Fighter vs Wizard

[Lans]

I think we all know what happens when a fighter is in a party with a wizard


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

But how many of us know what happens when a fighter faces off against a wizard? This is that story.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y&feature=player_embedded



Edit-sorry about the formatting, and the bad lead in, I hit submit before I was ready.

[Flickerdart]

That happens only if the Wizard has no spells left. Or scrolls, or wands, or potions, or minions or items.

[Koury]

{Scrubbed}

[dgnslyr]

{Scrubbed the original, scrub the quote.}

FTFY, Koury.

As for some actual input, Wizards being stronger is a given; the real debate in how much of an optimization difference is needed for a Fighter to bring down an equal level Wizard.

[Flickerdart]

Then we get into the issue where optimizing the Fighter involves cross-class UMD ranks and then you're not playing a Fighter anymore.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If we had just left it at Koury and enjoyed our delicious, humorous, and obviously untrue hyperbole instead of bringing in nuance and facts, we'd all be better off.

[The Big Dice]

{Scrubbed the original, scrub the quote.}

Fixed that for the inevitable round of argument and counter argument.

[Lans]

That happens only if the Wizard has no spells left. Or scrolls, or wands, or potions, or minions or items.
Your missing the point, that wizard was only using the spoon because it wanted too. The fighter was no threat even with an arsenal of weapons, and decades of vain attempts to defend its self as it was whittled down 1hp at a time. Like a cat and a rat, only in this case it was a relentless eternal creature and a guy bound by the rules of reality.

[Flickerdart]

Forgive me for thinking that the man using the melee weapon was the Fighter.

[FMArthur]

This is what happens when a Wizard prepares only defense-increasing spells and blasting spells one opponent happens to be immune to. He can't even prepare new spells because the fighter follows him forever and beats on him for nonlethal damage (stupid Shatter spell!). Every decent Wizard school now shows this film as a warning.

[Signmaker]

{Scrubbed the original, scrub the quote.}

Tsk tsk. Are we talking Arena fight here, or an actual logical fight?

A logical fight I'd agree with you (divination, contingencies, demiplanes, gg), but arena fights have a tendency to be determined by the arena rules and the enthusiasm of the builders (of course, still with a wizard advantage). Granted, you'll get the arguments of "That doesn't look like a fighter anymore!", but it's still Ftr20 vs Wiz20, and I'm the sort that believes that a fighter is stupid not to pick up some sort of casting ability by that level.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Wizard20? *cough* Wail of the Banshee *cough*

[Signmaker]

Wizard20? *cough* Wail of the Banshee *cough*

Oh noes! A death effect!...except that death effect spells have been around for the last five spell levels, and naturally he's Got Something For That. Much more likely if we leave the core universe and throw some splat in to the mix.

I'll give it to you that the Wizard Goes First. Presumably, the Wizard Going First means that Bad Things Happen to the Fighter. Traditionally, Arena fights have either 1. Disallowed that for the sake of handicap or 2. Allowed it, understanding that it was the responsibility of the Fighter player to either surprise the Wizard player with a trick or simply work around losing initiative.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Oh noes! A death effect!...except that death effect spells have been around for the last five spell levels, and naturally he's Got Something For That. Much more likely if we leave the core universe and throw some splat in to the mix.

If we are throwing Splat in you are just increasing the odds of the Wizard being immune to everything the Fighter can do, more spells to insta-kill or do bucket-loads of damage per round

[Signmaker]

If we are throwing Splat in you are just increasing the odds of the Wizard being immune to everything the Fighter can do, more spells to insta-kill or do bucket-loads of damage per round

Splat is strange. While the Wizard gets more options (far, FAR more options than Fighter), the Wizard will only be preparing so many per day. Even if you were to provide the Wizard arbitrary spell selection, the Fighter can still make the analysis that a Wizard will do 'something'; if the Fighter isn't up to snuff, he dies or otherwise is in no position to win the match. 'Something' can include the following list (and will likely include a few more that I can't immediately catch on to)

1. Attack Roll
2. Fort Save
3. Reflex Save
4. Will Save
5. HD-dependant ability (Blasphemy, etc)
6. Descriptor-based ability
7. AoE-based ability

If you notice, quite a few of these 'targets' are quite manageable at 20th level, independant of class levels. Wealth tends to do things like grant absurd saves as well as Evasion and Mettle, and Death Ward/Mind Blank triggers.


The followup argument is pretty simple and involves the words, "Go First", "Dispel", and "Contingency". That's the painful part of the fight, as the Wizard (being a Wizard) actually has the clear-cut advantage in the Dispel department, regardless of the Fighter obtaining contingencies via Contingent Spells (CArc) and Gem Magic (MoF) triggers.

[grarrrg]

Ok, I admit that I'm a big fan of THSMWTEIW, but in all seriousness.

Which one IS supposed to be the Fighter and which the Wizard?

[Kyuu Himura]

At first, when it's only annoying, the spirit is the fighter.
Then, when it goes lethal and unstoppable and stuff, the spirit is the wizard.

[tyckspoon]

Ok, I admit that I'm a big fan of THSMWTEIW, but in all seriousness.

Which one IS supposed to be the Fighter and which the Wizard?

It's pretty obvious if you actually look at what each of them do in the short, I think. The spirit does whatever he wants, when and where he wants it, regardless of anybody or anything's attempted influence. It just so happens that what he wants to do is beat a man to death, very, very slowly, with a spoon. The man, on the other hand, goes through a series of apparently practical measures, rooted in real-world solutions to what seems to be the problem (a creature assaulting him a spoon, remember) and then resorts to greater and greater mundane force, none of which actually stops the spirit and most of which doesn't even slow it down.

So.. which one do you think is the Wizard?

[DragonOfUndeath]

It's pretty obvious if you actually look at what each of them do in the short, I think. The spirit does whatever he wants, when and where he wants it, regardless of anybody or anything's attempted influence. It just so happens that what he wants to do is beat a man to death, very, very slowly, with a spoon. The man, on the other hand, goes through a series of apparently practical measures, rooted in real-world solutions to what seems to be the problem (a creature assaulting him a spoon, remember) and then resorts to greater and greater mundane force, none of which actually stops the spirit and most of which doesn't even slow it down.

So.. which one do you think is the Wizard?

the man :smalltongue:

[AshDesert]

Didn't the Playground already do a test of a bunch of one on one battles of 13th level Wizards versus 20th level Fighters (maybe 15th level Wizards, but I remember they were lower level than the Fighters)? And the only Fighter that won use cc UMD and every bit of his WBL specifically to kill a Wizard? All I remember was that it was pretty definitive that Wizards are ridiculously powerful. Wiz 20 vs Ftr 20 wouldn't even be close to fair, 9th level spells are pretty frickin ridiculous.

[Runestar]

You don't even need 9th lv spells. Stuff like forcecage and reverse gravity pretty much negate the fighter (and any melee brute without magical support by extension) without allowing for saves or sr. :smallannoyed:

[Foeofthelance]

Splat is strange. While the Wizard gets more options (far, FAR more options than Fighter), the Wizard will only be preparing so many per day. Even if you were to provide the Wizard arbitrary spell selection, the Fighter can still make the analysis that a Wizard will do 'something'; if the Fighter isn't up to snuff, he dies or otherwise is in no position to win the match. 'Something' can include the following list (and will likely include a few more that I can't immediately catch on to)


The followup argument is pretty simple and involves the words, "Go First", "Dispel", and "Contingency". That's the painful part of the fight, as the Wizard (being a Wizard) actually has the clear-cut advantage in the Dispel department, regardless of the Fighter obtaining contingencies via Contingent Spells (CArc) and Gem Magic (MoF) triggers.

