Best mass destruction 6th level spell

[true_shinken]

Basically it. What is the best spell of up to 6th level to be used as a substitute for a nuke? I'm not very skilled on metamagic shenaningans, so I really don't know...

My BBEG will be using this on his tarrasque simulacrums - Craft Contingent Spell + codeword as a trigger most likely.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Locate City + Snowcasting + Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution: Electricity + Born of the Three Thunders + Explosive spell takes only a 4th level spell slot to accomplish.

[Claudius Maximus]

Control Winds is a staple.

Blizzard will probably completely wipe out a settlement it's cast over - it makes one foot of snow fall per round for 1 round/lvl.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Locate City + Snowcasting + Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution: Electricity + Born of the Three Thunders + Explosive spell takes only a 4th level spell slot to accomplish.

While this is true, it's also very controversial. Unfortunately it is, as far as I know, the only good way to generate nuclear weapon level destruction, at least pre-epic. If, by nuke, you meant just large-area destructive spells; then cone of cold, pimped with cheap metamagics, is one of my favorites.

[FelixG]

Control Winds is a staple.

Blizzard will probably completely wipe out a settlement it's cast over - it makes one foot of snow fall per round for 1 round/lvl.

That is a great deal of snow for 6 seconds 0.o

I am guessing Blizzard is from the frostbite book (or whatever the cold book is called, i am away from my books at the moment)

[arguskos]

While this is true, it's also very controversial. Unfortunately it is, as far as I know, the only good way to generate nuclear weapon level destruction, at least pre-epic. If, by nuke, you meant just large-area destructive spells; then cone of cold, pimped with cheap metamagics, is one of my favorites.
Haha not even close. The best is actually Eschew Materials+Major Creation to make the maximum amount of Anti-Osmium that it's physically possible to create, and watch the ensuing detonation. :smallcool: That's cheese on an bizarre and unusable level though.

OP: I really like Blizzard personally, for the reason that CM mentioned. I also like Firebrand a great deal as well.

[Schylerwalker]

Chain Lightning isn't terrible for what you're looking for, especially Metamagiced up with Arcane Thesis shenanigans for Born of Three Thunders.

[Thiyr]

Locate City + Snowcasting + Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution: Electricity + Born of the Three Thunders + Explosive spell takes only a 4th level spell slot to accomplish.

I much prefer the "dirty-bomb" version, in which you drop explosive (which is somewhat shaky, as the "nearest edge" can be considered about an inch straight up, what with it not being a spherical area and all) and replace it with fell drain. If you're doing this for a BBEG, I have this funny idea in my mind of a spellclock of that dropped in the middle of a major metropolis, ticking that out every few hours or so (enough time for the PCs to find it if they know where to look, or escape if they're cutting it close, but frequent enough that staying in the city too long is obviously a bad thing.) The longer it goes, the more wights are made, meaning each hour or so the place becomes more and more uninhabitable (hence dirty bomb).

That said, it's still kinda mean, and loses some of the fun if it's a one-shot deal tied to a contingency, so I'll second blizzard here, which also sounds like fun.

[Golden-Esque]

I'm a little surprised that we're in a thread taking about spells that simulate nukes and no one's brought up Meteor Swarm. Judging by the fact that you refer to the character as YOUR "BBEG," I can assume that you're the Dungeon Master. It's YOUR world, if you want to give your BBEG a magic artifact that allows him to cast Meteor Swarm as a spell trigger, then do it! Nothing says "Apocalypse from the Sky" like Meteor Swarm. Except for the "Apocalypse fron the Sky" spell, of course, but your BBEG isn't going to want to summon a legion of celestials :P.

Anyway, if you're worried about your PCs acquiring such a tasty bit of loot, then customize it a little bit. Give the BBEG a template or a creature type that's relatively obscure that your PCs won't be able to emulate or won't want to emulate. Make it an artifact; that's always good for laughs!

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm a little surprised that we're in a thread taking about spells that simulate nukes and no one's brought up Meteor Swarm. Judging by the fact that you refer to the character as YOUR "BBEG," I can assume that you're the Dungeon Master. It's YOUR world, if you want to give your BBEG a magic artifact that allows him to cast Meteor Swarm as a spell trigger, then do it! Nothing says "Apocalypse from the Sky" like Meteor Swarm. Except for the "Apocalypse fron the Sky" spell, of course, but your BBEG isn't going to want to summon a legion of celestials :P.

Anyway, if you're worried about your PCs acquiring such a tasty bit of loot, then customize it a little bit. Give the BBEG a template or a creature type that's relatively obscure that your PCs won't be able to emulate or won't want to emulate. Make it an artifact; that's always good for laughs!

errr Apocalypse from the sky is a VILE spell which requires sacrificing an artefact to even cast it (may even need a Good artefact but I am not sure), the legion of angels summoning spell must be either

a) chain gating solars

or

b)there is a spell in the SC or the BoED that does just that.

[Kaww]

I'm a little surprised that we're in a thread taking about spells that simulate nukes and no one's brought up Meteor Swarm. Judging by the fact that you refer to the character as YOUR "BBEG," I can assume that you're the Dungeon Master. It's YOUR world, if you want to give your BBEG a magic artifact that allows him to cast Meteor Swarm as a spell trigger, then do it! Nothing says "Apocalypse from the Sky" like Meteor Swarm. Except for the "Apocalypse fron the Sky" spell, of course, but your BBEG isn't going to want to summon a legion of celestials :P.

Anyway, if you're worried about your PCs acquiring such a tasty bit of loot, then customize it a little bit. Give the BBEG a template or a creature type that's relatively obscure that your PCs won't be able to emulate or won't want to emulate. Make it an artifact; that's always good for laughs!

Aghm, look at the thread name... *facepalm*

[Tytalus]

Unfortunately it is, as far as I know, the only good way to generate nuclear weapon level destruction, at least pre-epic.

It doesn't actually destroy anything, though, just deal damage to creatures caught in the blast.


Locate City + Snowcasting + Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution: Electricity + Born of the Three Thunders + Explosive spell takes only a 4th level spell slot to accomplish.

I like to add Fell Animate for a Zombicalypse.

