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Kobold-Bard
2010-11-24, 03:33 PM
I like the type of character that can do a bit of everything, but I dislike Bards because Bardic Music does nothing for me.

Obviously we have the factotum for that but ignoring it for now, would a version of the Sorcerer/Rogue/Fighter work, or is the hodge podge method just too subpar? Maybe with Warblade in place of Fighter etc.

Thanks in advance,
K-B

AstralFire
2010-11-24, 03:37 PM
I used to think like you - I would swap out Bardic Music for something else, myself. I don't see Sorc/Rogue/Fighter working too well.

Do you dislike the fluff or the mechanics of Bardic Music? There's solutions for both.

Kobold-Bard
2010-11-24, 03:38 PM
I used to think like you - I would swap out Bardic Music for something else, myself. I don't see Sorc/Rogue/Fighter working too well.

Do you dislike the fluff or the mechanics of Bardic Music? There's solutions for both.

Both. Singing in combat is dumb, and I'm going for a more Red Mage feel than party buffer.

AstralFire
2010-11-24, 03:41 PM
Both. Singing in combat is dumb, and I'm going for a more Red Mage feel than party buffer.

You could always do Perform (comedy) and crack one-liners.

And you can fuel a lot of alternative tricks with Bardic Music - frankly, Bard with Inspire Courage optimization can make a passable TWFer because he can guarantee massive attack and damage bonuses.

Mongoose87
2010-11-24, 03:41 PM
I suppose a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard going into something like Unseen Seer could work. 2E it was more viable, though, although Nale didn't qualify.

Eldariel
2010-11-24, 03:41 PM
As said, Fighter/Rogue/Sorc is stretching yourself too thin. Rogue 1/Sorc 4 (or better, Wiz)/Unseen Seer with Divine Power could work, however. That or some Fochlucan Lyrist-build, which gets divine casting too but is otherwise what you're trying to do. Basically, Fochlucan is a really hard-to-enter class advancing both castings with full BAB and good skills.

It tries to be the 1e Bard, more or less (and succeeds quite well). It advances Bardic Music but you don't strictly need it to enter. So that's something I'd look at. Fochlucan is the only high skill casting class with naturally full BAB, so in that sense it seems relevant to your interests.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-24, 03:41 PM
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.
What part of +1 morale hit/dam/save to charm/fear don't you like? What about +4 instead with minimal cost?

If you were going Fighter/Sorceror/Rogue:
I'd do Rogue 1st for skill points/then Sorceror/Fighter if need a feat.
Granted I'd switch fighter for Warblade/Psi warrior/Duskblade, etc since Fighter offers so little.


I suppose a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard going into something like Unseen Seer could work. 2E it was more viable, though, although Nale didn't qualify.

Actually, he does.
Start as Fighter till 2nd level then dual to Thief to 3 or more than dual to Mage 4. Once he reaches Mage 4 he can now backstab and cast spells (if he backstabbed as a mage he gains no XP if not higher level mage than Thief)
It is hard as you need 15 Str/17 Int/17 Dex to do that.

arguskos
2010-11-24, 03:45 PM
Actually, yeah, I bet you it could be done. Let's see... Rogue 1 (for skills and 1d6 SA)/Fighter 4 (feats, profs, and BAB)/Sorc 4 (trust me :smallwink:)/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10.

Ok, this is a terrrrrrrriible build for any optimized game, though probably quite decent in a non-op game. However, it fits what Nale seems to do (since we rarely see him cast).

If you want Sorc/Rog/Ftr that *works*, let's try this on instead:
Ftr 1/Rog 1/Sorc 4/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/EK 10. That gets you Sorc 16. You could also do Ftr 1/Rog 1/Sorc 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/fullcastingprc 6. I'm sure there's a cleaner way to do this, but I don't know it atm.

Having both Fighter and Rogue levels REALLY cuts into the casting progression.

EDIT: Folks, he doesn't like Bardic Music. This isn't about changing that opinion, but building a Sorc/Ftr/Rog that doesn't make us cry inside.

Kobold-Bard
2010-11-24, 03:46 PM
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.
What part of +1 morale hit/dam/save to charm/fear don't you like? What about +4 instead with minimal cost?