Does this really work though? I mean, you can have a single contingency* operable, and it will go off once. So the wizard effectively gets an extra spell, when he's already got plenty, and only if the fighter fulfills the trigger, which is most likely going to be very vague ("I get attacked"). Admittedly its a free action, but its a free action that can only target the caster. So the fighter takes a swing, and the mage gets a free buff.

Same thing with dispel*. Granted, it can cancel out a buff spell on the fighter, but the fighter doesn't know buff spells. The fighter is instead going to be relying on permanent buffs from his items, which dispel can only shut down one at a time, and only for 1d4 rounds at a time, if it succeeds at all, since the caster bonus to regular dispel is limited to +10. Its either that or use a sixth level slot for Greater Dispel to guarantee the item is turned off, and the more items that need to be targeted, the more slots need to be wasted.

The fighter, by contrast, just needs to think outside the box. Wind Wall, for example, has no effect on siege weapons, and a ballista* siege weapon is nothing more than a huge heavy crossbow that takes 2 rounds to load. Slap the Quick Load ability on it, and the fighter now has a crossbow he can reload as a move action and fire a -3 penalty, while still having room for another +8s worth of abilities/bonuses. Making up the penalty probably wouldn't be that difficult, since if the fighter is focusing on taking out wizards, a dex based build is better than strength one, the wizard won't have much in the way of armor (especially not if its the typical "batman"). It basically involves thinking of what the wizard would do, and prepare for it in an unorthodox manner.

* Spell and ballista descriptions garnered from the SDR.

[AstralFire]

Craft Contingency, unfortunately, gets around that limit.

[FMArthur]

*Craft Contingent Spell

[Claudius Maximus]

I've seen my share of arena battles, and let me just say that I'm pretty sure that even in a situation where casters have a giant list of banned tactics, they can beat martial characters almost every time. I consider myself a decent optimizer, but when I was once given the opportunity to build three 20th level fighters with futuristic weapons to fight one 20th level core wizard, I gave up because there was no way I could possibly win.

[olentu]

Man that guy must have made some sort of spoon themed wizard somewhat irritated.

[Foeofthelance]

Craft Contingency, unfortunately, gets around that limit.

Yeah, but this is 3.x D&D, where a Fighter can just as easily pay for a True Striking Huge Heavy Crossbow of Greater Dispel for 86k gp on top of the normal abilities. It is almost guaranteed that the wizard will run out of his 20 contingency items long before the fighter runs out of bolts.

For the prospective Fighter hoping not to simply die in his first round of combat against the wizard:

+1 Quick Loading True Striking Mage Bane Ballista of Speedy Dispelling - 158,000 Gold

2 attacks a round at +20 to hit each, for a total of 3d8+2d6+1 damage base, crit 19/20, and a mere move action to reload. Will also ignore Wind Wall, and allows for dispel checks with a +13 bonus.

+5 Lucky Bracers - 50,000 gold, +5 to all saves

+5 Amulet of Will, Ring of Reflex, and Cloak of Fortitude - 75,000 gold, or 25,000 each.

+5 Tome of Strength, Dex, Con, Wisdom, Int, Char = 153,000

+5 Boots of Dexterity, Belt of Constitution, and Helm of Wisdom - 75,000

So far I'm up 511,000 gold spent, leaving another 249,000 to be spent, give or take a little. So far I have +15 to all saves, which should just about account for natural caster levels once base stats and level bonuses are factored into play, with a weapon that can somewhat consistently knock out the contingencies that will pop up around the target.

No, this doesn't make Fighter a better class than Wizard. There isn't anything I can think up that can make up that power gulf. Doesn't mean a well prepared fighter can't exploit the item creation rules* to at least take down the stereotyped wizard, even a stereotyped Batman.


*Actually, since it does require exploiting the item creation rules, it just emphasizes the point. In order to battle a wizard fairly, a fighter must first get help from another wizard.

[dextercorvia]

rules

They are guidelines. Also, even if they were rules, True Strike is not something you can add like that. To determine the cost of a custom item, you first compare it to the existing items, and a +20 bonus to attack would make it an Epic item.

[Flickerdart]

Your damage output is pitiful - the Wizard can spend the first round laughing, then Disintegrate, Dispel, Grease or Disjoin your silly toy.

[Foeofthelance]

They are guidelines. Also, even if they were rules, True Strike is not something you can add like that To determine the cost of a custom item, you first compare it to the existing items, and a +20 bonus to attack would make it an Epic item.

Actually, comparing the ability to the other items and deciding it would be epic would be operating under guidelines. According to RAW, price of a "use activated or continuous" is just Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000. If anything, the price I used for the crossbow is a little high, since the minimum level for a True Striking weapon of that caliber is 10,000 (1 x 2,000 x 5 for Craft Magical Arms and Armor) and instead I used 26,000, which would be 1 x 2,000 x caster level 13, the same you would need for greater dispel. Admittedly, the True Strike ability is mostly just for silliness, since the average Batman wizard relies on Wind Wall to block arrows and the ballista ignores that. If its easier, replace it with another +1 ability like Shocking or Flaming.

Though I do admit I screwed up the math, and the crossbow should actually cost 254k, not 158k I posted. I only posted the cost of the Greater Dispel ability. That would leave only 115k for armor and another weapon. I'd say 72k for a +5 Spellstriking Greatsword, 36k to be spent on armor shenanigans, and the last 7k on potions. Lots and lots and lots of potions. When I get finished with the build I'm working on I'll post it, with the understanding that the idea might not necessarily be to win, just not die like a patsy.


Your damage output is pitiful - the Wizard can spend the first round laughing, then Disintegrate, Dispel, Grease or Disjoin your silly toy.

First, damage. Average on 3d8+2d6 is 20.5, while average on 20d4 is 50 using the calculator I found. At the three attacks a round I'm up to, I can out shoot the wizard's HD. Wizards are squishy, so doing massive amounts of damage isn't quite as necessary as it might be as against that Ancient Red Dragon.

Dispel, as discussed above, is just a temporary turn off, not a permanent stop. The others require a save to win. Any save can be beaten. Assuming a wizard with an int of 36, the save DC for Disjoin is a whopping will of 32. Sure that can be improved through metamagic and the like, but right now I've got a fighter with a will save of 25, which means the wizard's spell fails if I roll as low as a 7, and I'm still putting things together. This isn't, "Fighter's beats wizards" this is, "A fighter can beat a wizard, or at least make life very annoying, if he puts as much effort into it as the wizard does."

As for Disintegrate, make the ballista out of darkwood and vastly improve its HP. Might chip into the armor fund, but that's the idea of this little exercise. What commonly available, if expensive, fixes can a fighter find to the wizard's riddles?

[Greenish]

According to RAW, price of a "use activated or continuous" is just Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000.you mean "GAW", as in "Guidelines As Written". :smallamused:

Because that chart explicitly states that it's just a guideline, and the first thing you should do with a custom magic item is to compare it to existing magic items.

[nolispe]

If the fighter is allowed custom items, then the wizard puts on his hat of constant Time Stop and...

[dextercorvia]

Actually, comparing the ability to the other items and deciding it would be epic would be operating under guidelines. According to RAW, price of a "use activated or continuous" is just Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000. If anything, the price I used for the crossbow is a little high, since the minimum level for a True Striking weapon of that caliber is 10,000 (1 x 2,000 x 5 for Craft Magical Arms and Armor) and instead I used 26,000, which would be 1 x 2,000 x caster level 13, the same you would need for greater dispel. Admittedly, the True Strike ability is mostly just for silliness, since the average Batman wizard relies on Wind Wall to block arrows and the ballista ignores that. If its easier, replace it with another +1 ability like Shocking or Flaming.