[Myth]

I'm a little surprised that we're in a thread taking about spells that simulate nukes and no one's brought up Meteor Swarm. Judging by the fact that you refer to the character as YOUR "BBEG," I can assume that you're the Dungeon Master. It's YOUR world, if you want to give your BBEG a magic artifact that allows him to cast Meteor Swarm as a spell trigger, then do it! Nothing says "Apocalypse from the Sky" like Meteor Swarm. Except for the "Apocalypse fron the Sky" spell, of course, but your BBEG isn't going to want to summon a legion of celestials :P.

Anyway, if you're worried about your PCs acquiring such a tasty bit of loot, then customize it a little bit. Give the BBEG a template or a creature type that's relatively obscure that your PCs won't be able to emulate or won't want to emulate. Make it an artifact; that's always good for laughs!

Meteor Swarm and Apocalypse from the Sky are both 9th levlel spells and they both fail at what they are supposed to do. I can create a real nuke in that 9th level slot (if pure damage was actually good at that level)

OP can you specify what you want to accomplish? Deah d6s of damage to your PCs? Wipe out a village of level 1 Commoners? Desolate the countryside? All of the above?

BTW Anti-Osmium bomb is a theoretical instance, DnD does not use real world physics. It's not going to work, just like the commoner railgun is not going to work either.

[Runestar]

errr Apocalypse from the sky is a VILE spell which requires sacrificing an artefact to even cast it (may even need a Good artefact but I am not sure),

A shadowcraft mage would be able to replicate said spell as a standard action without the need to supply an artifact. :smallcool:

But I digress...

[JeminiZero]

I like to add Fell Animate for a Zombicalypse.

Actually, the Fell Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8868176&postcount=27) version works better.

[true_shinken]

OP can you specify what you want to accomplish? Deah d6s of damage to your PCs? Wipe out a village of level 1 Commoners? Desolate the countryside? All of the above?

All of the above :D
I thought of the Locate City bomb, but then I read the mechanics and I can't believe how anyone even thinks that works...

[Radar]

All of the above :D
I thought of the Locate City bomb, but then I read the mechanics and I can't believe how anyone even thinks that works...
Well, the Fell Drain version works fine and nothing says trouble like a Wightocalypse.

Control Winds with a high enough caster level will obliterate any buildings and any citizens as well. Circular wind with a calm area inside seems to be most suitable for your needs. The only thing needed to make the spell big and destructive is a substantially boosted caster level. It is also important to note, that it has long duration and no level cap on any parameter.

There is also Contagion, but it won't spread fast enough and just doesn't fit the style.

[Tytalus]

Actually, the Fell Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8868176&postcount=27) version works better.

Not if what you are after is a Zombiecalypse. :smallsmile:

[CubeB]

Baby, Baby, Baby, Baby... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9E3VR8Fnj0)

Sorry. *Ahem*

Well, I'm not sure if the rules actually support this, but you could always tie in a Fires Of Dis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) incantation to the tarrasque simulacrums. The effect would send the Tarrasque to Dis and replace it with a pit fiend. The radius is only 80 feet, but the pit fiend can rampage indefinitely. So it's really only good as an emergency Self Destruct.

Alternatively, you could just give each tarrasque a unique spell like ability that lets it deal Xd10 damage in a radius of Y feet Z times per day.

[dgnslyr]

BTW Anti-Osmium bomb is a theoretical instance, DnD does not use real world physics. It's not going to work, just like the commoner railgun is not going to work either.

Hrm? I thought DnD used real-world physics, or a close approximation, if no official rules concerning the matter exist. The commoner railgun fails not because DnD doesn't use real-world physics, but because rules for throwing clubs already exist. Maybe that's a different ruling, though.

[Eloel]

All of the above :D
I thought of the Locate City bomb, but then I read the mechanics and I can't believe how anyone even thinks that works...

It works because RAW says it does. Whether a DM would houserule against it is irrelevant.
Easy eh?


Hrm? I thought DnD used real-world physics, or a close approximation, if no official rules concerning the matter exist. The commoner railgun fails not because DnD doesn't use real-world physics, but because rules for throwing clubs already exist. Maybe that's a different ruling, though.
This was what I thought happened as well.

[CubeB]

Hrm? I thought DnD used real-world physics, or a close approximation, if no official rules concerning the matter exist. The commoner railgun fails not because DnD doesn't use real-world physics, but because rules for throwing clubs already exist. Maybe that's a different ruling, though.

Some 3rd Party Supplements imply that technology above a certain level doesn't function in D&D, just like D&D Magic doesn't work in the real world. It's really up to the DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Haha not even close. The best is actually Eschew Materials+Major Creation to make the maximum amount of Anti-Osmium that it's physically possible to create, and watch the ensuing detonation. :smallcool: That's cheese on an bizarre and unusable level though.

OP: I really like Blizzard personally, for the reason that CM mentioned. I also like Firebrand a great deal as well.

Well, that's not so much nuclear, as world-shattering-extinction-of-all-life destruction.

[gbprime]

Blizzard will probably completely wipe out a settlement it's cast over - it makes one foot of snow fall per round for 1 round/lvl.

Blink, blink...

Level 10 caster, extend it... 20 feet of snow in a 1000 foot radius. That's over 20 million cubic feet of water. Melted or not, that's 174 million pounds of water.

I suddenly figured out how I'm going to down the BBEG's flying city. :xykon:

[Thiyr]

Some 3rd Party Supplements imply that technology above a certain level doesn't function in D&D, just like D&D Magic doesn't work in the real world. It's really up to the DM.

I'll stick the the implications flat out stated in the DMG :P (page 136, in the footer, stating that the section was written assuming you followed "The laws of physics". While I agree with how it's up to the DM, overall, I prefer the idea that tech will work just fine. I also like what the DMG poses, that it should be consistent. So it's not that it uses physics if not otherwise stated, its that it assumes physics to work in the functioning of the world. The implications of that, however, mean that this is a game less than suitable for the more physics-y oriented gamers if they try to make use of that knowledge)

[nedz]

I would say that it depends what your target is.

You mentioned Simulacrums of Tarrasques

Simulacrum is limited to creatures whose HD cannot exceed twice your level.
Since Tarrasques are 48 HD, you BBEG has to be 24th level. How come he can only cast 6th level spells ?

