top 5 spells that make the difference between casters and melee?

[randomhero00]

Let's assume battlefield control is equal to the amount of unlimited damage one can achieve with a charger build, or the control from a melee enlarged battlefield controller build can achieve.

Now what do we have left? Teleport. Fly. Save or suck/die spells. Scrying. Knowledge/skill ranks (for most, rogue and ranger are exceptions.) Buffs. Anything else?

What if there was a line pretty much all melee got for free through SLAs 3/day? (or Su or Ex depending.)

So for instance at 7 melee get a special feat. They can choose haste, scrying, teleport, or fly 3/day.

at 12 they could choose AMF, Baleful polymorph, etc. 3/day

How do you think that might change the game? ToB characters would likely only get it at 1/day or have a delayed list.

[Godskook]

Let's assume battlefield control is equal to the amount of unlimited damage one can achieve with a charger build, or the control from a melee enlarged battlefield controller build can achieve.

Faulty assumption. BFC is one of the major combat forms an arcanist has that melee doesn't. Tripper builds have a little, but its limited to LoS, inferior senses, and less resources(You can rebuild a wizard into a fighter purely by learning the right spells and metamagics, and still have spell slots to spare).

[randomhero00]

Faulty assumption. BFC is one of the major combat forms an arcanist has that melee doesn't. Tripper builds have a little, but its limited to LoS, inferior senses, and less resources(You can rebuild a wizard into a fighter purely by learning the right spells and metamagics, and still have spell slots to spare).

Really depends on what your DM throws at you. If you have a 20 ft reach I've seen tripper builds do it just as well, without expending any resources.

[randomhero00]

So maybe even starting at level one melee should get some sort of bonus. First off, more skill points and favored skills would be nice. Why does fighter suck so much at skills?

I'd say recreate these SLAs into Ex that are manuever like in origin but are 3/day usually or less. Something that lets you ignore all hardness and DR for a round so you can slice through a tree. Interesting stuff that brings them closer to casters but keeps them unique.

[JaronK]

I'd say recreate these SLAs into Ex that are manuever like in origin but are 3/day usually or less. Something that lets you ignore all hardness and DR for a round so you can slice through a tree. Interesting stuff that brings them closer to casters but keeps them unique.

You realize you're describing ToB, straight down to their first hardness and DR ignoring level 3 maneuver?

JaronK

[randomhero00]

You realize you're describing ToB, straight down to their first hardness and DR ignoring level 3 maneuver?

JaronK

Yes, I remember that. I am not in the best state of mind to think of perfectly balanced epic feats to be honest :P so why don't you help?

Point is, whatever the feat is, it would allow them to slice throw entire structures like buildings and such. Think of the fun and surprise on the villains face when you cut his lair/bunker in half! :)

[JaronK]

I'd rather bring the casters down than rocket the melees up,but that's just me. Note that ToBs also get things like teleport (short range only, Shadow Jaunt) and the ability to hack up buildings (Mountain Hammer line) so it seems to me your problem is mostly solved for you. I really don't like the overpowered caster stuff, so anything moving people up towards that feels wrong.

JaronK

[randomhero00]

I'd rather bring the casters down than rocket the melees up,but that's just me. Note that ToBs also get things like teleport (short range only, Shadow Jaunt) and the ability to hack up buildings (Mountain Hammer line) so it seems to me your problem is mostly solved for you. I really don't like the overpowered caster stuff, so anything moving people up towards that feels wrong.

JaronK

Those where just suggestions. Also, in regards to bridge and building chopping up, they wouldn't have the reach to do it. So maybe some feat that gives them reach for one of their attacks per round (like 100ft). As I said, I'm not in the best mind right now, as I've been arguing with my DM and drinking. I'm just trying to think of cool, melee only things.

In general, its always easier to bring someone up than push someone down. I know you've been around this board a long time, you've seen all the caster nerf threads. They never work out. Not sure why exactly. But the nerfs are always too annoying, or too anti-roleplay in some sense.

