Covenant vs. Federation

[An Enemy Spy]

I know there's a new versus thread on here like every week but I'm sick of seeing Imperium versus Galactic Empire all the time. So let's go to two somewhat smaller contenders.

I personally think the the Covies would kick the Federation's ass up and down the Milky Way. While Federation ships could probably hold their own better against the Covenant than the UNSC could, the Covenant would win through sheer numbers. They have the ability to deploy literally hundreds of ships while the Federation only ever seems to be able to muster up about two or three on short notice. And on the ground, it's not even a challenge. Covenant has hordes of smaller aliens capable of overrunning enemy lines, and their more powerful warriors are nothing to sneeze at. On the other side, the Federation just seems to have people armed with phasers and that's about it.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Is this a pre or post Wolf 359 Federation? What about pre or post Dominion War?

[An Enemy Spy]

Let's go with DS9 Trek. Also, the Covenant are where they were before the Schism and the loss of High Charity

[Sipex]

This is pretty tough, I'm a halo fan and not much of a star trek fan but I have friends who have discussed this sort of thing before.

The covenant definitely have more ships but power wise it's hard to base them. They have seemingly similar technology (shields, energy weapons) and I've been told that phasers aren't something to cough at, they simply look simple because they don't need to look complicated.

[AstralFire]

I feel like the Federation would be much, much more effective at utilizing Covenant technology against them than the UNSC could ever be.

[Sipex]

To add, the federation also has teleportation tech the Covenant don't seem to have.

[AstralFire]

Not to mention that, in a pinch, every single Federation ship is capable of time travel.

...

I don't know WHO decided that was a good idea to write in.

[kamikasei]

...the Federation only ever seems to be able to muster up about two or three on short notice.

Let's go with DS9 Trek.
O RLY?
http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad84/Corbanlewis/operation_return_1.jpg (http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad84/Corbanlewis/operation_return_1.jpg)
Ahem. I'm going to go with the twin prongs of "different universes with different tech trees" and "yeah right, like you'll get consistent information about the capabilities of Trek anything".

[An Enemy Spy]

O RLY?
http://jordanhoffman.com/wp-content/uploads/operation_return_1.jpg
Ahem. I'm going to go with the twin prongs of "different universes with different tech trees" and "yeah right, like you'll get consistent information about the capabilities of Trek anything".

Sorry. Picture didn't show up. And yes, I know the Federation has at times brought together huge fleets, but for the most part it seems like the Enterprise is the only ship capable of responding to a threat in time.

[AstralFire]

Seriously. It really strikes me that despite Star Wars having space magic, it tends to be as or more internally consistent than Star Trek. I love Trek, but yeeeeeeesh.

[Sipex]

Sorry. Picture didn't show up. And yes, I know the Federation has at times brought together huge fleets, but for the most part it seems like the Enterprise is the only ship capable of responding to a threat in time.

To be fair, this is because it makes the show more interesting. You should always give leeway for this sort of thing.

[kamikasei]

Sorry. Picture didn't show up. And yes, I know the Federation has at times brought together huge fleets, but for the most part it seems like the Enterprise is the only ship capable of responding to a threat in time.
Dramatic license. Does it make sense? No. Is it much of a basis for a versus thread? Well, I don't think you'll find such a thing in Trek anyway, but even on its own: no.

[The Glyphstone]

Picard would simply invite the Covenant High Prophets to sit down and chat, convincing them to join the Federation over a nice cup of Earl Grey.

[An Enemy Spy]

I've always wondered how it is that Sangheili drink. What with the mouth parts and all.

[Kobold-Bard]

Don't know much at all about the covenant, but during Dominion War era DS9 getting reports of fleets of hundreds of ships being involved in conflicts were not uncommon. Federation space is wide and their non-militant attitude to defending it mean you never see that many ships in one place. However if they become involved in out and out war they can rally an obscene number of ships.

Also; I saw it mentioned above that the Covenant doesn't have transporter technology. If this is true then they won't have developed shields to counter it, meaning the Federation can simply beam captains/other important people off ships, at least at the start. This is a serious disadvantage.

And if all else fails, Voyager can go to Warp 10 and simultaneously slap/stab/shoot every member of the Covenant :smallcool:

[An Enemy Spy]

To be honest, I haven't watched DS9 since I was 5. I've basically been watching TNG lately so I probably have a different view of the Federation than you do.

[Sipex]

Also; I saw it mentioned above that the Covenant doesn't have transporter technology. If this is true then they won't have developed shields to counter it, meaning the Federation can simply beam captains/other important people off ships, at least at the start. This is a serious disadvantage.

Yeah, this is a good point, I was just thinking about beaming things onto ships (ie: bombs) but I forgot that they tend to do this sort of thing a lot as well.

I think the covenant is big enough to weather this before adapting (capturing a ship and reverse engineering it's tech) but it would be a serious blow.

edit: Especially if they managed to get any of the prophets

[Kobold-Bard]

To be honest, I haven't watched DS9 since I was 5. I've basically been watching TNG lately so I probably have a different view of the Federation than you do.

Fair enough, the Federation does look very different from those two viewpoints.

[An Enemy Spy]

Once a Federation team is aboard the ship they would quickly get taken down by teams of Kig-Yar and Sangheili probably. I just can't see Federation troops beating Covenant ones.

[Sipex]

Once a Federation team is aboard the ship they would quickly get taken down by teams of Kig-Yar and Sangheili probably. I just can't see Federation troops beating Covenant ones.

Oh yeah, no arguement there, I think the covies are well enough armed that they'd win in a troop battle. Phasers are effective but even if they can cut through shields (we have no idea if they can) there are still more covvies than humans so we'd lose simply due to numbers.

We're thinking teleportation would be used to capture important commanders or to sabotage enemy ships.

[An Enemy Spy]

Don't shields block teleportation? I've never been clear on that.

[Kobold-Bard]

Don't shields block teleportation? I've never been clear on that.

In Star Trek, yes. But my point was: why would you design your shields to defeat a piece of tech you've never seen, developed or even heard of?

Until they can capture a Federation vessel in good enough condition, reverse engineer their shields, duplicate them and distibute them across their forces, they have a huge chink in their armour.

Especially since all Federation vessels come with a self destruct that their officers will use without hesitation before letting their ship fall into enemy hands.

[Sipex]

Don't shields block teleportation? I've never been clear on that.

They have to be configured to block teleportation from what I understand. Since it's new the covvies would need intel to learn how to block it first so it would give a starting edge to the federation.

This also brings up the question, are covy shields and weapons easily re-configurable? I mean, compared to the shields the federation has (which become more affective when configured against weapons).

[Tavar]

Covenant ships must drop shields in order to fire. That's a huge disadvantage right there. Plus the fact that Trek has some scary weapons, what with antimatter torpedoes...


Does anyone have hard numbers on the Covenant's number of ships, their size, and their armaments?

[Sipex]

Covenant ships drop shields to fire? Really?

Is that all of them? I know the particularily large ones do (Corvettes for example) but I don't think Seraphs do.

[An Enemy Spy]

They drop them for the briefest instant. Probably not long enough to sneak a torpedo in but maybe long enough to time a teleportation.
I have no idea how many ships they have, but I think the Battle of Reach put a small dent in their fleet. They were then able to muster up an even larger fleet in First Strike, there was the giant fleet in Halo 2, and even after a giant part of their fleet split off, they were still a formidable space power. So I think their numbers are somewhere between 9 and 12 craploads.

[Joran]

The covenant definitely have more ships but power wise it's hard to base them. They have seemingly similar technology (shields, energy weapons) and I've been told that phasers aren't something to cough at, they simply look simple because they don't need to look complicated.

The key thing about phasers is that they can be phased to specific frequencies. These can do a couple interesting things:

1) In TNGs: "A Matter of Time", it was stated that the Enterprise's phasers could burn off the atmosphere of a planet.

2) In Star Trek: Generations, the Klingon Bird of Prey was able to shoot through the Enterprise's shields by matching the shield modulation.

3) In TOS: "A Piece of the Action", the Enterprise was able to stun everyone in a city block.


Seriously. It really strikes me that despite Star Wars having space magic, it tends to be as or more internally consistent than Star Trek. I love Trek, but yeeeeeeesh.

Yup. That's what having a hundred different writers and no single voice establishing Word of God does. And nothing in Star Wars matches the destructive power of the Krenim Timeship.

[CorrTerek]

Yeah, this is a good point, I was just thinking about beaming things onto ships (ie: bombs) but I forgot that they tend to do this sort of thing a lot as well.


"Permission to give the Covenant back their bomb."

Based on the Halo books, it seems the Covenant doesn't really understand the tech they're using -- they don't take their stuff off the default setting. Cortana was able to reconfigure a ship to be much more efficient, thus giving it a significant power boost.

If the Federation can get ahold of even one Covenant ship, they'll figure out how any useful technology works and then make it work better. The Covenant would then be in the odd position of having to get intel on their own equipment.

[Sipex]

Alright, I think I've got enough information to form an opinion.

If you're looking at sheer power and numbers the Covenant wins, ship to ship, man to man. When the Federation starts fighting smart (which is what they do from what I understand) the Covenant becomes a challenge but will ultimately lose in the end.

That said, I believe the Covenant would see that they're losing early enough to identify it and retreat to re-evaluate their tactics...like firing the halo rings if they existed.

edit: To clarify, fighting smart is anything more than "We fire our guns at each other and perform evasive maneuvers."

[An Enemy Spy]

Is it that they don't understand their own tech or they simply refuse to fiddle with it? Covenant are wierd that way.
What kind of planetary defenses does the Federation have? Anything on par with the superMACs?

[Sipex]

Is it that they don't understand their own tech or they simply refuse to fiddle with it? Covenant are wierd that way.

I believe the Elites refuse to touch it unless the have to (relying, instead, on their own tech) while the prophets (forget their formal name) are the tinkerers but either won't or can't delve into the intracies of the tech. Either way, it's a disadvantage.

[Stryke]

Covenant ships drop shields to fire? Really?

Is that all of them? I know the particularily large ones do (Corvettes for example) but I don't think Seraphs do.

A Seraph is a starfighter, not a ship and corvettes are in fact the smallest class of coventant ship and not particularily large at all.

[Joran]

Is it that they don't understand their own tech or they simply refuse to fiddle with it? Covenant are wierd that way.
What kind of planetary defenses does the Federation have? Anything on par with the superMACs?

We don't know planetary defenses, but DS9 managed to fend off an attack from 50 Klingon ships, with upgraded defense systems.

DS9 also developed replicating cloaked mines. I have absolutely no idea how those don't violate the laws of physics, but whatever, they exist.

Finally, the Cardassians in DS9 developed orbital weapon platforms with impenetrable shields and tons of weapons powered by a generator on a moon.

[An Enemy Spy]

I believe the Elites refuse to touch it unless the have to (relying, instead, on their own tech) while the prophets (forget their formal name) are the tinkerers but either won't or can't delve into the intracies of the tech. Either way, it's a disadvantage.

San 'Shyuum btw.

[Sipex]

A Seraph is a starfighter, not a ship and corvettes are in fact the smallest class of coventant ship and not particularily large at all.

Really? What are the ones which commonly have world glassing tech on them then? I can never remember the names.

Corvettes would be the circular drop ships then?

Distinction of Starfighter vs Ship is irrelevant here, we're all thinking along the same context anyways I think.

[An Enemy Spy]

You're talking about the cruisers, carriers and destroyers. They are the big boys of the Covenant fleet. And that's not even getting into the Supercarriers and other ships like that.
Corvettes look like they're designed to deploy armies for ground assaults.

[CorrTerek]

Is it that they don't understand their own tech or they simply refuse to fiddle with it? Covenant are wierd that way.


I was under the impression they refused to fiddle with it, more or less -- and since fiddling with something is the primary way you learn how it works (if you don't have someone to teach you), they don't know much about their tech as the result.

[Kobold-Bard]

Is it that they don't understand their own tech or they simply refuse to fiddle with it? Covenant are wierd that way.
What kind of planetary defenses does the Federation have? Anything on par with the superMACs?

According to the newest Trek film Earth at least had a defensive network that Nero wouldn't have been able to beat without getting the access codes to deactivate it first. So I imagine they have at least some form of shield over their planets, probably supplemented by either weapons or ships for more important/vulnerable worlds.

[Stryke]

Really? What are the ones which commonly have world glassing tech on them then? I can never remember the names.

Corvettes would be the circular drop ships then?

Distinction of Starfighter vs Ship is irrelevant here, we're all thinking along the same context anyways I think.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Covenant_Corvette this is the corvette

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Phantom i think this is what you mean by circular drop ship

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/CCS-class_Battlecruiser this is probably the glassing ship to which your refering


I was under the impression they refused to fiddle with it, more or less -- and since fiddling with something is the primary way you learn how it works (if you don't have someone to teach you), they don't know much about their tech as the result.

i reckon their using fore runner tech so have basically no idea how some of it works, but then again they did use a fore runner dreadnought to power high charity so theres some inconsistency, then again theres the fact that they have so many races with so many diffrent techs, theres going to be instances where diffrent species dont know how to use certain equipments

i also maintain that if the covies cant figure it out then the fedaration cant

[Kobold-Bard]

New plan!!

Does the Covenant have replicator/holodeck technology?

If not then maybe the Federation can work out a peaceful deal, as would be their preference.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Well, don't forget that the Covies had the ability to find and neutralize every piece of space-rock larger than a centimeter that entered the space around High Charity. 500 ships, including tens of Supercarriers, was the vanguard of the fleet that was meant to guard Regret, the least of the High Prophets.