Though I do admit I screwed up the math, and the crossbow should actually cost 254k, not 158k I posted. I only posted the cost of the Greater Dispel ability. That would leave only 115k for armor and another weapon. I'd say 72k for a +5 Spellstriking Greatsword, 36k to be spent on armor shenanigans, and the last 7k on potions. Lots and lots and lots of potions. When I get finished with the build I'm working on I'll post it, with the understanding that the idea might not necessarily be to win, just not die like a patsy.

As a DM, I might let you make a continuous weapon of True Strike for 2000 (which is the actual minimum -- remember you can always lower your caster level for a given spell) but you should read the text of the spell:


Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus

The spell is discharged as soon as you make an attack.

[TSGames]

In one of the supplements for 3.5 they had rules for a truestriking weapon. It was very bizarre in the way that it worked, and not all that worthwhile. IIRC, it started at a +1 bonus, and the bonus increased each consecutive round of use.

[Foeofthelance]

As a DM, I might let you make a continuous weapon of True Strike for 2000 (which is the actual minimum -- remember you can always lower your caster level for a given spell) but you should read the text of the spell:



The spell is discharged as soon as you make an attack.

If I remember the original design of the true striking weapon put out on these forums many eons ago, the trigger for the spell was supposed to be when an attack was made, so each attack would recast the spell and get the +20. Like I said before though, if that's the biggest complaint about the weapon, drop it for an equivalent cost bonus.


If the fighter is allowed custom items, then the wizard puts on his hat of constant Time Stop and...

No go. Cost on a continuous time stop spell is 1,224,000 which is quite a bit above the 760k Wealth By Level for a 20th level character.

Level 9 Spell x level 17 minimum caster level x 2,000 gold pieces x 4 for a duration measured in rounds.

[Flickerdart]

First, damage. Average on 3d8+2d6 is 20.5, while average on 20d4 is 50 using the calculator I found. At the three attacks a round I'm up to, I can out shoot the wizard's HD. Wizards are squishy, so doing massive amounts of damage isn't quite as necessary as it might be as against that Ancient Red Dragon.

Dispel, as discussed above, is just a temporary turn off, not a permanent stop. The others require a save to win. Any save can be beaten. Assuming a wizard with an int of 36, the save DC for Disjoin is a whopping will of 32. Sure that can be improved through metamagic and the like, but right now I've got a fighter with a will save of 25, which means the wizard's spell fails if I roll as low as a 7, and I'm still putting things together. This isn't, "Fighter's beats wizards" this is, "A fighter can beat a wizard, or at least make life very annoying, if he puts as much effort into it as the wizard does."

As for Disintegrate, make the ballista out of darkwood and vastly improve its HP. Might chip into the armor fund, but that's the idea of this little exercise. What commonly available, if expensive, fixes can a fighter find to the wizard's riddles?
Shatter follows the dispel, your toy is gone.
Also, what sort of wizard doesn't have any points in CON? Even if you do manage to land every hit (which is unlikely, due to non-concealment miss chance and fantastic AC) you're going to be looking at a) DR, and b) at least a 20 CON, for 150HP on average. It will take you an absolute minimum of 3 rounds of the Wizard just sort of hanging around to finish him off, during which anyone can walk up to you and gank you in the chest because you're not exactly mobile with that siege weapon.
This isn't even close to "very" annoying.

[Foeofthelance]

Shatter follows the dispel, your toy is gone.
Also, what sort of wizard doesn't have any points in CON? Even if you do manage to land every hit (which is unlikely, due to non-concealment miss chance and fantastic AC) you're going to be looking at a) DR, and b) at least a 20 CON, for 150HP on average. It will take you an absolute minimum of 3 rounds of the Wizard just sort of hanging around to finish him off, during which anyone can walk up to you and gank you in the chest because you're not exactly mobile with that siege weapon.
This isn't even close to "very" annoying.

Aaaaand again, Shatter requires a save based off the fighter's, assuming the crossbow isn't too heavy to be shattered. Wizard's do not have an infinite number of spells to use. The more you rely on save based spells, the more the question becomes whether or not a fighter can pass enough of them to run out the clock on the wizard.

EDIT: And since when was three rounds a long time in combat?

[tyckspoon]

Aaaaand again, Shatter requires a save based off the fighter's, assuming the crossbow isn't too heavy to be shattered. Wizard's do not have an infinite number of spells to use. The more you rely on save based spells, the more the question becomes whether or not a fighter can pass enough of them to run out the clock on the wizard.


And then the Wizard gets tired of dealing with you, Mazes you (huzzah no-save You Leave The Fight!) and sets a Prismatic Wall to cover your space for when you return.

[Flickerdart]

EDIT: And since when was three rounds a long time in combat?
Uh, always? How long do you expect a combat to last?
It's six spells at minimum that you've got coming your way, not mentioning the Celerity, the Contingency and the Time Stop. You're lucky if you get a single round, never mind three.

[Claudius Maximus]

Not to mention other wizard shenanigans. A really optimized 20th level wizard won't care about your +13 dispel checks (or even if they were +20), will most likely not care about your damage, and won't stay dead even if you do "kill" him. Good luck finding him too, since he has a distinct advantage in choosing when and how the fight will take place.

[Signmaker]

Uh, always? How long do you expect a combat to last?
It's six spells at minimum that you've got coming your way, not mentioning the Celerity, the Contingency and the Time Stop. You're lucky if you get a single round, never mind three.

You neglect to mention the familiar, the free readied actions granted by certain spells/powers (all of which are obtainable with just wealth and the requisite skills), the summoned creatures...



@FoTL: Ballista has a few issues. The first obviously being true strike, the second being that a +13 to dispel is absolutely terrible against a Wiz20, whose CL+BonusFromItems will make it impossible to pass the DC30+BonusFromItems check. In addition, you're assuming only a Wind Wall defense on the part of the Wizard when there is concealment possibilities, AC-boosting tricks (very easily possible with judicial use of Guardinal Feather-laced AC spells), and other instantaneous tricks.
Oh, and it's also REALLLLLLY expensive. Wealth-management is important! =D

On the part of saves, I'm an adamant believer that the very first offensive spell a 20th Level Wizard pulls out is a Chain Dispel, targeting you and all your items. Naturally, the Wizard has a buffed out bonus to Dispel checks which bypasses the CL cap whereas your items are standard items, therefore your items are all now inert for d4 rounds, and your buffs and stored Crafted Contingent Spells (unless also cast at a high CL, in which case it's a probability rather than a certainty) are gone. This means your modified saves have likely tanked, and the Wizard can use the rest of his turn to either clean up, summon aid to clean up, let his familiar clean you up (by turning in to an Aspect of Bahamut or something silly like that) or just play a reactionary game.
Because of this and Wizard Goes First, well-placed contingencies on the part of the Fighter are now required rather than heavily recommended. Have fun.

So yes, three rounds is an exceptionally long combat time, especially when both players have likely obtained an increased number of actions/round, reaction-based triggers like contingencies, and summoned/class-based aid.


In case you weren't sure, I'm actually a supporter of the Fighter. I just acknowledge the need to heavily spec out a Ftr20 and pray that the Wizard's lazily put together.

