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ajkkjjk52
2010-11-24, 06:08 PM
Hi Playground,

I'm planning to run a Pathfinder one-shot game soon, and one of my players has asked me if he could play a Warforged. I'm generally opposed to non-core races, but he has a cool flavor for the character and I'm intrigued. I've never been in a game with Warforged before, so I'm curious as to others' experiences. I've got two quesions:

1) How do all the immunities that come with being a (living) construct affect balance? Does the half-healing thing make up for it, or are Warforged OP compared to the core races.

2) The version of Warforged I have access to is from the 3.5 MMIII (I'm not sure what others are available). It has -2 net stats, whereas most PF characters have +2 net. Should I re-stat Warforged to make them more in line with the racial stats in PF, or does this provide a build-in fix for problems from question 1?

I'd love to hear what people think of Warforged, especially if you've played one (or alongside one) in a Pathfinder game.

Thanks!

NEO|Phyte
2010-11-24, 06:15 PM
I like 'em. Not aware of any overly massive benefit to the immunities, unless your oneshot involves the chamber of poisons, diseases, and nauseating smells.

realbombchu
2010-11-24, 06:47 PM
I haven't played as a warforged much. I've drafted a few characters, but that's not the same.

That said, they always struck me as underpowered. I would rewrite their ability bonuses as something like +2 Str and Con, -2 Wis and Cha, so it nets +0. That's just me though.

I don't see the immunities as all that great, but if they bother you, change or remove them.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 07:25 PM
Warforged are strong, but still come in behind Humans. I'm uncertain how they'd rank in Pathfinder but I don't think you have anything to worry about.

gbprime
2010-11-24, 07:33 PM
Re-stat them a bit so they net positive.

The immuinities are nice, but half-healing is a real balancing factor. If they fill any role in the party where their immunities would be front-line, then they're also going to be soaking damage, and half healing can be a real limitation.

Yorrin
2010-11-24, 07:33 PM
I've played a couple of Warforged, and more importantly for you DMed a couple (Eberron Campaign Setting version, as opposed to from a MM). They're fun, they're flavorful, and they're balanced. A human is much easier to uber-optimize with. Unless you hear him talking about a build mixing stuff like Dungeoncrasher and Warforged Juggernaut you'll be fine (even then he shouldn't be much of a problem).

Do you know what build he's considering?

Lev
2010-11-24, 07:34 PM
Love warforged and exiled modrons, never tiring, sleeping, breathing and immune to poisons and diseases opens up a LOT of doors.

Best to play something that doesn't need to recharge spells and such as that gives better synergy with the not sleeping thing.

Marnath
2010-11-24, 08:14 PM
Love warforged and exiled modrons, never tiring, sleeping, breathing and immune to poisons and diseases opens up a LOT of doors.


Lol, yeah, nothing like having your buddy cast cloudkill into melee while you keep the bad guys occupied.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 08:19 PM
Lol, yeah, nothing like having your buddy cast cloudkill into melee while you keep the bad guys occupied.

Or even mundane stuff like crafting all night while keeping watch. (RoE has a Warforged sharpening the party's weapons while they sleep as an example.)

Prime32
2010-11-24, 08:20 PM
I've played a couple of Warforged, and more importantly for you DMed a couple (Eberron Campaign Setting version, as opposed to from a MM).They're the same. Though the MM3 also has stats for the warforged scout (Small warforged, not worth it) and warforged charger (Large and high ECL, decent).

Marnath
2010-11-24, 08:27 PM
Or even mundane stuff like crafting all night while keeping watch. (RoE has a Warforged sharpening the party's weapons while they sleep as an example.)

Technically they can only do the normal 8 hours because they "Get bored."

However, A) that's stupid, I have a very short attention span but I can still do something for 10-14 hours straight if I want and B) you could craft 3 things in 8 hour shifts to get around the boredom and C) their own fluff mentions that a certain blacksmith warforged might bang away at his forge all through the day and into the night except it makes his human neighbors angry when they try to sleep. :smallwink:

Psyren
2010-11-24, 08:28 PM
I wouldn't dismiss the scout out of hand. A skillmonkey with the various Warforged immunities can be fairly potent, especially since they qualify for all the same feats and attachments as regular Warforged do. A WS with an Armbow can score sneak attacks without needing reloading actions for instance.

CodeRed
2010-11-24, 08:32 PM
Warforged are great. They are nicely balanced in 3.5 as the whole not sleeping thing is amazing but half-healing is a nice foil to all the awesome bonuses you get. Ultimately, it sounds like your player is going for flavor, not cheese so I say let him play one.

As to the conversion to Pathfinder, humans get +2 to any stat right? Well that's at least +2 above what they got in 3.5PHB and they still get to keep the bonus feat. To balance Warforged in this respect I would do the following:

Give the player +2 to a any stat for his Warforged that doesn't have a negative.

Fluff wise you could play it as the different stats each warforged would choose as slight modifications to each model. I.E. one with "Int" would be more of a leader model while one with +2 Dex would be a "scout" model.

I think that as a change would be the best balance wise. As well, if any of the other players complain, I just gave you a good justification.

TL;DR Give the Warforged player +2 to any stat of his choice besides Wis or Cha. If humans in Pathfinder are balanced with +2 to the stat of their choice, this would be too.

Marnath
2010-11-24, 08:41 PM
Alternatively, you could drop one of the mental penalties.

Lev
2010-11-24, 09:03 PM
Lol, yeah, nothing like having your buddy cast cloudkill into melee while you keep the bad guys occupied.
Well, you can get a magic bedroll for 3k that recharges your spells in 1 hour instead of 8, and exiled modron in 3.5 has +2 int with no LA and is basically a warforged except more comical.

My modron wizard's favorite tactic is stone wall + cloudkill + dancing chains. It's such a beautiful combination, as a standard action you control almost a dozen chains that can all seperately act as spike chains or grapple opponents, you can make a stone fortwith a cloudkill in front and small murderholes for the chains to go through. Also you can ride one of the chains a climb but with no checks and it can move while holding you, like a giant cobra or something, which means you can basically have a limited fly by only sacrificing one of the chains from a spell which is basically a damaging persisting moving slicing entangling spell. Someone gets in your fort? Cloudkill again.

Minimal spells required, works for minutes at a time.

Application:
Round 1)
A)Roll initiative, you probably don't go first, dodge an arrow or 2, watch their dex heavies go first, possibly charging in to slice you up, you may have to dodge a few arrows or abruptJ if thats your style.
B) Alright, your dex heavies go, perhaps targeting their casters at range.
C) Your turn, STONE WALL. Anyone foolish enough to charge into your frontline is now trapped behind a very sturdy stone wall with battlements and murderholes and maybe even stairs!
D) Your front line acts, goes into gank anyone foolish enough to have charged in with no repercussions as the stone wall will block line of sight for them and will completely stop their mobility. Front line carves up their chargers with flanking and sneak attacks.

Round2)
A) Their range is baffled and 6 seconds is a hell of a short amount of time to come up with a new plan, perhaps their casters try to blast or transmute the wall, perhaps their melee tries to go around it if possible, or their ranged might come up and shoot though the holes? Perhaps they try and go over it by casting fly?
B) Your dex heavies charge up to the wall and start either start firing, further attacking their chargers or readying attacks and making additional cover.
C) Your turn, you run up to a murderhole and cast cloudkill that ends right at the wall, anyone close enough to the wall to use the murderholes is now stuck between the furthest end of a cloudkill, a stone wall, and the 2 closest exits PROBABLY put them in line of fire for your ranged attackers. Feel free to add cloudy conjuration to cloudkill and debuff their saves before they even make them, no save on the debuff.
D) Your frontline further pummels their chargers, which have probably been taken down by now if not next round.

Round 3)
A) Their range, who probably just thought of a plan is probably decimated by the cloudkill, if they didn't charge up to use the murderholes the cloudkill is centered on them farther back which means they either have to retreat or push forwards making their escape a waste of time, if you have a low caster in your group now would be a good time to stack solid fog overtop or near the cloudkill. They might have run to the edge of the cloud and cast something else, but that puts them in line of fire for your ranged attackers and they soon realize they should have put more ranks in concentration.
B) Your ranged does their thing.
C) You throw a handfull of chain links from your handy haversack and they burst to life and magically grow 15' each, you grab onto one and ride it off the ground to the top of it where you can have 90% cover over the battlement even while not using a murderhole or next to the wall. You command the rest of the chains to go clean house, all of the chains warp at light speed to a range up to 100'+10'xcast level and start grappling the foes and possibly moving while grappled and dragging them back into the cloudkill.
D) Their chargers are dead, their setup is scattered and useless, your chains will persist for another 10 mins or so cleaning up the mess while you sit pretty behind a non-magical wall (cannot be dispelled) protected by cloudkill and an army of wtfgrapplechains.

WIN.

-----------------

I'd also suggest looking up poisons, water effects, air effects (including dust of sneezing and coughing, but take a full defense IRL before using it as you might get the DMG literally thrown at you). If you have the money I'd also invest in a rust glove if modron as modrons are typically more metal than warforged and your DM will never throw a rust monster specifically at the metal guy, it also is very handy as it can destroy most industrial metals such as locks and bars and doors and machine gears and attachment bolts... let's just call it a +40 to open lock and disable device with metal parts ;]

grarrrg
2010-11-24, 09:14 PM
2) Warforged have... -2 net stats, whereas most PF characters have +2 net.

Well, more 3.5 "encouraged playable races" have a net 0, Warforged have -2.
In PF the "encouraged playable races" have a net +2. I'd definately give them a boost to net 0, debatable on net +2.

Psyren
2010-11-24, 09:36 PM
Alternatively, you could drop one of the mental penalties.

I consider them flavorful. I'd boost strength and con to go with the wis and cha penalty.

For scouts, I would drop the str penalty and boost them to 30' move.

Marnath
2010-11-24, 09:40 PM
For scouts, I would drop the str penalty and boost them to 30' move.

Yeah, there's gotta be some effect on speed for someone who can go all-out all the time and not get tired. And small robots aren't necessarily weak. :smallsmile:

TroubleBrewing
2010-11-25, 02:24 AM
They're flavorful as hell, and there are some really solid options for them in melee or even as divine casters, but they're hard to manage at low levels. Their less effective healing has been sort of a sticking point for me in more than a few games.

Edge
2010-11-25, 02:39 AM
I ran a short lived Eberron Pathfinder game with my group, and so had to finangle some race stats up for the warforged.

I decided to go with +2 Con, +2 Str or Int, -2 Wis or Cha. Worked well enough, and the party's warforged conjurer never seemed overpowered by virtue of his race.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

LordBlades
2010-11-25, 02:40 AM
Having played (or in party with) several warforged of all classes (from chargers to wizards) I can say they are a solid race, although a bit behind humans or dwarves (the 3.5 versions).

Their immunities make them strong in may circumstances, but half healing hurts their endurance badly, especially since they can't benefit from the most cost effective healing (Lesser vigor from wands or persistent mass lesser vigor, which also have no equivalent for constructs).

AslanCross
2010-11-25, 06:34 AM
Warforged is a great race--a bit on the stronger end in 3.5, but will probably work just fine in PF with adjusted ability score bonuses.

While the laundry list of immunities seems imbalanced at first, most immunities are frankly rather situational. The only really powerful immunities (read: Should NEVER be given to PCs) IMO are the golem immunities to magic and perhaps the Zodar's invulnerability. The warforged is fine, and a fun race to build and play.



Well, you can get a magic bedroll for 3k that recharges your spells in 1 hour instead of 8


Where's that Magic Bedroll from? The version I have in MIC only doubles natural healing while sleeping the full eight hours.


Technically they can only do the normal 8 hours because they "Get bored."


Where does it say they only work eight hours a day because they get bored? I thought the "Day in the Life" warforged character in RoE works the entire day. He's described as always being on standby, keeping watch while carving animal figures at night and lugging crates during the day.

Their boredom is also easily sated, because repetitive tasks such as weapon sharpening are actually interesting to them.

Psyren
2010-11-25, 08:38 AM
Technically they can only do the normal 8 hours because they "Get bored."

That's for magic items. You can do mundane crafting all night if you want. (Things like sharpening weapons, making traps, repairing pots/pans etc.)

Hanuman
2010-11-25, 08:47 AM
Where's that Magic Bedroll from? The version I have in MIC only doubles natural healing while sleeping the full eight hours.
Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (Complete Mage 132, 3,000 gp)
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.msg6625#msg6625

panaikhan
2010-11-25, 09:51 AM
My last 3.5 Warforged was an Artificer/Juggernaut.
It's amusing for a buffster to run around in the equivalent of full plate.
It (for it never really chose a gender) took to 'wearing' noxious smokesticks in it's nostrils, just to be more dragon-y.

That character ended up looking a LOT like mecha-godzilla (warforged bite, armour spikes, sentient tail (weapon familiar)

AvatarZero
2010-11-25, 10:14 AM
I don't like the idea of Warforged having a charisma penalty. That's partly because of all the things that implies (Warforged are bad at intimidation and sorcery?), but it's also because one of the most charismatic characters in the Eberron setting is the Lord of Blades. I think they give him an 18 for CHA when they stat him.

Greenish
2010-11-25, 11:50 AM
they can't benefit from the most cost effective healing (Lesser vigor from wands or persistent mass lesser vigor, which also have no equivalent for constructs).I'm not sure about that. Vigor line is Conjuration [Healing], but the effect is just that it gives Fast Healing, instead of directly healing hitpoint damage.

one of the most charismatic characters in the Eberron setting is the Lord of Blades. I think they give him an 18 for CHA when they stat him.Yeah. Shame no one told him about optimization. :smallcool:

Tiki Snakes
2010-11-25, 11:54 AM
yeah, In my opinion losing a mental penalty will open up more options, whereas giving them a further bonus in another place would rather just further serve to push them into their pidgeon-holes.

So I'd say either remove the Cha penalty, (so the great big robot warmachine is better at being, you know, scary) or let them choose to take -2 to either wis or cha?

Depending on what pathfinder race bonuses actually usually look like, that should be fine if you are aiming for +0 net. If you want +2, I could understand giving them a +2 to str to go with that, as I'm guessing most races still have at least one stat with a negative in pathfinder?

Prime32
2010-11-25, 11:55 AM
I don't like the idea of Warforged having a charisma penalty. That's partly because of all the things that implies (Warforged are bad at intimidation and sorcery?), but it's also because one of the most charismatic characters in the Eberron setting is the Lord of Blades. I think they give him an 18 for CHA when they stat him.It means they have little sense of self. The Lord of Blades is the most charismatic warforged in the world by his job description, and a +Cha race can still have a higher score than him at 1st level.
Yeah. Shame no one told him about optimization. :smallcool:By Word of God, all stats for legendary figures in Eberron are approximations based on hearsay.

tyckspoon
2010-11-25, 12:00 PM
Depending on what pathfinder race bonuses actually usually look like, that should be fine if you are aiming for +0 net. If you want +2, I could understand giving them a +2 to str to go with that, as I'm guessing most races still have at least one stat with a negative in pathfinder?

+2/+2/-2 preassigned on most races, with 'adaptable'/human-derived races instead having a single +2 to place where they want and no negative.

Tiki Snakes
2010-11-25, 01:10 PM
I'd vote +2 Str, Con, -2 Wis then, personally.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-25, 01:15 PM
1. Warforged
2. Artificer
3. ???
4. Profit?!

Prime32
2010-11-25, 04:13 PM
1. Warforged
2. Artificer
3. ???
4. Profit?!1. Warforged
2. Psion (shaper)
3. Repair damage, psionic
4. Psicrystal
5. Share pain
6. ???
7. Monetary gain