[Sipex]

The Covenant would usually go with that, as long as 'Peaceful Deal' constituted 'Join our Religion' but they don't really like humans because of major story reasons the humans can't help.

I'd imagine this would be the same for the federation humans.

[Stryke]

This discussion is pointless, the enterprise would just reroute something through the deflector array and the covies would be defeated

[An Enemy Spy]

The Covenant would see it as blasphemy since it wasn't made by the Forerunners. They're mean like that. The question is, how does one go about capturing Covenant ships? The only reason the UNSC was able to get their hands on any was because they had Spartans, and the Federation has nothing even close to that level of badassitude. Covenant security teams could probably hold off any invaders. Even if you beam straight to the bridge, you're now dealing with a crew of high level Sangheili who are all armed anyway.

[Sipex]

The Covenant would see it as blasphemy since it wasn't made by the Forerunners. They're mean like that. The question is, how does one go about capturing Covenant ships? The only reason the UNSC was able to get their hands on any was because they had Spartans, and the Federation has nothing even close to that level of badassitude. Covenant security teams could probably hold off any invaders. Even if you beam straight to the bridge, you're now dealing with a crew of high level Sangheili who are all armed anyway.

The only way they'd be able to get a covy ship is if they took it down and it didn't get completely destroyed in the crash.

edit: Or tractor beams and heavy casualties

[The Glyphstone]

Well, if they can't stop transporters, there's always the 'beam individual officers/security troops into the brig/deep space until they surrender are all gone' plan. Might not be practical in a pitched battle though.

EDIT: Forgot that Covvies don't surrender, or I don't think they do.

[CorrTerek]

i also maintain that if the covies cant figure it out then the fedaration cant

Yeah, but here's the thing -- Cortana figured out their own tech better than the Covies could. And Cortana isn't nearly as advanced an AI as, say, the Doctor. Or Data.

They pretty much refuse to meddle with the tech because it's sacred or something, and therefore know next to nothing about it. Forerunner tech isn't sacred to humans.

[Fortuna]

May I assume, for the sake of simplicity, that these are the only two sides in the conflict, and that combat takes place over (say) a galactic Quadrant remarkably devoid of the usual wormholes, spacial anomalies, temporal anomalies and so forth?

Then I have to give this to the Federation, ultimately. Besides the fact that they have superior adaptability, in an absolute, full-scale war pinch there are multiple technologies that could be adapted, particularly against an enemy that can't block transporters.

Incidentally, what power source do Covenant ships run on?

[AstralFire]

The Covenant would see it as blasphemy since it wasn't made by the Forerunners. They're mean like that. The question is, how does one go about capturing Covenant ships? The only reason the UNSC was able to get their hands on any was because they had Spartans, and the Federation has nothing even close to that level of badassitude. Covenant security teams could probably hold off any invaders. Even if you beam straight to the bridge, you're now dealing with a crew of high level Sangheili who are all armed anyway.

UNSC had to resort to that because until the Sangheili allied with them, they couldn't match covenant ships in a straight fight except for the two battles involving Keyes.

I'm sure the Feds can take down a covenant ship, on the other hand. Even if it's only to beam in and drop a biological weapon.

[An Enemy Spy]

Well, if they can't stop transporters, there's always the 'beam individual officers/security troops into the brig/deep space until they surrender are all gone' plan. Might not be practical in a pitched battle though.

EDIT: Forgot that Covvies don't surrender, or I don't think they do.

Covenant never surrender. The only time they ever retreated was Sigma Octanus IV and that's because they had already got what they came for.

[CorrTerek]

The only way they'd be able to get a covy ship is if they took it down and it didn't get completely destroyed in the crash.

edit: Or tractor beams and heavy casualties

Does the Covenant have starfighters? Those should be relatively easy to snag.

[Sipex]

Incidentally, what power source do Covenant ships run on?

This is a decent point, the feds tend to fight in other ways beyond "Shoot them until they die.", disabling a power source would be one of those ways.

[Fortuna]

UNSC had to resort to that because until the Sangheili allied with them, they couldn't match covenant ships in a straight fight except for the two battles involving Keyes.

I'm sure the Feds can take down a covenant ship, on the other hand. Even if it's only to beam in and drop a biological weapon.

I forgot biological weaponry. The Federation has shown truly remarkable facility with biotech in the past, including curing an 'incurable' virus while 99% of a ship was incapacitated and the power systems were on backup.

[An Enemy Spy]

Don't they have fusion reactors or something? I'm not sure?

[Stryke]

Yeah, but here's the thing -- Cortana figured out their own tech better than the Covies could. And Cortana isn't nearly as advanced an AI as, say, the Doctor. Or Data.

They pretty much refuse to meddle with the tech because it's sacred or something, and therefore know next to nothing about it. Forerunner tech isn't sacred to humans.

Cortanna is easily as advanced if not more so, the doctor wouldn't know how to fly his own ship let alone another species and data, well strike up an interesting conversation and he would forget to stop the reactore core overloading

[Sipex]

Does the Covenant have starfighters? Those should be relatively easy to snag.

They do, I'm told the Seraph is a star fighter and you also have Banshees.

Sure, they're no carrier but they'll still teach quite a bit I'm betting.

[An Enemy Spy]

I forgot biological weaponry. The Federation has shown truly remarkable facility with biotech in the past, including curing an 'incurable' virus while 99% of a ship was incapacitated and the power systems were on backup.

Do they actually use bioweapons though? I think the Feds would consider that "beneath them" or something.

[Kobold-Bard]

May I assume, for the sake of simplicity, that these are the only two sides in the conflict, and that combat takes place over (say) a galactic Quadrant remarkably devoid of the usual wormholes, spacial anomalies, temporal anomalies and so forth?

...

Also assuming there's no other forces eg. Klingon Empire to assist. Can't see them keeping their noses out of a battle like this. Or the Borg for that matter, invading empire full to the brim with completely new technology seems like the kind of thing they would be interested in.

[An Enemy Spy]

Also assuming there's no other forces eg. Klingon Empire to assist. Can't see them keeping their noses out of a battle like this. Or the Borg for that matter, invading empire full to the brim with completely new technology seems like the kind of thing they would be interested in.


I think we should keep this between Feds and Covies. Having everyone else in the galaxy show up kind of defeats the purpose of this thread.

[Fortuna]

Cortanna is easily as advanced if not more so, the doctor wouldn't know how to fly his own ship let alone another species and data, well strike up an interesting conversation and he would forget to stop the reactore core overloading

"I'm a doctor, not a fighter pilot." And a production line doctor at that, and obsolete. As to data, where are you pulling that from? He has shown facility with multitasking in the past, as well as unparalleled understanding of metatemporal physics.

[Kobold-Bard]

Do they actually use bioweapons though? I think the Feds would consider that "beneath them" or something.

They as a whole might, but that's what Section 31 (like the Fed version of the CIA, if the CIA were on steroids) is for. They quite happily created a virus that would genocidally massacre the entire leadership of the Dominion.

[An Enemy Spy]

Yeah, but here's the thing -- Cortana figured out their own tech better than the Covies could. And Cortana isn't nearly as advanced an AI as, say, the Doctor. Or Data.

They pretty much refuse to meddle with the tech because it's sacred or something, and therefore know next to nothing about it. Forerunner tech isn't sacred to humans.

Cortana is leagues beyond Data. She has virtually no limits at all.

[Fortuna]

Cortana is leagues beyond Data. She has virtually no limits at all.

What sorts of things has she shown herself capable of?

[AstralFire]

Cortana is leagues beyond Data. She has virtually no limits at all.

Aside from only lasting 7 years. I don't know, AIs in different universes work on different sets of totally arbitrary conventions - this is about as shaky a ground as possible to try and debate about.

[kamikasei]

Aside from only lasting 7 years. I don't know, AIs in different universes work on different sets of totally arbitrary conventions - this is about as shaky a ground as possible to try and debate about.
Very much this. It's bad enough with what should be hard physics, even if you've made up some new laws - different settings make different things possible so that a tech shared between both implies things in one that it doesn't in the other, relative effectivenesses get shot all to hell - but for things the writers barely understand, like AI, it's just about impossible to make a meaningful comparison.

[An Enemy Spy]

Here's a snenario to work on. One Covenant Assault Carrier, two CCS-Cruisers, four Destroyers, and ten Frigates versus whatever the Federation equivalent is. They meet in deep space and no reinforcements can come.

[CorrTerek]

Cortana is leagues beyond Data. She has virtually no limits at all.

Don't UNSC AIs degrade after 7 years? That's something that neither the Doctor nor Data really have to worry about. Also, unless I've missed something, the Doctor and Data both have the significant advantage of being able to act in the physical world without outside assistance.

In addition to that, they're both built by a civilization that's been dismantling and incorporating other people's tech for at least a couple of hundred years. They've had practice.

[Evil DM Mark3]

They as a whole might, but that's what Section 31 (like the Fed version of the CIA, if the CIA were on steroids) is for. They quite happily created a virus that would genocidally massacre the entire leadership of the Dominion.

Not just them. The Sisko dropped bio weapons on human collonies in order to get his hand on Edington.

[Stryke]

Here's a snenario to work on. One Covenant Assault Carrier, two CCS-Cruisers, four Destroyers, and ten Frigates versus whatever the Federation equivalent is. They meet in deep space and no reinforcements can come.

every coventant ship is several times bigger then the federation equivelant, even if they could get through their sheilds the federation weapons just arent big enough to big an real impact, plus the amount of support craft the coventatn would be able to deploy from that fleet would be incredible, they would have litterally thousands of fighters and boarding craft the federation ships whould get swarmed, plus if the coventant were able to get the belly of ther ships to bear they would fore the energy beam weapon which is pin point accurate and will blast through just about anything, so the get swarmed out sized and each ship has a potential one shoter, the federation would get owned

[kamikasei]

whatever the Federation equivalent is.
Frankly, I think as the one laying out the scenario it should be up to you to figure out what that is; and if you can't, that's an indication that there's no scenario.

[mangosta71]

Why should the Feds beam Covie leaders onto their ships? Just transport them directly into deep space and let them die in the vacuum. Do it to entire crews, and they can capture ships in perfect working order.

[An Enemy Spy]

Don't UNSC AIs degrade after 7 years? That's something that neither the Doctor nor Data really have to worry about. Also, unless I've missed something, the Doctor and Data both have the significant advantage of being able to act in the physical world without outside assistance.

In addition to that, they're both built by a civilization that's been dismantling and incorporating other people's tech for at least a couple of hundred years. They've had practice.

But once she's gone there's more to replace her. Also, when we're talking about just encounters, lifespan hardly factors into it. Also, the "dumb" AIs, can live much longer, if not forever and they are still very capable, just in a narrower field than the "smart" ones.

[Stryke]

Covies yous pinch fusion reactors and slipspace generators for power btw

[An Enemy Spy]

Frankly, I think as the one laying out the scenario it should be up to you to figure out what that is; and if you can't, that's an indication that there's no scenario.

I don't know enough about DS9. I keep forgetting the names of the ships.

[Fortuna]

To be fair, the doctor is limited to a few key places without 29th century tech, which is what we call cheating.

After a bit of research, Halo power sources appear to produce 'Plasma energy', whatever that is. I'm not seeing any obvious ways to use that against them, but hey.

[CorrTerek]

But once she's gone there's more to replace her. Also, when we're talking about just encounters, lifespan hardly factors into it. Also, the "dumb" AIs, can live much longer, if not forever and they are still very capable, just in a narrower field than the "smart" ones.

So the Doctor is basically a "dumb" AI, then? Focused on one field, but still very smart? Okay, that makes sense.

At any rate, my real point was that Cortana was able to figure out quite a lot about Covenant ships just by plugging in and looking around. Data, at the very least, should be able to do something similar.

And even if he doesn't, it'll just take the Federation longer to figure out/improve Covenant tech. They'll still do it.

[An Enemy Spy]

Is the Miranda Class like a destroyer?

[Kobold-Bard]

Why should the Feds beam Covie leaders onto their ships? Just transport them directly into deep space and let them die in the vacuum. Do it to entire crews, and they can capture ships in perfect working order.

I believe that was already suggested by someone. It is seemingly much easier to capture a Covenant vessel than a Federation one. Add to that the Federation's knack for fixing holes in their forces (they caught up on the Dominion's technical headstart of several centuries in less than a year) and unless the Covenant has something big that I don't know about, sheer numbers and bigass ships aren't enough to win this.

[Fortuna]

So the Doctor is basically a "dumb" AI, then? Focused on one field, but still very smart? Okay, that makes sense.

At any rate, my real point was that Cortana was able to figure out quite a lot about Covenant ships just by plugging in and looking around. Data, at the very least, should be able to do something similar.

And even if he doesn't, it'll just take the Federation longer to figure out/improve Covenant tech. They'll still do it.

Well, I wouldn't call the Doctor 'dumb' in that sense per se. He also has extension routines which permit him to pick up new fields at roughly human learning rates, but medical expertise is hard-coded into him. He can modify his own program, although that occasionally has disastrous results. He can dream and sing. None of those are in his 'core specs', so to speak, but he is capable of learning.

[Stryke]

also i gove you the one reason the UNSC held out as long as they did, the federation have nothing to equal this level of awsome
http://www.wired.com/video/halo-legends-clip-the-package/60860300001

[Fortuna]

Awesome is (dare I say it?) not the issue. The Federation has sheer dumb pseudoscience on their side. Plus people who seem to regularly push back the boundaries of the possible who are assigned to starships instead of secret research facilities. I suspect that their secret research facility guys are even more awesome.