BTW If you wanted a 9th level WMD :smallbiggrin:
Open a Gate to the positive material plane.
Open a second Gate to the negative material plane such that the two intersect.

[d13]

Locate City doesn't penetrate solid objects, so you could just hide behind a tree, or behind another person, to block it.

People seem to forget that quite often, unless some of the added metamagic makes it somehow penetrate objects o.o

[Vulaas]

It's a bit small (60ft radius), but I like widened Wings of Flurry to be my nuke of choice on a caster.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Just read the Blizzard spell description... do WotC ever actually read what these spells can do?

[Vladislav]

Haha not even close. The best is actually Eschew Materials+Major Creation to make the maximum amount of Anti-Osmium that it's physically possible to create, and watch the ensuing detonation. :smallcool:Nothing but wishful thinking that breaks upon the walls of reality.


You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.


Material Component
A tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation.

Even a tiny piece of anti-Osmium costs more than 1 gp. If you doubt me, please, go ahead, go into any major city with a 1 gp in your pocket and try to buy some.

[gbprime]

Even a tiny piece of anti-Osmium costs more than 1 gp. If you doubt me, please, go ahead, go into any major city with a 1 gp in your pocket and try to buy some.

Win. :smallcool:

[mint]

I somewhat feel burninating the townz lacks modelling support in D&D.
The best stuff seems almost inadvertent. Like control winds.
Nuking a city with a bucket of d6es feels like the the intuitive way to go about things. But we dont really get spells that deal damage to an area in this way until quite late.
Still, Control Winds will wreck a town if your caster level is good enough.
Also, Call Avalanche -> Blood Snow -> Animate Snow could do some hurtin.
But the setting of a bomb concept is hard to preform in a satisfying way.

[Ormur]

Hrm? I thought DnD used real-world physics, or a close approximation, if no official rules concerning the matter exist. The commoner railgun fails not because DnD doesn't use real-world physics, but because rules for throwing clubs already exist. Maybe that's a different ruling, though.

D&D doesn't handle Newtonian physics so expecting quantum physic to work is a real leap of faith. Not to mention that there is no mention of osmium or antimatter. Finally considering that D&D books seems to go by the ancient Greek model of four elements the major creation anti-osmium bomb always strikes me as nothing but a trite joke, kind of like Pun-Pun but not actually legal.

[arguskos]

Even a tiny piece of anti-Osmium costs more than 1 gp. If you doubt me, please, go ahead, go into any major city with a 1 gp in your pocket and try to buy some.
Since the Anti-Osmium bomb is the RAWtardest of RAW abuse, I would counter with the fact that if something is not listed in the rules as having a price, it doesn't have one by RAW. If you wish to fiat that Anti-Osmium has a price, you're welcome to it (and I completely agree), but by default, it's unlisted, therefore it has no price for the purposes of Eschew Materials, and so you can do it.

Look, I said it was RAWtarded, not usable. The Anti-Osmium bomb is a *joke* (albeit a hilarious one). No need to argue against it when it A) works by RAW, and B) is never going to be allowed anywhere ever.

[dgnslyr]

Nothing but wishful thinking that breaks upon the walls of reality.





Even a tiny piece of anti-Osmium costs more than 1 gp. If you doubt me, please, go ahead, go into any major city with a 1 gp in your pocket and try to buy some.

It never said how big this "tiny" piece of anti-Osmium had to be, did it? In theory, if 1 gp is enough to hypothetically purchase an atom of (anti-)Osmium, you should be okay.

[Thiyr]

Locate City doesn't penetrate solid objects, so you could just hide behind a tree, or behind another person, to block it.

People seem to forget that quite often, unless some of the added metamagic makes it somehow penetrate objects o.o

Why wouldn't it penetrate solid objects? It'd be a fairly worthless spell if it didn't, even for its intended purpose (as using it anywhere that wasn't flatland would cut it off the effect by trees or hills). It isn't a burst, emanation, or spread, so the rules there can't really apply to it. Its effect just happens everywhere in that area to locate a city (And do insignificant damage plus negative levels to those inside. Like radiation, but better!)

Also, in response to the whole material components thing, try going into a city with 1gp and buying a fragment of a 15th level fighter's armor (heroics). Or a dragon scale (hide from dragons). How about an oil-filled hourglass (Slow burn). All of these cost nothing according to spell description, so you can find them in a component pouch ("assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch."). Once again, as this is all meant to be a exercise in RAWtardedness, that also means one could whip out any artifact they want (as they don't have a specific cost, and Apocalypse from the Sky uses them as a component, and the size limit is just on foci), but let's just leave this here, shall we?

[Thurbane]

I don't get the whole anti-osmium thing. Does it even exist in the real world, or is it just theoretical?

[AstralFire]

Pretty sure it's theoretical; I don't know if we've made any anti-matter elements (probably hydrogen), and Osmium is a fairly high numbered element to boot.

[arguskos]

Pretty sure it's theoretical; I don't know if we've made any anti-matter elements (probably hydrogen), and Osmium is a fairly high numbered element to boot.
We have created antimatter. It's just highly unstable and destroys itself rapidly.

We've yet to create anti-osmium, but there's no real reason it can't exist.

[Signmaker]

Pretty sure it's theoretical; I don't know if we've made any anti-matter elements (probably hydrogen), and Osmium is a fairly high numbered element to boot.

Antihydrogen and Antihelium. As for storage, eeesh. Penning trap is the well-known way to go about it, though there are other, more technical methods to it.

[Eloel]

Pretty sure it's theoretical; I don't know if we've made any anti-matter elements (probably hydrogen)
I think they made anti-hydrogen, and kept it long enough to study. Not sure though, just vaguely remember reading it

Edit: I found where I read it. Meh, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176632).

[TroubleBrewing]

If the town has a wall around it, Stone to Flesh + Animate Dead once the heaving mass of pink, fleshy goo dies. And without life support of some kind, it will.

[true_shinken]

I would say that it depends what your target is.

You mentioned Simulacrums of Tarrasques

Simulacrum is limited to creatures whose HD cannot exceed twice your level.
Since Tarrasques are 48 HD, you BBEG has to be 24th level. How come he can only cast 6th level spells ?
Circle Magic.