Not the effects, the whole performing thing is what doesn't do anything for me.

Eldariel
2010-11-24, 03:46 PM
Actually, yeah, I bet you it could be done. Let's see... Rogue 1 (for skills and 1d6 SA)/Fighter 4 (feats, profs, and BAB)/Sorc 4 (trust me :smallwink:)/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10.

Ok, this is a terrrrrrrriible build for any optimized game, though probably quite decent in a non-op game. However, it fits what Nale seems to do (since we rarely see him cast).

If you want Sorc/Rog/Ftr that *works*, let's try this on instead:
Ftr 1/Rog 1/Sorc 4/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/EK 10. That gets you Sorc 16. You could also do Ftr 1/Rog 1/Sorc 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/fullcastingprc 6. I'm sure there's a cleaner way to do this, but I don't know it atm.

Having both Fighter and Rogue levels REALLY cuts into the casting progression.

The principal issue with all that is that the classes you're forced to use don't grant you skill points so you're not much of a Rogue. You'd need classes like Unseen Seer in the mix, but without a full BAB 4+Int casting class you're still hardpressed (I suppose you COULD try something with Swiftblade and Unseen Seer). That's why I said it really just can't be done without Fochlucan Lyrist; nothing combines fighting AND skills AND casting except Fochlucan.

arguskos
2010-11-24, 03:50 PM
The principal issue with all that is that the classes you're forced to use don't grant you skill points so you're not much of a Rogue. You'd need classes like Unseen Seer in the mix, but without a full BAB 4+Int casting class you're still hardpressed (I suppose you COULD try something with Swiftblade and Unseen Seer). That's why I said it really just can't be done without Fochlucan Lyrist; nothing combines fighting AND skills AND casting except Fochlucan.
Have you SEEN Nale's plans?! They're clearly made by someone with 2+Int skills, since they're all harebrained and seem to rely on the other people being thick. Hell, the thing he's best at is fighting, so I focused on that.

He never really casts anything, he doesn't make good plans, but he seems to be a competent fighter and highly charismatic. My thought is that he probably is fighter-base with a rogue level or two mixed in, and sorc somewhere for giggles.

AstralFire
2010-11-24, 03:50 PM
I just wanted to check to make sure he was aware a Bard isn't necessarily singing in combat; that's changed things for a few people before.

Eldariel
2010-11-24, 03:55 PM
Have you SEEN Nale's plans?! They're clearly made by someone with 2+Int skills, since they're all harebrained and seem to rely on the other people being thick. Hell, the thing he's best at is fighting, so I focused on that.

He never really casts anything, he doesn't make good plans, but he seems to be a competent fighter and highly charismatic. My thought is that he probably is fighter-base with a rogue level or two mixed in, and sorc somewhere for giggles.

Meh, I'd say that's more exemplary of his Wisdom being exceptionally low without stellar Int. He seems very much like Elan in that regard, really. Maybe bit higher; 10 Int, 8 Wis or so. But...I mean, if the OP wants a Rogue/Fighter/Sorc, well, I think Fighter/Sorc with 1 level of Rogue is a sort of a copout :smallwink:

Tael
2010-11-24, 03:57 PM
Did someone say Factotum? Because that's really the best way to go.

arguskos
2010-11-24, 04:00 PM
Meh, I'd say that's more exemplary of his Wisdom being exceptionally low without stellar Int. He seems very much like Elan in that regard, really. Maybe bit higher; 10 Int, 8 Wis or so. But...I mean, if the OP wants a Rogue/Fighter/Sorc, well, I think Fighter/Sorc with 1 level of Rogue is a sort of a copout :smallwink:
He never does anything Roguish though. Sneak Attacks don't come up much (given the nature of this comic to announce them, he never has as far as I'm aware). He's cast something like 5-10 spells in 761 comics. He mostly yammers on and on, and fights, which is something he's been represented to be decent at, if not stellar.

If you want a more "even" build, then something such as the following could work (if it's ugly as all hell):
Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Sorc 5/Spellsword 1/Arcane Trickster 10.

Frankly, I kinda dislike that build for Nale (or a Nale-esque character) since he just doesn't seem that "skilled".