:smalleek:

I just thought of something.

:smalleek:

The Federation has had Genesis technology for decades at this point.

:smalleek:

And Section 31 will use anything.

:smalleek:

That's a planet-sized bomb they can construct.

:eek:

[Joran]

Cortanna is easily as advanced if not more so, the doctor wouldn't know how to fly his own ship let alone another species and data, well strike up an interesting conversation and he would forget to stop the reactore core overloading

The Doctor actually had some additional programming built in, as an emergency replacement for the bridge crew if they're disabled. It's called the Emergency Command Hologram and yes, he could pilot Voyager if called upon.

[An Enemy Spy]

Well, I wouldn't call the Doctor 'dumb' in that sense per se. He also has extension routines which permit him to pick up new fields at roughly human learning rates, but medical expertise is hard-coded into him. He can modify his own program, although that occasionally has disastrous results. He can dream and sing. None of those are in his 'core specs', so to speak, but he is capable of learning.

"Dumb" AI's are hardly dumb. They're just called that to differentiate them from "smart" AIs, who have almost unlimited capabilities.

[Stryke]

LOL i love pointless internet arguments

[Kobold-Bard]

The Doctor actually had some additional programming built in, as an emergency replacement for the bridge crew if they're disabled. It's called the Emergency Command Hologram and yes, he could pilot Voyager if called upon.

But in the end they is still limited by the range of holo-emitters. Not him specifically, but the rest of them are. And holo-emitters (and the Dr's mobile emitter) are notoriously fragile.

[EvilSun]

CULTURE wins. :smallsmile:

[Joran]

Is the Miranda Class like a destroyer?

Miranda-class is like a destroyer; it was around during TNG. Later Starfleet designs, First Contact and DS9, placed more emphasis on offensive capability like the Sovereign, Steamrunner, or Akira class.

[Seraph]

there's one simple question to be asked here that will determine how certain the outcome is.

Do covenant shields block transporters?

If they don't, well, the covenant are well and truly ****ed. one photon torpedo has an upper dialable yield in the 60 megaton range. if you transport one inside of a ship and it goes off, it doesn't matter how big the ship is, because until you reach megastructure proportions one 60 megaton detonation inside a ship is going to completely cripple it, if not destroy it outright.

so, yeah, if covenant shields don't block transporters, then so long as one Federation ship figures it out then it can pretty much singlehandedly obliterate almost the entire opposing force in a matter of moments.

[An Enemy Spy]

Let's just say Covies can block teleporters and just put it to rest.

[Kobold-Bard]

Let's just say Covies can block teleporters and just put it to rest.

In that case it comes down the Fed's ability to out-technology the Cov, which admittedly still sounds like it will happen.

Or the aforementioned Planet-Bomb.

[An Enemy Spy]

Since when have the Feds ever used planet bombs?

[Lamech]

The main problem with this fight is the federation has a weapon that the covent has no defense against. The freaking transporter. They can beam a bomb on board, if they want to capture a ship they can beam the people enemies into space. They can steal there weapons, power generators, engines, doomsday devices, computers or anything else they can feel like.

They can steal knowledge straight from the enemy mind. They have limitless biotech knowledge to produce bio-weapons. (Pro-tip: Glassing a planet will really piss off the feds.) They can make cloaking devices that go through anything (I'm sure they can work out something with the romulans.) They have even more banned weapons at their disposal.

This isn't a sane fight. The covenent will prepare to blast the feds and the feds will ready the doomsday weapons.



Since when have the Feds ever used planet bombs?I'm sure the federation will hold a very prinipabled view about planet bombs right up until the first world gets glassed. And then... yeah.

[An Enemy Spy]

The main problem with this fight is the federation has a weapon that the covent has no defense against. The freaking transporter. They can beam a bomb on board, if they want to capture a ship they can beam the people enemies into space. They can steal there weapons, power generators, engines, doomsday devices, computers or anything else they can feel like.

They can steal knowledge straight from the enemy mind. They have limitless biotech knowledge to produce bio-weapons. (Pro-tip: Glassing a planet will really piss off the feds.) They can make cloaking devices that go through anything (I'm sure they can work out something with the romulans.) They have even more banned weapons at their disposal.

This isn't a sane fight. The covenent will prepare to blast the feds and the feds will ready the doomsday weapons.

We've already ruled that the Covenant shields can block transporters

[Kobold-Bard]

Since when have the Feds ever used planet bombs?

Section 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Section_31)


... Under Section 31 credo, to save lives, the ends always justified the means and its operatives were not afraid to bend the rules every once in a while if the situation warranted it. ...

They are a frighteningly efficient, completely autonomous secret police for the Federation. They have access to all Federation technology and authority, without any of the rules. If it meant protecting the Federation they would happily use babies to fuel a black hole creating device, planet bombs are no big deal.

[Fortuna]

Since when have the Feds ever used planet bombs?

Used? Never. Planet-based warfare is rare in the Trek universe, and the Genesis project was super-classified and locked up. But with Section 31 in play, and an enemy so hugely superior in numbers, I can see it as at least a possibility. Also, importantly, it's virtually unblockable.

[An Enemy Spy]

If they never actually used these weapons than we can hardly consider them for discussion.

[Kobold-Bard]

If they never actually used these weapons than we can hardly consider them for discussion.

Fair enough but Section 31 are still a factor. They have shown the expertise and willingness to both create and utilise a virus that would end in genocide for the opposition.

In an straight gun fight the federation loses hard (as shown in Wolf 359). As such they would never ever do this.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I have to disagree.

They have access to Genesis, a device that can totally obliterate worlds. Section 31 will do ANYTHING it takes to save the Federation. They WILL use Genesis as a weapon, even if it was never meant to be used as one.

[An Enemy Spy]

I thought the genesis technology was lost in Star Trek III.

[Fortuna]

I disagree. They have never faced an analogous situation. With the vast superiority of the enemy force, leaps and bounds greater than the Dominion, and the likely extended nature of the conflict, totally unlike the Borg conflicts, there is both reason and opportunity to produce a working, mass-produced Genesis bomb.

EDIT: multi-swordsaged.

[Terumitsu]

Here is something that hasn't been really considered:

Federation's sensor technology. It's pretty awesome actually. It can pinpoint various things like, say, the engine core or the equivalent of such. Also, it would detect the fact that the Covenant drops their shields to fire. Assuming that the shields block teleportation at all, which is still apparently up for grabs. Really, at this point, all the Feds would have to do is just set up a minor conditional program to teleport a small bit of matter into the engine of the opposing ships when the shields drop (assuming that they even need to) and Presto! Instantly crippled/gibbed Covenant ships for everyone!

In all seriousness, if both sides were spoiling for a fight, Federation wins due to sheer guile and ingenuity as well as actually knowing what their tech does. It would be hard if the Feds decided to fight honorably, which is their normal choice, but if they were going for a quick wipe-out, it would not be pretty for the Covenant. From my understanding, having something where the main weapon can incinerate the atmosphere of a planet is a pretty big deal. Considering that apparently the best the Covenant can do is just glass the area (Not discounting that this too takes a lot of power but this is speaking in relative terms), I would suggest that, as it takes several phaser strikes to drop a Trek shield, the Feds would have better weapons and defense.

I think the Feds would win this one.

[An Enemy Spy]

But then we would have to allow for both sides to do anything. Perhaps after facing an enemy as powerful as the Federation the Covenant finally get over themselves and utilise their technology to it's full capacity. The same thing already happened during the war between the San 'Shyuum and the Sangheili.

[Kobold-Bard]

But then we would have to allow for both sides to do anything. Perhaps after facing an enemy as powerful as the Federation the Covenant finally get over themselves and utilise their technology to it's full capacity. The same thing already happened during the war between the San 'Shyuum and the Sangheili.

And what is their tech's full capacity? What in your head are they missing out on?

Serious Q, I don't know the Covenant at all so I don't know what they might gain.

[Fortuna]

I thought the genesis technology was lost in Star Trek III.

Five minutes of research reveal no such loss, and developments of it have later terraforming technology based on it. Further, the underlying protomatter was used as late as 2370, roughly the time frame we're talking about.

As to guile: As I said, the Federation's starship crews push back the boundaries of the possible on a yearly basis. Why should you assume their top scientists are any less able?

[CorrTerek]

Let's just say Covies can block teleporters and just put it to rest.

Seems likely the opposite would be the case, for reasons elaborated on earlier in the thread, but whatever. Seems like stacking things against the Federation, though.

[Seraph]

We've already ruled that the Covenant shields can block transporters

no we haven't, you just declared that they can.

considering that the borg are capable of beaming through shields, it seems rather more likely that the "anti transporter effect" of shields is a designed safeguard that can be circumvented with appropriate technology, not an inherent element that only works when convenient. therefore, there's no reason to believe the covenant can block transporter beams without evidence.

[Yora]

Now this is ian interesting Versus Thread. I don't know instantly how I want to respond to this. :smallbiggrin:

Both the Federation and the Covenant are very impressive in ship and weapon technology.
But then, the Dominion was apparently stronger than the Federation, which only won because of help from both Klingons and Romulans, and a rebellion of the Cardassians. And somehow I think the Covenant ships and soldiers are so much more impressive than what the Dominion can throw into battle.
- Personal weapons are very much the same.
- Elites and Brutes kick the ass of ever Jem'Hadar.
- The Dominion lacks any real capital ships, and the covenant cruisers and carriers are huge!
- And also, the Covenant fleets have the ability to burn the entire surface of a planet to glass with orbital plasma bombardment. The only force in Star Trek that ever pulled off something similar are the Borg. And ignoring Voyager here, a single cube can destroy entire fleets of Starfleet ships.

So yeah, I think the Covenant is much more stronger as a military force.

The real question is: "UNSC vs. GTVA" :smallbiggrin:

[CorrTerek]

And what is their tech's full capacity? What in your head are they missing out on?

Serious Q, I don't know the Covenant at all so I don't know what they might gain.

I can't remember the exact stats, but Cortana (an advanced AI) discovered that the Covenants consider any technology used by the Forerunners to be sacred, and don't fiddle with it at all out of reverence and the assumption that it must be perfect as is.

Their ships are basically set to default, and apparently minor tweaking can make them much more efficient and powerful.

[An Enemy Spy]

When I said that, It seemed like people agreed with me. I just wanted to get beyond the whole transporter=win thing I get into whenever people talk about the Federation.

[Terumitsu]

But then we would have to allow for both sides to do anything. Perhaps after facing an enemy as powerful as the Federation the Covenant finally get over themselves and utilise their technology to it's full capacity. The same thing already happened during the war between the San 'Shyuum and the Sangheili.

If that happens, then in effect, the Covenant has already been defeated as they would be actively be committing heresy on an organization-wide scale. From what I know, tampering with the tech is strictly forbidden to the Covenant so anything that would cause them to actually change an apparently core tenant (seeing as they have mostly done nothing more than know that Button A makes Magic Light kill things while Button B calls up Holy Wards of Justice and so on) would likely cause plenty of schisms and so on inside the organization itself. That and one cannot simply learn how to do all that without a good amount of experimentation. That could take years. Years that they might not have.

And in the end, all you would have is just a group of aliens in a war-pact rather than what was a religious organization. Thus, defeated in that way too.

[The Big Dice]

The Federation are insanely powerful. More so that Star Wars fans give them credit for.

I mean, the phasers on a Galaxy class cruiser (the TNG Enterprise) drill through kilometers of rock in a matter of seconds more than once. They have sensors capable of identifying DNA at hundreds of thousands of kilometers, and that are capable of gathering real time information in a five light year radius.

Plus transporters, tractor beams, shields that can take direct hits from their own weaponry and computers that have the core sat in a static warp field, so that information is processed at ftl speeds.

I'm not sure how big an isoton is, but photon torpedoes can explode for a yield of around 50 of them, and quantum torpedoes explode with a yield of around 150.

Federation ships are also seriously manoeuverable, too. The PIcard Manoeuver could well confuse the hell out of Covenant crews. And any civilisation capable of fending the Borg off on more than one occasion has to be tough and adaptable.

Edit: And if they did recreate the Genesis Devices, that puppy made an entire star system from a nebula in a matter of minutes or hours.

[An Enemy Spy]

Their shields always seemed kinda wimpy to me. Why is it that even though Worf says the sheilds are at 30%, there still always to damage to deck 12-14?

[Terumitsu]

Their shields always seemed kinda wimpy to me. Why is it that even though Worf says the sheilds are at 30%, there still always to damage to deck 12-14?

It's less the shields being wimpy and more the phasers being very powerful, as I stated earlier.

Also, Rule of drama. Mostly because decks 12-14 is where the redshirts live. Common knowledge. (/jest)

[Kobold-Bard]

From what I can work out the Covenant's main thing is superior numbers and superior firepower. Against the Star Wars Galactic Empire something like this might work because that's their shtick too.

However the Federation works on a much more tactical scale, and are able to adapt to situations far quicker. They'd be at an initial disadvantage but very quickly they would recover (they try to be passive but when someone messes with their stuff they go bananas) and would be able to cancel out the brute force approach's main advantages by not giving them big, easy targets and using their (apparently) superior tech in other areas than firepower.

[An Enemy Spy]

Let's talk ground game. We already know that the Covenant like mass numbers of Unggoy and Kig-Yar that can overrun enemy positions through sheer numbers. The Sangheili and Jiralhanae are more than a match for any human, and Lekgolo have incredibly tough armor. I don't know the Feds use, but from what I've seen, they are hideosly outmatched infantry wise.

