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View Full Version : What is the Swordsage "signature"Discipline? [3.5]



Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 04:51 PM
We all know that each one of the martial initiator classes have a shtick they were supposed to do (despite the versatility they can achieve, both RP wise and combat wise)

The Crusader is the holy warrior, which is empowered by his beliefs.
The Warblade is a fighter by nature, who finds armed conflict as the solution to everything.
And the swordsage, a mystic who uses martial skill and just a tiny sprinkle of actual magic, they are the most meditative of the three.

(Just going by the fluff of the book BTW)

And to show this, they have access to a specific discipline that somehow shows their intended roles.

Crusaders have Devoted spirit which gives them the strength and fortitude to overcome any enemy, Warblades learn the Iron Heart way, pure martial skill, fighting made art; and finally Swordsages have the only way to access to Desert Wind, Setting Sun and Shadow hand.

My question is, which of those three disciplines could be considered the Swordsage "signature" discipline.

I ask this, because I have been toying with the idea of houserulling that martial adepts can select (at first level) which disciplines they will pursue; but to avoid getting all the best disciplines and still maintaining a bit of the intended roles of the classes. Restricting Devoted Spirit to crusader, Iron Hear to Warblade, but due the above reasons I can't decide which would be the Swordsage-only discipline.

What do you think about it?

Edit: I decided to tally people opinions, here is a nice handy table
Discipline | # of votes
Desert Wind| 5
Shadow Hand|5
Setting Sun | 0

AstralFire
2010-11-24, 04:54 PM
I consider Desert Wind the iconic Swordsage discipline, myself - it's extremely flashy, movement focused, and while the Warblade focuses on one-target punishment and the Crusader on being a juggernaut, it gives the Swordsage mobility and the ability to take out mooks with a vengeance.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 04:58 PM
I think I'll start a tally of peoples thought.

Discipline | # of votes
Desert Wind| 2
Shadow Hand|2
Setting Sun | -2


BTW I forgot to say on the OP that personally I would say Shadow Hand, as Swordsages seems more like tricky fighters or combat pragmatist

Knaight
2010-11-24, 04:59 PM
There are two I feel have compelling arguments.

The first of these is Shadow Hand. The Swordsage is the lightly armored one of the three, Shadow Hand has a fairly high focus on stealth and mobility, with some subtle magic. Crusaders really don't seem at all appropriate for stealth in their default roles, Warblades are more questionable, as they operate as light, mobile combatants sometimes as called to mind by Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw.

The other is Desert Wind. Its the most blatantly magical school, the sword sage is noted for magic. Warblades seem horribly inappropriate here, however a Crusader throwing around holy fire seems quite reasonable, if rare. This is not a very powerful school though, which is a point in favor for Shadow Hand.

The one that doesn't make sense is Setting Sun. Everyone should be able to throw people around eventually, its a vestige of being a monk alternative, and should be free to all.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 05:02 PM
So do I count that as a vote for Shadow Hand to be the swordsages?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-24, 05:03 PM
The signature discipline of the quintessential Weeaboo Fighting Mage is obviously the school containing Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike. More seriously, when I take Swordsage levels to get its unique features I am generally thinking of Shadow Hand rather than judo or fire damage.

Knaight
2010-11-24, 05:04 PM
So do I count that as a vote for Shadow Hand to be the swordsages?

Count it as a negative against Setting Sun.

Emmerask
2010-11-24, 05:05 PM
Desert Wind and Shadow hand both in my oppinion

for the unarmed variant setting sun

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 05:05 PM
Ok that is another vote for shadow hand, I'll update the table

Also Foryn... when I started reading your post (the part of weaaboo fightig magic) I thought you were trying to troll, I am glad you didn't:smallsmile:

Morbis Meh
2010-11-24, 05:07 PM
desert wind

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 05:09 PM
Emerask, please only choose one. :smallsmile:

Fortuna
2010-11-24, 05:11 PM
Going to have to throw in another vote against setting sun. It can't be the signature discipline because I always forget the damned thing!

Ernir
2010-11-24, 05:15 PM
What do you think about it?

