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Incanur
2010-11-27, 12:40 PM
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

This makes me wonder if you can initiate a strike as part of a mounted charge and gain the associated benefits. I searched online but couldn't find anything. What do folks think? Emerald Razor would be fun with Power Attack and a lance.

Greenish
2010-11-27, 12:44 PM
Strikes are either standard actions or full round actions, so you can't combine them with charge. A handful of them contain charge in the strike itself, so those should work.

White Raven also has stances and strikes that add flat damage to charges, and that would get doubled (or tripled with Spirited Charge). Others have boosts that can help.

Adamantrue
2010-11-27, 01:08 PM
I was under the impression that even though you gain the benefits of a Charge, the Character isn't actually the one performing the Charge, so they can't use related abilities (such as Shock Trooper).

Mind you, it isn't unreasonable for a DM to let you get away with it, but from a RAW standpoint, I don't think you can do anything with Charge-related Maneuvers.

Incanur
2010-11-27, 01:37 PM
Strikes are either standard actions or full round actions, so you can't combine them with charge.

You can't cast a spell if your mount charges? I don't see why this would be the case, as you can still cast spells if your mount takes other full round actions like the double move or running.

Elfin
2010-11-27, 01:41 PM
As far as I know, no, you can't combine a strike with a mounted charge. Boosts, Counters, and Stances are the main benefit for a mounted martial adept.

Eldariel
2010-11-27, 08:13 PM
What Greenish said: Any maneuver that involves a charge is a fair game for a mounted charge. Other than that, nope.

AslanCross
2010-11-27, 10:40 PM
You can't cast a spell if your mount charges? I don't see why this would be the case, as you can still cast spells if your mount takes other full round actions like the double move or running.

By default, maneuvers cannot be performed with other special attacks, as most of them are performed as a standard action. Ergo, if I'm charging on foot, I can't perform Emerald Razor with it either. This spills over to charging. It's not a restriction imposed by mounted charging; it's a restriction imposed by martial maneuvers.

The spellcasting issue is clarified here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a).





Cast a Spell: You can cast a spell with a casting time of one standard action or less normally if your mount makes a single move. You can cast the spell either before or after your mount moves, and the rules assume your mount is stationary when you cast.
If your mount makes a double move, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running, your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level). In either case, you cast your spell when your mount has completed half its movement for the turn.
Your mount's movement has no effect on how you aim most spells. If the spell requires you to make a ranged attack roll, you take penalties if your mount makes more than a single move, as noted in the section on ranged attacks. If the spell requires you to make a melee attack roll, you're subject to the limitations listed in the section on melee attacks.

Melee Attack: You can make a melee attack from your moving mount. If your mount makes a single move, you make your attack either before or after the movement. If your mount makes a double move, you can't make a melee attack unless you're charging. If your mount runs, you can't make a melee attack at all.


Since the rule doesn't explicitly mention ToB, we can't really say for sure based on this, but ToB's own limitations are pretty cut-and-dry, I'd think.



In addition, you cannot combine special attacks such as sunder or bull rush with strikes, even if you have feats that make such special attacks more potent. However, some strikes enable you to make special attacks as part of their initiation; see the specific maneuver descriptions in chapter 4 for details.

Charging is a special attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)

EDIT: But yeah, I'd rule that if you have a maneuver that involves a charge, you can use it mounted.

Incanur
2010-11-28, 02:53 PM
Thanks. That does clarify it. So you could charge with a touch attack spell but not a maneuver. Weird. :smallannoyed:

Pechvarry
2010-11-28, 03:08 PM
I was under the impression that if your mount moves, you get the charging bonuses despite it not taking your turn. Meaning you should be able to perform standard actions as normal.



When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

I've bolded a couple of interesting points. First: you may only attack once. However, there's no limitation on what kind of actions performed, and you still have your full round of actions. So you could make a standard action attack. You could probably use the full round action attack Fighter ACFs while your mount is charging away.

The second bolded point: you're gaining the penalties and bonuses of charging from horseback. You are not charging. Afterall, your mount is. So no, I don't see what part of the rules states I cannot do a Spirited Charge Diamond Nightmare Blade.