[Foeofthelance]

And then the Wizard gets tired of dealing with you, Mazes you (huzzah no-save You Leave The Fight!) and sets a Prismatic Wall to cover your space for when you return.

Maze is, admittedly, a very long winded delay in the fight. But either the wizard flees, admitting defeat, or waits around for the fighter to get back, at which point the fight resumes.

Prismatic wall requires saves for all its effects, the first three of which are reflex saves. Ring of Evasion and a passed reflex save means the Fighter is fine.

As promised, here's the fighter, built via 28 point buy. He should, reasonably, be able to save most of the time against a level 20 wizard with up to 40 int.

Notes:

-Huge heavy crossbow to bypass windwall
-Expected DC of a 20 Wizard with 40 Int is 35 for a 9th level spell with Spell Focus. Lowest saves are a 32, meaning a save on a 3 or higher. Feel free to discuss ways to increase either DCs or saves.
- Dust of Disappearance cannot be beaten by See Invisibility. At the same time, I need to figure out a way to See Invisibility, aside from rerolling with Blind Fight.
- Ioun Stone absorbs 20 levels of spells level 4 or under
- Regains HP equal to level of spell saved against
- Combat: Quick draw to crossbow, main attack, rapid shot attack, speed weapon attack, move action to reload for next main attack, quick draw back to spellstriking sword and apply bonus to saves.
- Freedom armor prevent paralysis and slow
-Touch AC is 20 (10 base, 8 dex, +1 Dodge, +1 Insight from the second ioun stone). Probably needs improvement.

Screwball, the Fighter Who Wouldn’t Listen
Human Fighter Level 20
AC 22
HP 255
Initiative +23

Strength 16 +3
Dexterity 32 +11
Constitution 24 +7
Intelligence 15 +2
Wisdom 24 +7
Charisma 13 +1

Saves
Fortitude 36 Reflex 32 Will 32

Feats
Human: Improved Initiative
Level 1: Improved Initiative
Fighter 1: Improved Initiative
Fighter 2: Lightning Reflexes
Level 3: Great Fortitude
Fighter 4: Iron Will
Fighter 6: Weapon Specialization: (Heavy Crossbow)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy crossbow)
Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy Crossbow)
Level 9: Greater Weapon Specialization (Heavy Crossbow)
Fighter 10: Point Blank Shot
Level 12: Rapid Shot
Fighter 12: Quick Draw
Fighter 14: Endurance
Level 15: Diehard
Fighter 16: Combat Expertise
Level 18: Dodge
Fighter 18: Mobility
Fighter 20: Whirlwind Attack

Items:

+1 Quick Loading Magebane Huge Heavy Crossbow of Speed Dispel – 228,000 (32 lbs., darkwood, x10
hp/inch thick)
+19/+19/+19, 3d8+2d6+7, 19/20x2, Dispel attempt at +13/hit

6 +5 tomes , 1 each state, 153,000 (inherent)
+5 Lucky Bracers – 50,000 (luck)
+5 Amulet of Will, Ring of Reflex, and Cloak of Fortitude -75,000 (resistance)
+5 Belt of Constitution, Boots of Dexterity, and Helm of Wisdom -75,000 (enhancement)
+5 Spellstriking Greatsword -72,000 (enhancement)
+1 Magic Absorbing Armor of Freedom – 46,000
Ring of Evasion -25,000
2 Dust of Disappearance -7,000
Dusty Rose Iounstone – 5,000 (insight)
Pale Lavendar Iounstone – 20,000
Inightful Goggles – 8,000 (+2 will insight bonus)
4 Potions of cure serious wounds – 3,000
Masterwork and item costs – 2000 (300 sword, 300 crossbow, 320 darkwood, 300 armor, rest for item costs)


Please check my math or throw in suggestions. As far as I know, Improved Initiative stacks with itself, since its an untyped bonus. I also cut the True Strike ability from the bow since it seemed the most controversial. Bonuses are typed out to ensure lack of overlap.

[Signmaker]

Screwball, the Fighter Who Wouldn’t Listen


If you're going Core, my Chain Dispel comment doesn't really apply (neither does the Go First comment). However, you can't Fly.

If the Wizard goes first (and has pretty much as many opportunities to as a Fighter does in Core), the first thing he's doing is getting out of range (optional) and summoning a squadron of creatures via Time Stop + Summon Monster, while also locking down problem equipment with Dispels. You....don't have a counter to that, from what I am able to read.

And Improved Initiative does not.

[Tael]

Apart from the fact that Forcecage + Cloudkill = gg, How the hell did you get the saves that high? Your will save should be like +15, not +32.

[tyckspoon]

t
- Combat: Quick draw to crossbow, main attack, rapid shot attack, speed weapon attack, move action to reload for next main attack, quick draw back to spellstriking sword and apply bonus to saves.
- Freedom armor prevent paralysis and slow
-Touch AC is 20 (10 base, 8 dex, +1 Dodge, +1 Insight from the second ioun stone). Probably needs improvement.


You appear to be firing the same crossbow bolt three times here. Getting extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Speed quality doesn't do you any good if you don't have a bolt to actually fire.
Edit: Also you can't actually *wield* a Huge Crossbow, and if you're going to claim you're actually using a Ballista, well, you should be using the Ballista rules- to wit, you take a -4 to hit with it, and it takes 2 full round actions to reload if you're smaller than Large. And Quick-Loading probably doesn't apply to it, because it is not strictly speaking a crossbow.

The accounting/representation on your Tomes is.. weird. How many Tomes of what value were actually applied? A +5 Tome runs 135k apiece; if you actually bought one for each stat, that'd be more than the entire level 20 WBL allotment right there. What's the source on the Lucky for the bracers? I'm not familiar with a property of that name that improves saves.. or is that a custom item, using the doubled cost for switching a bonus to an unusual type (if it is, why did you stop at just Luck?)

Improved Initiative does not stack- in addition to being untyped, bonuses do not stack if they come from the same source. And feats, in particular, don't stack unless the feat says they do.

I would add in a Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 competence to save/skill/attacks) and maybe a Mantle of Second Chances (MIC, 1/day reroll a roll before you know if it was a success or failure. Cheap way to buy a little protection against rolling a 1.)

[Signmaker]

In addition, +5 Cloak of Resistance fulfills your Fort/Ref/Will Resistance needs for....1/3rd of what you're trying to do. Out of Core, a casting of CL20 Superior Resistance provides +6, and is cheaper for the sake of 1 day combat.

[Flickerdart]

I'm still wondering how this Fighter intends to locate his enemy to make good on the shooting, and then actually shoot him. There are so many ways to stop it even without the Wind Wall (Solid Fog, Invisibility, Acid Fog, Fog Cloud, Wall of Iron, Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, summon an Air Elemental or whichever devil casts Wall of Ice) that any given wizard should have one or more of these available. As mentioned, this Fighter has no defense against a simple Forcecage.

[ithildur]

Screwball, the fighter that tried to cheat, failed, and died.

Very appropriate name.

[olentu]

Screwball, the fighter that tried to cheat, failed, and died.

Very appropriate name.

Oh come now that is missing the point of the thread. The fighter would not die, instead he would be tormented by an annoying spoon based monster the wizard sent for fun since the fighter is no big threat.

[TehLivingDeath]

EDIT: And since when was three rounds a long time in combat?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but three rounds is a freaking eternity when a Wizard is involved. Consider Time Stop, summoned minions and all sorts of things he can do to rape the action economy, a competent Wizard would at the very least incapacitate (if not outright destroy) you in round one, spend the 2nd round uttering his BBEG winning speach and finish the fight in the 3rd.