[Thurbane]

We have created antimatter. It's just highly unstable and destroys itself rapidly.

We've yet to create anti-osmium, but there's no real reason it can't exist.
So the whole anti-osmium "trick" centers around a theoretical substance that were not even able to create in the real world AND relies on it not having a "listed price" (which, BTW, the VAST majority of substances that exist in the real world, both in theory and in practice, do not have D&D prices).

OK, I get that it's a TO "joke", but it's still amazingly dumb.

[Foryn Gilnith]

it's still amazingly dumb.

About on par with the Locate City Bomb; IMO. Can it be done with standard fissionable material?

[Galsiah]

The anti-Osmium bomb cannot be legal by RAW, and here's why: the description for Major Creation states you need a small piece of matter of the type you plan to create. Anti-Osmium by definition is not matter and thus cannot be made with Major Creation.

[Sinfonian]

The anti-Osmium bomb cannot be legal by RAW, and here's why: the description for Major Creation states you need a small piece of matter of the type you plan to create. Anti-Osmium by definition is not matter and thus cannot be made with Major Creation.

That's actually a really good catch.

[gomipile]

The anti-Osmium bomb cannot be legal by RAW, and here's why: the description for Major Creation states you need a small piece of matter of the type you plan to create. Anti-Osmium by definition is not matter and thus cannot be made with Major Creation.

You are operating under an understandable fallacy. I have training in physics, and the definition from Wikipedia is pretty close to the generally accepted one:

Matter is a general term for the substance of which all physical objects are made

Therefore antimatter is a type of matter. Matter that is not antimatter is called matter as well, but that is a case of one word(matter) having two meanings. You have to pay attention to context in such cases where there might be confusion.

But since we are talking real world physics, the language of real world physics does not provide a contradiction to the anti-osmium bomb in the sense you mean.

[Thiyr]

Interesting note: Anti-matter is a kind of matter!

Matter, if defined as that which has mass and volume, would still include antimatter, which is simply stuff made of antiparticles, which are just the particles that make normal matter with the charges reversed (so positrons and antiprotons are the anti-matter-equivalents of electrons and protons respectively.) Antimatter, such as say antihydrogen, has the same mass and volume as standard-hydrogen.

Ah, the things you learn from reading the first paragraph of wikipedia articles. Presuming this information is accurate, then, antimatter -is- in fact matter, and what we usually call matter would be called standard-matter (to use terms I ganked from aforementioned first paragraphs. Woo!)

Edit: What ^he^ said, but with more wikipedia.

[Tvtyrant]

Why is this idea crazy? Because the wizard would never have thought of it and thus can't cast it.

It's not RAW because anything never mentioned in RAW or by the DM has never been though of, and so is metagaming.

[Thurbane]

I still don't get how you can create a theoretical substance with a spell in D&D. It's just asinine. Also, that whole "you need a sample of the material you're creating" deal kinda blows a hole in it...you can argue that Eschew Materials does the job, but that relies on the "any imaginable substance that doesn't have a GP value listed in any 3.5 books is therefore free" shonky trail of logic.

You might as well use a Wish scroll to summon your very own Apache attack chopper, since it doesn't have a GP value listed.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I still don't get how you can create a theoretical substance with a spell in D&D. It's just asinine.
YMMV, I guess. Can Major Creation make anti-hydrogen, which exists? There's no reason it shouldn't be able to make anti-osmium or anti-thorium or whatever, if it can make antimatter. That's a tiny hurdle compared to having a wizard capable of understanding antimatter. Which is, in turn, a tiny hurdle compared to overcoming the material component. But I really don't see any reason why an Omniscificer with Major Creation as an SLA couldn't make anti-osmium.

And, you know, OP did ask for "mass destruction"...

[Thurbane]

YMMV, I guess. Can Major Creation make anti-hydrogen, which exists?
Well to my mind, it's about as valid as wishing for the Apache. As you say, YMMV.

[Urpriest]

Look, within retarded RAW you can Major Creation Anti-Osmium. However, it doesn't do anything, because RAW annihilation and release of energy don't do damage. You can argue that normal physics applies, but death isn't a physical state, it's a rules entity. So you would get blown to smithereens by an anti-osmium bomb, but would still have exactly the same stats and capabilities as nothing in the description of anti-osmium hampers these abilities. Much like how Drunken Masters can make their foes "break apart and become useless."

[Dante & Vergil]

If the OP is the DM, then I suggest something a little less cheesy because it just might get repaid in kind with more cheese.

[Thiyr]

You might as well use a Wish scroll to summon your very own Apache attack chopper, since it doesn't have a GP value listed.

The only thing I'll argue this point with is mostly the same means the damage of said exploding dairy bomb is: comparing it to something we do know. In this case, the Apache costs at least 18 million USD. Compare that to the price of a mansion. In D&D, costs 100,000 GP, IRL prices I've seen on a cursory search get to about 17 million USD. So the Apache would have a cost most likely over 100,000, meaning it would cost well over the $25,000 limit. Eschew materials, however, says that you waive material costs under 1 gp. A tiny piece of anti-osmium can very well be under that. Say, if we go down to the atomic level.

That said, this all assumes that the person using it has knowledge of such a thing, which they most likely don't, but that's a whole different discussion.

also.

Why is this idea crazy? Because the wizard would never have thought of it and thus can't cast it.

It's not RAW because anything never mentioned in RAW or by the DM has never been though of, and so is metagaming.

This...doesn't make sense to me. mostly 'cause a) I don't find this crazy. Simply over the top. b) Which the wizard are we talking about? Any wizard? because I've seen some equally over-the-top concepts that would know (coughomniscifercough). c) So making a character for a game by yourself is metagaming? That doesn't make sense. And such a comment doesn't work anyway. Neither my DM nor the rulebooks make mention of basic math in-setting. Does that mean that nobody can add 2 and 2? If the DM says it doesn't exist, fine, whatever. But if my character knows literally everything, he can know how to make this, and by rules it will work. The damage calculations are up for argument, though I enjoy the work that was put in converting it to d6s via an appropriate amount of TNT, so I'll go with that.