Eldariel
2010-11-24, 04:01 PM
Ok, ok, I'll try:

Rogue 1/Sorc 4/Unseen Seer 3/Swiftblade 9/Unseen Seer +3.

This gets you:
- 16 BAB by the end of your career (assuming Fractional BAB).
- 8th level spells (CL 16)
- Base skills 4x8+Int, 6x6+Int, 9x4+Int, 4x2+Int (sorry) - Averages a bit under 5+Int/level which isn't terrible (though yes, it could be better).


He never does anything Roguish though. Sneak Attacks don't come up much (given the nature of this comic to announce them, he never has as far as I'm aware). He's cast something like 5-10 spells in 761 comics. He mostly yammers on and on, and fights, which is something he's been represented to be decent at, if not stellar.

If you want a more "even" build, then something such as the following could work (if it's ugly as all hell):
Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Sorc 5/Spellsword 1/Arcane Trickster 10.

Frankly, I kinda dislike that build for Nale (or a Nale-esque character) since he just doesn't seem that "skilled".

Yeah, I agree that Nale doesn't appear like a Rogue at all. But I figured the OP rather wants a Fighter/Rogue/Sorc than an exact build for Nale (correct me if I'm wrong, of course).

Amphetryon
2010-11-24, 04:01 PM
You mentioned Warblade. Can I interest you in something in a nice Crusader? :smallsmile:

Rogue 2/Sorc 4/Crusader 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Abjurant Champion 1, for instance?

J.Gellert
2010-11-24, 04:03 PM
Take ranks in Perform (ritual). Your class abilities are not songs, they are complex incantations and spells. Therefore you are not a bard, you are a mage.

As long as your DM lets that fly...

AmberVael
2010-11-24, 04:05 PM
A viable build involving sorcerer, rogue, and fighter (or maybe warblade?)

Start off human- gives you a bonus feat, and bonus skills, and qualifies you for Able Learner, which will be quite good for your build. Probably put at least a 12 into Int, so you'll get a minimum of 4 skill points per level (paltry, but will allow you to hit the requirements you need to hit for Unseen Seer).

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 4/Warblade 1

Leaves you with 5d6 sneak attack, casting as a level 18 sorcerer (and thus 9th level spells), and +14 BAB.

At lower levels you'll rely on stealth and spells- smacking people in the back with things like orbs to get max sneak attack/damage dealing fun. At higher levels is when you'd actually be capable of going out more into main combat. You'd probably be utilizing numerous protective spells, and you might want to take the Arcane Strike feat (from Complete Warrior) to boost attack and damage. The warblade dip would get you a nice number of maneuvers to add some spice to the build- it can be taken earlier at your discretion, just keep in mind that the later you take it, the more high level maneuvers you'd gain.

It is hardly the best build, but it does give you full spellcasting and some neat fighting and skill abilities, if not particularly many of them. Other things to consider would be taking more ToB stuff and entering into Jade Phoenix Mage, swapping Sorcerer for Beguiler, or swapping out Abjurant Champion for a class with a bit more punch (it isn't a particularly amazing class, but it certainly is easy for this build to qualify for, and helps you round out the numbers you'll desperately need to stand any kind of chance in melee). For the cost of a BAB, you could also consider switching Warblade for Swordsage, which might give you more appropriate maneuvers... but BAB and HP would be low enough in this build anyway, so that might not be the greatest idea.

Susano-wo
2010-11-24, 04:05 PM
I think the real killer is the sorc angle. You have to either suck as a sorcerer, or take a build that gives a brief nod toward the fighter and rogue. Rogue and fighter together are fine, and assuming he has at least 12INT (which he does, given his ability to scheme, etc), he will get 4pts a lvl to spend on skills even aside from rogue levels. Assuming rogue 1st lvl, he can choose, say 3 skills to always max (say, hide move silently bluff), and spend his other points bumping up the other skills to decent levels. Not pretty by any means, but can work.