[Radar]

Another thing worth mentioning in any Fighter vs. Wizard debate is that, if a Fighter fighting with WBL instead of his class features is still a Fighter, then he is no stronger then the Commoner due to The Cube - a 13th level version was competing effectively in the Test of Spite as far as I know.

[Calmar]

They are guidelines. Also, even if they were rules, True Strike is not something you can add like that. To determine the cost of a custom item, you first compare it to the existing items, and a +20 bonus to attack would make it an Epic item.

You shouldn't allow that. But then, it's just another form of min-maxing according to the written rules.

[ScionoftheVoid]

You shouldn't allow that. But then, it's just another form of min-maxing according to the written rules.

Written guidelines. Custom items must explicitly be allowed by the DM, and if the assumed answer is "yes" then the Wizard can have similarly rediculous things, putting you back to square one (or, since it's a Fighter against a high-level caster, square -237).

[Greenish]

whichever devil casts Wall of IceThat would be Ice Devil (or Gelugon), appropriately enough. :smallamused:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but three rounds is a freaking eternity when a Wizard is involved.I do believe that has been mentioned.

[Claudius Maximus]

So what are we trying to prove again? That a wizard can be beat, ever, by a fighter? I guess that can happen, sure. That the fighter is a legitimate class to play in a game alongside wizards? It is, if the wizard isn't optimized to the point of invalidating the fighter. That the classes are equally useful or equally powerful? I really don't think that's the case.

I just want to know what we're arguing.

[The Glyphstone]

So what are we trying to prove again? That a wizard can be beat, ever, by a fighter? I guess that can happen, sure. That the fighter is a legitimate class to play in a game alongside wizards? It is, if the wizard isn't optimized to the point of invalidating the fighter. That the classes are equally useful or equally powerful? I really don't think that's the case.

I just want to know what we're arguing.

That someone is wrong on the internet, effectively. Not much more to it than that.

[Claudius Maximus]

Dang, and I was sure this thread would solve the argument forever.

[Aharon]

Actually, the video reminded me of highly optimized builds in NWN2. Lacking the uber options (no Timestop, weaksauce summoning and polymorphing, nearly no SR:no, Saving Throw: no spells), these battles took like 10 minutes to resolve.

Also, I think spoon guy is a Tiefling Demi-Lich Fighter 20 (Prereq for Demi-Lich is Lich, Prereq for Lich is Craft Wondrous Item and CL 11, Tiefling has a CL because of his spell-likes.)

[Bayar]

Also, I think spoon guy is a Tiefling Demi-Lich Fighter 20 (Prereq for Demi-Lich is Lich, Prereq for Lich is Craft Wondrous Item and CL 11, Tiefling has a CL because of his spell-likes.)

So, spoon guy was a level 11 ECL 12 tiefling fighter when he turned into a lich, becoming an ECL 16 character with 11 levels of fighter. He does not qualify for the Demi-lich template since only wizard, cleric or sorcerer liches can craft the soul gems.

Nice try though.

Edit: nice try as in good idea of using tiefling to qualify for craft wondrous item, never thought of that. No offense intended.

[Foeofthelance]

So what are we trying to prove again? That a wizard can be beat, ever, by a fighter? I guess that can happen, sure. That the fighter is a legitimate class to play in a game alongside wizards? It is, if the wizard isn't optimized to the point of invalidating the fighter. That the classes are equally useful or equally powerful? I really don't think that's the case.

I just want to know what we're arguing.

No, I was looking for silly negations to common wizard spells, like using heavy items to beat Shatter and over-sized weapons to beat Wind Wall. This is based on the idea that the optimized wizard is just that: an optimized wizard, with a fairly predictable roster of spells and abilities. Some of those fairly predictable spells have not quite as predictable limitations, and I was looking for suggestions on how to work those exploits. Instead I got, "OMG, wizards rule, fighters drool, don't even bother."

Seriously, if the fighter really wanted to just laugh, a Antimagic Field Amulet would cost a whopping 360,000 gp, a little less than half of his available funds. Of course, if the fighter is walking around with that then he doesn't need to worry about spending money on magical weapons and the like, since they'll be just as useless as the majority wizard's spells. The wizard can't dispel it, and most of the spells that will ignore it are inanimate walls that the fighter just waits until they expire. Then the wizard gets bored, teleports home, and you end up with a null game scenario. And any character can pull it off, because items are more broken than wizards.

What I do find is odd is that in a game that involves Pun-Pun, Batman wizards who take infinite turns preparing, and CoDzilla, people think a True Strike trigger weapon is broken, when the wizard can do it using spells.


You appear to be firing the same crossbow bolt three times here. Getting extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Speed quality doesn't do you any good if you don't have a bolt to actually fire.
Edit: Also you can't actually *wield* a Huge Crossbow, and if you're going to claim you're actually using a Ballista, well, you should be using the Ballista rules- to wit, you take a -4 to hit with it, and it takes 2 full round actions to reload if you're smaller than Large. And Quick-Loading probably doesn't apply to it, because it is not strictly speaking a crossbow.

The accounting/representation on your Tomes is.. weird. How many Tomes of what value were actually applied? A +5 Tome runs 135k apiece; if you actually bought one for each stat, that'd be more than the entire level 20 WBL allotment right there. What's the source on the Lucky for the bracers? I'm not familiar with a property of that name that improves saves.. or is that a custom item, using the doubled cost for switching a bonus to an unusual type (if it is, why did you stop at just Luck?)

Improved Initiative does not stack- in addition to being untyped, bonuses do not stack if they come from the same source. And feats, in particular, don't stack unless the feat says they do.

I would add in a Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 competence to save/skill/attacks) and maybe a Mantle of Second Chances (MIC, 1/day reroll a roll before you know if it was a success or failure. Cheap way to buy a little protection against rolling a 1.)

That's actually what I was mostly checking for. I haven't built a 3.x character in a looooong time, and knew I was going to screw things up. The idea is more to get other suggestions and replacement effects like the Pale Green Ioun stone. I know the character sucks and has flaws, but putting it out there gets it more and more fixed.

-On the ballista and the abilities - the Speed ability and Quick Load abilities are magic based. The description for a ballista describes it as a "Huge Heavy crossbow", so they should be applicable. Speed and Rapid Shot just say, "You get an extra attack with a ranged weapon", so I figured that included reloading it. (Rapid shot also mentions it stacks with magically gained attacks, they all just get the -2 penalty.)
- I did count the -4 to hit. The way it stacks up is +20 fighter, +2 feats, +1 enhancement, +2 magebane, -4 size, -2 Rapid shot, for a total of 19.
-Luck comes from the DMG, there's a "Luck sword" that uses the bonus, and it gets referred to again in a footnote for the magic items cost tables.
- +5 tomes I saw at 25k a piece. In that case I probably misread the table.
-Improved initiative, wasn't sure. Replace two of them with Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot to ignore most concealment.

[AstralFire]

Breaking the game more does not unbreak a game.

Also, even I know how to optimize a wizard to deal with a walking anti-magic field.

Fly. Conjuration spell at the Fighter. Game end.

[Tael]

No, I was looking for silly negations to common wizard spells, like using heavy items to beat Shatter and over-sized weapons to beat Wind Wall. This is based on the idea that the optimized wizard is just that: an optimized wizard, with a fairly predictable roster of spells and abilities. Some of those fairly predictable spells have not quite as predictable limitations, and I was looking for suggestions on how to work those exploits. Instead I got, "OMG, wizards rule, fighters drool, don't even bother."