Note: I do not advice actually using the Stinky Dairy Bomb. I just find that I enjoy arguing this stuff. Thank you for entertaining me :D

[AstralFire]

I don't really understand the point of arguing how RAW a joke is. It's clever, it used outside the box thinking, and no one will ever use it in their wildest imagination.

[Emmerask]

The only thing I'll argue this point with is mostly the same means the damage of said exploding dairy bomb is: comparing it to something we do know. In this case, the Apache costs at least 18 million USD. Compare that to the price of a mansion. In D&D, costs 100,000 GP, IRL prices I've seen on a cursory search get to about 17 million USD. So the Apache would have a cost most likely over 100,000, meaning it would cost well over the $25,000 limit. Eschew materials, however, says that you waive material costs under 1 gp. A tiny piece of anti-osmium can very well be under that. Say, if we go down to the atomic level.

That said, this all assumes that the person using it has knowledge of such a thing, which they most likely don't, but that's a whole different discussion.


I would strongly advice not to have any antimatter in your pouch, because then you don´t have a pouch anymore :smalltongue:

But if you could have even one antimatter atom trapped under perfect conditions ie without annihilation, people would pay far more then 1gp (in $) for it :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

This...doesn't make sense to me. mostly 'cause a) I don't find this crazy. Simply over the top. b) Which the wizard are we talking about? Any wizard? because I've seen some equally over-the-top concepts that would know (coughomniscifercough). c) So making a character for a game by yourself is metagaming? That doesn't make sense. And such a comment doesn't work anyway. Neither my DM nor the rulebooks make mention of basic math in-setting. Does that mean that nobody can add 2 and 2? If the DM says it doesn't exist, fine, whatever. But if my character knows literally everything, he can know how to make this, and by rules it will work. The damage calculations are up for argument, though I enjoy the work that was put in converting it to d6s via an appropriate amount of TNT, so I'll go with that.

A)Crazy because if you can create matter there wouldn't be energy released by annihilation; magic makes the physics of our world immaterial.
B)A wizard would have to have background physics knowledge to even think to ask/search for this information. In a universe where worlds are connected to giant glass spheres there isn't a reason to believe in quantum mechanics; and a world with intervening gods doesn't really bring speculation about what materials the world is made of, since its all Duex ex Machina.
C) Making a character using RL knowledge is the definition of Metagaming; if I had my rogue craft a machine gun he would be doing the exact same thing. Also, basic math was developed when people started having the count sheep in a flock, its much more reasonable then a knowledge of advanced particle physics.
D) If your character knew everything, he/she could just rewrite the universe to match their ideals using everythings Truenames, since it would know both all of the names and how to say them all without messing up.

[Urpriest]

I would strongly advice not to have any antimatter in your pouch, because then you don´t have a pouch anymore :smalltongue:

But if you could have even one antimatter atom trapped under perfect conditions ie without annihilation, people would pay far more then 1gp (in $) for it :smallwink:

This last. Just because an object is smaller doesn't mean it has proportionately lower value. Quite the opposite in some cases.

[Jack_Simth]

Basically it. What is the best spell of up to 6th level to be used as a substitute for a nuke? I'm not very skilled on metamagic shenaningans, so I really don't know...

My BBEG will be using this on his tarrasque simulacrums - Craft Contingent Spell + codeword as a trigger most likely.
Ah, here we go...

Libris Mortis: Necrotic Eruption (Sor/Wiz/Cleric-6, requires a feat to get, but oh well). Combine with:
1) A Rod of Chain Spell (Magic Item Compendium): Chain spell for free, 3/day.
2) Necrotic Cyst, and a lesser rod of Reach Spell (also Magic Item Compendium)
3) A lot of chickens (Core (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins), 2 cp each)

You implant each of the chickens with a Necrotic Cyst. You then release them at your opponent (who will likely be very, very confused), and use the Rod of Chain Spell on Necrotic Eruption, targeting the chickens. Every chicken (up to one per caster level, I think, but it might be one more than that... need to double-check the wording on Chain Spell) in a 30-foot diameter circle then explodes for 1d6 damage per caster level in a 20-foot radius spread. So at caster level 11, you can detonate 11 chickens in a small area, each of which deals 11d6 damage to everything around it. 121d6 damage.

[Fortuna]

I must admit that I always found antimatter with Major Creation to be a bit stupid. Pure electrons are far, far more hilarious.

[Jack_Simth]

I must admit that I always found antimatter with Major Creation to be a bit stupid. Pure electrons are far, far more hilarious.
You know, you come up with some simply shocking ideas.

[gbprime]

please, please... we all know that antimatter is just a focus for a conduit to the negative material plane, and you can't CREATE it, you have to CONJURE it. Basic Knowledge (The Planes) here. You get a bit of it, it starts eating things, and things start crawling out of portals. And if you're really lucky... they don't have tentacles.

:smallwink:

[Urpriest]

I must admit that I always found antimatter with Major Creation to be a bit stupid. Pure electrons are far, far more hilarious.

The pure electrons method tends to create universe-swallowing black holes, however.

[FelixG]

The only thing I'll argue this point with is mostly the same means the damage of said exploding dairy bomb is: comparing it to something we do know. In this case, the Apache costs at least 18 million USD. Compare that to the price of a mansion. In D&D, costs 100,000 GP, IRL prices I've seen on a cursory search get to about 17 million USD. So the Apache would have a cost most likely over 100,000, meaning it would cost well over the $25,000 limit. Eschew materials, however, says that you waive material costs under 1 gp. A tiny piece of anti-osmium can very well be under that. Say, if we go down to the atomic level.

That said, this all assumes that the person using it has knowledge of such a thing, which they most likely don't, but that's a whole different discussion.


Thats why you ask for a +1 Apache attack Helicopter!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Wish doesn't have an upper limit on the cost of magic items, silly but RAW lol :smallbiggrin:

[Fortuna]

You know, you come up with some simply shocking ideas.

Not mine, sadly. Also, *groan*


The pure electrons method tends to create universe-swallowing black holes, however.

Eh? Care to elaborate on that? I thought it just ionized everything within an inordinately large volume and exploded.

[Grynning]

Ah, here we go...