BUt that sorc, yeesh. hmm...his best bet I think is Battle Sorc/Rogue, with maybe arcane trickster to make his sorc not , say, 10th lvl in terms of spells per day.
Not what he actually is, but would accomplish the same thing, more or less

Tael
2010-11-24, 04:13 PM
I think the real killer is the sorc angle. You have to either suck as a sorcerer, or take a build that gives a brief nod toward the fighter and rogue. Rogue and fighter together are fine, and assuming he has at least 12INT (which he does, given his ability to scheme, etc), he will get 4pts a lvl to spend on skills even aside from rogue levels. Assuming rogue 1st lvl, he can choose, say 3 skills to always max (say, hide move silently bluff), and spend his other points bumping up the other skills to decent levels. Not pretty by any means, but can work.

BUt that sorc, yeesh. hmm...his best bet I think is Battle Sorc/Rogue, with maybe arcane trickster to make his sorc not , say, 10th lvl in terms of spells per day.
Not what he actually is, but would accomplish the same thing, more or less

Yeah, even Fighter/Sorc would work, as gishes are quite good, but the combo of the 3 is terrible. (without Factotum that is)

Prime32
2010-11-24, 04:23 PM
Not the effects, the whole performing thing is what doesn't do anything for me.My avatar is an example of a bard who uses Perform (oratory) to activate his Inspire Courage. Maybe with some martial adept levels and Song of the White Raven. Here he's using Countersong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iViJCC_cJfo)

nedz
2010-11-24, 04:28 PM
This reminds me of the time I tried to build a classic old school Elf Fighter/Rogue/Wizard. I gave up, not that triple threat isn't possible - just not this way.

In the end I decided that Fighter was just pointless.

I looked at Rogue/Beguiler but thats hard to get into a decent PrC with, without resort to, at least minor, shenanegans.
(yes - I know about the Mage Hand cantrip)

Zen Monkey
2010-11-24, 04:28 PM
If you like bard effects, but don't like singing, refluff it into an instrument instead. I had a primitive bard that used a drum instead (pound fiercely for war, slow to help someone concentrate on a skill). It also allowed for fun roleplay of making drums from various monster bones/skulls/hides etc.

Flickerdart
2010-11-24, 04:49 PM
Core-only (since OotS doesn't seem to stray from that), Rogue 3/Sorcerer 6/Fighter 2/Arcane Trickster 8 is half-decent, you get 7th level spells and 6d6 sneak attack. Armed with Scorching Rays and metamagic, it can be a decent blaster.

Tael
2010-11-24, 04:59 PM
Best alternative Bardic Performances:

Perform (Tactics): Self explanatory, you command your allies to work better.

Perform (Berserk Frenzy): You get really mad, and make your allies rage too. Classic Berserkergang material.

Perform (Guitar Solo): Shred some riffs and get your allies all worked while still being cool.

Perform (Fighting): You're such an awesome fighter that your allies are inspired to do better.

Perform (Badass): You're just that awesome.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-24, 05:01 PM
This reminds me of the time I tried to build a classic old school Elf Fighter/Rogue/Wizard. I gave up, not that triple threat isn't possible - just not this way.

In the end I decided that Fighter was just pointless.

I looked at Rogue/Beguiler but thats hard to get into a decent PrC with, without resort to, at least minor, shenanegans.
(yes - I know about the Mage Hand cantrip)

In 2E, I find Cleric/Ranger a better combo than Fighter/Thief/wizard.

nedz
2010-11-24, 05:03 PM
Perform (Feng Shui) - just make sure that the bodies all fall in the right direction

Psyren
2010-11-24, 05:08 PM
Shugenja make great "red mages." Blasty, healy, can cast fine in armor, even (short)sword proficiency.

SAD too

ericgrau
2010-11-24, 05:36 PM
I think that was the point of Elan's "needlessly complicated" comment; Nale is just a poor way to be a bard. A rogue 1 / ranger 1 / wizard / eldritch knight might work. Rogue is optional if the skills you want are in ranger. Decent BAB, decent casting, not many skills but enough. Once you get them as class skills as a rogue you can max them out normally but at double price. But mixing classes without prcs is pretty lousy.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-24, 05:41 PM
What spells has Nale demonstrated the ability to cast? The only one I remember is Charm Person.