Unfortunately, it's very hard to beat spells. The only way I've seen it done successfully was through UMD and a ridiculously good knowledge of the awesome magic items in D&D.


Seriously, if the fighter really wanted to just laugh, a Antimagic Field Amulet would cost a whopping 360,000 gp, a little less than half of his available funds. Of course, if the fighter is walking around with that then he doesn't need to worry about spending money on magical weapons and the like, since they'll be just as useless as the majority wizard's spells. The wizard can't dispel it, and most of the spells that will ignore it are inanimate walls that the fighter just waits until they expire. Then the wizard gets bored, teleports home, and you end up with a null game scenario. And any character can pull it off, because items are more broken than wizards.
If by 'get bored and teleport home' you mean 'cast any instantaneous conjuration like Orb of Acid and nuke the helpless fighter while you fly above him', then yes, an Antimagic Field Amulet will totally let you beat a wizard.



What I do find is odd is that in a game that involves Pun-Pun, Batman wizards who take infinite turns preparing, and CoDzilla, people think a True Strike trigger weapon is broken, when the wizard can do it using spells.
Because that kind of TO stuff doesn't happen in real games, and the magic item proposed doesn't even make any sense. Creating custom item != Ridiculously high optimization.

[Foeofthelance]

Because that kind of TO stuff doesn't happen in real games, and the magic item proposed doesn't even make any sense. Creating custom item != Ridiculously high optimization.

The "wizard" proposed in this thread has apparently spent a month or more casting, crafting, and stacking spells and contingencies. This is, I assume, what you mean by "ridiculously high optimization."

The custom item, by comparison, is just a relatively cheap way to inflate the one "stat" a fighter relies on the most, his attack score. You yourself say its not even "Ridiculously high optimization". Explain then how its any worse a thought exercise than what the proposed wizard is doing?

[Tael]

The "wizard" proposed in this thread has apparently spent a month or more casting, crafting, and stacking spells and contingencies. This is, I assume, what you mean by "ridiculously high optimization."
Um, what? A wizard might have a few contingencies, maybe some crafted items, but what is this specific wizard that we are talking about?



The custom item, by comparison, is just a relatively cheap way to inflate the one "stat" a fighter relies on the most, his attack score. You yourself say its not even "Ridiculously high optimization". Explain then how its any worse a thought exercise than what the proposed wizard is doing?

It's different because a wizard is just using his actual, by the book class features effectively. The fighter however, is making **** up that the DM has to approve, which he won't because 1. The proposed item makes no sense and 2. The item is far better than any equivalent cost item.

[Yukitsu]

The "wizard" proposed in this thread has apparently spent a month or more casting, crafting, and stacking spells and contingencies. This is, I assume, what you mean by "ridiculously high optimization."

The custom item, by comparison, is just a relatively cheap way to inflate the one "stat" a fighter relies on the most, his attack score. You yourself say its not even "Ridiculously high optimization". Explain then how its any worse a thought exercise than what the proposed wizard is doing?

It's been stated rather repeatedly that an item with a constant, non-activated effect will use the math for the bonus over the spell. 20 hit is 20X20, 400x1000, 400,000 x epic multiplier, 4 million GP. It's in old cust-serv answers and a part of the magic item compendium.

If I were to arena this sort of match again, I'd let it slide though, as it doesn't matter how high your to hit modifier is.

[Foeofthelance]

Um, what? A wizard might have a few contingencies, maybe some crafted items, but what is this specific wizard that we are talking about?


I used the quotation marks because so far no one has posted one to analyze. Instead they've simply listed spell combination after spell combination. From what I've found trying to research even half of them, an "optimized" wizard would have somewhere around 20 contingencies planned. (I think that's the maximum, though I could be wrong. I don't have nearly any of the splat books most of these things are out of, so feel free to correct me if I am.) As I understand it, to have the contingency created, the wizard needs both the contingency spell, the spell to be cast, and probably a couple of other things. Coupled with the level increases from metamagic feats, you're looking at a week, week and a half minimum to prepare all of them, then another day to memorize the spells used during the fight.

Granted, I'm beginning to suspect that everyone has a different idea of what their optimized wizard would be. There would probably be multiple over laps, I'm sure, but I'm curious as to what the differences would be.

[AstralFire]

While Schrodinger's Wizard is not imagined, it's also a distractor; ultimately, the wizard has the option of hedging his bets on a number of defenses that are very likely to work and an offense that is almost certain to work, versus the Fighter who can only plan on 'it might work,' with almost none of these solutions resulting from class features.

Anti-magic amulet is something every optimizer wizard would be equipped to handle properly. It was just as false a hope in 3.0 core as it is in 3.5 expanded.

[Flickerdart]

Why would a counter Wizard build need to be provided? It doesn't really matter what the Wizard's build is. So long as he can cast any one of the long list of win spells provided, he's good to go, without even having to spend a dime or allocate a stat point.

I'm not sure why casting contingency is supposed to take weeks - it takes ten minutes to cast and lasts 1 day per caster level. Similarly, your mention of metamagic doesn't make any sense at all. With a simple contingent Celerity on "I am attacked and then do not say "roflcopter" immediately" that takes ten minutes and two mid-level slots to put up and lasts twenty or more days, the Wizard's preparations are done. Anything else, like Planar Binding some minions, is icing on the cake and can be done on the same day. The Wizard can then go out (on that selfsame day) and kill four of the ridiculous ballista or antmagic fighters and still have half his spells left over.

[Foeofthelance]

I'm not sure why casting contingency is supposed to take weeks - it takes ten minutes to cast and lasts 1 day per caster level. Similarly, your mention of metamagic doesn't make any sense at all. With a simple contingent Celerity on "I am attacked and then do not say "roflcopter" immediately" that takes ten minutes and two mid-level slots to put up and lasts twenty or more days, the Wizard's preparations are done. Anything else, like Planar Binding some minions, is icing on the cake and can be done on the same day. The Wizard can then go out (on that selfsame day) and kill four of the ridiculous ballista or antmagic fighters and still have half his spells left over.

People were talking about having multiple contingencies, via a variety of spells and actions. Its the same reason I was curious about the wizard builds, not to see how they beat the fighter, but the different plots individuals craft.

[tyckspoon]

People were talking about having multiple contingencies, via a variety of spells and actions. Its the same reason I was curious about the wizard builds, not to see how they beat the fighter, but the different plots individuals craft.

Multiple Contingencies, if referring to the actual if-then triggered spells, would be the result of the Craft Contingent Spell feat. It lets you make contingent spells as if they were magic items, up to a limit of 1/HD of the subject they're being crafted on. Yup. They can be hung on other people with the feat. So.. if it exists, you can conceivably just buy 20 counter-contingencies for your Fighter. I prefer to ignore it, as it does really really silly things to the game (and means that the only really sensible option for starting an arena fight is a Disjunction to blow away all the Contingencies. And then another one because the first one you trip will be the one that specifically counterspells your Disjunction.)

[Foeofthelance]

Multiple Contingencies, if referring to the actual if-then triggered spells, would be the result of the Craft Contingent Spell feat. It lets you make contingent spells as if they were magic items, up to a limit of 1/HD of the subject they're being crafted on. Yup. They can be hung on other people with the feat. So.. if it exists, you can conceivably just buy 20 counter-contingencies for your Fighter. I prefer to ignore it, as it does really really silly things to the game (and means that the only really sensible option for starting an arena fight is a Disjunction to blow away all the Contingencies. And then another one because the first one you trip will be the one that specifically counterspells your Disjunction.)

And that's what I was basing the time frame off of.