Libris Mortis: Necrotic Eruption (Sor/Wiz/Cleric-6, requires a feat to get, but oh well). Combine with:
1) A Rod of Chain Spell (Magic Item Compendium): Chain spell for free, 3/day.
2) Necrotic Cyst, and a lesser rod of Reach Spell (also Magic Item Compendium)
3) A lot of chickens (Core (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins), 2 cp each)

You implant each of the chickens with a Necrotic Cyst. You then release them at your opponent (who will likely be very, very confused), and use the Rod of Chain Spell on Necrotic Eruption, targeting the chickens. Every chicken (up to one per caster level, I think, but it might be one more than that... need to double-check the wording on Chain Spell) in a 30-foot diameter circle then explodes for 1d6 damage per caster level in a 20-foot radius spread. So at caster level 11, you can detonate 11 chickens in a small area, each of which deals 11d6 damage to everything around it. 121d6 damage.

That is pretty darn cool. I assume you could replace the chickens with crazy cultists or something more serious to get the same basic effect right?

[Urpriest]

Eh? Care to elaborate on that? I thought it just ionized everything within an inordinately large volume and exploded.

The last time I've seen it talked about the number of electrons was such that they would collapse into a black hole with event horizon wider than the observable universe. The ionization effects would be largely irrelevant, as would the explosion.

[Fortuna]

...

Can you direct me to that discussion? That flies in the face of all the little that I know about black holes.

[Urpriest]

...

Can you direct me to that discussion? That flies in the face of all the little that I know about black holes.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173078&highlight=black+hole

Some discussion here. I don't see why it would disagree with your knowledge of black holes though...spells perhaps, but as a black hole it's pretty straightforward.

[Fortuna]

I see. I said pure, not perfectly packed. Perfectly packed... yeah, that's no fun at all.

[Thiyr]

A)Crazy because if you can create matter there wouldn't be energy released by annihilation; magic makes the physics of our world immaterial.
B)A wizard would have to have background physics knowledge to even think to ask/search for this information. In a universe where worlds are connected to giant glass spheres there isn't a reason to believe in quantum mechanics; and a world with intervening gods doesn't really bring speculation about what materials the world is made of, since its all Duex ex Machina.
C) Making a character using RL knowledge is the definition of Metagaming; if I had my rogue craft a machine gun he would be doing the exact same thing. Also, basic math was developed when people started having the count sheep in a flock, its much more reasonable then a knowledge of advanced particle physics.
D) If your character knew everything, he/she could just rewrite the universe to match their ideals using everythings Truenames, since it would know both all of the names and how to say them all without messing up.

a) I disagree, as per the sidebar page 136 of the dmg, stating what the "default" world is like. And why would the ability to create matter have a direct connection to the energy put out by the destruction of matter?
b)Which world is it that's connected to giant glass spheres? Also,Deus ex Machina, aside from being kinda a weird term to use there, doesn't make the questions any less valid. People wonder stuff, it's what we do. Belief in a creator does not not mean you don't want to know what they made it from. Same reason people will open up something they bought to see how it works.
c)My example was chosen purely because it was a reasonable thing to assume (so reasonable, in fact, that it is unlikely to be brought up at table). I guess I should clarify, however, that I don't find metagaming bad, as the act of playing the game in itself is metagaming. If my character has a reason to know this kinda stuff, they can know it. If I DM'ed for a guy who took time to explain how and why their character knows, for instance, theoretical physics, or can come up with schematics for a pneumatic drill, or the like, then it's "metagame', but it's still justifiable. I'd require them to have invested in it, though, and probably to a high degree.
d)Ah, but knowing how to do something and being able to do it are quite different. I may have an infinitely high set of knowledge checks, but without the ranks in truespeak or other means of making use of said name, well, just can't do it.

But honestly, that's enough of this. This is getting far too tangential for my tastes, and it is, more than anything, a joke/thought experiment, so there's no point arguing it too much.

Besides, its much more fun creating small, localized black holes with your enemies -just- inside the event horizon (and a contingent reach teleport object to move it elsewhere. Gogo rudimentary understanding of the mechanics of black holes!)

[JaronK]

About on par with the Locate City Bomb; IMO. Can it be done with standard fissionable material?

Locate City actually seems to work by RAW. The Anti-Osmium thing ignores the fact that in today's world a single anti-proton costs a heck of a lot more than 1gp to make. Though with that said, if you just got a spell like ability of Major Creation (hi there, Runesmith) you could do it, as that would ignore the material requirements.

Of course, while we can theorize how anti-osmium works, we don't know for certain...

And chicken bombs seems like a much more reasonable plan. Consider that a Commoner with the Chicken Infested flaw can generate infinite chickens. Kill the chickens, and then reanimate them with somebody that has the Destructive Retribution feat (they'll need Corpse Crafter too). Now send an army of zombie chickens at the enemy. They'll attack mindlessly, but when killed they'll explode, and spread out they should do a heck of a lot of damage.

Welcome to D&D, where exploding chickens are the reasonable plan.

JaronK

[wayfare]

Exploding chickens is certainly the best idea so far.

How is the whole Anti-Matter thing supposed to work if the anti-matter will instantly react to matter and annihilate? Unless your spell has a casting time less than .165 seconds, it ain't gonna work.

[Old Man NPC]

Locate City actually seems to work by RAW. The *Snip*
And chicken bombs seems like a much more reasonable plan. Consider that a Commoner with the Chicken Infested flaw can generate infinite chickens. Kill the chickens, and then reanimate them with somebody that has the Destructive Retribution feat (they'll need Corpse Crafter too). Now send an army of zombie chickens at the enemy. They'll attack mindlessly, but when killed they'll explode, and spread out they should do a heck of a lot of damage.

Welcome to D&D, where exploding chickens are the reasonable plan.

JaronK

I'm stealing this for my friend's coliseum pvp game coming up...

[Radar]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173078&highlight=black+hole

Some discussion here. I don't see why it would disagree with your knowledge of black holes though...spells perhaps, but as a black hole it's pretty straightforward.