LibraryOgre
2010-11-24, 05:41 PM
I'd start with Rogue 2; 3 is nice, but 2 gets you Evasion, and that's pretty valuable. I'd then look into Ranger 1, for the important Favored Enemy: Human bonus; better than fighter, in this instance, since it gives you more skill points and less wasted armor proficiencies. From there, I'd go pure Sorcerer if sticking to base classes; otherwise, a Gish PrC.

You start off with a good base of skill points... 46 + 6*Int modifier + 6 (human) at 3rd level... some good options in combat (sneak attack for +1d6, with an additional +2 v. humans), and a number of class skills. You then segue into sorcerer, for tier-two casting.

You'll be short 9th level spells, because you've gone sorcerer, but you've got a good base of non-casting abilities and strong spell options as you go along. Plus, you can use wands and such.

Gorilla2038
2010-11-24, 05:45 PM
Theres always that weird fighter sub out of UA that gives sneak attack instead of feats. Then just standard gish.

LibraryOgre
2010-11-24, 05:47 PM
Perform (Tactics):
Perform (Berserk Frenzy):
Perform (Guitar Solo):
Perform (Fighting):
Perform (Badass):

Perform (Villain's Monologue): It lets him inform his allies of the plan, but can backfire.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-24, 06:13 PM
I'd include Fighter 3 with the Zhentarim Soldier sub level, or use Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 1, or more preferably Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny 2/ Swashbuckler 1 instead. This is clearly a Cha-based character, after all. It really depends on whether he's Chaotic or Lawful, judging by his schemes I'd guess Chaotic.

Use Rogue 4, preferably the Feat Rogue variant in UA/SRD to get three Fighter bonus feats instead of the 2d6 sneak attack. You'll want to take these at 1st and every odd-numbered level to maximize your ranks in your favorite Rogue class skills. A start like Feat Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 1 will get you five ranks in each of Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Jump, Sense Motive, and Tumble assuming Human with Int 12. That's some nice synergy bonuses and you can use your future Rogue levels to keep up your ranks in other skills and just leave those at 5's. You can spend two skill points each Rogue level bumping skills like Search, Slight of Hand, UMD, etc. up to max ranks, but keep in mind this will be half as many skills as you put ranks into at 1st level. Regardless of whether you use Fighter or an evil Paladin for levels 4 and 6, you should spend those skill points to put cross-class ranks into Concentration and Spellcraft, maybe spend some Rogue skill points on those as well if necessary.

That puts you at 7th level with a +6 BAB, some decent skills, and plenty of feats. At this point you should forget about using Sorcerer and instead go Suel Arcanamach 4/ Swiftblade 9. By level 20 that gets max Suel Arcanamach spellcasting, +18 BAB, 4+Int skill points for those last 13 levels, and all the amazing Swiftblade class features. For powerful options you can (Draconic) Polymorph into a Hydra and use Perpetual Options to make two bites with every head during a Spring Attack, though this will make the character feel a bit one-trick if used too often. Overall this creates a mostly combat-focused character with a lot of skills and a lot of buffs and other tricks later on, which fits Nale fairly well I think.

Draz74
2010-11-24, 06:36 PM
What spells has Nale demonstrated the ability to cast? The only one I remember is Charm Person.

Expeditious Retreat, Suggestion are the other two I remember offhand.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-24, 06:40 PM
Beguiler gets all of those spells, with skill points and class skills better than what a Sorcerer/Rogue would have. Maybe some kind of Beguiler/Fighter/etc. is in order?

Psyren
2010-11-24, 07:32 PM
What spells has Nale demonstrated the ability to cast? The only one I remember is Charm Person.

Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html)
Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)

Lev
2010-11-24, 07:41 PM
Both. Singing in combat is dumb, and I'm going for a more Red Mage feel than party buffer.
Why are you using core then? There's plenty of non-core classes like that.

Also, music in combat is awesome. Imagine watching a movie where there was no dramatic music.

And it's magical music, who says theres a limit to what type of music actually comes out? You could have a full song with multiple instruments going as a background and magically enhance your majesty while playing.

Here's 2 players about to roll up bards, one doesn't like bards, one does, just replace the word rock with bard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4an3rpucSos

grarrrg
2010-11-24, 09:02 PM
Did someone say Factotum? Because that's really the best way to go.

