[3.x] Pricing artwork

[reddir]

This is a niche endeavor, but I have a new character for whom it is significant. I figured, maybe there are a few others who might have use for it. Also, those more experienced than I might be able to critique or suggest something to help improve what I have.

I am trying to figure out what the prices for art should be (in PathFinder, but 3.x is close enough). I haven't found any guidance in D&D material, including official and 3rd party. If there are any previous threads, please let me know.

--------------------------

So first, I tried to figure out DC tiers for art, based on normal human limits (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html).

Level 1, unskilled: newb
- Int 10, Craft +0 == +0
- - range 1-20, Take-10 = 10 = Steady progress on DC 10 projects

Level 1, specialist: student
- Int 11, Craft +(1+3), Skill Focus +3, masterwork tools +2 == +9
- - range 10 - 29, Take-10 = 19 = Steady progress on DC 19 projects

Level 3, specialist: typical professional
- Int 11, Craft +(3+3), Skill Focus +3, masterwork tools +2, helper +2 == +13
- - range 14-33, Take-10 = 23 = Steady progress on DC 23 projects
- (+2 if allow Synergy == +15)
- - ( range 16-35, Take-10 = 25 = Steady progress on DC 25 projects

Level 5, specialist: legendary artist
- Int 12, Craft +(5+3), Skill Focus +3, masterwork tools +2, 2 spec helpers +(2*3) == +20
- - range 21-40, Take-10 = 30 = Steady progress on DC 30 projects
- (+2 if allow Synergy == +22)
- - (range 23-42, Take-10 = 32 = Steady progress on DC 32 projects)
- (+4 if allow 2 Synergies == +24)
- - (range 25-44, Take-10 = 34 = Steady progress on DC 34 projects)

--------------------------

Second, I tried to list a price that a real world artist of each caliber might expect in the real world. I fully recognize that real world art is hard to categorize, at least for me. Even ignoring the 'priceless' pieces, art can range from $15 -> $2,000,000+. So, did my best - if you have better suggestions please let me know :smallsmile:
Also, things seemed to go crazy in the 80's, so going to pretend they never happened... :smallwink:

How about these equivalents?
DC 10 = $50
DC 19 = $500
DC 25 = $5,000
DC 30 = $50,000
DC 34 = $500,000
(rounded the numbers to 5*10x, since simple and functional)

The idea is that this is the best work each tier can attempt.
- I think this is good for their 'best' attempt...but seems high for 'typical' work
- perhaps set typical to half this? allowing them to spend 2x time for best?
- during and after times of significant prosperity, the price should probably move up 1 tier, and stay elevated until there is a serious blow to civilization.

--------------------------

Third, I tried to convert these prices to in-game values. I'd once figured US$1 = 1 cp, which seems to work for most of the low-cost items.

{table=head]Talent|DC|Real World Value|Game Value|Production Rate|Completion Time
Unskilled Newb|10|$25(50)|2.5(5) sp|10gp/wk|.25(.5) day
Specialist Student|19|$250(500)|25(50) sp|36gp/wk|.7(1.5) days
Specialist Professional|25|$2,500(5k)|25(50) gp|62gp/wk|4(8) days
Legendary Artist|30|$25k(50k)|250(500) gp|90gp/wk|3(6) weeks
Legendary Artist's Best|34|$250k(500k)|2500(5k)gp|115gp/wk|22(44) weeks
[/table]
(The production rate depends only on DC and skill check.)

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Fourth, I am trying to come up with a random table whereby the artist's rep can rise/fall, along with the price their art commands. (this is still wip)

Based on Skill:Perform, bringing in the functionality of 'agents'.
(If the artist's Craft check was below 20, subtract the difference2 from the result)

-20%: serious faux pas
-5% @ for next 3 checks: one aspect of the artist's work is out of favor (GM's choice)
+5% @ for next 3 checks: one aspect of the artist'w work is in favor (GM's choice)
+20%: revered critic's or royal favor

(price mods from aspects are tracked for each individual aspect and fully stack)

--------------------------

How does all that look?

Suggestions welcome :smallsmile:

(ps I'd previously posted on another forum but didn't get much feedback)

[MythMage]

Not a bad starting point, but I'm not a fan of the irregular value advancement. Considering that an average person can't create a $50 piece of art just by trying once without pressure, I think you should drop the DC 10 result lower (probably in the $<10 range, i.e. people are rarely willing to pay money at all, and one certainly can't make a living at it). I would also suggest trying for a smoother curve. Assume the million-dollar range (the priciest things in the world) requires a very good roll, and it becomes a bit more manageable. Also, you need to factor in the fact that innate value can confuse your numbers. Is this for the end result item crafted regardless of how nice of materials you use, or is this only the value you are creating/adding to the raw materials' worth?

