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unimaginable
2010-11-25, 01:16 PM
In a 3.5 campaign, currently located in the Beastlands. A new player whose last experience was 2e says she's always been fond of Rangers. As I understand, the Ranger class is a tad weak... what sorts of things should I be suggesting to her? Since she's unfamiliar with the 3.5 rules, I'm assuming that I'll probably have to do most of the building.

Scout is obvious. What else?

Eldariel
2010-11-25, 01:20 PM
In a 3.5 campaign, currently located in the Beastlands. A new player whose last experience was 2e says she's always been fond of Rangers. As I understand, the Ranger class is a tad weak... what sorts of things should I be suggesting to her? Since she's unfamiliar with the 3.5 rules, I'm assuming that I'll probably have to do most of the building.

Scout is obvious. What else?

Ranger isn't terrible. Options:
- Mystic Ranger [DRXXX]
- Swift Hunter [CAdv+CSco]
- Various PrCs

Mystic Ranger is...well, it's obviously a more casting Ranger. Very strong. Swift Hunter is a skirmisher Ranger. And various PrCs (Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild] comes to mind) offer pure martial prowess, among others. While others, like Stalker of Kharesh [Book of Exalted Deeds], work great with Swift Hunter. So..yeah, find out what kind of a Ranger she wants and work from there.

HunterOfJello
2010-11-25, 01:26 PM
Wildshape Ranger
Mystic Ranger

~

As far as homebrew/DM allowances go, I would suggest allowing full animal companion progression as a druid, regardless of ACF choice.

Also, if she doesn't like the Wildshape or Mystic Ranger you could offer access to both Archery and Dual Wield Combat Styles at each applicable level. So she be able to get Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot at level 2. (This really isn't unbalanced at all since TWF is pretty weak for non-rogues.)

unimaginable
2010-11-25, 01:38 PM
Looks like she's into the archery and the tracking/survivalist/sneaking end of things, and likes the idea of having abilities with a spiritual dimension which would no doubt overlap with magic (her example was sensing animals before they could approach). So, my thinking is more on the mundane side of things...

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-25, 01:56 PM
I would suggest, then, a Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0). Also, I would see if your DM is open to allowing the Pathfinder feat Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) - it's kinda like Power Attack but for archers. She'll want to prepare the spells Sniper's Shot and Hunter's Eye (both from the Spell Compendium, if I remember correctly) as this will give her even more bonus damage (Hunter's Eye gives sneak attack) and allow her to apply her precision damage at any range.

Oh, and she'll want some way of gaining Turn Undead or similar, to fuel Travel Devotion (from Complete Champion) so that she can move (to activate Skirmish) and full attack in the same round. Alternatives to that would be a Monk dip and the Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) so she can make a 10' step (instead of a 5' step) or sufficient investment in tumble (it's a dc 40 check to take a 10' step, if I remember correctly).

gbprime
2010-11-25, 01:57 PM
Wildshape Ranger and then Master of Many Forms/Warshaper is a hoot. :smallamused:

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 01:59 PM
Rangers get a big boost just from having Spell Compendium.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-25, 02:40 PM
Yeah, all their best spells are there, it seems. So if your group hasn't got it, your Ranger player should try and pick it up.

ericgrau
2010-11-25, 02:55 PM
Even fighter with TWF or rapid shot would be better. Actually the ranger isn't that bad, he just requires more wilderness encounters to shine. Look at the ranger skills and spells for ideas, or the DMG wilderness encounters. Otherwise ya he's a fighter but with less feats.

For swift hunter you need to pull some kind of trick to move and get full attacks or he'll actually do even less damage than a ranger. The advantage otherwise (when played as intended IMO) is more skills, which only magnifies the above.

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 03:02 PM
TWF Rangers can be done pretty well as Swordsages, as well, with some minor changes.

I'd be surprised if, without heavy optimization, Fighter outpaces a Spell Compendium ranger.

ericgrau
2010-11-25, 03:13 PM
What exactly do rangers get from the spell compendium? With a very low number of spells per day and either short spell durations or spells that take a non-swift action, I didn't see much. And it really wouldn't take much for a fighter to take on a splatbook feat or two for way more damage; not any more involved than a spell or two. I mean I'd take ranged weapon mastery, for example, over a spell or multiple spells that grant a brief amount of extra damage. Or many other splatbook feats are useful individually and he gets a lot of them. Past level 12 magic items remove whatever disadvantage was left. Heck at higher levels your weapon damage is so high I'd take greater weapon focus over a lot of those spells simply for more hits. Did I miss some kind of hidden polymorph or something?

I know fighters get a lot of flak, but whatever they get rangers deserve twice over by any open combat standard I'd think... except non open combat skills and other wilderness stuff as said, but those require a great deal of player and DM skill. I don't usually see them used (unfortunately). The only real disadvantage fighters have for open combat I think is being the flag bearer for melee and thus the main target of the flak.

Greenish
2010-11-25, 03:50 PM
I suggest Knowledge Devotion (C.Champ), perhaps coupled with Education (ECS), for any archer.

Well, for pretty much anyone with skillpoints to spend.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-11-25, 09:09 PM
Wildshape Ranger and then Master of Many Forms/Warshaper is a hoot. :smallamused:

I see what you did there.

As has already been mentioned, Spell Compendium gives a lot of love to Rangers in the form of archery focused spells. Melee rangers also have a few treats, there, too, but less so than the bowers.

A note on Hunter's Eye, though. Despite being a Ranger spell, it is terrible for rangers as it only gives 1d6 every three caster levels, which, for a straight ranger is 1d6 per 6 class levels.:smallyuk:

SurlySeraph
2010-11-25, 09:21 PM
What exactly do rangers get from the spell compendium? With a very low number of spells per day and either short spell durations or spells that take a non-swift action, I didn't see much.

Wands are cheap. And with a wand of Hunter's Eye at a decent CL (preferably in a Wand Chamber so you can TWF while casting), you'll be doing a lot more damage. Alternately/ in addition, a wand of Lion's Charge to charge with.
Or Arrow Storm for tons of attacks, Hunter's Mercy (+scythe with Aptitude Weapon and various burst enhancements) for an automatic critical hit, and plenty of utility spells.


And it really wouldn't take much for a fighter to take on a splatbook feat or two for way more damage; not any more involved than a spell or two. I mean I'd take ranged weapon mastery, for example, over a spell or multiple spells that grant a brief amount of extra damage.

+2 to-hit and +2 damage per attack? No, thanks. Fighters don't get great ranged options, at least not compared to their melee options; compare Leap Attack, which doubles your damage on a charge for significantly less investment than Ranged Weapon Mastery takes.


Did I miss some kind of hidden polymorph or something?

Well, there is that one Spell Compendium ranger spell that lets you turn into a Bulette.


The only real disadvantage fighters have for open combat I think is being the flag bearer for melee and thus the main target of the flak.

Plus they'll usually want heavy armor, and limited Dex bonus isn't great for archery (though this is easy to avoid), plus they don't get the nice spells mentioned above.
Also, Champions of Ruin has some excellent archery spells for Rangers.

Coidzor
2010-11-25, 09:24 PM
Looks like she's into the archery and the tracking/survivalist/sneaking end of things, and likes the idea of having abilities with a spiritual dimension which would no doubt overlap with magic (her example was sensing animals before they could approach). So, my thinking is more on the mundane side of things...

Mystic Ranger sounds very much in line with that. Between wild empathy and good spells from level 2 on that's pretty good out of the box (level 1 just has orisons/cantrips). Mystic Ranger can be combined with wildshaping ranger too, so that one has flight, natural weapons combat, and archery for ranged.

There's also the moon-warded ranger astrological sign substitution levels from some dragon magazine that would allow one to trade out one of the combat styles for wisdom to AC in either light armor or no armor, can't remember which offhand, investigating further should turn up info though.

The feat Academic Priest from the Dragonlance 3.5 campaign setting allows the spellcasting of a ranger to be keyed to Int, thus synergizing with and boosting the skillmonkey role.

Combined with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor (IIRC), which gives wizard casting with the ranger spell slots (and requires spellcraft ranks enough in order to either prepare spells out of the party wizard's book or to maintain her own spell book) this can give one quite the nice little skillful mini-gish. Especially if human for the extra skillpoints and feat to start it up.

Engine
2010-11-26, 01:10 AM
I support Mystic Ranger with Pathfinder rules for Ranger caster level: your caster level is equal your Ranger level minus three.

Hanuman
2010-11-26, 01:14 AM
Druid or ToB with Ranger flavor.

You can play a druid however you want, if you want to play it like a ranger its probably going to still be more powerful, diverse and fun.

Eldariel
2010-11-26, 01:19 AM
What exactly do rangers get from the spell compendium? With a very low number of spells per day and either short spell durations or spells that take a non-swift action, I didn't see much.

Big ones include:
- Hunter's Mercy
- Find the Gap
- Arrow Storm
- Guided Shot
- Arrow Mind
- Foebane

In short, options. You can suddenly blend spells with combat, which enhances the class feature greatly. Yes, you don't get too many spells daily but if you play e.g. 4 encounters, you'll probably have at least one spell per encounter from level 8 forward (especially if he has 14 Wis for bonus slots on both levels) which really enhances the nova-ability and damage capacity. Pearl of Power Is and Wands are of course affordable too.

Hunter's Mercy is something you need to Quicken, but many are swift actions or last the whole encounter. You get various situational abilities when you need them; all good.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-26, 01:24 AM
Would a feat similar to Battle blessing but that affect ranger spells instead, be overpowered ? (with the obvious caveat that it doesn't auto-quicken spells of a druid or cleric taking a dip into prestige ranger).

Coidzor
2010-11-26, 02:18 AM
I support Mystic Ranger with Pathfinder rules for Ranger caster level: your caster level is equal your Ranger level minus three.

:smallconfused: Why? It's not that strong to warrant having negative caster level.

Coidzor
2010-11-26, 02:24 AM
Would a feat similar to Battle blessing but that affect ranger spells instead, be overpowered ? (with the obvious caveat that it doesn't auto-quicken spells of a druid or cleric taking a dip into prestige ranger).

I don't think so, as I believe Sword of the Arcane Order calls out the wizard spells as wizard spells using ranger spell slots so it wouldn't affect them. Up to 5th level wizard spells auto-quickened for free would definitely be pushing things, considering it would be achievable by level 10. I don't think it would be that OP for the spells that prestige ranger would add to their list. For all of the spells that the lists would share, though, yeah...

ericgrau
2010-11-26, 04:59 AM
Big ones include:
- Hunter's Mercy
- Find the Gap
- Arrow Storm
- Guided Shot
- Arrow Mind
- Foebane

In short, options. You can suddenly blend spells with combat, which enhances the class feature greatly. Yes, you don't get too many spells daily but if you play e.g. 4 encounters, you'll probably have at least one spell per encounter from level 8 forward (especially if he has 14 Wis for bonus slots on both levels) which really enhances the nova-ability and damage capacity. Pearl of Power Is and Wands are of course affordable too.

Hunter's Mercy is something you need to Quicken, but many are swift actions or last the whole encounter. You get various situational abilities when you need them; all good.
Then I didn't miss anything. Like I said half of them are mediocre at best or the ones that are good are so brief that you'd have trouble filling a single encounter with them yet alone 4.

Hunter's Mercy: only 1 crit, needs quicken bad
Find the Gap: So-so, your first attack is likely to hit anyway and that standard action hurts
Arrow Storm: Decent but brief
Guided Shot: Also brief, there's a core feat for that
Arrow Mind: so-so, and there's a feat for that IIRC
Foe bane: Eats an action and overrides the weapon's normal properties at character level 14+, no thanks. If all the monsters in the encounter are the same type and it's exactly level 14 you might break even or come out slightly ahead after the lost action.

Something no more cheesy than ranged weapon mastery trumps them all for more hits and damage. That and maybe 1 or 2 others was OP in my group, as simple as it seems... they own 50 books I thought that was about the right level of power. I didn't mean to do it.

Grim Reader
2010-11-26, 05:13 AM
One level of Beastmaster will reset the Animal Companion from Druid -3, to Druid +3. And it is cumulative with further levels in Ranger.

Gnaritas
2010-11-26, 06:04 AM
Looks like she's into the archery and the tracking/survivalist/sneaking end of things, and likes the idea of having abilities with a spiritual dimension which would no doubt overlap with magic (her example was sensing animals before they could approach). So, my thinking is more on the mundane side of things...

As said before, Mystic Ranger fits this fairly well and does not involve a combination of many classes making it less complicated, which is a good thing for a new player.

What level are you going to start at?

molten_dragon
2010-11-26, 06:44 AM
If you're comfortable introducing homebrew to your games, you can try out the Hunter class linked in my signature. If you do decide to use it, I'd love to hear about how it worked for you.

Ruinix
2010-11-26, 12:05 PM
elf race.

ranger X / elf paladin 5 (ranged smite evil)

add the feat Devoted Tracker from C.Adv. is a strong way to start.

imperialspectre
2010-11-26, 12:09 PM
Sublime Way Ranger, if you have/allow Tome of Battle, is quite awesome. The link for the generally-recognized variant is here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger).

Coidzor
2010-11-26, 12:17 PM
One level of Beastmaster will reset the Animal Companion from Druid -3, to Druid +3. And it is cumulative with further levels in Ranger.

If it were level-3 that'd be better. it's Ranger/2 = Effective Druid level for 3.5 rangers.

Master_Rahl22
2010-11-26, 01:24 PM
For a naturey skill monkey type, you could look at Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They're best known for being able to get tons of natural weapons, but they can also be a very competent skill monkey. Quite a few of the soulmelds grant bonuses to skills when shaped, and said bonuses can be pumped by investing essentia into them.

cooperflood
2010-11-26, 03:27 PM
This is the homebrew your looking for. It's an Archer specific baseclass with primarily martial abilities, but a few nice mystic bonuses that give it some extra punch.

Sagittarius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117933&) by Kellus

Warclam
2010-11-26, 08:42 PM
Sublime Way Ranger, if you have/allow Tome of Battle, is quite awesome. The link for the generally-recognized variant is here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger).

+1 to this. Or, if you'd rather avoid homebrew disciplines, you could try my own version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174397).

Another option: though it's less powerful than wild shape and not te-e-echnically legal, shapeshift [PHBII] (trading combat style for wild shape, then wild shape and animal companion for shapeshift) can be a lot of fun for a ranger.