Eh... there isn't a Swordsage signature discipline, if you ask me. It's like asking what the signature school of a Wizard is. The class is designed to encompass multiple archetypes. :smallconfused:


Desert Wind Swordsages are Hadoken-firing Flaming Fists of Fire-wielding swordmages.
Shadow Hand Sworsages are supernatural ninjas.
Setting Sun Swordsages are superhuman (but not overtly supernatural) martial artists.


In other words, I'm not voting, I'm expressing my doubts about the premise that leads to the vote. =/

Knaight
2010-11-24, 05:16 PM
A compromise method.

Allow everyone but a swordsage to have either Desert Sun or Shadow Hand. Only the sword sage can have both. It looks like Setting Sun has absolutely no support as signature.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 05:17 PM
As I explained, for some reasons all the classes seems to have a signature school, and since I will ask the Crusaders have access to XXXX, Warblades access to YYYY and Swordsages to ZZZZ I wanted for them to be more customizable.

Does that make sense?

Eldariel
2010-11-24, 05:18 PM
All 3 of them. Swordsage is defined by having many kinds of unique abilities. The mystical nature of Desert Wind and Shadow Hand both makes them pretty much signature schools since Swordsage is the mystical warrior, while Setting Sun drills in the unarmed, martial side of things. So, yeah, my answer is "all 3". It just sort of serves to make the point that Swordsages study a wider base of maneuvers than the others.

You could split SS into multiple "focuses" depending on which school he picks. But all 3 define different SSs.

HunterOfJello
2010-11-24, 05:18 PM
In my mind their signature discipline is Shadow Hand.

I envision a swordsage as using an Elven Courtblade or Spiked Chain with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade who sneaks around in the dark and launches viscous attacks with deadly precision.

I do, however, enjoy the versatility and number of disciplines that swordsages have access to (barring Setting Sun which seems like it belongs to Warblades or Monks instead).

Runestar
2010-11-24, 05:19 PM
Desert wind for me, if only because I have read chinese comics with characters who are a dead ringer for fire-based swordsages. :smalltongue:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 05:20 PM
I actually really like the method that Knaight described above... though I think I'll continue with the voting for a bit more before I reach a decision

Aquillion
2010-11-24, 05:29 PM
All three. The Swordsage is meant to cover broader conceptual ground than the Crusader and Warblade.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 05:32 PM
I think we need to distinguish Armed and Unarmed Swordsages. Setting Sun makes way more sense for the latter.

And given the class focus on mind over matter, wouldn't Diamond Mind be pretty exemplary?

FMArthur
2010-11-24, 05:32 PM
This is like asking what the Ardent class's signature mantle is. It's variable, designed to be as modular as possible. :smallconfused:

The Swordsage is designed as an umbrella class for multiple different fantasy warrior archetypes without any obvious favoritism towards any in particular. The Swordsage can be a spiritual monk, a ninja, a studious martial artist, or whatever you want to be with its abilities. It is much more generic than even the two other martial adepts - you decide what the Swordsage is from how you make it, and not the other way around.

Cespenar
2010-11-24, 05:34 PM
For me, it's Diamond Mind. While Warblades deal hot-blooded justice with Iron Heart, Swordsages feel like giving more importance to the mastery of mind. I don't know. Maybe it's because of the word "sage" in it.

Godskook
2010-11-24, 05:40 PM
All three in terms of flavor, but from a balance perspective, either setting sun or shadow hand.

Knaight
2010-11-24, 05:40 PM
For me, it's Diamond Mind. While Warblades deal hot-blooded justice with Iron Heart, Swordsages feel like giving more importance to the mastery of mind. I don't know. Maybe it's because of the word "sage" in it.

Except for Warblades actually having Diamond Mind as well. The signature disciplines are restricted to those only one class has access to.

Ernir
2010-11-24, 05:50 PM
As I explained, for some reasons all the classes seems to have a signature school, and since I will ask the Crusaders have access to XXXX, Warblades access to YYYY and Swordsages to ZZZZ I wanted for them to be more customizable.

Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. I just disagree with you on "all the classes seems to have a signature school". The Warblade and the Crusader do, but the Swordsage isn't as locked in an archetype. As should be evidenced by the fact that you had to make this thread! :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-11-24, 06:20 PM
Makes perfect sense. I just disagree with you on "all the classes seems to have a signature school". The Warblade and the Crusader do, but the Swordsage isn't as locked in an archetype. As should be evidenced by the fact that you had to make this thread! :smalltongue:

Eh. I disagree with any of the classes being locked into one archetype, except maybe Crusader. Even Crusader is "battlefield marshal" vs. "holy warrior". Warblade can be anything from a "frenzied warrior" (Tiger Claw-user with Rabid X Strikes, Jumps and so on) to "swashbuckler" (Diamond Mind-user using Concentration strikes and such) to "frontline marshal" (White Raven-focus) to "weapons master" (iron heart focus) to various dual wielder variations (Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind most notably) and so on. And swordsage has more.

Note that Diamond Mind Swordsage is very different than Diamond Mind Warblade due to the differences in classes; Swordsage can get Wis to Damage and bonus to saves while in Diamond Mind Stances, while Warblade gets full BAB and bonus to Crit Confirmation and so on, so Warblade might be more interested in "one telling blow"-Strikes like the Nightmare Blade series while Swordsage might be more interested in multiple attacks like Avalanche of Blades and Time Stand Still. And in the hands of a Warblade, Rapid Counter is much better due to the AoO bonuses than in the hands of a Swordsage. So while they can have the same maneuvers, their focuses inside the discipline are different (and of course, the same discipline covers multiple archetypes for each). Which is why I think decisions like this are hard to make.

Pechvarry
2010-11-24, 06:26 PM
I honestly feel like it's somehow *wrong* to consider any 1 of the 3 their signature school.

You could consider splitting the Swordsage into 3 identical classes, with access to the different disciplines. This is functionally similar to how Conjurers and Evokers are still Wizards. The Embers, the Stalkers, and the Meditants are all types of Swordsages, and thus any swordsage with shadow hand maneuvers would be unable to get the others.

I suppose that method locks out a lot of disciplines, though. I.e. no Desert Wind warblades and such. In this case, I'd choose Shadow Hand simply because it's typically the strongest.

Tael
2010-11-24, 06:48 PM
Setting Sun needs more love! C'mon guys!
(Yes that is a vote, mostly to boost it from 0 to 1)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-24, 06:51 PM
For what I see, it seems that the swordsage being the ultimate generalist is the point.... so I guess I'll leave them to hoard the Shadow hand, desert wind and setting sun discipline.

Still I will axe the pre-requisite non-sense and the Stone dragon "you must be touching ground".

Psyren
2010-11-24, 07:19 PM
Except for Warblades actually having Diamond Mind as well. The signature disciplines are restricted to those only one class has access to.

In that case put me down for Setting Sun, though I still think Armed and Unarmed Swordsages should be separated for this poll.

Ormur
2010-11-24, 08:08 PM
Personally I always think primarily of the Shadow Hand discipline when making Swordsages but I'm not very experienced at building them.

JaronK
2010-11-24, 09:21 PM
If I had to pick I'd say Shadow Hand, because those are the really interesting abilities. But in general, I think the point of Swordsages is that it's one class that is a ninja, monk, dervish, or assassin, depending on what you want. And so which maneuver schools you use depends on the type of Swordsage. So I tend to pick Shadow Hand, because my characters tend to be more like ninjas and assassins. But I still wouldn't call that the signature discipline of the Swordsage.

JaronK

Elfstone
2010-11-24, 09:28 PM
Desert wind for sure, but mainly swordsages can do anything. But second most iconic is shadow hand.

AstralFire
2010-11-24, 09:30 PM
I would argue that as a 'front-line gish that attacks and uses magic at the same time,' Desert Wind is much more unique to the swordsage in the entirety of 3.5 than Shadow Hand, which deals with a number of ninja and assassin archetypes.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 09:32 PM
Armed - Desert Wind
Unarmed - Setting Sun

Shadow Hand isn't very unique

CockroachTeaParty
2010-11-24, 10:55 PM
I always consider Diamond Mind to be the signature Sword Sage discipline, even though they share it with Warblades.

That said, Setting Sun isn't getting nearly enough love. I find both Desert Wind and Shadow Hand to be underwhelming, only worth cherry-picking for a few choice maneuvers. Setting Sun, however, has some really powerful options that many people don't even realize are there. Also, compared to what Warblades and Crusaders routinely do, Setting Sun offers more interesting counters, and the throw maneuvers allow melee battlefield control unmatched by anything short of a Dungeoncrasher/Knockback build, or an uber-tripper.