AslanCross
2010-11-28, 06:56 PM
Thanks. That does clarify it. So you could charge with a touch attack spell but not a maneuver. Weird. :smallannoyed:

I think the problem again comes from the ToB's limitation clause, not the core rules on charging.


I was under the impression that if your mount moves, you get the charging bonuses despite it not taking your turn. Meaning you should be able to perform standard actions as normal.

That's a RAI interpretation, not RAW. In reality it's more complicated. The RAW clearly says that the mount acts on the same initiative as the rider (not before or after) and does not make distinctions between their sets of actions. In some ways, the actions are shared (such as movement).

By your reading, the mount can charge (without the PC attacking), the PC can dismount (a free action with a successful Ride check) and then charge on his own. That just doesn't make sense, as cool as it sounds.

WOTC did release a several-part long series of articles clarifying mounts. This is the relevant one. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050215a)



I've bolded a couple of interesting points. First: you may only attack once. However, there's no limitation on what kind of actions performed, and you still have your full round of actions. So you could make a standard action attack. You could probably use the full round action attack Fighter ACFs while your mount is charging away.

I think you missed a part.


When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

The timing issue prevents certain actions from being performed. If your mount moves up to its speed, you can perform certain standard actions when mounted, such as making a single melee attack, casting a spell, or even performing a martial maneuver, just as you can when on foot. The only difference is you're using your mount's speed when movement, and you get a bonus from being on higher ground. However, full round actions are limited when your mount double moves or charges.


The second bolded point: you're gaining the penalties and bonuses of charging from horseback. You are not charging. Afterall, your mount is. So no, I don't see what part of the rules states I cannot do a Spirited Charge Diamond Nightmare Blade.


If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

I really hate to play semantics, but I see it this way: By your reading, a rider on a charging mount is not really charging. If by your reading, the PC is not charging when he is on a charging mount, then that means he never gets to deal double damage with a lance, because his mount is charging while he really isn't. The clause about the bonus only refers to the +2 attack bonus gained from charging.

They are both counted as charging and both gain the benefits from it. With the proper ride checks, a rider on a dire tiger can get in his charge damage from his lance, and direct his dire tiger to pounce (with a ride check), getting the whole range of options a tiger gets from it, and dismount as a free action to avoid getting stuck in the grappling furball (with a ride check). The rule also gives the option of simply having the rider stay put and not attack while directing his mount to attack (again with a ride check), but I don't see why anyone would not take the opportunity to introduce a dozen feet of wood and metal into his target's liver.

And again, for the record, if the core rules on charging are not clear, the ToB rules on maneuvers and special attacks are very clear: Unless a maneuver calls for it, you may not combine maneuvers with special attacks. Charging is a special attack, like disarm, bull rush, grapple, and trip. I've always wanted to be able to mass disarm my foes with Adamantine Hurricane, but alas, the rule does not allow that.

John Campbell
2010-11-28, 09:26 PM
Mounted combat in 3.5 is broken. As in, the rules are internally contradictory and do not work right. That article attempts to address that, but it's not RAW, and not even RAI so much as just making crap up.

Your mount acts on your turn, but its actions are separate from your own. There are explicit rules for things like casting spells and making archery full attacks while your mount is moving, double-moving, or even running, which you would not be able to do if you were somehow sharing actions. (A ranged full attack is a full-round action. You can still make one even if your mount is using its full-round action to run.) It's even possible to make a melee full attack (full-round action) if your mount uses its move action to move only five feet. (It does not have to be a five-foot-step, despite the crap that article made up.) If you've got three levels in Wild Plains Outrider, you can still make that full attack full-round action if your mount uses a move action to move its full single-move. This is all RAW.

When you make a mounted charge, it is your mount performing the charge. The rider takes the penalties of the charge, and has the option of making a melee attack at the end of the charge and so gaining the benefits. This is RAW.

This means that your mount can charge, and you can cast a spell while it's doing it. Or make a ranged full attack. Or use your move action to draw a melee weapon and your standard action to attack with it when your mount finishes its charge. Or, yes, do a lot of fairly nonsensical stuff if you can reliably hit that DC 20 free-action mount/dismount. (I'd assert that it's the free mount/dismount that's the problem there.)

