[3.5] Bloodlines.... wut?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok, bloodline seems like an interesting (though a bit squicky) concept, and I think it would be cool/fun to play a character that bears some kind of bloodline.

The problem is, I don't really get how do bloodlines work, so can anybody explain it to me?

By my understanding, at certain points of your character career, you take bloodline levels, which don't advance anything but level-calculated abilities, similar to LA. Is that right?

also by taking a Major bloodline you would be an ECL 20 with 17 HD.

Is there anything that I am missing?

[The-Mage-King]

Ok, bloodline seems like an interesting (though a bit squicky) concept, and I think it would be cool/fun to play a character that bears some kind of bloodline.

The problem is, I don't really get how do bloodlines work, so can anybody explain it to me?

By my understanding, at certain points of your character career, you take bloodline levels, which don't advance anything but level-calculated abilities, similar to LA. Is that right?

also by taking a Major bloodline you would be an ECL 20 with 17 HD.

Is there anything that I am missing?

Nope. That's about it.

It does count as a class level for caster level (but not spells) and save DCs, though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh I see, well I feel dumb for making them (in my mind) more complicated than they were.

[Frosty]

I wonder if they'd count towards Initiator Levels

[Dusk Eclipse]

well they were written much more earlier than Initiator classes, and they do advance CL so I would say yes, worst case scenario, just half an IL as normal,

[Master_Rahl22]

Yes, I'm almost certain Bloodlines count for Initiator Level. The reason for this is that one of the builds for getting all 9th level maneuvers gets a level of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade then uses Bloodlines to advance the IL for all 3 simultaneously.

Another cheesy thing Bloodlines can be used for is extending class abilities from short PrCs, like the extra damage from Hellfire Warlock. As long as the ability is worded something like "For each level of x, you gain y" then it continues to be advanced by Bloodlines.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, I'm almost certain Bloodlines count for Initiator Level. The reason for this is that one of the builds for getting all 9th level maneuvers gets a level of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade then uses Bloodlines to advance the IL for all 3 simultaneously.

Another cheesy thing Bloodlines can be used for is extending class abilities from short PrCs, like the extra damage from Hellfire Warlock. As long as the ability is worded something like "For each level of x, you gain y" then it continues to be advanced by Bloodlines.

Less cheesier than Legacy champion, as by my reading you would only increase it by 3, and if you take the bloodlines levels in the order it seems to be intended (3, 6 and 12) you could only increase Hellfire Warlock once, as you can't enter the class before level 9 or so.

[Person_Man]

In general they're a huge waste, as you can get more from class levels. In particular, you give up any potential capstone ability, which is a big deal for the Knight, Warblade, Swordsage, any Pathfinder class, etc.
Notable exceptions:

As mentioned, it theoretically lets you progress Hellfire Warlock and similar PrC beyond the 3 level limit. However, I don't actually know any DM who allows this.
If you're playing in a low level game, you can pick up a minor benefit for free without giving anything up. ECL 11 or lower for Minor, 5 or lower for Intermediate, and 2 or lower for Major.
Titan Bloodline lets you "Use Oversized Weapon" as per a Titan. This means a Gargantuan warhammer. This is particularly hilarious/awesome for Small/Tiny/Fine builds.

[Callista]

It works great if a DM gives everyone a bloodline, though. That way you keep balance and everybody gets interesting powers. If you give them all the same bloodline, you can base a quest on it.

[Darrin]

Yes, I'm almost certain Bloodlines count for Initiator Level. The reason for this is that one of the builds for getting all 9th level maneuvers gets a level of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade then uses Bloodlines to advance the IL for all 3 simultaneously.


One Bloodline level adds +1.0 IL to all your martial adept base classes (or PrCs), and +0.5 IL to any non-martial adept classes. With all three Bloodline levels, a series of one-level dips (each one counting as +2.0 or +4.0 IL, depending on their adept-ness) allows you to pick up 9th level maneuvers around ECL 10ish or 11ish (depending on if you count Bloodline levels toward ECL, and if the levels themselves count as +0.5 ILs).

Basset King's 1d2 "infinite damage" Crusader can be accomplished around ECL 9 that way. But you can't get enough of the prereqs that way to get more than a few 9th level maneuvers. You need 43 prereqs to get all nine, and even a Swordsage 15/MoN 5 has some trouble getting them all: 25 from Swordsage + 10 from Master of Nine + 2 feats (7 - 5 for MoN) = 37. The Crown of the White Raven type items help (37 + 9 = 45), but some rumblings that using magic items that way was a bit dodgy rules-wise.