So I vote Setting Sun.

mangosta71
2010-11-25, 01:45 AM
There's also a warblade variant that loses medium armor proficiency and gains access to shadow hand. But then, swordsages also have access to the "signature" warblade school.

Bakkan
2010-11-25, 02:33 AM
I vote Shadow Hand, simply because IMHO neither of the other classes have the sneaky-stabby-hidey fluff that the Shadow Hand school does so well. Desert Wind has maneuvers that match the fluff of either Warblade (Flashing Sun) or Crusader (Burning Blade), and Setting Sun just doesn't have the mystical feel that Swordsages are supposed to have. Every time I build a Swordsage I find myself having Shadow Hand as my primary or secondary school.

RaveingRonin
2010-11-25, 03:09 AM
I guess I'm on the fringe here, but I feel as if Setting Sun is the signature discipline. If we are just going on power, or being cool, then yeah, Setting Sun is out of the competition(and by out I mean taken out back and executed). But for "signature", I think that's it, plain and simple. It combines the insanity of Desert Wind (i.e. throwing people like they were ballista bolts) and the shenanigans of Shadow Hand (i.e. "You charge me? Nah, see you actually are charging that guy over there."). Again, I hate it as a player, and I wouldn't touch it with a standard issue 10-ft pole, but for signature discipline?
Setting Sun :smallcool:

Gnaritas
2010-11-25, 04:46 AM
Definitely Shadowhand

If either of the other two were also available for the Crusader or Warblade i would not be amazed.

Partysan
2010-11-25, 09:05 AM
Against Setting Sun, since I always felt Warblades should be allowed to use it, too.

Hanuman
2010-11-25, 09:35 AM
For a swordsage to be unique to other ToB classes?

All 3 of the options ARE unique, those are it's signatures.

What fits their fluff best? Diamond mind IMO.

What do I like best? Stone dragon!

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-25, 11:05 AM
I think the 'signature discipline' for Swordsage is... being able to use more of them in combination with each other.

Look, a Crusader is rather pidgeonholed. He's a 'holy warrior', he does holy stuffs.

Warblade is the same way... he's a beatstick and a tank. That's pretty much what he does.

A Swordsage is much more tactically flexible. If he needs, he can bring down a blade of coherent flame, or he can quietly garrote someone from the other room, or he can move in perfect harmony with his environment and remain unharmed through the chaos... or he can do almost everything that the other two can do as well.

Also, people are forgetting the devastating defensive capabilities of Setting Sun. Lets take a look

A basic 1st level maneuver... Counter-Charge. All those 'ubercharge' builds? Yea, this completely negates that. And that's just one of several maneuvers you can ready if you think you're gonna be running into that.

An almost basic 2nd level maneuver... Baffling Defense. Sense Motive check to negate an attack. You know how people keep saying 'monk sucks because if they are next to the opponent to flurry, the opponent is next to them to full attack which will kill them'? This is the Swordsage's answer to that.

Then let's look at one of my favorite stances... Shifting Defense. Take a 5' step when your opponent misses. Which you can force with Baffling Defense. Full attacks? What full attacks? You miss your first shot, then I move out of reach, negating any full attacks.

That's to say nothing of the battlefield control aspect of tossing your opponents wherever you want them to go and making them hurt each other or even themselves instead of you.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-11-25, 03:45 PM
Stuff.

Seconded. I've playtested high-level Setting Sun Sages, and they're all but untouchable unless you've got reach, and even then, you'd better pray you don't miss, or else they won't be touched.

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-25, 04:35 PM
All three of the Swordsage-only disciplines.

People only say Warblades and Crusaders have "signature" disciplines because they only get one class-only discipline each.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-25, 04:44 PM
Well, you have convinced me... swordsages will get their three disciplines as their signature one.

nekomata2
2010-11-25, 07:49 PM
There's also a warblade variant that loses medium armor proficiency and gains access to shadow hand. But then, swordsages also have access to the "signature" warblade school.

Since I don't see that in the adaptation section, where is that? I'm interested, even if only for the teleports.