Another suggestion, sense melee is all about physical, is simply giving them more actions. Like an epic feat that granted you another move action. Another swift. Etc. Epic melee should be able to charge through an entire enemy line of normal soldiers (lvl 1-4) and hit every single one of them and even knock them down if not kill them.

So perhaps a save or die if under a certain HD. Although those usually aren't too useful.

[Thefurmonger]

I might be missing something but really what your talking about is TOB as JaronK said.

If I'm missing your point, then please help me here. But really this is what TOB was MADE to do.

[randomhero00]

I might be missing something but really what your talking about is TOB as JaronK said.

If I'm missing your point, then please help me here. But really this is what TOB was MADE to do.

well I'm not super familiar with ToB. Especially cause my DM doesn't allow it.

I'm talking ToB, but on an epic scale is what I'm going for.

If you know the anime Bleach, think of their insane sword strikes. How much collatoral damage it can create.

[Eldariel]

I made a list of new epic feats for melee here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92986). Obviously highly powerful but yeah, it's kinda necessary.

The biggest differences, honestly?

Too many to list. Teleportation and the whole Divination-school is a HUGE deal. However, so is Polymorph and the whole Shapechange-line. Contingencies are also an incredibly big deal. Planar Binding-line is obviously nuts all the way down to Gate itself. Simulacrum is huge. Celerity is insane. Wall of X is a big deal, especially Force since it can't be broken. The higher you go, the more ridiculous it gets. Time Stop? Astral Projection? Yeah, that's REAL power.

[JaronK]

Those where just suggestions. Also, in regards to bridge and building chopping up, they wouldn't have the reach to do it. So maybe some feat that gives them reach for one of their attacks per round (like 100ft). As I said, I'm not in the best mind right now, as I've been arguing with my DM and drinking. I'm just trying to think of cool, melee only things.

Is this a bad time to mention that the ToB PrC Bloodstorm Blade does that, even with the reach? Seriously. ToB did this. Familiarize yourself with it. Love it. Tell your DM to allow it. It's a really good book and you're right that this needed to be done... and it was.


Another suggestion, sense melee is all about physical, is simply giving them more actions.

White Raven Tactics and Time Stands Still do this. They're maneuvers. Guess where they're found?


Like an epic feat that granted you another move action. Another swift. Etc.

The Belt of Battle does this... those maneuvers above do more than this (they give whole extra actions. WRT gives it to any player of your choice).


Epic melee should be able to charge through an entire enemy line of normal soldiers (lvl 1-4) and hit every single one of them and even knock them down if not kill them.

...guess what? There's a ToB maneuver you get at level 17 that can do this exactly. It's the Setting Sun final maneuver called Tornado Throw. It knocks them down (actually, flings one person for every 10' you move) and damages them (2d6 damage, +1d6 for every +5 you beat them on the trip check). And yeah, they end up knocked down. It would easily kill level 1-4 soldiers... and stronger. Ballista throw (gained at level 11) actually just flings one person through a bunch of people, but has similar overall effects.


So perhaps a save or die if under a certain HD. Although those usually aren't too useful.

There's those too, but they work on people with more HD.

Go get this book! You need it!

JaronK

[AstralFire]

I strongly recommend that you DM and try and 'push' ToB on your players. It's the best way, I've found, to teach people mechanics. Arenas are too confrontational and can be argued of being tailor-made to support blahblahblah.

[randomhero00]

Then we need even better feats. Ok how about this

Spiritual bond: you've become so adept that your attacks are spiritual. All your attacks are touch attacks.

Multiple accuracy: You've gotten so fast you make all your attacks at full attack bonus.

Immunity X: you've taken so much of X you've gained immunity to an entire school of magic (evocation, illusion, etc)

Chaotic Mind Infraction: You are so subtle and fast it seems there are two of you. For X rounds per level there are two of for all intents and purposes except the copy disapears at the end.

Damage elude: You've taken so much damage you've learned to ignore much of it. Gain DR 40/--

Return to sender: You've become so adept at countering you can send anything back at the attacker, even spells.

Time immunity: You've been through the time stream so much you've become immune to enemies time stop. You are freely able to act within it. You are also able to timestop 1/day

[Ryuk01]

Then we need even better feats. Ok how about this

Spiritual bond: you've become so adept that your attacks are spiritual. All your attacks are touch attacks.

Multiple accuracy: You've gotten so fast you make all your attacks at full attack bonus.

Immunity X: you've taken so much of X you've gained immunity to an entire school of magic (evocation, illusion, etc)

Chaotic Mind Infraction: You are so subtle and fast it seems there are two of you. For X rounds per level there are two of for all intents and purposes except the copy disapears at the end.

Damage elude: You've taken so much damage you've learned to ignore much of it. Gain DR 40/--

Return to sender: You've become so adept at countering you can send anything back at the attacker, even spells.

Time immunity: You've been through the time stream so much you've become immune to enemies time stop. You are freely able to act within it. You are also able to timestop 1/day
Um... are you serious about these feats? Are they epic?

[randomhero00]

Um... are you serious about these feats? Are they epic?

err should they be better or worse? I haven't played epic or ToB much ya know.

[Zonugal]

I always figured the biggest difference between spellcasters and melee were the spells were conjuration based. As JaronK has shown melee (through the use of ToB) can do some pretty impressive stuff but they aren't summoning demons...

[randomhero00]

I always figured the biggest difference between spellcasters and melee were the spells were conjuration based. As JaronK has shown melee (through the use of ToB) can do some pretty impressive stuff but they aren't summoning demons...

that's why I was thinking there should be a line of epic feats that allow you to duplicate a shadow version of yourself. Perhaps, even permanently.

[Zonugal]

that's why I was thinking there should be a line of epic feats that allow you to duplicate a shadow version of yourself. Perhaps, even permanently.

This seems to be far too epic.

There is also a problem that for as much balance as some individuals want in Dungeons and Dragons they also want roles to fall into arch-typical categories (which means for some that warriors stay out of the distinctly supernatural).

[Last Laugh]

Time immunity: You've been through the time stream so much you've become immune to enemies time stop. You are freely able to act within it. You are also able to timestop 1/day

This needs rewording to start off with. Timestop affects no one but the caster (who speeds up, and probably ages a little) Immunity to timestop does absolutely nothing. Timestop also has no range. If you piggy back onto every single timestop that is cast in the planes..... you win the game.

I understand what you want, but this is a very wonky thing to word correctly. I can see no way to make this work without doubling the effectiveness of party wizard lvl 17s timestops while nerfing the enemies timestops.

timestoptimestoptimestoptimestoptimestoptimestopti mestoptimestoptimestop

[randomhero00]

This needs rewording to start off with. Timestop affects no one but the caster (who speeds up, and probably ages a little) Immunity to timestop does absolutely nothing. Timestop also has no range. If you piggy back onto every single timestop that is cast in the planes..... you win the game.

I understand what you want, but this is a very wonky thing to word correctly. I can see no way to make this work without doubling the effectiveness of party wizard lvl 17s timestops while nerfing the enemies timestops.

timestoptimestoptimestoptimestoptimestoptimestopti mestoptimestoptimestop

Just brainstorming. Perhaps a 100ft limit that it must be cast within for you to act within it once its cast.

[AstralFire]

I would make it 'stealing' the time stop - you're something of a temporal anchor and the effect 'swoops' to you instead at your option. Then give it a passive speed-related benefit, like constant haste.

[1stEd.Thief]

I'm looking into the combat feats in Frank Trollman's Tome as a way to buff melee. I'm also planning on a TPK well before the world breaking spells come into play.

http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf

[Endarire]

The epic feat Spell Stowaway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway): time stop lets you benefit from another's time stop if cast within a 300' of you and you have "direct line of effect" to the caster.

[JaronK]

Yeah, but you have to know Time Stop to take it. Still, it's a good start.

JaronK