This also means that, e.g., Spirited Charge, by RAW, does nothing, because it's triggered by using the charge action while mounted, and when you make a mounted charge, you are not using the charge action - your mount is. And your mount isn't mounted, so it doesn't benefit from the feat either. Intent is fairly obvious here, but it's not what was written.

And that bit about the double damage from the lance? That one's doubly contradictory, because not only does it rule out ever actually getting the double damage, the rule appears in two places, and in one place, it says you get double damage when using the charge action while mounted, and in the other, the one you quoted, it says that you get it only when charging on a horse. So, assuming it were possible to ever get double lance damage at all, do you get it, by RAW, when mounted on a riding dog? (I'm going with 'yes', on the theory that the mention of horses doesn't actually rule out also getting it with other, unmentioned, mounts, and the other rule then allows it for other mounts.)

Lances are problematic anyway, because they're reach weapons, and typical mounts don't have reach. That means that, after the end of your mount's charge, when you get the option of making that lance attack, your target is very likely inside your reach where you can't hit it, because the mount's charge probably has to be into contact so it can make its attack, without which there is no charge. You can solve this by using Ride-By to end the charge and make your lance attack from 10' past your target... except that Ride-By doesn't work by RAW anyway, because basic geometry and that "must charge to the closest square" rule mean that continuing the line of the charge requires you to charge through the enemy's square, which you can't do.

I'd say that, by RAW, yes, you can make a standard-action maneuver at the end of your mount's charge. Depending on the exact wording of the maneuver, though, it might be reasonable to rule that you don't gain the benefits of the charge on the maneuver, because it's not "making an attack", per se. ("Making an attack", in this case, being using your standard attack action. Though if the maneuver description says that its effect includes making an attack, that logic falls down.)

AslanCross
2010-11-28, 09:36 PM
As I said, even if the mounted combat rules cannot rule out using maneuvers at the end of a charge, it is clear that no special attacks can be made at the same time as a maneuver unless the maneuver calls for it. It has nothing to do with lacking the actions to do so. A maneuver is an exclusive special attack and prevents the execution of any other special attack with the same action.

Pechvarry
2010-11-28, 11:02 PM
I really hate to play semantics, but I see it this way: By your reading, a rider on a charging mount is not really charging. If by your reading, the PC is not charging when he is on a charging mount, then that means he never gets to deal double damage with a lance, because his mount is charging while he really isn't. The clause about the bonus only refers to the +2 attack bonus gained from charging.

Sorry, sir. I feel like this is less semantics and more taking individual words and reading what you want to read.

You gain the benefits and penalties of charging. You are not charging. You get the further benefit of dealing double damage with a lance.

You are right about not being able to use full round actions, though. Good form.

Eldariel
2010-11-29, 12:30 AM
Sorry, sir. I feel like this is less semantics and more taking individual words and reading what you want to read.

You gain the benefits and penalties of charging. You are not charging. You get the further benefit of dealing double damage with a lance.

You are right about not being able to use full round actions, though. Good form.

If your mount isn't allowed to attack at the end of its movement, it cannot be a charge. Just saying. If it's you attacking, then you're the one doing the charge. Charger always has the capacity to attack at the end of a charge, as per Charge-description in the PHB. For my money, you take a Charge action while the mount takes a double move action with the charge limitations simultaneously consuming both full round actions.

Additionally, "Lances and Charge Attacks" states "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge." - if a mounted character wasn't charging, he wouldn't gain any bonus. And "Weapons Readied Against Charge" would mean that a mounted character hit by a readied action from a Spear-type weapon wouldn't take doubled damage since he again wasn't charging.

Pechvarry
2010-11-29, 01:45 AM
If your mount isn't allowed to attack at the end of its movement, it cannot be a charge. Just saying. If it's you attacking, then you're the one doing the charge. Charger always has the capacity to attack at the end of a charge, as per Charge-description in the PHB. For my money, you take a Charge action while the mount takes a double move action with the charge limitations simultaneously consuming both full round actions.

But that's not what's happening. It explicitly saws, RAW, that when your mount moves, you gain the penalties and benefits of a charge attack. It's a specific instance; not a use of the general charge rules.

To me, this is like saying "you gain the effects of Haste" requires you to still use a standard action to gain them, since it's a standard action to cast. Whether or not you're getting it from an item or another caster, etc.