It's all beyond RAW frankly, but I wouldn't use perfect packing for calculations - that would require for the electrons to have nearly infinite energies (thanks to Pauli Exclusion principle). This means, that this pile of electrons would have nearly infinite temperature and I think, that Major Creation gives you matter at about room temperature (or at least matching the enviroment). Thus one should take size of electron wave packets of kinetic energy 3kT/2 with T at about 300K. My very scetchy calculations give me the wavelenght of about 2.5*10^(-15) m. This in turn gives us about 2.23*10^(44) electrons in a 5ft cube. This gets us a mass of 2*10^(17) kg. Schwarzschild radius for such a mass is neglectibly small, so no black hole will be created. Still the immense electric charge will cause an explosion of unimaginable proportions and tear the planet apart (at least). To put things in perspective: if we spread 1 kg of electron all over the Earth and replace the Sun with an equivalent opposite charge, we would be pulled with about the same force as we experiance now de to gravity (or so I remember - I would have to calculate that).

[FelixG]

I think with major creation you could create something hot or cold, You have a hand full of water and use major creation to make a sheet of ice.

Or you are holding a stone and use Major Creation to make lava ect

It gives no stipulations of the items temperature :smallsmile:

[faceroll]

So the whole anti-osmium "trick" centers around a theoretical substance that were not even able to create in the real world AND relies on it not having a "listed price" (which, BTW, the VAST majority of substances that exist in the real world, both in theory and in practice, do not have D&D prices).

OK, I get that it's a TO "joke", but it's still amazingly dumb.

Antimatter is about as "theoretical" as gravity.

[JaronK]

Antimatter is about as "theoretical" as gravity.

But the exact properties of Anti-Osmium are indeed theoretical. Have we even managed to make Anti-Hydrogen stable at all?

JaronK

[true_shinken]

Ah, here we go...

Libris Mortis: Necrotic Eruption (Sor/Wiz/Cleric-6, requires a feat to get, but oh well). Combine with:
1) A Rod of Chain Spell (Magic Item Compendium): Chain spell for free, 3/day.
2) Necrotic Cyst, and a lesser rod of Reach Spell (also Magic Item Compendium)
3) A lot of chickens (Core (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins), 2 cp each)

You implant each of the chickens with a Necrotic Cyst. You then release them at your opponent (who will likely be very, very confused), and use the Rod of Chain Spell on Necrotic Eruption, targeting the chickens. Every chicken (up to one per caster level, I think, but it might be one more than that... need to double-check the wording on Chain Spell) in a 30-foot diameter circle then explodes for 1d6 damage per caster level in a 20-foot radius spread. So at caster level 11, you can detonate 11 chickens in a small area, each of which deals 11d6 damage to everything around it. 121d6 damage.

Hmm, this looks like a good idea. I'll probably use elan soldiers/cultists as bombs, though. :smallsmile:

[Radar]

I think with major creation you could create something hot or cold, You have a hand full of water and use major creation to make a sheet of ice.

Or you are holding a stone and use Major Creation to make lava ect

It gives no stipulations of the items temperature :smallsmile:
Then you don't even need to create Anti-Osmium - you can just create ordinary iron at an arbitrarily high temperature and pressure, thus getting a bomb of aribitrary detonation power. Major Creation must maintain either temperature and/or pressure within some reasonable bounds - otherwise it's a "Make everything go boom!" spell.

[WinWin]

Reminds me of a Mage game wherin a character altered the properties of a chair and tranformed it into solid Hydrogen...

Room temperature and low pressure resulted in a 'cold bomb' that took out half a city block. The reality of such an occurence is beyond my comprehension, but it was a cool effect in the game.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Locate City actually seems to work by RAW
The area of the spell is quite clearly a circle. Circles are two-dimensional. You're cutting a plane of magic that will just push people slightly up (or slightly down). Fell Drain Locate City works better, IMO. Anyone intersecting with the circle gets a negative level.


Have we even managed to make Anti-Hydrogen stable at all?
About a week or so ago, IIRC. http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/11/17/antimatter-antihydrogen-atoms-trap.html

[faceroll]

But the exact properties of Anti-Osmium are indeed theoretical. Have we even managed to make Anti-Hydrogen stable at all?

JaronK

The short answer: yes.

[Myth]

Dweomerkeepers can cast Major Creation as Su negating all material components needed. That still doesn't do anything since Anti-Osmium does not exist in DnD. You have stone, iron, steel, mithral, adamantite etc. all statted out with hardiness, weight, price and so forth. No stats for Anti-Osmium. Or for plain old regular Osmium for that part.

I also remain adamant that Pun-Pun is not RAW legal, by virtue of treating Ice Assasin as capable of replicating a Deity. A Deity is not a creature and the Divine Rank system is awarded based on a number of followers, it is not inherent to the Gods in 3.5. At most you'd create an Ice Assassin of an Outsider with 20 HD that looks like Bane for example.

The second loop that I don't agree is making something a proxy, therefore losing your Divine Rank 1, then getting your Ice Assassin to make you a Proxy AGAIN to get that Divine Rank 1 again AND be able to recall your original DR from your own proxy. That's not RAW legal. You'd be a DR0 Proxy already and you won't be eligible for Proxification again. You can either recall your original Divine Rank back or stay as a DR0 Quasy Deity.

The third assumption that is not legal is that Divine Rank 21 and upward equals an Overdeity. In the Overdeity block we see that they are DR 21+ Gods and are to Gods as Gods are to mortals. But just because every Greter Deity is DR21+ does not mean that every Deity that gets 21+ divine ranks is automatically a Greater Deity!

So no Pun-Pun is not legal and he will always lose to Supreme Initative + Salient Death.

[JaronK]

The short answer: yes.

The longer answer: only if a tenth of a second counts as stable.


has found a way to trap atoms of antihydrogen away from the walls of their container to prevent them from getting annihilated for nearly one-10th of a second.

I think it's fair to say we're still studying anti hydrogen to see if it operates as expected.

And since when has Pun Pun required Ice Assassin abuse? That's only one of many ways to gain divine ranks... but the base of the Pun Pun concept is just getting every power ever. He doesn't need Ice Assassin for that.

JaronK

[Myth]

Do tell what is another way for obtaining Divine Ranks? As per the Divine Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm)?

[faceroll]

The longer answer: only if a tenth of a second counts as stable.

It was a sixth of a second, and it certainly counts as "stable at all", as you originally queried. It is certainly a lot longer than the nanooseconds it would last when it boiled into the container walls at a few thousand kelvin.