[Yukitsu]

Those take as much time to get as any other wealth per level.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm pretty sure you're pretty much occupied for several days for each of them.

But why should a month spent getting spells together be a problem?

[Foeofthelance]

I'm pretty sure you're pretty much occupied for several days for each of them.

But why should a month spent getting spells together be a problem?

Not a problem, but a matter of scope. Give a wizard his daily lists, and he can make a few safe bets on how to protect himself and win the fight. Give him the month, and I don't doubt someone would figure out how to knock of Tiamat as a free action before initiative is even rolled.

[Endarire]

A Core 3.5 Wizard can have a caster level of 47 by level 16.

I assume Human Diviner5/Red Wizard of Thay10/Archmage1 with an Orange Ioun Stone. Use Circle Magic to set your CL to 47 and add the CL boosts from Red Wizard, Archmage, and the Ioun Stone.

You auto-win any CL-related checks in core, except against similar builds.

[Foeofthelance]

A Core 3.5 Wizard can have a caster level of 47 by level 16.

I assume Human Diviner5/Red Wizard of Thay10/Archmage1 with an Orange Ioun Stone. Use Circle Magic to set your CL to 47 and add the CL boosts from Red Wizard, Archmage, and the Ioun Stone.

You auto-win any CL-related checks in core, except against similar builds.

Don't these arguments normally rely on straight fighter versus straight wizard though?

[Endarire]

It's reasonable, even within a core-only environment, for an optimized Wizard to win at CL checks except against the same build.

If allowed, a Wizard worth his spells can turn a FighterX- even one of higher level- into a hood ornament. You can replace FighterX with most classes.

[Acanous]

Honestly, the only melee class I know of that can fare well against wizards in the high end is Barbarian.
Straight barbarian with the right feat selection, using the totem rules to optimize, with an antimagic field tattoo riding a magical beast of some kind. Prefferably something with Scent and the ability to fly.
Not that the critter will actually engage in combat, per say, just note where the wizard is and get the barbarian close enough to shock trooper leap attack the wizard for 600 damage. Activating the tattoo can be done as part of the move (Leap) action, and would set off the wizard's "If I come into contact with an anti-magic field" contingancy right there. If for some strange reason he had none, then he just dies to the damage.

Things get crazier if you allow prestige classes, on both ends.. but Barbarians generally have the best chances against a wizard.

[Killer Angel]

Didn't the Playground already do a test of a bunch of one on one battles of 13th level Wizards versus 20th level Fighters? And the only Fighter that won use cc UMD and every bit of his WBL specifically to kill a Wizard? All I remember was that it was pretty definitive that Wizards are ridiculously powerful.

Not exactly, but close.
Wizard 13 Vs Fighter 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1209321)
The WBL difference had some chance to beat the wizard (almost 1 on 3 in those matches), but it can.
(note that one of the encounter won by the wiz., took 18 pages, so it wasn't an easy walk)

[DragonOfUndeath]

Not exactly, but close.
Wizard 13 Vs Fighter 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1209321)
The WBL difference had some chance to beat the wizard (almost 1 on 3 in those matches), but it can.
(note that one of the encounter won by the wiz., took 18 pages, so it wasn't an easy walk)

That link didn't work

[tcrudisi]

That link didn't work

That's because you are a Fighter and not a Wizard. :smallbiggrin:

[Signmaker]

Oh wow, I forgot I did that fight. Such a disorganized mess, I was.

[Killer Angel]

That link didn't work

mmm... let's try this way.

Match 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129819&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (wiz. win)
Match 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130020&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (fighter win)
Match 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130067&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (Wiz. player quit)
Match 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130466&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (fighter's player quit)
Match 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130622&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (Fighter surrender)
Match 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130678&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (tie?)
Match 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131355&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (wiz. win)
Match 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130429&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (wiz. win after 18 pages)

So yeah, not counting abandon: Fighter wins 1, Wizard wins 4
With abandon: Fighter wins 2, Wizard wins 5

[Aharon]

@Bayar
That only wizards, sorcerers or clerics can do it is fluff. The actual rules for creating the phylactery are


An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force.[...]

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
[...]

The casting spells thing is a problem, but that can be solved via the Magical Training feat.

[Bayar]

@Bayar
That only wizards, sorcerers or clerics can do it is fluff. The actual rules for creating the phylactery are


The casting spells thing is a problem, but that can be solved via the Magical Training feat.

I was reffering to soul gems, not phylactery.

[The Glyphstone]

Helping!


Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Each soul gem costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.


Relevant quote. So the theoretical tiefling can (if spell-like abilities count as spells) make a phylactery and become a Lich, but cannot breach the barrier into becoming a demilich...and that's be silly anyways, because the guy with the spoon clearly has an entire body, so he can't be a demilich.

[Aharon]

Huh, hadn't seen that. I conceed, then.

(I wanted it for the Magic Immunity. If the other guy is the wizard, there must be a reason why nothing he does works => Demi-Lich has very extensive magic immunity that was never errata'd).

The not having a body part was something I intended to work on later :smallsmile:

@"if spell-like abilities count as spells"
Well, they don't, but there's a feat in FRCS that gives you 3 cantrips. So the theoretical tiefling fulfills both conditions. He can cast spells (3 cantrips) and has a caster level of 11 or higher (for his spell-likes). It's obviously against RAI, but I thought it was a fun idea.

[Yukitsu]

mmm... let's try this way.

Match 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129819&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (wiz. win)
Match 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130020&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (fighter win)
Match 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130067&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (Wiz. player quit)
Match 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130466&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (fighter's player quit)
Match 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130622&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (Fighter surrender)
Match 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130678&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (tie?)
Match 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131355&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (wiz. win)
Match 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130429&highlight=Wizard+Fighter) (wiz. win after 18 pages)

So yeah, not counting abandon: Fighter wins 1, Wizard wins 4
With abandon: Fighter wins 2, Wizard wins 5

An aside for this, I've been itching to get some more of those matches in. :p I'm only 2 for 2 so far.

[Cero Oscura]

I'm probably going to regret this...

First off, I'm not trying to prove that fighters are better. I think that ship sailed long ago. I may also be late to the party in thinking these things and posing these two questions as I don't post on here very often, and may be going over old ground. In that case, just bear with me and educate a poor old fool.

I've played in several different D&D campaigns over the years and with several different DMs. I've even DMed a couple myself, though that number is laughably small. I've played alongside numerous wizards. They did none of these things. No wizard I've played next to was willing to have multiple contingencies active, they had no home plane in which time flowed to their whims from which only their astral forms ever ventured forth. They had no wealth of initiative breakers, no nerveskitters or lucky starts or whatever. They did not use obscure feats to get CL 47. The only place I've encountered such blatant optimization is here, in these kinds of boards.

I mean, they had most of the stuff you guys praise so much. Invisibility, teleporting/DD, flying around, glitterdust, grease, empowered maximized rays of enfeeblement, solid fogs. They weren't just blasters, although the occasional fireball or disintegrate did pop up. They utilized save or dies (or no saves) when the situation called for it, and a decent amount of the time the target made the relevant save. They were tough, but I never felt overshadowed by any of them.

So I guess what I'm asking is "is this really a problem?" Do your groups do things like this in a normal campaign alongside kid brothers or new players who wanted to be a big tough fighter? Melee is, in my opinion, a far simpler type of class, good for the inexperienced.

An old adage I've heard that marginally applies here is that an object is only worth what someone will give you for it, no matter what other source of value it may have. Then, wouldn't it follow that the overpoweredness (long word) of a wizard is only a problem if the majority of regular players do things like this with it? If so, then why debate? It would never realistically come up.