[Kobold-Bard]

Let's talk ground game. We already know that the Covenant like mass numbers of Unggoy and Kig-Yar that can overrun enemy positions through sheer numbers. The Sangheili and Jiralhanae are more than a match for any human, and Lekgolo have incredibly tough armor. I don't know the Feds use, but from what I've seen, they are hideosly outmatched infantry wise.

Which is why the Federation rarely uses ground troops; that's a much more Klingon tactic. No one could argue that in a trench warfare situation the Federation loses, and they lose magnificently.

[An Enemy Spy]

How large is the average Federation fleet defending a planet?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Star Fleet Security teams are supposedly highly trained. Star Fleet Phaser rifles are described on several occasions as being very powerful and versatile weapons, to the point of almost having too may options. But yes, on the whole Star Fleet does not seem to handle infantry conflict well.

[Kobold-Bard]

How large is the average Federation fleet defending a planet?

Depends on the planet. Most of the fleet is on assorted mission. You can assume an immediate response of maybe 1-6, so quite easy to deal with.

The problem then comes from the fact that the Federation can apparently communicate with it's entire fleet over their entire space. The retaliation will likely be pretty swift.

[An Enemy Spy]

So a Covenant fleet would be a lot bigger than this. If the ships seem to about equal power, Covies smash the Fed fleet, use infantry to take out any important suface facilities and then glass the planet in a matter of hours.

[Evil DM Mark3]

And do it exactly once. The Federation would respond en mass before the Covenent would reach the next target world.

Also I think we may be downplaying the Federation's soldiers a little now I think of it. Remember that many are not human and, to take the obvious example, Vulcans are incredibly strong and disciplined. Federation =/= human.

[Force]

I'm not sure how big an isoton is, but photon torpedoes can explode for a yield of around 50 of them, and quantum torpedoes explode with a yield of around 150.


Pretty pitiful. Iso means "equal". Iso-ton would mean "equal (to) a ton", or 1 ton. Considering that the modern-day United States has produced 15-megaton weapons (15 million ton) before... technically, that means that a Sovereign-class warship would need to fire ten thousand quantum torpedoes to equal a single modern fusion bomb. Makes it pretty obvious that the writers pulled that one out of somewhere the sun don't shine.

As far as transporters go... transporters are, for one, only as good as sensors. Without a qualified idea of the layout of a Covenant vessel, the best a Federation transporter operator can do is attempt to guess where the bridge is, and as Federation vessels have to drop their shields to transport, a miscalculation could prove fatal. In addition, transporters are extraordinarily easy to block. In TNG: Legacy, EM radiation emitted from a power transformer blocked transporters and in TNG: Suspicions EM radiation from a local start did the trick; in TNG: The Final Mission, planetary magnetic fields blocked transporters; and in TNG Schisms and The Quality of Life, energy like that produced by a nuclear reactor blocked transporters. It's easier to assume that transporters can't be used while Covenant shields are up than to assume that the Feds can waltz right through.

Finally, unless the Feds can achieve space superiority, the Covenant is going wax them on the ground. There is no way redshirts are going to hold against Covenant ground forces.

[Evil DM Mark3]

The Isotonnes are in antimatter equivalence. That is not 50 tonnes of TNT, that is 50 tonnes of antimatter.

[Kobold-Bard]

And do it exactly once. The Federation would respond en mass before the Covenent would reach the next target world.

This. The Federation is only pleasant as long as they aren't threatened. The second a planet gets destroyed they will go mental and throw eerything they have at this uber threat.


Also I think we may be downplaying the Federation's soldiers a little now I think of it. Remember that many are not human and, to take the obvious example, Vulcans are incredibly strong and disciplined. Federation =/= human.

Good point. Get a team of Bynars onto a Covenant vessel and it's shut down in minutes.

[An Enemy Spy]

This. The Federation is only pleasant as long as they aren't threatened. The second a planet gets destroyed they will go mental and throw eerything they have at this uber threat.



Good point. Get a team of Bynars onto a Covenant vessel and it's shut down in minutes.

What is a Bynar?

[Force]

The Isotonnes are in antimatter equivalence. That is not 50 tonnes of TNT, that is 50 tonnes of antimatter.

Proof?

Actually, now that I think about it, we can actually get a better yield. 1.5kg of antimatter in a photon torpedo = 64megatons of energy, assuming 100% M/AM energy conversion and a shaped explosion (in reality, taking into account what kinds of energy M/AM reactions create, the fact that the explosion probably wouldn't be 100% efficient, and the fact that proton/quantum torpeodes are not shaped, we could get actual weapon yields as low as 16 megatons). 25 isotons to 64 megatons is 1 isoton ~ 2.5 megatons.

[Kobold-Bard]

What is a Bynar?

Star Trek Wiki (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main)

Anything you don't know will be on there.

Bynar's are able to communicate & process information at incredible speeds, and have an innate ability with technology. They're like a super computer crossed with a skilled engineer.

[The Big Dice]

As far as transporters go... transporters are, for one, only as good as sensors.
Federation sensors are crazy strong. It's possibly the field they are the most advanced in. I mean, they can spot unknown particles, analyse residue from energy weapons fire, identify DNA at orbital distances and provide pinpoint targeting for both weapons and transporters.

And that's the stuff on ships. They also have tricorders which are unbelievably versatile. And their hand phaser is a multitool capable of doing just about anything from knocking a target out, heating rocks an killing people up to literally reducing cubic meters of rock to constituent atoms.

Covenant troops are possibly more powerful at the level of the individual soldier. Or at least the Elites and Brutes are. They also have some exotic weapons that the Redshirts aren't ready for in the initial encounters. But given the use of transporters, armed and shielded shuttles that are warp capable, along with the ability to gather accurate intelligence, the fight isn't as one sided as it might seem.


Proof?

Actually, now that I think about it, we can actually get a better yield. 1.5kg of antimatter in a photon torpedo = 64megatons of energy, assuming 100% M/AM energy conversion and a shaped explosion (in reality, taking into account what kinds of energy M/AM reactions create, the fact that the explosion probably wouldn't be 100% efficient, and the fact that proton/quantum torpeodes are not shaped, we could get actual weapon yields as low as 16 megatons). 25 isotons to 64 megatons is 1 isoton ~ 2.5 megatons.
Photon torpedoes are antimatter warheads that have seen a century or more of development. Considering the Federation mastery of force fields and their ability to manipulate plasma, I would think that torpedo explosions are both 100% efficient and shaped. If needed, considering that they are a variable yield weapon.

Given a ratio of 1 isoton to 2.5 megatons, a fully loaded photin is exploding at around 125 megatons and a quantum at somewhere around 375.

And they are normally fired in volleys of four, though standard ship mounted torpedo launchers can shoot up to ten at a time. Each with individual targeting data and that can be launched with enormous accuracy at warp speeds.

[Seraph]

I feel I should point out that starfleet doesn't use infantry because they consider it obsolete. A starship can set its shipboard phasers to stun and disable a large ground force from orbit, without causing pyrrhic damage to the battleground. Most ground activity by Starfleet is done by small teams.

[An Enemy Spy]

Star Trek Wiki (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main)

Anything you don't know will be on there.

Bynar's are able to communicate & process information at incredible speeds, and have an innate ability with technology. They're like a super computer crossed with a skilled engineer.

Oh yeah! I remember them from that episode where Riker is hitting on that holchick from the thirties.

[Kobold-Bard]

Oh yeah! I remember them from that episode where Riker is hitting on that holchick from the thirties.

And there we have it; the Federation's ultimate Weapon.

Riker seduces the leaders of the Covenant. War over :smallwink:

[An Enemy Spy]

And there we have it; the Federation's ultimate Weapon.

Riker seduces the leaders of the Covenant. War over :smallwink:

That's all Truth needed all this time. A little taste of Riker. And maybe Picard.

[Terumitsu]

And there we have it; the Federation's ultimate Weapon.

Riker seduces the leaders of the Covenant. War over :smallwink:

This.

You, sir, have just made my day.

[Evil DM Mark3]

And there we have it; the Federation's ultimate Weapon.

Riker seduces the leaders of the Covenant. War over :smallwink:Either that, or we task Janeway with ensuring their continued survival...

[Kobold-Bard]

Either that, or we task Janeway with ensuring their continued survival...

http://i40.tinypic.com/2cx6s1t.jpg

[Lamech]

Proof?
Isoton (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Isoton)
The damage is based of plot. In fact we have isotons for things that aren't even explosive yields.

■A 54 isoton yield gravimetric charge could blow up a small planet. (VOY: "The Omega Directive")

■A bomb with 90 isotons of enriched ultritium had the explosion radius of 800 kilometers. Such a bomb was used to blow up a ketracel-white facility in Cardassian space in 2374.

200 isotons was the explosive yield of a photon torpedo with a class-6 warhead.
These things really don't mesh well. The isotons go up but the damage goes down...

[Seraph]

Isoton (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Isoton)
The damage is based of plot. In fact we have isotons for things that aren't even explosive yields.



These things really don't mesh well. The isotons go up but the damage goes down...

before all these isoton shenanigans came about in voyager, someone did the math and calculated that photon torpedoes have a dialable yield that can go up to around 60 megatons. and this was on star destroyer.net, mind you, the one website that is so hilariously, vitriolically biased against star trek that you'd think that gene roddenberry had public sexual relations with the webmaster's mother or something.

[Force]

Federation sensors are crazy strong. It's possibly the field they are the most advanced in. I mean, they can spot unknown particles, analyse residue from energy weapons fire, identify DNA at orbital distances and provide pinpoint targeting for both weapons and transporters.

Transporters won't tell you where the bridge is, or for that matter who the commander is. Sensors are only as good as the people interpreting them... and in dealing with new technology, the people operating the sensors may be at a loss.




And that's the stuff on ships. They also have tricorders which are unbelievably versatile. And their hand phaser is a multitool capable of doing just about anything from knocking a target out, heating rocks an killing people up to literally reducing cubic meters of rock to constituent atoms.


Phasers as swiss army tools are cute, but hardly relevant to the debate. There's a reason that US Marines are issued entrenching tools; it's because they aren't expected to dig holes with their M16s. And while the performance of phasers against rock might be impressive, it's strange that they don't don't seem to mark up starship bulkheads or even packing crates. It's more likely that phasers are chain-reaction weapons useful against carbon-based lifeforms and the lighter elements on the periodic table.

Tricorders I will grant are useful. Unfortunately, they tend to be used mostly in "active" mode, and if Covenant sensors can detect Federation sensors being used that's the electronic equivalent of screaming "YOUR ENEMY IS HERE!"



Covenant troops are possibly more powerful at the level of the individual soldier. Or at least the Elites and Brutes are. They also have some exotic weapons that the Redshirts aren't ready for in the initial encounters. But given the use of transporters, armed and shielded shuttles that are warp capable, along with the ability to gather accurate intelligence, the fight isn't as one sided as it might seem.

Transporters... can be blocked by standing next to electrical transporters. Shielded shuttles... can still be shot down by air/space superiority fighters which the Covenant fields. The Covenant uses combined arms tactics. They carry weapons heavier than sidearms and assault rifles. They deploy armor on the battlefield. Their troops have a combat uniform that's a little more resistant to damage then red PJs. Finally, don't underestimate the power of morale-- how is the average Federation redshirt going to react when a Mgalekgolo takes a phaser beam to the face, isn't impressed, and responds with a fuel rod blasts that wipes out half his squad?


I feel I should point out that starfleet doesn't use infantry because they consider it obsolete. A starship can set its shipboard phasers to stun and disable a large ground force from orbit, without causing pyrrhic damage to the battleground. Most ground activity by Starfleet is done by small teams.

Hmm... Why didn't they do this during the Siege of AR-558, I wonder...

[pffh]

Since we are using ds9 federation

■A bomb with 90 isotons of enriched ultritium had the explosion radius of 800 kilometers. Such a bomb was used to blow up a ketracel-white facility in Cardassian space in 2374.

Seems most fitting.

[Evil DM Mark3]

And then we get this:

A Malon export vessel, eleventh gradient could transport 90 million isotons of antimatter waste.

In the year 2375, the Malon civilization produced 6 billion isotons of antimatter waste as an industrial byproduct daily.

Another type of Malon export vessel could transport 4 trillion isotons of antimatter waste. 4 Trillion? Based on this scale, that is either enough to blow up a galaxy, or blow a nose.

[Seraph]

Hmm... Why didn't they do this during the Siege of AR-558, I wonder...

because that episode was written stupid, among other things. I think there was an interview with a writer who flat out admitted that they knew perfectly well that a single rapid fire weapon would have completely obliterated the jem'hadar during the ravine charge, but they refused to even acknowledge the concept in the episode so that it would be more dramatic.

[Evil DM Mark3]

because that episode was written stupid, among other things. I think there was an interview with a writer who flat out admitted that they knew perfectly well that a single rapid fire weapon would have completely obliterated the jem'hadar during the ravine charge, but they refused to even acknowledge the concept in the episode so that it would be more dramatic.To be fair we get a good story out of it, it just makes no sense.

[Force]

because that episode was written stupid, among other things. I think there was an interview with a writer who flat out admitted that they knew perfectly well that a single rapid fire weapon would have completely obliterated the jem'hadar during the ravine charge, but they refused to even acknowledge the concept in the episode so that it would be more dramatic.

Indeed. Modern-day military forces with machine guns probably would've done better than red-shirts.