[Tvtyrant]

Its actually rather silly, since we have been reasonably certain that anti-matter exits since the 1980's. So much effort to prove things we already know :P (I know that's what empiricism does, its still funny).

[Galsiah]

Do tell what is another way for obtaining Divine Ranks? As per the Divine Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm)?

You're missing the point that Pun-Pun doesn't even need to bother with Divine Ranks to be Pun-Pun, his stats are all arbitrarily high and he can grant himself ANY ability, not just written ones. Thus he can just say "I am a diety" and be one.

[Incanur]

You're missing the point that Pun-Pun doesn't even need to bother with Divine Ranks to be Pun-Pun, his stats are all arbitrarily high and he can grant himself ANY ability, not just written ones. Thus he can just say "I am a diety" and be one.

That's a silly misreading of the Manipulate Form ability. "I am a deity" is a not Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural ability.

[faceroll]

Its actually rather silly, since we have been reasonably certain that anti-matter exits since the 1980's. So much effort to prove things we already know :P (I know that's what empiricism does, its still funny).

Actually, the current experiments with anti-matter aren't to prove it exists, but to get it into a state where we can test to see if it behaves as predicted. Talking without doing would leave us with 4 elements and doctors that made you puke and bleed to cure your leprosy.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, the current experiments with anti-matter aren't to prove it exists, but to get it into a state where we can test to see if it behaves as predicted. Talking without doing would leave us with 4 elements and doctors that made you puke and bleed to cure your leprosy.

lol I take umbrage to that; they did it lots of times! And the four elements thing turned out to be correct; how many states of matter are there? Four, and they just happen to match the old elements system. Switching what "elements" means makes them sound stupid, but they were technically correct.

[faceroll]

lol I take umbrage to that; they did it lots of times! And the four elements thing turned out to be correct; how many states of matter are there? Four, and they just happen to match the old elements system. Switching what "elements" means makes them sound stupid, but they were technically correct.

EARTH HAS 4 CORNER
SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY
TIME CUBE
IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION.
4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH- No 1 Day God.

Ahem.
Mathamancy isn't real.

[Thiyr]

I also remain adamant that Pun-Pun is not RAW legal, by virtue of treating Ice Assasin as capable of replicating a Deity. A Deity is not a creature and the Divine Rank system is awarded based on a number of followers, it is not inherent to the Gods in 3.5. At most you'd create an Ice Assassin of an Outsider with 20 HD that looks like Bane for example.


For your first point. Most deities are creatures of the outsider type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks).

As for what grants divine ranks, I'm seeing nothing about how they're awarded aside from investing them. I see no reason the ranks wouldn't be copied as well.

As for the whole "You're DR 0 so you can't proxy again", I'm not seeing why you wouldn't be able to. Presuming something can't be invested with more than 1 DR at a time (though I couldn't find that, it's still not a bad decision), then there's still no issue. DR 0 =/= DR 1. If a proxy is invested in and then their DR is recalled, they can be re-invested in, as they aren't at the DR 1 limit. If they invest that DR, it's functionally the same.

So yes pun pun is legal even if it's kinds stupid that he just plain can't die.

(As a side note I've noticed I make a lot of posts attempting to demonstrate the validity of stupid TO tricks that shouldn't work but do. Is that weird?)

[Radar]

lol I take umbrage to that; they did it lots of times! And the four elements thing turned out to be correct; how many states of matter are there? Four, and they just happen to match the old elements system. Switching what "elements" means makes them sound stupid, but they were technically correct.
There are more states of matter to be frank. We can have solids, liquids, gases, superfluids, atomic/nuclear/quark-gluonic plasma and let's not get into solid state phase shifts which might or might not count. They were not even remotly correct (we might not be as well).

[Ormur]

Its actually rather silly, since we have been reasonably certain that anti-matter exits since the 1980's. So much effort to prove things we already know :P (I know that's what empiricism does, its still funny).

It's been pretty certain since the 50's but that doesn't mean observing actual antimatter can't yield useful data. There's more to know about antimatter than just that it exists.

[Azernak0]

"The Wizard casts Fireball and burns down the village."
"Theory-Dahr creates a pound of anti-matter and blows up the village."

"Hey, that's just unrealistic and totally unacceptable!"

These kinds of arguments always astound me. When something works by RAW but would never, ever be allowed in play, we call it RAWtarded and just giggle about what is actually possible in the system. It's like finding a glitch in a video game that gives you God Mode; you don't say "Mario not being able to die is just impossible!", you say "That's ridiculous, but it works."

For massive destruction of an area, Control Winds and Blizzard are both pretty nasty. Summon Monster VI lets you summon a Chaos Beast, which would likely be more than happy dropping in a crowded area in an effort to make even more Chaos Beasts. A Xill might also enjoy planting it's young inside a few commoners and having them burst out 3 months later. For added effect, be sure to target John Hurt.

[tyckspoon]

That's a silly misreading of the Manipulate Form ability. "I am a deity" is a not Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural ability.

No, but 'I do not fail a save or attack roll on a rolled 1', 'I have fast healing', 'I can see anything within 5 miles of me', and all the other flotsam that come with Divine Rank can be Ex, Sp, or Su abilities. It's just much, much faster to record that on a character sheet as Divine Rank (X), see Deities and Demigods for effects, than it is to list out every single divine ability. (Although if you grant the ability to create effects whole-cloth but are still hung up on the Divine Rank thing, Punners can also give himself something like Not!AGod (Su): Pun-Pun has N!DR 20. This grants all the traits and abilities of Divine Rank 20, except for being a worshipped being.)

[Incanur]

Summon Monster VI lets you summon a Chaos Beast, which would likely be more than happy dropping in a crowded area in an effort to make even more Chaos Beasts. A Xill might also enjoy planting it's young inside a few commoners and having them burst out 3 months later. For added effect, be sure to target John Hurt.

Shadows and the like are much more effective for the exponential infestation scenario. An average of 3 hits on your typical dirt farmer produces another shadow in 6-24 seconds. That's a mean replication time of 33 seconds, much faster than any known type of bacteria! Distance between victim would significantly slow this down, but a single shadow could still convert an entire rural settlement in a matter of minutes. I can only assume crack teams of high-level adventurers monitor the planes for such infestations and intervene before things get out of control.