Plus, what roleplaying justifications do you have for your wizard being so nervous? What horrible organization must be hunting him for him to feel the need for 20 contingencies to pop every time someone sneezes, or so many ways to armor himself up for combat so thoroughly? Any DM I've played for would want a reasoning behind such preparation. This character would have to be nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I guess I'm stealing Yahtzee's line when I say "You can, but why would you want to?"

[Flickerdart]

The wizard is an adventurer, routinely laying his life on the line as part of his job. I should think that's all the reason he needs to make sure that he doesn't die to things that are in his power to prevent.

[Tael]

lots of stuff

Indeed, however, in my experience, even decently optimized (read, not even close to most of the stuff we're talking about here) Wizards and Druids can single-handedly take most of the encounters at high levels, while the fighters just pling away pathetically or are shut down completely. I could point you the tier system, or to these arena fights, or to campaign journals and people requesting help to improve their characters because they feel they don't contribute enough. But you've heard this all before, and if it's not an issue for you then great, but it is an issue for a lot of people. I know one group who now plays 4th even though they mostly prefer 3.5 because it is more balanced, I have had to ask players to tone down their characters, etc, etc.

[AstralFire]

I'm probably going to regret this...

First off, I'm not trying to prove that fighters are better. I think that ship sailed long ago. I may also be late to the party in thinking these things and posing these two questions as I don't post on here very often, and may be going over old ground. In that case, just bear with me and educate a poor old fool.

I've played in several different D&D campaigns over the years and with several different DMs. I've even DMed a couple myself, though that number is laughably small. I've played alongside numerous wizards. They did none of these things. No wizard I've played next to was willing to have multiple contingencies active, they had no home plane in which time flowed to their whims from which only their astral forms ever ventured forth. They had no wealth of initiative breakers, no nerveskitters or lucky starts or whatever. They did not use obscure feats to get CL 47. The only place I've encountered such blatant optimization is here, in these kinds of boards.

I mean, they had most of the stuff you guys praise so much. Invisibility, teleporting/DD, flying around, glitterdust, grease, empowered maximized rays of enfeeblement, solid fogs. They weren't just blasters, although the occasional fireball or disintegrate did pop up. They utilized save or dies (or no saves) when the situation called for it, and a decent amount of the time the target made the relevant save. They were tough, but I never felt overshadowed by any of them.

So I guess what I'm asking is "is this really a problem?" Do your groups do things like this in a normal campaign alongside kid brothers or new players who wanted to be a big tough fighter? Melee is, in my opinion, a far simpler type of class, good for the inexperienced.

An old adage I've heard that marginally applies here is that an object is only worth what someone will give you for it, no matter what other source of value it may have. Then, wouldn't it follow that the overpoweredness (long word) of a wizard is only a problem if the majority of regular players do things like this with it? If so, then why debate? It would never realistically come up.

Plus, what roleplaying justifications do you have for your wizard being so nervous? What horrible organization must be hunting him for him to feel the need for 20 contingencies to pop every time someone sneezes, or so many ways to armor himself up for combat so thoroughly? Any DM I've played for would want a reasoning behind such preparation. This character would have to be nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I guess I'm stealing Yahtzee's line when I say "You can, but why would you want to?"

I agree with just about all of your points, actually; I think a more pressing issue than the actual balance tends to be the independent potency of an actual character. Related, but not identical, concepts. I find dissatisfaction grows more out of a player not being able to do X than that another player can do X better. This is, I think, why more high-proficiency groups ultimately prefer to add material such as Tome of Battle rather than remove core material in the name of battle.

Personally speaking, I'm usually okay with knowing the wizard can open the gates of hell if I'm allowed to do cool acrobatic tricks rather than feeling like the same character I was at level 1, only hurts more harder.

[katrex]

I've seen my share of arena battles, and let me just say that I'm pretty sure that even in a situation where casters have a giant list of banned tactics, they can beat martial characters almost every time. I consider myself a decent optimizer, but when I was once given the opportunity to build three 20th level fighters with futuristic weapons to fight one 20th level core wizard, I gave up because there was no way I could possibly win.

You're not doing it rite
Goliath,Spiked chain, mageslayer feat, monkey grip, ring of enlarge person peirce magical protection and concealment improved bullrush and knockback. . Wizard casts spell you get atack of opertunity, wizard has to make a dc crazy concentration check.
Thats without going ocult slayer and getting spellturning. Thats without antimagic feild and constantly knocking him back in to it. That's without pounce and being able to kill him in one round.
Like I said. You're not doing it right.

[true_shinken]

You're not doing it rite
Goliath,Spiked chain, mageslayer feat, monkey grip, ring of enlarge person peirce magical protection and concealment improved bullrush and knockback. . Wizard casts spell you get atack of opertunity, wizard has to make a dc crazy concentration check.
Thats without going ocult slayer and getting spellturning. Thats without antimagic feild and constantly knocking him back in to it. That's without pounce and being able to kill him in one round.
Like I said. You're not doing it right.

You forgot one thing: Quickened Spells. They allow no attacks of opportunity. No, not even then.
You forgot another thing: contingent spells.
Contingent or Quickened Dimension Door means all melee optimization goes down the drain, sadly.

[katrex]

This depends. I was assuming an arena fight, thus no prebuffs. If the fighter goes first he wins. If the wizard goes first he'll win. IF he uses the right spell.

In a more general setting. Well just wait till the wizard runs out of spells. Or fight him before he's prepared his spells. Or destroy his spell books then fight him tommorow.
Remember a fighter is ALWAYS good. A wizard is useless without spells.

[Greenish]

You're not doing it rite
Goliath,Spiked chain, mageslayer feat, monkey grip, ring of enlarge person peirce magical protection and concealment improved bullrush and knockback.Monkey grip is just a trap that makes you worse at fighting. Enlarge Person doesn't work on a goliath.

[true_shinken]

This depends. I was assuming an arena fight, thus no prebuffs. If the fighter goes first he wins. If the wizard goes first he'll win. IF he uses the right spell.

In a more general setting. Well just wait till the wizard runs out of spells. Or fight him before he's prepared his spells. Or destroy his spell books then fight him tommorow.
Remember a fighter is ALWAYS good. A wizard is useless without spells.

There is no if. Celerity is a 4th level spell. The wizard goes first. Period.
And a Fighter is also useless without hit points, weapons and armor.

[Flickerdart]

Monkey grip is just a trap that makes you worse at fighting. Enlarge Person doesn't work on a goliath.
Not to mention that Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Powerful Build.

[Claudius Maximus]

You're not doing it rite
Goliath,Spiked chain, mageslayer feat, monkey grip, ring of enlarge person peirce magical protection and concealment improved bullrush and knockback. . Wizard casts spell you get atack of opertunity, wizard has to make a dc crazy concentration check.
Thats without going ocult slayer and getting spellturning. Thats without antimagic feild and constantly knocking him back in to it. That's without pounce and being able to kill him in one round.
Like I said. You're not doing it right.

The duel in question was core only, but to answer your non-core tactics with my own, which I guarantee will be in effect on an optimized high level non-core wizard (at least one I'd make):

-The wizard is immune to HP damage. He does not care if you hit him.

-He will not stay in an Antimagic Field for more than zero rounds.

-He can see your Spell Turning and will adjust tactics to cope with it.

-You are not dispelling him.

-How are you going to engage him, when he has a very large number of ways to control when and where to start a fight and you have almost none on your own? The odds of surprising a high level wizard are very low.