Nonetheless, if we are to argue in a versus debate, what is on screen is canon. For whatever reasons, the Defiant (a dedicated Starfleet warship) beamed down troops in PJs, with small arms and no support weapons or artillery, to defend against an attack by superior forces and did not provide orbital fire support. This is the situation in which one would conclude we would see Federation forces deploy weapons beyond phaser pistols and rifles, as well as orbital bombardment, and yet... we don't. Strange, isn't it?

[Evil DM Mark3]

I think sfdebris came up with a personal explanation as to why NEITHER side used more than basic weapons. The relay (the whole reason both sides where there) was at risk of damage if they did. It explains rather nicely why both sides do it.

[Saph]

I think a few people have noted that non-naval military tactics is basically a lost art in Star Trek. It dates back to the Gene Roddenbery idea that humanity had "progressed beyond" such untidy things as warfare (yeah, right). A modern-day army could wipe the floor with a Star Trek ground team in a straight fight, let alone the Covenant.

[The Big Dice]

Transporters won't tell you where the bridge is, or for that matter who the commander is. Sensors are only as good as the people interpreting them... and in dealing with new technology, the people operating the sensors may be at a loss.
If they can pinpoint a location in a Borg cube, a notoriously decentralised vessel, I doubt that finding the command center of a ship crewed by Covenant would be difficult. I doubt that them being able to precisely identify the composition and numbers of the Covenant crew would be difficult, either. Trek computers are stupidly powerful, as are their sensors. I mean, being able to track ships at warp speed in real time from five light years away?

Can the Covenant even come close?

Being able to identify previously unseen subspace distortions prior to a ship emerging from transwarp space is no mean feat so I doubt other forms of FTL drive would bypass Federation sensor capability.

The standard LCARS interface uses AI routines to anticipate what the user is going to do next and can self reconfigure the control panel to suit different tasks. It's all designed to be easy and intuitive to use, giving the operator access to huge amounts of info with the minimum fuss.


Phasers as swiss army tools are cute, but hardly relevant to the debate. There's a reason that US Marines are issued entrenching tools; it's because they aren't expected to dig holes with their M16s. And while the performance of phasers against rock might be impressive, it's strange that they don't don't seem to mark up starship bulkheads or even packing crates. It's more likely that phasers are chain-reaction weapons useful against carbon-based lifeforms and the lighter elements on the periodic table.
A standard hand phaser has 16 power settings. That's the Type 2 "cobra head" hand phaser. I'm pretty sure the pulse compression rifles seen from First Contact onwards are even more versatile.

And the reason you make your weapon versatile (yes, an entrenching tool is also designed to be used as a hand axe) is to cut down on the amount of gear a soldier needs to carry to be able to operate in the field.


Tricorders I will grant are useful. Unfortunately, they tend to be used mostly in "active" mode, and if Covenant sensors can detect Federation sensors being used that's the electronic equivalent of screaming "YOUR ENEMY IS HERE!"
Tricorders are also capable of operating in passive mode. Sure, the range and functionality will be reduced, but it's still better than nothing. It's also a hand held computer system, mapping device and relay to the rest of your company and your ship.

It's a powerful tool for co-ordinating your soldiers. Which is something the Federation need to do in the face of numerical and physical superiority.


Transporters... can be blocked by standing next to electrical transporters. Shielded shuttles... can still be shot down by air/space superiority fighters which the Covenant fields. The Covenant uses combined arms tactics. They carry weapons heavier than sidearms and assault rifles. They deploy armor on the battlefield. Their troops have a combat uniform that's a little more resistant to damage then red PJs. Finally, don't underestimate the power of morale-- how is the average Federation redshirt going to react when a Mgalekgolo takes a phaser beam to the face, isn't impressed, and responds with a fuel rod blasts that wipes out half his squad?
There are more places that transporters can put marines than are likely to be shielded against them. And Federation shuttles are a fighter that's got shields, warp drive, torpedo launchers on the larger ones and the ability to insert marines from orbit, without you even knowing they were there.

Sure, they can be shot down, but they can also shoot back with great efficiency.

As for heavy weapons, Federation hand phasers are pretty powerful in their own right. The rifles they carry in later seasons even more so. If the enemy takes a shot to the face, you can dial up the power to a level that would vapourise a modern tank. Let's see any infantry take a shot of that power.

It doesn't matter how resistant to damage your uniform is when you're facing a weapon that can literally evaporate you and it at the same time. Admittedly the Redshirts seem reluctant to use their weapons at that power setting, but it is capable of it.

And that's not getting into things like precision targeting from ships in orbit or in atmosphere.

[Illieas]

this like many hypotheticals have very many questions.

The main question involved with this situation boils down to how strong the star trek weapons are related to convenant shields and vice versa.

the start trek universe has three main weapons the phaser. a never missing big laser which can only be fired 1once every 1-2 secs or so. and photon torpedo and more destructive quantum torpedo that are effectively antimatter explosive.

versus

convenant weaponry. from what i can gather they use plasma technology. they have a larger force of many ships. so plasma cannon and plasma tordpedos. the question is do the tiny laser from the small ship actually affect the shield of the federation or not


one v one CCS vs sovereign class federation ship. i think the federation would win mostly because they can go light speed extremely quickly. hence move in shoot move out tactic would work. throw in the picard maneuver and i think they would win

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Picard_Maneuver


if you wanted to unfairly place it in federation's favor. voyager's last episode had phase photon torpedoes. which would be pretty much GG.

[The Big Dice]

one v one CCS vs sovereign class federation ship. i think the federation would win mostly because they can go light speed extremely quickly. hence move in shoot move out tactic would work. throw in the picard maneuver and i think they would win.
The way I think it would go is like this:

Covenant forces would cause huge damage in the early stages of the conflict. The Federation would give a good account of themselves, but overwhelming Covenant ground assault would cause a lot of planets to fall fairly quickly.

The Federation would then do what they do best: hold a meeting. They'd have talks with Covenant leadership, while they were also engaged in intelligence gathering operations. Get detailed scans of Covenant ships and troops. Analyse captured weapons and wreckage from the first wave of combat and come up with counters to the things the could beat with technology.

Naturally, the talks would end badly. The Covenant gather one of their huge fleets to go stomp on the homeworlds of any Federation species that had really ticked them off.

But this time, the Federation are ready.

They lack the edge in numbers, but they make up for it with precision weaponry, communication and intelligence.

End result, the Covenant are driven to sign a peace treaty at phaser point, though the Federation is a mess by the end of the conflict. They've lost ships, worlds and resources. It's going to take time to rebuild, but the Federation's adaptability and technology win out in a near Pyrrhic victory.

[Fortuna]

I think there are several things that need to be considered, and which have been being considered. I'm going to make an effort to do a comprehensive analysis of the capabilities of Starfleet.

Strategic capabilities (spatial): Covenant have vastly superior numbers and resources. Starfleet can take months to cross their entire territory, although only hours or days between nearby stars.

Strategic capabilities (temporal): Starfleet is able to develop new technologies and reverse engineer enemy technologies in weeks or months, giving them an edge as time goes on. Also, in an absolute worst-case scenario, Starfleet is capable of slingshot maneuvers to permit time travel, although such acts violate the Temporal Prime Directive. Also also, Starfleet has at least one, possibly two superweapons that can be made ready in relatively short order, these being Genesis and Omega (depending on interactions between Omega and Covenant FTL, it may even be possible for Starfleet to force the Covenant into particular paths, or seal off sections of space from immediate FTL access). These would almost certainly be weapons of last resort.

Tactical capabilities (deep space): Starfleet has a superior range of capabilities, but most are near-worthless in combat. Notable exceptions are excellent sensors, ability to calibrate weapons and shields to be more effective against a given foe, ability to use transporters at warp speed and with pinpoint accuracy, and excellent maneuverability ranging from quick turns up to the Picard maneuver. Also notable is the magic bullet that is the main deflector array.

Tactical capabilities (in-system): Starfleet's advantages hold, for the most part. Starfleet's sensors (and likely Covenant sensors as well) have blind spots behind moons, in rings and so forth, likely offering a slight net advantage to Covenant.

Tactical capabilities (on-planet): Starfleet has minimal ground troops, but extremely effective orbit-to-ground capabilities in its phasers, stated to be capable of igniting atmosphere or stunning large groups of enemies at a time.

[An Enemy Spy]

I think the Feds and Covies would be able to trade ship for ship in a straight fight. The question is, which side is more able to keep it up over the course of years, even decades? The only way to end a war with the Covenant is to either beat them to where they can longer fight or join them. Federation on the other hand seems to get tired of war quickly.

[Fortuna]

I think the Feds and Covies would be able to trade ship for ship in a straight fight. The question is, which side is more able to keep it up?

I think that as time goes on, you give the Covies too much credit.

[Lamech]

Transporters... can be blocked by standing next to electrical transporters.
That seems to be in specific cases. For example the feds are perfectly capable of moving stuff around in their electrical equitment filled ships.

Some forms of radiation and substances, usually minerals such as kelbonite, prevented transporters from working. In most instances the interference was caused by scattering of the annular confinement beam or sensor interference preventing a transporter lock
The sensors though are crazy good, and will probably have very little trouble getting a lock.
Messing with the confinement beam is very leathal to the peeps being transported. Which may make it tricky to steal covanent tech. Of course, killing covanent soldiers still won't be a problem.

Nonetheless, if we are to argue in a versus debate, what is on screen is canon. But we see cases in which they do. We don't know why they couldn't do it here, but they can do it some of the time.

Regardless by "on-screen" the fed ships are stuipidly powerful, as mentioned in an isoton example above voyager (not a warship IIRC) has planet wrecking weapons on it.

[An Enemy Spy]

I think that as time goes on, you give the Covies too much credit.

I've been saying they would win since the beginning. I think they have just too many numbers for the Federation to handle.

[Fortuna]

By too much credit, I mean that I doubt that they could manage one-for-one or even one-for-two or three once Starfleet got started. Starfleet is just tactically better off.

[An Enemy Spy]

I just think everybody here is giving too much credit to the Federation. Somebody has to speak up for the Aliens, and I seem to be the only one doing that. Their shields are definately powerful enough to give them a good chance against federation ships, their infantry is infinitely superior, they have immensly powerful weapons capable of gutting ships in a single shot, and they are utterly ruthless. They have literally no qualms about doing horrible things to their enemies. Starfleet may be strong, but they're explorers at heart. The Covenant are conquerors.

[shadow_archmagi]

The Covenant is huuuuuge and would totally win through its vastly superior numbers

Er, what? According to the Halo Wikia, after 27 years of war with Halo Humanity, the covenant had killed 23 billion humans in its genocide.

That is, with the covenant actually attacking and humanity losing planet after planet, they still only lost the equivalent of five (modern day) earths.

This suggests that either humanity in the Haloverse is spread out over many, many worlds it had only just barely colonized, or it occupies a handful of earth-sized colonies.

Either way, Halo shows us that an army less advanced than the Covenant and considerably smaller than the Federation is able to more than stand up to the Covies.

The Space United Nations is capable of taking out covenant ships with modern-day technology; antimatter torpedoes shouldn't have ANY difficulty.

[An Enemy Spy]

Er, what? According to the Halo Wikia, after 27 years of war with Halo Humanity, the covenant had killed 23 billion humans in its genocide.

That is, with the covenant actually attacking and humanity losing planet after planet, they still only lost the equivalent of five (modern day) earths.

This suggests that either humanity in the Haloverse is spread out over many, many worlds it had only just barely colonized, or it occupies a handful of earth-sized colonies.

Either way, Halo shows us that an army less advanced than the Covenant and considerably smaller than the Federation is able to more than stand up to the Covies.

Not true. The only reason the UNSC lasted 27 years was because that's about how long it took for the Covenant to find their many many worlds. Once the Covenant discovered a planet, it was pretty much game over for anyone on it.

[KingOfLaughter]

So I just want to say that the UNSC only lasted so long, due to the primitive firearms, super soldiers (Which is I remember correctly, The Federation doesn't have), and cheap tactics, such as using their FTL drives to cut entire covy ships in half (Like Jorge did in reach).

Also (If this hasn't already been said) Halo is based a lot more in reality, and everything the humans have is technically possible, we're just too slow tech wise to have it ATM.

[Lamech]

I just think everybody here is giving too much credit to the Federation. Somebody has to speak up for the Aliens, and I seem to be the only one doing that. Their shields are definately powerful enough to give them a good chance against federation ships, their infantry is infinitely superior, they have immensly powerful weapons capable of gutting ships in a single shot, and they are utterly ruthless. They have literally no qualms about doing horrible things to their enemies. Starfleet may be strong, but they're explorers at heart. The Covenant are conquerors.

Being utterly ruthless is not the way to deal with people who, if sufficiently angered, can pull out weapons that one shot planets. Its a way to watch as their phase cloaked ships erradicate your civilization. After the first or second glassed world the federation will do that.



Not true. The only reason the UNSC lasted 27 years was because that's about how long it took for the Covenant to find their many many worlds. Once the Covenant discovered a planet, it was pretty much game over for anyone on it. This does not bode particullarly well for the covies if it takes them 27 years to run down the earth controlled worlds. The feds will have no trouble finding a huge number of covie worlds and genesising them.



Also (If this hasn't already been said) Halo is based a lot more in reality, and everything the humans have is technically possible, we're just too slow tech wise to have it ATM. Luckily for the feds they are not based in reality, giving them a huge advantage.

[Theodoriph]

With regards to bioweapons, the answer is yes. If the Feds perceive a threat as major, they are not beyond exterminating their race via biowar (e.g. the founders). They do so unofficially through section 31.