Because the mechanics of Bloodline levels are so poorly described (or not described at all), it's a huge headache... and I still have no idea if the Bloodline levels themselves add +0.5 IL. I've heard rumors of a Bloodline build getting all nine, but never actually seen one put together. Even the most die-hard optimizers seemed to think it would be a bit too much.

Legacy Champion is a bit cleaner, since it's pretty clear that Legacy Champion 1 and 7 = +0.5 IL, and Legacy Champion 2-6, 8-10 = +1.5 IL. Not only does Legacy Champion advance your IL, it also gets you new maneuvers, which Bloodline levels don't do. Weapons of Legacy predates ToB, so it's somewhat possible that Reshar might have used Legacy Champion to get all nine 9th level maneuvers pre-epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137260).

I think I saw a guide on BG somewhere that explained how you calculate ECL and XP for Bloodline levels, but I can't recall who posted it... and I'm not sure I agree with all his interpretations.

EDIT: Ah, here it is. PlzBreakMyCampaign's Bloodlines Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863198/Balanced_Bloodlines_Interpretation_38;_Implementat ion?num=10&pg=1).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Less cheesier than Legacy champion, as by my reading you would only increase it by 3, and if you take the bloodlines levels in the order it seems to be intended (3, 6 and 12) you could only increase Hellfire Warlock once, as you can't enter the class before level 9 or so.

Actually, two points: First, bloodline levels count as effective levels, they don't progress existing levels or anything like that; if you have 3 bloodline levels and take a level of HFW, you have 4 effective levels and thus start with +8d6 hellfire damage. Second, you can take them at any point, it's just that if you delay taking them you don't get the bloodline benefits until you take those levels; if you don't want to be squishy at low levels, you can go warlock 10/HFW 3 and then take 3 bloodline levels, at which point you gain all of the bloodline benefits for your level.

[JaronK]

A big point about Bloodlines: they don't increase your ECL. Thus, a 3rd level character with the first part of a major bloodline is still ECL 3, so in a party full of fourth level characters he actually gains exp faster until he catches up to them. In this way, Bloodlines have a built in version of LA paydown (from the same book).

They add to any effect that's based on class level, but only things that actually say they're based on class level. For example, they don't increase sneak attack (because that's gained at specific levels, and even though it goes up every two levels by an obvious formula the increase isn't listed only as 1d6 per two levels). They do increase hellfire warlock however, which just says it gets 2d6 per level. They increase caster level, but not Animal Companion level... though I could never figure out why on that last part (it's in the FAQ). They should increase Effective Binder Level.

This effect applies to all classes, which gets silly with initiator levels (because all classes add 1/2 initiator level per class level, so a Fighter 1/CW Samurai 1/Hexblade 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Crusader 1 with two bloodline levels actually has an initiator level of 10.5).

And note the Titan bloodline gives you the titan ability, but it's not the Powerful Build you think it is. It lets you wield a specific size of warhammer only, regardless of your actual size... so it's hilarious on a Halfling, but not nearly as useful on an Enlarge Person'd orc with strongarm bracers.

JaronK

[term1nally s1ck]

Purely RAW, since gaining a level doesn't cost anything, when you 'take a level' in a bloodline, you actually *speed up* how fast you gain levels. The XP gained from the next encounter will be increased as per lower ECL, but because you're already above the threshold for the next level according to your ECL, you can take the next level instantly. (only reason you didn't before is the 1 level per encounter rule.)

This is, however, a completely insane way to actually use it, so people by default assume it costs the XP of your level/the next level to take, at least making it vaguely balanced (if still ridiculously easy to abuse.)

[JaronK]

You still take the level,it's just that your ECL doesn't go up. So a third level character with a bloodline needs the same amount of exp to hit level 4 as a normal character needs to hit level 5. However, they do gain that exp much faster, due to being lower ECL.

JaronK

[term1nally s1ck]

Levelling is done by total XP and ECL, not by XP earned since last level. It's in the PHB.

Basically, REALLY stupid editing.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Levelling is done by total XP and ECL, not by XP earned since last level. It's in the PHB.

Basically, REALLY stupid editing.Basics have been covered so only thing to mention is that no DM I have heard of says they would allow this level of sticking to RAW (if so, I'd love to bring some candles for free wishes :smallsmile:)

Related is the increased rate of xp gain (aka experience is a river) occurs only during level differentials with your party and if the DM uses hard enough encounters (as I do) this won't occur. If you use the DMG default distribution of "overpowering" level encounters then simply use party average ECL - this means the character with the BL stays permanently behind in xp by the amount payed.

Note that this is the RAI for LA buyoff (suggesting even the UA authers didn't think rule lawyers would take that section of the PHB literally)