Yeah, the OP :smalltongue:


My suggestion is something a little more "stat friendly".
Let's go Int based, with Dex as a secondary.
Warblade has some decent bonuses with Int.
Replace "Sorc" with "Wiz"
Rogue, only take 1 level, preferably your First level to get HUGE x4 skill points, then instead of more Rogue take levels in...
Swashbuckler, 4 levels gets Int to damage, and the Daring Outlaw feat helps advance Sneak Attack.
Then either take a PrC that drops Spell Failure penalty so you can wear Light Armor and cast.
OR
If you can spare a feat, and can stomach a Monk dip, take Kung-Fu genius and get Int to AC.

Lazij Scalesong
2010-11-24, 09:37 PM
Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html)
Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)

He uses some form of paralysis when he switches spots with Elan (The part where he gives Elan his beard, and makes it look like Elan is him, and is about to sacrifice him)

Unless I remembered it wrong.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 09:42 PM
He uses some form of paralysis when he switches spots with Elan (The part where he gives Elan his beard, and makes it look like Elan is him, and is about to sacrifice him)

Unless I remembered it wrong.

Much more mundane than that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html) :smalltongue:

Lazij Scalesong
2010-11-24, 09:46 PM
... Oh. Wow. I think I failed a spot check there. Thanks for that.

Dang sneaky barbarians. When did they get Hide in Plain Sight as a class ability? :smallbiggrin:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-24, 10:46 PM
I'm pretty sure every comic character gets jump-in-from-off-the-panel.

If going for an Int-based Nale, switch Fighter for Swashbuckler, and only take three levels of it. The problem though is that most of the characters in that comic don't exactly use their high stats to the greatest advantage anyway. Roy is extremely smart, his father wanted him to be a wizard after all, but he chose fighter instead. The tier 1 characters don't exactly steal the show unless fighting other tier 1 opponents (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html), at which point they pull out all the stops (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html). None of the characters are exactly optimized, the Tier 1s are even single-classed when they would be better off taking prestige classes and don't play to the best of their abilities. Their opponents can have gimmicky builds which aren't exactly viable, but are good enough to pose a challenge to unoptimized PCs.

I'm sure Nale is a bit higher level than Elan and friends, and I'm guessing he's something like a Rogue 4/ Fighter 2+/ Sorcerer 6. Durkon's Control Weather (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html) looks like it was cast from a scroll, but he can still cast Righteous Might, so they're probably around level 10. That would put Nale at +8 BAB vs level 10 characters, but a bit low on HP. I'm sure he would have used Shield, Blur, stat buffs, and various other spells to gain an advantage in combat, and since the party spellcasters are busy dealing with other threats none of that gets dispelled.

As for the question of whether it's a viable build, it probably is but it takes some prestige classes. A slightly different class composition, such as replacing Fighter with a Paladin variant for Cha synergy, can make it a stronger character without changing the way it plays.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-24, 11:02 PM
Instead of Fighter/rogue, couldn't you just run it is Ranger? Ranger/Wizard with no wisdom and maxed int would match him pretty well.

Ditto
2010-11-24, 11:16 PM
The Order are approximately level 13-14 now. Durkon probably cast that from a scroll since you don't need to Control Weather very often, but it's a neat trick to have in your pocket in a pinch.

grarrrg
2010-11-24, 11:57 PM
from a scroll since you don't need to Control Weather very often, but it's a neat trick to have in your pocket in a pinch.

I'm not sure it can actually DO that.

Doug Lampert
2010-11-25, 12:23 AM
It's likely that the best way in Core to make a Bard without bardic music is to make a bard and simply never use your bardic music. This is STILL likely to be better at most things than Nale is.

It's certainly a better diplomancer which is one of the strongest things a bard can do in pure core.

It's also got higher caster level, better spells, comparable or better BAB, more and better skills. It lacks sneak attack and evasion, but that's really all you lose off the "Nale build" and you gain gobs otherwise.

Caster multiclasses are weak without a prestige class to back them, but the caster multiclass prestige classes mostly assume a dip into ONE non-caster core class, taking two makes you weak for an already poor option.