Edit: With regards to phasers they're somehow intelligent. They can completely vaporise an object they strike or they can leave a scorch mark at the point they target. The same holds true for people. They can completely vaporise them, or just punch right through them. I can only assume that phasers must have some telepathic link with the wielder of the weapon instructing them of how they should operate. I wish I could come up with a better explanation that doesn't involve writers...but I can't.

[Fortuna]

Telepathy? What? Phasers have multiple settings. That's it.

[Lamech]

Edit: With regards to phasers they're somehow intelligent. They can completely vaporise an object they strike or they can leave a scorch mark at the point they target. The same holds true for people. They can completely vaporise them, or just punch right through them. I can only assume that phasers must have some telepathic link with the wielder of the weapon instructing them of how they should operate. I wish I could come up with a better explanation that doesn't involve writers...but I can't.

They have a lot of settings: Punch through organic matter, but leave the ship untouched. DOOM RAY!!! Stun and cause no lasting damage. Heat water. Dig a whole. Cause explosion. Sear flesh. Incinerate living organic matter, and clothing, but nothing else. Cook meat. Massage. Warm flesh. Light show. Disinfect. Ghost trapping.

Rather useful. A sad effect of the disinfect option on all star fleet phasers was its over usage and the evolution of phaser resistant bacteria.

Sadly far to few of these settings are made up. Phasers are very versitle and presumably most of the red-shirt training involves saftely setting phasers.

[CorrTerek]

I've been saying they would win since the beginning. I think they have just too many numbers for the Federation to handle.

It would take them too long to win. In the Halo series, they're fighting against a vastly inferior force (for the most part) and it takes them 27 years to wipe out the equivalent of 5 earths.

Federation worlds are more plentiful, but the Covenant would also be dealing with a foe that is technologically equal to them in many ways, and superior to them in others. Factor in that the Federation is comprised of a number of alien races (significantly more than the Covenant, I believe), all of whom would no doubt be very quick to join in the war effort once the Covenant glassed their first planet, and the Federation has a whole host of abilities to draw on that the Covenant can't match.

They couldn't glass enough worlds fast enough.

[dgnslyr]

Hrm, that depends: Are there more grunts or Red Shirts? My first guess would be that there are more grunts, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Or maybe all the overly-killed-off nameless faceless nobodies have gotten so tired of dying that they buddy up and go clubbing.

[leafman]

Couple of questions before I get started,

What kind of point defense do Federation ships have i.e. do they have any defense against boarding craft that is not the main phaser array?

What is the maxium effective range of transporters?

I think some people in this thread are forgetting that the Covenant have slipspace drives and can cross distances in days that would take the Federation months or years. You guys are talking like warp speed is so fast the Covenant would crap themselves.

[dgnslyr]

IIRC, Transporters have a range equal to whatever is convenient to the plot. Generally speaking, it will be long enough to reach a planet from orbit, though ship-to-ship transports also happen quite often, at ranges comparable to that of ship-to-ship weaponry.

[Fortuna]

What kind of point defense do Federation ships have i.e. do they have any defense against boarding craft that is not the main phaser array?

I think some people in this thread are forgetting that the Covenant have slipspace drives and can cross distances in days that would take the Federation months or years. You guys are talking like warp speed is so fast the Covenant would crap themselves.

Well, effective force fields are the main one. Any hull breach, including a boarding party, would be instantly sealed off and probably then voided into space.

How quickly can a Covenant ship enter FTL?

[Fortuna]

IIRC, Transporters have a range equal to whatever is convenient to the plot. Generally speaking, it will be long enough to reach a planet from orbit, though ship-to-ship transports also happen quite often, at ranges comparable to that of ship-to-ship weaponry.

Also, it is possible (albeit difficult) to do it at interplanetary distances.

[Rob Roy]

How quickly can a Covenant ship enter FTL?

According to Halopedia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/FTL) they can traverse a 9000 light year distance in the span of 24 hours, but I'm not sure if that answers your question. Also It say's that they can use their FTL engine in a planets atmosphere, and since I (so far) have only watched TNG and the new movie, I'm not sure if a warp drive could do that without horrible things happening. If they did that, the Covenant could eliminate having to go into space altogether, giving them a significant advantage. At least in the short term.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm not sure if a warp drive could do that without horrible things happening. If they did that, the Covenant could eliminate having to go into space altogether, giving them a significant advantage. At least in the short term.

In Halo 2, the covenant warp from inside a city. We see an enormous white wall of light exploding pretty much the whole city.

EDIT:

Query:

What are the comparative ranges of their ship to ship weapons?

[mangosta71]

According to Halopedia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/FTL) they can traverse a 9000 light year distance in the span of 24 hours, but I'm not sure if that answers your question.

That's cool and all, but... Federation ships can travel backward in time, so they can arrive 9000 light years away before they even leave.

[Sipex]

So a Covenant fleet would be a lot bigger than this. If the ships seem to about equal power, Covies smash the Fed fleet, use infantry to take out any important suface facilities and then glass the planet in a matter of hours.

I would like to point out that it takes more than a matter of hours to glass a planet.

I've got a friend who's a walking halo encyclopedia and I don't remember the exact number but it's something like 23 days for a planet with the same amount of land mass as the earth.

Also, interesting fact about glassing, one of the earth's government sects greatly overexaggerates glassing and actually coined the term in order to invoke hatred and positive action against the covy force.

Sorry, every time we play he has new facts.

[stcfg]

As for the range of their weapons energy projectors (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Energy_projector) are considered long range for covenant weaponry with a range of over 100000 km.

Photon torpedoes (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo) have a range slightly below 300000 km. A new type of photon torpedo with a range of 8 million km was put into production sometime after Voyager was launched.

So the Federation definitely has edge in range of ship to ship weapons

[Joran]

I would like to point out that it takes more than a matter of hours to glass a planet.

I've got a friend who's a walking halo encyclopedia and I don't remember the exact number but it's something like 23 days for a planet with the same amount of land mass as the earth.

Also, interesting fact about glassing, one of the earth's government sects greatly overexaggerates glassing and actually coined the term in order to invoke hatred and positive action against the covy force.

Sorry, every time we play he has new facts.

That's actually not that impressive, depending on the size of the fleet.

The Obsidian Order (Cardassians) and Tal Shiar (Romulans) put together a fleet of 20 ships and bombarded the Dominion homeworld. According to their calculations they would have annihilated the crust in one hour and the mantle in five.

Federation ships have comparable firepower.

[shadow_archmagi]

As for the range of their weapons energy projectors (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Energy_projector) are considered long range for covenant weaponry with a range of over 100000 km.

Photon torpedoes (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_torpedo) have a range slightly below 300000 km. A new type of photon torpedo with a range of 8 million km was put into production sometime after Voyager was launched.

So the Federation definitely has edge in range of ship to ship weapons

Fascinating. Also, are we sure the Covenant is really that much bigger? I was looking through the wiki and couldn't find anything about their total size.

From the Star Trek wiki:

"The Federation was located in the Alpha Quadrant of the Milky Way Galaxy. By the early 2370s, the Federation's territory was spread across 8,000 light years, with a membership of over 150 worlds and over 1,000 semi-autonomous colonies."




So, if I recall correctly:

FEDERATION ADVANTAGES:
Better sensors
Infinite food
Superior Range
Superior Firepower
Superior Generals
Superior Adaptability, both scientific and tactical
FTL Communications

COVENANT ADVANTAGES:
Vastly superior infantry
Maybe numbers?

[Urist]

One thing that has been forgotten about by both sides is the Covenants ability to make precision Slipspace jumps over large and small distances. Standard Covenant tactics include jumping out of the way of missiles(can't track through Slipspace) and right into the middle of enemy formations, whereupon they open up with a massive broadside. They can even jump into atmospheres. Would be interesting to see how the Federation deals with a Covenant ship hanging in Earth atmosphere over Paris and San Francisco, and disgorging infantry, such as the Covies did during the attack on New Mombasa.

[Mordaenor]

So, when I first saw the title of this thread, I had this image of Worf fighting off vampires. Isn't Covenant a Vampire: Masquerade term as well or something? Maybe I'm mixing it up with something else. Sorry.

Anyway, I do have to put my vote in with the Federation on this one. To quote one of my favorite Star Trek villains, "I've found it wise never to underestimate Starfleet's ingenuity, or Captain Sisko's resourcefulness."

[mangosta71]

How long does it take them to set up for a jump, though? How much time do they need between jumps? How fast are the missiles they're evading, and how fast are Federation weapons?

[Rob Roy]

One thing that has been forgotten about by both sides is the Covenants ability to make precision Slipspace jumps over large and small distances. Standard Covenant tactics include jumping out of the way of missiles(can't track through Slipspace) and right into the middle of enemy formations, whereupon they open up with a massive broadside. They can even jump into atmospheres. Would be interesting to see how the Federation deals with a Covenant ship hanging in Earth atmosphere over Paris and San Francisco, and disgorging infantry, such as the Covies did during the attack on New Mombasa.

The only one of those that matters is the jumping into atmospheres though, since if the Federation wanted, it could just ring around a star and send ships back in time.

That's cool and all, but... Federation ships can travel backward in time, so they can arrive 9000 light years away before they even leave.

Also, that's an awesome username, STRIKE THE EARTH!.

[Lamech]

One thing that has been forgotten about by both sides is the Covenants ability to make precision Slipspace jumps over large and small distances. Standard Covenant tactics include jumping out of the way of missiles(can't track through Slipspace) and right into the middle of enemy formations, whereupon they open up with a massive broadside. They can even jump into atmospheres. Would be interesting to see how the Federation deals with a Covenant ship hanging in Earth atmosphere over Paris and San Francisco, and disgorging infantry, such as the Covies did during the attack on New Mombasa.

The federation can do this with warp for everything except the atmosphere one. But sending in unshielded infantry is a great way for them to get teleported into space.



Also from Halopedia (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Shiva-class_Nuclear_Missile)
■It should be noted that the shields of Covenant capital ship have enough power to absorb a full thermonuclear blast from long distances, but not a direct hit.This doesn't bode well for a battle against forces that throw out weapons stronger than nukes (photon torps) like candy.

[An Enemy Spy]

Fascinating. Also, are we sure the Covenant is really that much bigger? I was looking through the wiki and couldn't find anything about their total size.

From the Star Trek wiki:

"The Federation was located in the Alpha Quadrant of the Milky Way Galaxy. By the early 2370s, the Federation's territory was spread across 8,000 light years, with a membership of over 150 worlds and over 1,000 semi-autonomous colonies."




So, if I recall correctly:

FEDERATION ADVANTAGES:
Better sensors
Infinite food
Superior Range
Superior Firepower
Superior Generals
Superior Adaptability, both scientific and tactical
FTL Communications

COVENANT ADVANTAGES:
Vastly superior infantry
Maybe numbers?

The thing about the Covenant is that nobody knows how big they are. Aside from their homeworlds and one planet called Joyous Exaltation, no other planets have ever been mentioned. We do know that they have a lot of worlds though, if less than the UNSC at the beginning of the war (roughly 800, tough most only sparsely populated.)

[mangosta71]

We do know that they have a lot of worlds though, if less than the UNSC at the beginning of the war (roughly 800, tough most only sparsely populated.)
Does the "roughly 800" apply to the UNSC or the Covenant? Either way...

From the Star Trek wiki:

"The Federation was located in the Alpha Quadrant of the Milky Way Galaxy. By the early 2370s, the Federation's territory was spread across 8,000 light years, with a membership of over 150 worlds and over 1,000 semi-autonomous colonies."
...they're outnumbered. So, the Covenant's only advantage is a superior infantry force? Does not bode well for them.

[Kobold-Bard]

Does the "roughly 800" apply to the UNSC or the Covenant? Either way...

...they're outnumbered. So, the Covenant's only advantage is a superior infantry force? Does not bode well for them.

1000 colonies is not greater than 800 worlds. Not by a long shot. Most of those colonies are the size of a small country, maybe a fully populated moon.

[An Enemy Spy]

Does the "roughly 800" apply to the UNSC or the Covenant? Either way...

...they're outnumbered. So, the Covenant's only advantage is a superior infantry force? Does not bode well for them.

Most of those colonies are defenseless frontier lands with little to no people. If the Federation tried to defend them all, they would be stretched so thin that the Covies could steamroll them anywhere they wanted.

[Sipex]

That's actually not that impressive, depending on the size of the fleet.

The Obsidian Order (Cardassians) and Tal Shiar (Romulans) put together a fleet of 20 ships and bombarded the Dominion homeworld. According to their calculations they would have annihilated the crust in one hour and the mantle in five.

Federation ships have comparable firepower.

Oh yeah, I'm not arguing that it's impressive. It's pretty tame. A few weeks to destroy a planet (or rather, make uninhabitable). Lots of time to retaliate.

[An Enemy Spy]

Since when has it taken that long? In The Cole Protocol it took less than a day to glass that planet with all the rioters.

[Sipex]

I will need to ask him for his source but he's pretty reliable on this sort of thing.

We like to joke that his PHd is in Halo-ology (shut up, I know it's not a word)

[An Enemy Spy]

According to Halopedia, it takes from several hours to at most two days.

[Sipex]

How up to date is this? I'm thinking this might be a development with the release of Halo Legends.

[An Enemy Spy]

Nothing ever gets glassed in Halo Legends. It's always bee like that. The planet Reach was almost completely glassed within hours of the UNSC's defeat.

[mangosta71]

1000 colonies is not greater than 800 worlds. Not by a long shot. Most of those colonies are the size of a small country, maybe a fully populated moon.
The statement that most of the Covie's 800 worlds are "sparsely populated" leads me to believe that they're not significantly bigger than one of the Fed's colonies.

[An Enemy Spy]

The statement that most of the Covie's 800 worlds are "sparsely populated" leads me to believe that they're not significantly bigger than one of the Fed's colonies.

I was talking about the UNSC's planets. The Covenant has existed for thousands of years. I'm sure they have lots of heavily populated planets.

[Lamech]

Most of those colonies are defenseless frontier lands with little to no people. If the Federation tried to defend them all, they would be stretched so thin that the Covies could steamroll them anywhere they wanted.The covies took 27 years and still couldn't defeat the significantly less powerful humans in Halo. They won't have this kind of time against the feds since the federation has uber-sensors, and has planet destroying weapons. The federation will annihilate them and call it good.

[mangosta71]

I was talking about the UNSC's planets.
So the UNSC had about 800 planets? Fair enough.

We do know that they have a lot of worlds though, if less than the UNSC at the beginning of the war (roughly 800, tough most only sparsely populated.)
This statement says outright that the Covenant has fewer planets than the UNSC, and the parenthetical aside implies strongly that their population is, like that of the UNSC, sparse on most of their worlds.

[Selrahc]

I was talking about the UNSC's planets. The Covenant has existed for thousands of years. I'm sure they have lots of heavily populated planets.

Certainly at least 8 are heavily populated, the homeworld's of the 8 core species plus the giant city ship that serves as the capital of the covenant empire(Elite and Prophets share a homeworld).

Whether or not the federation has more worlds seems pretty immaterial though. What matters is the level of mobilization on those worlds. The Covenant is a culture built for war, where entire species are mobilized to fight or contribute to the war effort in some other way. The federation works on a much lower level of mobilization, with an entirely voluntary process that accepts only the best of those volunteers. Even if the Federation has many more planets, the numbers advantage may still rest with the Covenant.

[Seraph]

Whether or not the federation has more worlds seems pretty immaterial though. What matters is the level of mobilization on those worlds. The Covenant is a culture built for war, where entire species are mobilized to fight or contribute to the war effort in some other way. The federation works on a much lower level of mobilization, with an entirely voluntary process that accepts only the best of those volunteers. Even if the Federation has many more planets, the numbers advantage may still rest with the Covenant.

Of course, the Federation also has Replicator technology and would probably be more willing to staff ships with holograms than it would be to suffer a crushing defeat, so if the Federation decided to fight with absolutely no compunctions they could build themselves a fleet of starships crewed by ECH!Doctor copies in a fairly small timeframe.

[An Enemy Spy]

So the UNSC had about 800 planets? Fair enough.

This statement says outright that the Covenant has fewer planets than the UNSC, and the parenthetical aside implies strongly that their population is, like that of the UNSC, sparse on most of their worlds.

The parenthetical aside is saying that the UNSC has many sparsely populated worlds, mainly because they are relatively new compared to earth and don't have that many cities. There is no reason for an alien empire that has existed for thousands of years to be made up mostly of small colonies.

[chiasaur11]

Of course, the Federation also has Replicator technology and would probably be more willing to staff ships with holograms than it would be to suffer a crushing defeat, so if the Federation decided to fight with absolutely no compunctions they could build themselves a fleet of starships crewed by ECH!Doctor copies in a fairly small timeframe.

But the feddies NEVER DO THAT.

Seriously, if Wolf 359 didn't convince them to use every dirty trick in the book, nothing will.

If they used half the tech they had to potential, they'd make the Culture and the Q combined look like pikers. They don't.

So, what the Feddies could do isn't what they would do, or anywhere close.

[AstralFire]

Replicators can't be used for some important elements of starship technology, to my recollection.

That said, I'm still not buying a Covenant win.

[Kobold-Bard]

Replicators can't be used for some important elements of starship technology, to my recollection.

That said, I'm still not buying a Covenant win.

Specifically dilithium aka. starship fuel.

Also latinum, but that's probably not important in this scenario.

[Fortuna]

On the other hand, if I understand correctly then dilithium isn't so much starship fuel as a needed stabilizing element. It forms a 'dilithium matrix' which contains and directs the antimatter-matter reaction.

[stcfg]

But the feddies NEVER DO THAT.

The Prometheus (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prometheus_class) class starship is specifically designed to be crewed by a crew in the single digits and powerful enough to curbstomp a Romulan D'deridex class, what would be considered a capital ship for them. During the brief period it was shown, it was staffed by only by 2 EMH doctors with no tactical programming and it still managed win the fight.

It was made during the Dominion war because of manpower shortages on the Federation's part. The only reason we didn't see it in full production was that it was still an experimental prototype.

So having a fleet of replicated starship piloted by holograms is well within what the Federation is both able and willing to do.

Dilithium can't be replicated but its value as plot device dropped dramatically once they learned to recrystallize and recycle it.

[The Big Dice]

If they used half the tech they had to potential, they'd make the Culture and the Q combined look like pikers. They don't.
The Feds don't have the capability to build a Culture Orbital. Those things are the size of planets. The Federation might have good computers, but a Culture Mind isn't just on another level. It's literally mostly on another plane of existence and spends subjective years in Fun Time Happy Space every few nanoseconds.

The Federation have nothing to compare to even the most basic of Drone. Or even the knife missile that carries a copy of a Drone's personality in Matter.

Any of the In-Play species from the Culture novels far outstrips any technological species I can think of in movies and TV. With the possible exception of the Time Lords.

As for the Q, when they had their civil war, individual "shots" that the Continuum fired were causing supernovae. Not just novae like most stars become. Full blown supernovae.

Comparing any species to the Q is like comparing a slime mould that lives exclusively in one pond to an interplanetary civilisation on a par with the Culture.

[Fortuna]

Not quite true. The wormhole entities of DS9 are only ten points below them in the arbitrary scale of trek. They're comparable, but it's like a pre-warp culture (us) and the Feds.

[shadow_archmagi]

The thing about the Covenant is that nobody knows how big they are. Aside from their homeworlds and one planet called Joyous Exaltation, no other planets have ever been mentioned.

We do know that they have a lot of worlds though, if less than the UNSC at the beginning of the war

So, you have no idea whether the covenant is big. You're assuming they're big because they've been around for awhile.

Then you go ahead and say "if less than the UNSC"

I find it entirely possible that the covenant is fairly small. After all,

1. They're all absolutely crazy.
2. The fleets they send to attack Earth, which appears to be their greatest enemy, are not particularly large. If they were that huge they'd attack with bigger fleets.

[AstralFire]

So, you have no idea whether the covenant is big. You're assuming they're big because they've been around for awhile.

Then you go ahead and say "if less than the UNSC"

I find it entirely possible that the covenant is fairly small. After all,

1. They're all absolutely crazy.
2. The fleets they send to attack Earth, which appears to be their greatest enemy, are not particularly large. If they were that huge they'd attack with bigger fleets.

Actually, they didn't know it was Earth. Otherwise, I agree.

[pffh]

The Covenant, also referred to as the Covenant Empire was a religious hegemony of multiple alien species that controlled a large portion of the Orion Arm in the Milky Way galaxy.

According to the halopedia and according the same site all of the UNSC controlled planets were also in the same arm.

Now the Orion arm is around 3500 light years across and 10000 light years long. The 8000 light years of federation space is that the width of the federation?

All in all it looks like the federation is the around same size or larger then the covenant (especially if we take into account that habitable planets seem to be more common in the trek verse).

[Sipex]

Okay, so I brought this up with my friend, I apparently misheard his 'Glass the planet' bit. It took the covenant around 23 days to defeat the forces on Reach, then glass it.

On the matter of ship power. Comparing recorded ship power output that the federation has vs the technology the Covenant uses (Fusion Reactor Tech) the Federation ships are stronger via output. I don't have the numbers but this comes from a guy who loves both series unfalteringly and knows his stuff. He's not going to lie to see the side he likes win, he's going to tell the truth for the sake of science.

He also brought up that the federation fiddles with the technology they get and learns from it while the Covenant refuse to do so (as it's unholy).

Teleportation was also brought up.

Dematerialising ground troops was also brought up. Not teleporting, just making them not exist anymore. Basically, using the first part of teleportation technology without resolving it.

[mangosta71]

I find it entirely possible that the covenant is fairly small. After all,

1. They're all absolutely crazy.
2. The fleets they send to attack Earth, which appears to be their greatest enemy, are not particularly large. If they were that huge they'd attack with bigger fleets.
Even more possible when we consider that their priority is and always has been war. They don't really seem to care about exploring or colonizing - those require resources that could otherwise go toward military efforts.

[AstralFire]

Even more possible when we consider that their priority is and always has been war. They don't really seem to care about exploring or colonizing - those require resources that could otherwise go toward military efforts.

Military exploration, actually. The pursuit of more Forerunner artifacts and forcing any species met in the process to join them.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah. The covies are in a state of constant war, rather than finding new planets and building farms and stuff.

Also, notice how the brutes on guard duty complains about hunger. Clearly they don't have their economics in order. I'd expect that in a war, it'd be pretty easy for Feddies to cut their supply lines.

It'd probably be pretty easy to promise the brutes infinite steak, and that'd seal the deal for them.

[An Enemy Spy]

Brutes are always hungry. Just because I feel peckish every now and then doesn't mean the United States is out of food.
They'd probably been standing guard all day and hadn't eaten in several hours.

[The Grue]

I just think everybody here is giving too much credit to the Federation. Somebody has to speak up for the Aliens, and I seem to be the only one doing that.

You realize we're talking about imaginary space empires right? Why do you have so much personal stake in this discussion?

[An Enemy Spy]

None at all. I just like the image of the enterprise getting blown up by a CCS Cruiser.

[Rob Roy]

I just think everybody here is giving too much credit to the Federation. Somebody has to speak up for the Aliens, and I seem to be the only one doing that.The Federation has more aliens in it than the Covenant.

[An Enemy Spy]

Do they call them Aliens? Seems alittle geocentric to me.

[Rob Roy]

Do they call them Aliens? Seems alittle geocentric to me.
They don't, but I was. (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alien)

[chiasaur11]

They don't, but I was. (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alien)

Kirk and McCoy did too.

But they were kind of jerks.

[druid91]

Well.. I probably missed something, but if the federation does it's usual thing of accepting hails from enemies then they are dead. They now have covenant hackers in their system and now everything is theirs, they have the schematics to every common technology and now know why their commander just vanished jump to slip-space regroup and come back to crush the feds.

[Fortuna]

I'm intrigued. Just how good are Covenant hackers? Bearing in mind that the Borg, a cyborg hive mind who are brilliant with computers, can't hack over Federation com links and can be locked out even with direct invasive contact on the cards.

[Rob Roy]

I'm intrigued. Just how good are Covenant hackers? Bearing in mind that the Borg, a cyborg hive mind who are brilliant with computers, can't hack over Federation com links and can be locked out even with direct invasive contact on the cards.
Also remember that at one point Data hacked the Borg.

[druid91]

Very good, To the scale that the UNSC had it down for high treason if you didn't wipe every scrap of non essential data. You were headed right to jail/ executioner if you didn't.

[The Big Dice]

Very good, To the scale that the UNSC had it down for high treason if you didn't wipe every scrap of non essential data. You were headed right to jail/ executioner if you didn't.

The Federation seem to routinely encrypt shipboard computer systems, and have access to some insanely secure ones. The Borg are certainly one of the most computer literate races I can think of in sci-fi, and the Federation regularly manage to lock them out of their systems.

I'd say Federation computer networks are pretty well defended. Maybe not perfectly secure, but they'd be able to detect an attempt to hack them and take precautions.

[druid91]

The Federation seem to routinely encrypt shipboard computer systems, and have access to some insanely secure ones. The Borg are certainly one of the most computer literate races I can think of in sci-fi, and the Federation regularly manage to lock them out of their systems.

I'd say Federation computer networks are pretty well defended. Maybe not perfectly secure, but they'd be able to detect an attempt to hack them and take precautions.

IIRC the UNSC did as well. The grunts are just that good. You know why grunts spoke English in the first halo while none of the other aliens did? Because each grunt knows around 3-4 human languages. They are used as cannon fodder because there are tons of them, not because they are all that dumb.

[Rob Roy]

IIRC the UNSC did as well. The grunts are just that good. You know why grunts spoke English in the first halo while none of the other aliens did? Because each grunt knows around 3-4 human languages. They are used as cannon fodder because there are tons of them, not because they are all that dumb.
They're able to lock the Borg out of their systems. A hive mind made out of technology. All knowledge that a single Borg Drone has, every other one has as well. Presumably they have assimilated a really good hacker. The Federation still beats them all the time.

[Mikeavelli]

Very good, To the scale that the UNSC had it down for high treason if you didn't wipe every scrap of non essential data. You were headed right to jail/ executioner if you didn't.

This was because of the Cole Protocol, aimed at preventing the Covenant from finding out about earth in the event a ship got captured. It wasn't because the covenant had 1337 H4XORZ who could hack thier computers over comm lines.

I've never heard \ read anything good about the technical abilities of the Covenant, especially in regards to hacking.

[druid91]

The fall of reach talks about their ability to hack through comm lines. They were hacking into the ships and only stopped because the Humans lucked out and tried to send a message, the covenant thought it was a counter-hack and started shooting.

[Mando Knight]

Kirk and McCoy did too.

But they were kind of jerks.

"Alien," to Kirk, didn't mean "someone not from Earth," it meant "a non-human whose females I would like to bed."

[shadow_archmagi]

Well.. I probably missed something, but if the federation does it's usual thing of accepting hails from enemies then they are dead. They now have covenant hackers in their system and now everything is theirs, they have the schematics to every common technology and now know why their commander just vanished jump to slip-space regroup and come back to crush the feds.