[reddir]

I'd prefer a clear scaling to the DCs, but if we are basing them on expected skill levels this seems to be the proper fit. Its not the smooth curve we'd both prefer, but I don't want to sacrifice fitting with the mechanics of the game.

Re: avg person making $50 art...
My suggestion was to make that be the 'best' a person could do, with $25 being typical - do you think this would still be too much?
Remember, the cost of materials being used in the creation is 1/3 the final price.

My intention was to formulate quality, and determine price based on that quality. I was assuming the RAW rules for crafting, including the 1/3 materials cost, were in effect.
Now that you bring it up, perhaps there should be modifiers based on using material that costs more or less than expected? Having it affect the DC of the creation might be the simplest way to go (and still reflect the multiplier affect of skillful use). Any thoughts on how to implement this?

Re: "Assume the million-dollar range (the priciest things in the world)..."
I am not that familiar with the art world. Should I set the top tier at $1,000,000?
With the inclusion of another tier, this might allow for a 10*10x scaling of prices is we set the newb level at $10.

[MythMage]

I'd prefer a clear scaling to the DCs, but if we are basing them on expected skill levels this seems to be the proper fit. Its not the smooth curve we'd both prefer, but I don't want to sacrifice fitting with the mechanics of the game.
Reasonable, but are you really confident you'd be defying reality by making it smoother? You said yourself you're not familiar with the art world. I'm afraid I'm not either, but I tend to err on the side of cleaner math when there isn't a good indication either way.


Re: avg person making $50 art...
My suggestion was to make that be the 'best' a person could do, with $25 being typical - do you think this would still be too much?
Remember, the cost of materials being used in the creation is 1/3 the final price.
I could see it, but it still seems a tad high. Though of course that does depend on the economy you're measuring against.


Now that you bring it up, perhaps there should be modifiers based on using material that costs more or less than expected? Having it affect the DC of the creation might be the simplest way to go (and still reflect the multiplier affect of skillful use). Any thoughts on how to implement this?
Perhaps you could get a +4 bonus on the check if you provide 1/2 materials instead of 1/3? Or +8 if you provide 2/3?


Re: "Assume the million-dollar range (the priciest things in the world)..."
I am not that familiar with the art world. Should I set the top tier at $1,000,000?
With the inclusion of another tier, this might allow for a 10*10x scaling of prices is we set the newb level at $10.
No, the highest is in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars... it's just that they generally don't derive their outrageous value as much from the workmanship as being made from millions of dollars worth of freaking huge or perfect gemstones and precious metals, or else from being very old and rare.

[Ashtagon]

Hmm, forum ate my post last night.

Basically, an unskilled newb (routinely passes DC 10) should be earning as if he were unskilled labour (SRD sets this at 1 sp/day). You can use the +5DC = x10value formula to extrapolate from there.

[reddir]

Reasonable, but are you really confident you'd be defying reality by making it smoother? You said yourself you're not familiar with the art world. I'm afraid I'm not either, but I tend to err on the side of cleaner math when there isn't a good indication either way.


I could see it, but it still seems a tad high. Though of course that does depend on the economy you're measuring against.


Perhaps you could get a +4 bonus on the check if you provide 1/2 materials instead of 1/3? Or +8 if you provide 2/3?


No, the highest is in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars... it's just that they generally don't derive their outrageous value as much from the workmanship as being made from millions of dollars worth of freaking huge or perfect gemstones and precious metals, or else from being very old and rare.

(hmm, I tried to quote your post in full, but the above was all I got. I hope it this will be clear enough)

re: defying reality, etc - I was referring to how the game mechanics and skill system work and the expected check modifier for a character who is specialized in that skill. I think I got it right, but would be happy to be corrected.

re: economy/newb product - Well, in the end, it should be one where 1 cp = ~US$1.

re: bonuses for spending more on raw materials - That seems to keep the profit very near the expected for any skill level while allowing for more expensive art. Very nice :)

re: high prices from other than workmanship - I was trying to model the effect time/styles/etc can have on a piece's worth with the random table at the end of my first post. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about how the art world works and have not been able to come up with more outcomes.

[reddir]

Basically, an unskilled newb (routinely passes DC 10) should be earning as if he were unskilled labour (SRD sets this at 1 sp/day). You can use the +5DC = x10value formula to extrapolate from there.

Hmm, where does that formula come from? Is it a basic assumption in the D20 mechanics?

Based on the RAW for crafting, the basic labor earns [1/2 * check gp/wk], while actually creating something earns [check * DC sp/wk]. I would think the unskilled labor rate should be set to correspond to the basic labor income, not the creation income.