Bard meanwhile is a perfectly good class. Dumping one of the best combat buffs in the game for no particularly good reason (MOST historical armies had some form of musical accompanyment, a fairly substantial number of musical instruments were invented specifically for use on a battlefield) weakens the class substantially, but it's still better than an outright bad build.

Coidzor
2010-11-25, 03:38 AM
Don't want bardic music? There's a variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) that trades most of it away in exchange for a fighter. Loses Bardic Knowledge as well, though.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-25, 10:23 AM
Crazy idea: optimized-Nale is a Half-Fey Mineral Warrior. The Half-Fey side accounts for his ability to cast Suggestion, allowing his build to be more melee-focused, and the Mineral Warrior accounts for his lack of butterfly wings. This gives him, altogether, assuming the CR 12 mark from earlier:

DR 5/cold iron
DR 8/adamantine
Bonus Skill Points
Bonus Feat
Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -2, Cha +2
Immunity to enchantment spells/effects
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 60'
Burrow Speed 15'
Land Speed 30'
Natural Armor +3
Earth Strike 1/day
Spell-Like Abilities:
Charm Person at will
Hypnotism, Faerie Fire or Glitterdust, Sleep or Enthrall, Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Suggestion, Confusion or Emotion, and Eyebite or Lesser Geas 1/day
Detect Law 3/day
CR +2

Start him as something like Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1, with Penetrating Strike and Craven. Focus on sneak attack; the Sorcerer level can be there for spells like Distract Assailant or Blades of Fire or Critical Strike or who-knows what.

Jan Mattys
2010-11-25, 10:43 AM
I'm not sure it can actually DO that.

Sorry, Thor can't hear you over the sound of how awesome he is.
:smallwink:

Schylerwalker
2010-11-26, 01:51 AM
Actually, yeah, I bet you it could be done. Let's see... Rogue 1 (for skills and 1d6 SA)/Fighter 4 (feats, profs, and BAB)/Sorc 4 (trust me :smallwink:)/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10.

Ok, this is a terrrrrrrriible build for any optimized game, though probably quite decent in a non-op game.

Ah, this build does not actually work. Eldritch Knight requires third level spell casting to enter in addition to proficiency with all martial weapons.

Rogue 1/Warblade 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 9 would be better. Still relatively unoptomized, but with a respectable sixteen BAB and eighth level spellcasting.

wizuriel
2010-11-26, 12:10 PM
He never does anything Roguish though. Sneak Attacks don't come up much (given the nature of this comic to announce them, he never has as far as I'm aware).

Nale has done sneak attacks, he just doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html) yell them out.


As for build why not just try something like a spell thief?

Benejeseret
2010-11-26, 03:08 PM
I have always viewed Nale as a Marshal class mix. He tells others where to be, setting up his plans, and works primarily through tactics and being in command.

He is more of a melee fighter type and so a Fighter with the Sneak Attack variant swap would give him the higher BAB and some SA. Although not fully RAW possible he might even be a Thug variant Fighter as well as the SA swap to get more skills and theme.

Battle Sorcerer variant to cover the limited spells we've seen and cast in his chainshirt.

Marshal X/ Fighter (SA) X / Battle Sorcerer X

Cha as the main stat and mediocre everything else (except Wis based on his schemes' major flaws)

This grants a fairly high BAB, tactics and unique Cha uses to enhance combat abilities, some SA, and basics of spells he uses in armour.

dextercorvia
2010-11-26, 04:14 PM
I was thinking something needlessly complicated like:

Fighter1/Paladin3/Ranger2/SuelArcanamach1/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord2/AbjurantChampion+2/SacredExorcist6

Variants/ACF's: SA,Thug,Of Freedom,Harmonious Knight, Urban

BAB +16/ Essentially 20th level Sorcerer casting/SA 1d6/skills are a little weak

Benejeseret
2010-11-26, 04:42 PM
If the point is to do a bit of everything, and Nale is only an example, then it looks like there is a number of ways to do things.

I would still suggest looking into Marshal as with their inspirations you can basically boost any skill type for yourself and all allies plus a number of other good boons including caster level checks for spell resistance. This makes even a single dip to marshal as a Cha caster better then the whole Spell Penetration feat chain.

I have always viewed Marshals as bards without the artsy flair.