways to do that, but you've already ruled one out (Cloistered Cleric, the preferred method.)

Well, I thought that I could get the deathbound spells through Divine Magician and the fact that I will be raising rather few HD of undead then giving them class levels would make the granted power moot. Plus, by the time I could start using Creatue Undead or Awaken Undead I could grab a level of Contemplative for the extra domain.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-24, 11:54 AM
Excuse me, but a caster can take down a construct or plant just as well as it can take out everything else. It just has to do its job properly.
For a cleric, either buff the hell out of your party members and summon things or buff the hell out of yourself and just go to town.
In fact, I'd say you're at an advantage: you know what's coming, so you know exactly what to prepare. Buffing the hell out of yourself and going to town doesn't work so well on things like casters or buckets o' SLA monsters.

Well, I was the only one left conscious at the end, thanks to Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, and some liberally applied charging.

I can't wait until I awaken my skeletal mouny and give it a few levels of Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce.