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true_shinken
2010-11-25, 09:28 PM
Hey guys.
I'm looking for ways to boost Initiative on noncasters. For now I have:

Marshall's Motivate Dexterity
Factotum's Brains Over Brawn
Thug feat - +2 Initiative, +2 Spot
Improved Initiative - +4
Eager/Warning/Initiative weapon - total +9
Quick Recconeiter feat - +2
Guerrila Scout feat - +2


That's from memory. Anything else?

Andion Isurand
2010-11-25, 09:32 PM
I thought that the guerrilla scout feat only gave a +1 bonus to initiative.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-11-25, 09:34 PM
Sandals of the Vagabond give you a nice +2 or +4 to initiative in addition to stopping either the fatigued or exhausted condition for only a few thousand GP and can be found in Complete Champion.

Ring of Anticipation from Drow of the Underdark lets you roll twice for initiative, choosing the better of the two rolls along with giving bonuses to spot and listen.

WinWin
2010-11-25, 09:35 PM
The Dread Commando prc grants a team initiative bonus.

Hanuman
2010-11-25, 09:36 PM
Swordsage?

HunterOfJello
2010-11-25, 09:38 PM
X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread


Also, I know there's one trait that improves Initiative by +2, I think it decreases AC by 1 or something, i forget.

Swooper
2010-11-25, 09:38 PM
Factotum 3 gives you int to all str/dex/con based ability checks. Initiative is specifically a dex based ability check.

You're welcome. :smallcool:

Siosilvar
2010-11-25, 09:49 PM
Factotum 3 gives you int to all str/dex/con based ability checks. Initiative is specifically a dex based ability check.

You're welcome. :smallcool:


Factotum's Brains Over Brawn[/LIST]

Hmm...


Anyway, Danger Sense in CAdv lets you re-roll initiative. Admittedly, it is only once per day. So does Lucky Start from Complete Scoundrel.

Emmerask
2010-11-25, 10:02 PM
Moment of alacrity, +20 ini

WinceRind
2010-11-25, 10:05 PM
Swordsage, but it's a fairly small bonus unless you go Swordsage for many levels.

And then there's also a feat nobody mentioned yet... Quick Reconnoiter or something from either PHB2 or Complete Adventurer. It gives you bonuses to listen and spot ( I think +2), lets you use them as a free action actively instead of having to spend a standard action, and offers you +2 to initiative.

I might be wrong about the +2 bonus to Spot/Listen...

But, yeah, it's +2 initiative, and the pre-reqs are 5 ranks in Listen and Spot as far as I remember.

Thurbane
2010-11-25, 10:21 PM
Armor of the Watching Master (set) +2 untyped
Belt of Battle +2 competence
Bracers of the Blinding Strike +2 competence
Eager weapon enhancement +2 untyped
Roaring armor enhancement +4 competence
Rod of Alertness +1 insight
Soulbound weapon enhancement +2 insight
Warning weapon enhancement +5 insight

grarrrg
2010-11-25, 10:28 PM
And then there's also a feat nobody mentioned yet... Quick Reconnoiter...


Factotum 3 gives you int to all str/dex/con based ability checks. Initiative is specifically a dex based ability check.

Hey guys, thanks for the help and all, but I think the OP got these already...

Son(s) I am dissapoint.


Oh, and, um... Items that boost your Dexterity.

Swooper
2010-11-25, 10:48 PM
Hmm...
Damn, teaches me to properly read the OP, eh? :smallredface:

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 11:21 PM
Hit And Run Tactics is a Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark. You get +2 to Initiative and your Dex to damage against flat-footed foes. You give up your heavy armor and shield proficiency for it, but can't gain them back via multiclassing - it specifies you have to take the respective feats for it.

I never use heavy armor anyway, so this is something I've grown accustomed to attaching to every Fighter (dip) build I make. :smallconfused:

There's also the Markings of the Hunter feat in Races of Stone that lets you roll twice for initiative and choose the better roll. It's Goliath-only and requires Auspicious Marking. Probably doesn't stack with Ring of Anticipation due to wording, either.

You could also take Leadership, or even chain Leaderships, and have your cohorts use White Raven Tactics... I don't think this should even be listed for completeness's sake, to be honest.

Thurbane
2010-11-25, 11:31 PM
Also, I know there's one trait that improves Initiative by +2, I think it decreases AC by 1 or something, i forget.
Aggressive: +2 to Initiative (untyped), -1 to AC (also untyped).

Also, if you don't count them as casters, Binders get -

Pact Augmentation: up to +10 insight to Initative
Balam (vestige): up to +5 insight to Initiative
Anima Mage - Vestigial Awareness: +2 Initiative

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 11:40 PM
Iaijutsu Master (OA) adds Charisma to Initiative at 2nd level. They also get a guaranteed surprise round at 10th level if they are within melee range of an enemy.

Hanuman
2010-11-26, 12:35 AM
Iaijutsu Master (OA) adds Charisma to Initiative at 2nd level. They also get a guaranteed surprise round at 10th level if they are within melee range of an enemy.
..........................................what.

How does charisma improve initiative? Quick wit?

Godskook
2010-11-26, 12:51 AM
..........................................what.

How does charisma improve initiative? Quick wit?

My view of the mental scores has always been that each compares to the physical ones as such:

Int->Str
Wis->Con
Cha->Dex

Given that, it makes perfect sense. Cha is the score of social flexibility, or social dexterity, if you will. That quick thinking leads to quick action should follow rather logically.

Hanuman
2010-11-26, 12:58 AM
My view of the mental scores has always been that each compares to the physical ones as such:

Int->Str
Wis->Con
Cha->Dex

Given that, it makes perfect sense. Cha is the score of social flexibility, or social dexterity, if you will. That quick thinking leads to quick action should follow rather logically.

Wait what? No?

Dex uses reflexes which are mental already!

Intelligence assumes conscious thought and neocortex processing which is actually reflexes, dex is just connecting it to the body in the right way.

Wis is the refinement of one's mental processes beyond simple logic, and rules over subconscious processes.

Cha COULD be related to Dex in terms of fluidity and as Dex and Int blur lines so do Dex and Cha, but how do you explain how someone's tact improves their initiative?

OH

This mechanic is based off of the assumption that Cha relates to Wis, and that wis relates to sense motive and spot and therefore you can use your sense of social flow to understand when someone is about to turn hostile.

That's a pretty crude mechanic, doesn't really account for "you open a box and a spider jumps at your face" kind of thing.

Roga
2010-11-26, 02:24 AM
I see it as, you're so stony and imposing that you'd give the spider, or any one else, a penalty to initiative. It's simply easier to give yourself a bonus then to make everyone calculate a penalty.

Yondalla's Sense out of Races of Wild gives you your Wisdom Mod to Initiative with your dex. Halfling only.

There's also a crap ton of feats in Oriental Adventures and Rokugon that add a bonus here and there, and a Scorpion one that adds Intelligence to Initiative I believe.

gorfnab
2010-11-26, 02:54 AM
Lunatic Insight feat - Heroes of Horror - +2 morale bonus on initiative

Killer Angel
2010-11-26, 03:23 AM
That's from memory. Anything else?

Blooded. It's a regional feat from Player's guide to Faerun: +2 to initiative and spot and you cannot be shaken (if I remember correctly)

Endarire
2010-11-26, 03:47 AM
Optimized Initiative Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)

Hanuman
2010-11-26, 04:27 AM
I see it as, you're so stony and imposing that you'd give the spider, or any one else, a penalty to initiative. It's simply easier to give yourself a bonus then to make everyone calculate a penalty.

Yondalla's Sense out of Races of Wild gives you your Wisdom Mod to Initiative with your dex. Halfling only.

There's also a crap ton of feats in Oriental Adventures and Rokugon that add a bonus here and there, and a Scorpion one that adds Intelligence to Initiative I believe.
That's pretty damn imposing if you can get a golem to do that.

Thurbane
2010-11-26, 04:37 AM
Optimized Initiative Compilation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0)
Nice guide...but it seems to missing a fair chunk of things already brought up in this thread?

Eloel
2010-11-26, 04:40 AM
My view of the mental scores has always been that each compares to the physical ones as such:

Int->Str
Wis->Con
Cha->Dex

Given that, it makes perfect sense. Cha is the score of social flexibility, or social dexterity, if you will. That quick thinking leads to quick action should follow rather logically.
This is the first time I've seen that pair-up.
To me, Cha is Str's mental equivalent. It's your ability to force people to do things, mentally.
Int has always been Dex for me too, Int is pretty much the ability to think quickly, imo. A 3 Int guy can think of most things a 18 Int guy can. He just takes WAY too long to be practical.

true_shinken
2010-11-26, 07:59 AM
This is the first time I've seen that pair-up.
To me, Cha is Str's mental equivalent. It's your ability to force people to do things, mentally.
Int has always been Dex for me too, Int is pretty much the ability to think quickly, imo. A 3 Int guy can think of most things a 18 Int guy can. He just takes WAY too long to be practical.

For the Iaijutsu Master, Charisma is a measure of ki. He channels ki to draw his sword faster and hit harder - he channels ki to act faster as well.

Runestar
2010-11-26, 08:10 AM
Then along comes a dire tortoise and puts your high initiative to shame...:smallamused:

Eloel
2010-11-26, 08:26 AM
For the Iaijutsu Master, Charisma is a measure of ki. He channels ki to draw his sword faster and hit harder - he channels ki to act faster as well.

Wait, what does that have to do with what you quoted?

FMArthur
2010-11-26, 08:45 AM
I don't see why a Marshal can order everyone in 60ft to react faster but an Iaijutsu Master can't just tell himself to.

edit:
I was just reading up on the awful Draconic Auras on page 87 of Dragon Magic, and the Senses Draconic Aura improves your and your allies' Initiative by your aura bonus, as well as Spot and Listen. You can get this as a +1 aura by taking the Draconic Aura feat (same book, only requires 3rd level), you can replace a Marshal's Major Aura with this as you like (extending its range from 30ft to 60ft), and a Dragon Shaman from PHII has access to this particular aura by default. It's super weak, but I guess a Iaijutsu Focus-focused Marshal would be interested in it because he's likely to want to take 3 levels of Marshal anyway.

true_shinken
2010-11-26, 09:34 AM
I don't see why a Marshal can order everyone in 60ft to react faster but an Iaijutsu Master can't just tell himself to.

edit:
I was just reading up on the awful Draconic Auras on page 87 of Dragon Magic, and the Senses Draconic Aura improves your and your allies' Initiative by your aura bonus, as well as Spot and Listen. You can get this as a +1 aura by taking the Draconic Aura feat (same book, only requires 3rd level), you can replace a Marshal's Major Aura with this as you like (extending its range from 30ft to 60ft), and a Dragon Shaman from PHII has access to this particular aura by default. It's super weak, but I guess a Iaijutsu Focus-focused Marshal would be interested in it because he's likely to want to take 3 levels of Marshal anyway.

Hmm, good, this is really good. Thanks.

Thurbane
2010-11-26, 09:37 AM
I can't believe I forgot the Draconic Aura...in the game previous to the one I'm running, I played a Dragon Shaman for almost 18 months! Senses was my default "always on" aura...

true_shinken
2010-11-26, 09:46 AM
I can't believe I forgot the Draconic Aura...in the game previous to the one I'm running, I played a Dragon Shaman for almost 18 months! Senses was my default "always on" aura...

Hm, how did it work out? Playing a DS, I mean.

Thurbane
2010-11-26, 05:04 PM
Hm, how did it work out? Playing a DS, I mean.
I really enjoyed it. I took Heavy Armor Prof so I could tank a bit...it was in a relatively low op group, and we ran through Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. I had very high Charisma, and an Amulet of Retributive Healing, so I could heal a decent amount of damage in a standard action...as well as removing conditions. I also took some meta-breath feats.

I wouldn't say it was super powerful, but I honestly enjoyed it.

true_shinken
2010-11-26, 08:42 PM
I really enjoyed it. I took Heavy Armor Prof so I could tank a bit...it was in a relatively low op group, and we ran through Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. I had very high Charisma, and an Amulet of Retributive Healing, so I could heal a decent amount of damage in a standard action...as well as removing conditions. I also took some meta-breath feats.

I wouldn't say it was super powerful, but I honestly enjoyed it.

Oh, those are the best games, really. You can do any concept you want and you don't need to worry about contributing as much; just choose stuff that you like and you'll do just fine. Looks like it was a very good game.:smallbiggrin:

Signmaker
2010-11-26, 11:42 PM
Wielding a +1 Warning Shuriken? Although, that IS pretty iffy on the rulings-side.

You could also just get methods to duplicate initiative-boosting spellcasting, if you need a good boost for special occasions. Crafted Contingent Nerveskitter, as a simple choice.

Also, Primal Speed(?) is 24 hours, and therefore a viable daybuff if received from a party member.

hydraa
2010-11-27, 12:39 AM
the way i think warning is better is +1 warning armor spikes

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 06:29 AM
Wielding a +1 Warning Shuriken? Although, that IS pretty iffy on the rulings-side.

You could also just get methods to duplicate initiative-boosting spellcasting, if you need a good boost for special occasions. Crafted Contingent Nerveskitter, as a simple choice.

Also, Primal Speed(?) is 24 hours, and therefore a viable daybuff if received from a party member.

Primal Instinct - excellent on an eternal wand, 4500gp for +5 initiative for two people.
Nerveskitter - excellent on a wand(chamber), 750gp for +5 initiative

Sadly, both require you to be a caster.
Warning weapons are already listed in the OP.

JaronK
2010-11-27, 06:37 AM
Charisma is mental strength, Int is mental Dexterity. I never understood Charisma to initiative...

Anyway, Rokugan Ninja gives Int to initiative, IIRC at level 8. One of two good abilities the class gives (the other is Con X5 to movement speed, and even that's not amazing).

JaronK

Eloel
2010-11-27, 07:36 AM
I really enjoyed it. I took Heavy Armor Prof so I could tank a bit...it was in a relatively low op group, and we ran through Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. I had very high Charisma, and an Amulet of Retributive Healing, so I could heal a decent amount of damage in a standard action...as well as removing conditions. I also took some meta-breath feats.

I wouldn't say it was super powerful, but I honestly enjoyed it.

I'd not bother with Heavy Armor Prof myself - you're mostly breathing on the enemy, no attack rolls, so no penalties for not being proficient, just wear the armor :smallsmile:

Being Dragonborn gives you another 1/1d4 breathweapon, so you always have something to do.

Though in my experience, classes like Dragon Shaman or Marshall (relying on auras) are dull, you tend to just sit there providing bonuses for everyone (and mildly annoying enemies by breathing upon them.)

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 07:49 AM
Charisma is mental strength, Int is mental Dexterity. I never understood Charisma to initiative...

Anyway, Rokugan Ninja gives Int to initiative, IIRC at level 8. One of two good abilities the class gives (the other is Con X5 to movement speed, and even that's not amazing).

JaronK

Iaijutsu Master's Charisma to Initiative is a ki thing.
Swiftblade's is a 'channel spellcasting' thing.
Dunno about others.

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-27, 08:17 AM
If you don't have a particular race in mind you could be an Illumian with the Uur sigil for another +2 to Dex-based checks. You can find Illumian in Races of Destiny,

nedz
2010-11-27, 08:23 AM
Scout Battle Fortitude
+1 at 2nd
+2 ar 11th
+3 at 20th

bartman
2010-11-27, 10:16 AM
Could you not puut nerveskitter into a continuous magic item, or is that not allowed by RAW (immediate action spells and the like) Seems to me that would be a permanent +5 to init, albeit 16000g for a slotless item.

dextercorvia
2010-11-27, 10:31 AM
Could you not puut nerveskitter into a continuous magic item, or is that not allowed by RAW (immediate action spells and the like) Seems to me that would be a permanent +5 to init, albeit 16000g for a slotless item.

Custom magic creation is usually frowned upon. The guidelines are just that, and the first rule of pricing is to compare it to a similar item.

bartman
2010-11-27, 10:35 AM
Custom magic creation is usually frown upon. The guidelines are just that, and the first rule of pricing is to compare it to a similar item.

Ahh

I know in my games we tend to use it alot, not sure how others feel about them though, guess this answers that

Thanks