1. Wait, what? Super-hackers that break into your ship via telephone? What.

2. I seriously doubt that they could assimilate and process that much information that quickly.

3. Okay, so, worst case scenario, they get access to all of Enterprise's technology. CONGRATS! They don't use any of it because it isn't Forerunner.

[druid91]

I may have missed something, but the covenant don't exclusively use forerunner tech, heck just look at halo 3 and the brute stuff that got brought in. Forerunner tech is sacred and not for messing with, but it isn't the only thing they use.

They don't invent, their whole thing is stealing others technology.

[An Enemy Spy]

They made a rudimentary AI modeled off Cortana in First Strike. It managed to get the drop on her too.

[Fortuna]

The fall of reach talks about their ability to hack through comm lines. They were hacking into the ships and only stopped because the Humans lucked out and tried to send a message, the covenant thought it was a counter-hack and started shooting.

Regardless, a 'race' with literally trillions of members linked in real-time communications, including at least one race which had sufficient facility with languages and computer codes to learn them after a few sentences/lines. An entire race of super-genii, each one a better linguist and hacker than anything humanity can dream of at the moment, and they can't hack the federation through comm lines. Plus, the federation can lock data from access to on-the-spot teams with nanotechnology and have it stand up to them for (I believe) several hours.

[dgnslyr]

know why grunts spoke English in the first halo while none of the other aliens did? Because each grunt knows around 3-4 human languages. They are used as cannon fodder because there are tons of them, not because they are all that dumb.

I thought it's because they're basically comic relief, so it doesn't really matter? Also, knowing human languages means they can plead for their lives that much more effectively.

[druid91]

I thought it's because they're basically comic relief, so it doesn't really matter? Also, knowing human languages means they can plead for their lives that much more effectively.

That my friend is metagaming.:smalltongue:

[leafman]

IIRC the UNSC did as well. The grunts are just that good. You know why grunts spoke English in the first halo while none of the other aliens did? Because each grunt knows around 3-4 human languages. They are used as cannon fodder because there are tons of them, not because they are all that dumb.

It wasn't Grunts that were the hackers, it was the Engineers (Huragoks) which is an artificial species created by the Forerunners and like their name are completely devoted to technology and engineering. They have been observed repairing and reverse engineering human tech very quickly. I would put them on par with Data, give or take a little bit.

http://www.halopedian.com/Huragok

[chiasaur11]

Regardless, a 'race' with literally trillions of members linked in real-time communications, including at least one race which had sufficient facility with languages and computer codes to learn them after a few sentences/lines. An entire race of super-genii, each one a better linguist and hacker than anything humanity can dream of at the moment, and they can't hack the federation through comm lines. Plus, the federation can lock data from access to on-the-spot teams with nanotechnology and have it stand up to them for (I believe) several hours.

Uh, the borg are kinda...

how should I put this.

Special.

Someone goes on their ship? Ignored.

Impossible shape?

They process it so as to ensure it wipes them all out.

They don't know tactics, everything useful they have is swiped from someone else, they haven't developed any defenses against melee attacks despite years of experience, and for a finisher?

They lost to the VOYAGER.

Not saying the covvies could hack without an engineer right on the bridge, but let's not treat the Borg as anything impressive in the brains department.

[druid91]

It wasn't Grunts that were the hackers, it was the Engineers (Huragoks) which is an artificial species created by the Forerunners and like their name are completely devoted to technology and engineering. They have been observed repairing and reverse engineering human tech very quickly. I would put them on par with Data, give or take a little bit.

http://www.halopedian.com/Huragok

Really? Could have sworn I read that it was the grunts..:smalleek:

[AstralFire]

They made a rudimentary AI modeled off Cortana in First Strike. It managed to get the drop on her too.

It got the drop on her while she was very busy doing other things. I don't recall much being made out of the covenant computer skills in Fall of Reach, Halo, or First Strike.

[Lamech]

Well.. I probably missed something, but if the federation does it's usual thing of accepting hails from enemies then they are dead. They now have covenant hackers in their system and now everything is theirs, they have the schematics to every common technology and now know why their commander just vanished jump to slip-space regroup and come back to crush the feds. If the federation have any brains at all, trying to hack their computer systems via the comm links they open to enemy ships will be like trying to hack my computer through my radio. It isn't possible. If they pulled it off in Halo then the humans screwed up.

Even if they could I truly doubt they can suddenly figure out how to interface with a wholly new operating system with out time to study it. And even if they did understand the operating system I doubt that the starships carry around on the computer network connected to the comm a "how to build guide" on every piece of federation equitment. Or a more importantly "why it works" guide. And even if they did it will tell them nothing about such jewels as phase cloak, or the genesis device.

[leafman]

Grunts do know several human languages because they like to scan the void of space for human communications, they like our TV broadcasts :smallcool:

[AstralFire]

As far as I know, grunts don't actually know Human; the Master Chief's helmet just translates.

[druid91]

As far as I know, grunts don't actually know Human; the Master Chief's helmet just translates.

Well, I dug out my halo 3 limited edition or special edition thingymawhosit (Yes it's a word just go with it). I was indeed wrong about the grunts being super hackers. The covenant still are, It's just not the grunts behind the controls.


The positions they hold within the Covenants rigid class structure have more to do with genus bias than inherent ability.

It goes on to say that because they are small, need their suits to live, and they breed quickly has led them to being cannon fodder. Or as the book says..


Although their principal enforced function tends more toward drowning their foes in bodies and blood,

Then it talks about languages.


Their unburdened neural pathways allow them to absorb knowledge more freely than their peers, so they are tasked with monitoring the void, for signs of human communication. As a result, most Unggoy have a working knowledge of two or more Human languages. This has become a source of pride for them and, in times of great stress, also serves as a reservoir of confidence.

[Sipex]

The more you know.

This thread has taught me a lot about halo and star trek.

[shadow_archmagi]

This thread compelled me to go back and watch TNG.

By all that's holy, Picard is rad.

[crankycow]

Read up to page 4 so sorry if this has been gone over, but it seems Federation ground forces value has been totally discarded. They have disintegration pistols! Granted, most of the people on the show using it are relatively inept, but a real strike team armed with rifle versions beamed to the bridge would almost certainly fry the bridge crew (I believe there was a Star Trek special-forces style computer game, but I'm not familiar with it or if it has canon equipment). Also, phasers seem to work like lasers, meaning instant, compared to slow moving covenant plasma. That's a major disadvantage outside of close range. I would imagine a Data-style android, with superior strength, speed, reflexes, aiming, and target tracking software could tear up Elites while dodging plasma if a phaser set on "turn you to ash" mode goes through shields. That being said, if most of the Federation are standard Red Shirts (which are about as good at hitting things and not dieing as stormtroopers) they are in a bit of a pickle in an infantry engagement.

My vote is for the Federation, for a simple reason. The Covenant are using the standard sci-fi meme of using ancient alien equipment beyond their means to replicate or understand. It also appears (but I may be off on this) that they have an Imperium-style culture set against understanding it, since it may lead to everyone find out the High Prophets are playing everyone. Judging from two different Bungie franchises, if you can get a friendly AI on board the alien ship they will use it 10x better than the crew that is just winning through brute force size and tech without much finesse, and will at least blow the crap out of them even if they plan on leaving later.

Q on Federation technology: Just how good is replicator technology? It can recreate seemingly anything very quickly, so how fast can it build a warship? Even if they can't replicate a new ship in one go, surely it create individual components to greatly speed up production? It seems like the Federation should be able to produce ships faster than it can train crews to operate them, and given a war they just might start using AI to fly them. Industrial base beats advanced technology any day of the week in a drawn-out conflict.

Q on Covenant technology: Does it take them any time to "spin up the FTLs," or do they just press a button like on ST? Can they change direction without slowing to sub-FTL? Is there a good comparison of distance traveled for a given time to measure speed in any of the books? Does it take time to charge after use or can they zip off again?

[druid91]

Read up to page 4 so sorry if this has been gone over, but it seems Federation ground forces value has been totally discarded. They have disintegration pistols! Granted, most of the people on the show using it are relatively inept, but a real strike team armed with rifle versions beamed to the bridge would almost certainly fry the bridge crew (I believe there was a Star Trek special-forces style computer game, but I'm not familiar with it or if it has canon equipment). Also, phasers seem to work like lasers, meaning instant, compared to slow moving covenant plasma. That's a major disadvantage outside of close range. I would imagine a Data-style android, with superior strength, speed, reflexes, aiming, and target tracking software could tear up Elites while dodging plasma if a phaser set on "turn you to ash" mode goes through shields. That being said, if most of the Federation are standard Red Shirts (which are about as good at hitting things and not dieing as stormtroopers) they are in a bit of a pickle in an infantry engagement.

My vote is for the Federation, for a simple reason. The Covenant are using the standard sci-fi meme of using ancient alien equipment beyond their means to replicate or understand. It also appears (but I may be off on this) that they have an Imperium-style culture set against understanding it, since it may lead to everyone find out the High Prophets are playing everyone. Judging from two different Bungie franchises, if you can get a friendly AI on board the alien ship they will use it 10x better than the crew that is just winning through brute force size and tech without much finesse, and will at least blow the crap out of them even if they plan on leaving later.

Q on Federation technology: Just how good is replicator technology? It can recreate seemingly anything very quickly, so how fast can it build a warship? Even if they can't replicate a new ship in one go, surely it create individual components to greatly speed up production? It seems like the Federation should be able to produce ships faster than it can train crews to operate them, and given a war they just might start using AI to fly them. Industrial base beats advanced technology any day of the week in a drawn-out conflict.

Q on Covenant technology: Does it take them any time to "spin up the FTLs," or do they just press a button like on ST? Can they change direction without slowing to sub-FTL? Is there a good comparison of distance traveled for a given time to measure speed in any of the books? Does it take time to charge after use or can they zip off again?

This much I know for sure, The covenant don't only use Forerunner tech, The only ones that I know of who use a lot of it are the prophets. Ships aside, the slip-space systems are fore-runner. Most of their gear is developed by the various races of the covenant. The lek'golo collectives for instance are supposed to be geniuses most of the time, it is merely the hunter pair variant that isn't super intelligent, not sure whether the scarab version is or not. The elites sustained an all out war with the prophets before the two races joined forces to create the covenant. Which implies that at the very least elites knew how to fly around in space as well as the prophets could.

I'm not sure about replicators. But it's star trek they always just do whatever is most convenient that week, and if it gets contradicted in the same episode? the merely reversed the polarity on the negative power thingamabob to make it better. I'm not dedicated enough to figure it out.

As for the covenant, they are masters of slip-space jumps. They do things that were thought impossible by humans. Such as jumping around in system to close for combat.

[An Enemy Spy]

Read up to page 4 so sorry if this has been gone over, but it seems Federation ground forces value has been totally discarded. They have disintegration pistols! Granted, most of the people on the show using it are relatively inept, but a real strike team armed with rifle versions beamed to the bridge would almost certainly fry the bridge crew (I believe there was a Star Trek special-forces style computer game, but I'm not familiar with it or if it has canon equipment). Also, phasers seem to work like lasers, meaning instant, compared to slow moving covenant plasma. That's a major disadvantage outside of close range. I would imagine a Data-style android, with superior strength, speed, reflexes, aiming, and target tracking software could tear up Elites while dodging plasma if a phaser set on "turn you to ash" mode goes through shields. That being said, if most of the Federation are standard Red Shirts (which are about as good at hitting things and not dieing as stormtroopers) they are in a bit of a pickle in an infantry engagement.

My vote is for the Federation, for a simple reason. The Covenant are using the standard sci-fi meme of using ancient alien equipment beyond their means to replicate or understand. It also appears (but I may be off on this) that they have an Imperium-style culture set against understanding it, since it may lead to everyone find out the High Prophets are playing everyone. Judging from two different Bungie franchises, if you can get a friendly AI on board the alien ship they will use it 10x better than the crew that is just winning through brute force size and tech without much finesse, and will at least blow the crap out of them even if they plan on leaving later.

Q on Federation technology: Just how good is replicator technology? It can recreate seemingly anything very quickly, so how fast can it build a warship? Even if they can't replicate a new ship in one go, surely it create individual components to greatly speed up production? It seems like the Federation should be able to produce ships faster than it can train crews to operate them, and given a war they just might start using AI to fly them. Industrial base beats advanced technology any day of the week in a drawn-out conflict.

Q on Covenant technology: Does it take them any time to "spin up the FTLs," or do they just press a button like on ST? Can they change direction without slowing to sub-FTL? Is there a good comparison of distance traveled for a given time to measure speed in any of the books? Does it take time to charge after use or can they zip off again?

One problem. Data doesn't kill on purpose. It's against his programming.

[hamishspence]

One problem. Data doesn't kill on purpose. It's against his programming.

Given that he's taken command of a starship, and used it in battle, this doesn't make sense.

He probably won't kill if he thinks it's unnecessary- but one would expect him to at least be capable of doing so.

[The Glyphstone]

Plus, it doesn't have to be Data doing the killing, just a similar android, or at least one with comparable physical abilities, even if they can't replicate the sentience protocols.

Or just find Lore and talk him into doing it. He's Data without the inhibitions or sanity.

[druid91]

Plus, it doesn't have to be Data doing the killing, just a similar android, or at least one with comparable physical abilities, even if they can't replicate the sentience protocols.

Or just find Lore and talk him into doing it. He's Data without the inhibitions or sanity.

But lore would be the most likely to try and cut a deal with the covenant.