However, even if we set the creation income to the unskilled labor rate for the newb, the equation gives us some wild income rates:
{table=head]DC|Income (gp/wk)|Income (US$/wk)
10|
1|
$100

15|
10|
$1k

20|
100|
$10k

25|
1k|
$100k

30|
10k|
$1mil

35|
100k|
$10mil
[/table]
(assumptions: 10-day week, 1 cp = US$1)

I don't think this could possibly be the desired result, especially given the expected skill checks of specialist characters at level 1, 3, and 5.

[Pyrite]

A good question to ask is how good are the legendary artists, the equivalent to Mozart, Michelangelo, Leonardo Da vinci, Picasso, etc. Are they lvl 5? are they lvl 10? This could tweak the scale quite a bit. Also consider that the great masters are probably a bit higher on the INT scale, looking at 14-16 at least to start (18 for Da Vinci.)

Also, it might be helpful that the DMG lists in the treasure tables a value range that includes as an example "old masterpiece painting", which is valued at 4d6 * 100 gold pieces, or between 400 and 2,400 gold pieces. (the examples after that are mostly valuable for the inclusion of precious metals and stones.) This value, however, is likely inflated by age. A current masterpiece would likely cost far less to commission.

[reddir]

A good question to ask is how good are the legendary artists, the equivalent to Mozart, Michelangelo, Leonardo Da vinci, Picasso, etc. Are they lvl 5? are they lvl 10? This could tweak the scale quite a bit. Also consider that the great masters are probably a bit higher on the INT scale, looking at 14-16 at least to start (18 for Da Vinci.)

That was part of what I tried to do in the first part of the original post.

I've taken as given the analysis I linked there, "D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations" (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html). This fits well with how D&D 3.x seems to split into quartiles (levels 1-5 = gritty, 6-10 = heroic, 11-15 = wuxia, 16-20 = superheroes) (several discussions of this, can find links if you like).


Also, it might be helpful that the DMG lists in the treasure tables a value range that includes as an example "old masterpiece painting", which is valued at 4d6 * 100 gold pieces, or between 400 and 2,400 gold pieces. (the examples after that are mostly valuable for the inclusion of precious metals and stones.) This value, however, is likely inflated by age. A current masterpiece would likely cost far less to commission.

Great find! I hadn't noticed that. If anyone else wants to reference, its "Table 3-7: Art Objects" in the Treasure section, DMG p55. At a quick glance, all but the first entry there fall above what I labeled the "Specialist Professional" category. The top 3 entries break the value of the best I had listed, but MythMage's suggestion to adjust product value when voluntarily spending more on raw materials would cover this.

If we assume no inflation due to age, the price given for "Old Masterpiece Painting" fits well with the table in the third part of my original post. The entries for "Legendary Artist" and "Legendary Artist's Best" bracket that range nicely.

[Ashtagon]

Hmm, where does that formula come from? Is it a basic assumption in the D20 mechanics?

Based on the RAW for crafting, the basic labor earns [1/2 * check gp/wk], while actually creating something earns [check * DC sp/wk]. I would think the unskilled labor rate should be set to correspond to the basic labor income, not the creation income.

However, even if we set the creation income to the unskilled labor rate for the newb, the equation gives us some wild income rates:
{table=head]DC|Income (gp/wk)|Income (US$/wk)
10|
1|
$100

15|
10|
$1k

20|
100|
$10k

25|
1k|
$100k

30|
10k|
$1mil

35|
100k|
$10mil
[/table]
(assumptions: 10-day week, 1 cp = US$1)

I don't think this could possibly be the desired result, especially given the expected skill checks of specialist characters at level 1, 3, and 5.

You're starting with a wildly inflated income figure for unskilled artists, so it's no wonder the top end is also wildly inflated.

I also think you have a distorted idea of the value of a silver piece. If we assume the unskilled labourer earns 1 sp/day, that's 30 gp a year (assume 300 working days a year).

US Federal minimum wage is apparently $7.25 an hour. Assuming 2400 hours of labour a year (8 hours per day for 300 days), that's a basic annual wage of $17,400. This makes 1 gp = $580 (17400 / 30). This is considerably more than your figure of $100.

Even so, I still think $58 for a day's work from an unskilled, untrained artist is a lot.

At the top end of real world art, DC 30 is about the highest a Michelangelo or van Gogh should be hitting. Level 5, +9 max ranks, +3 skill focus feat, +2 two-skill bonus feat, +2 masterwork tools, +4 ability score bonus.

Sunflowers is probably the most famous high-value work of art. USD 40m in 1987. No official figures to say how long he took, but given his productivity at the time, a month (25 days work) sounds reasonable. Diving it out comes to 2760 gp a day of income. Which means he was probably making checks of about DC 33 reliably.

So, yeah. van Gogh was a level 6 expert with all the right feats and tools.

[reddir]

You're starting with a wildly inflated income figure for unskilled artists, so it's no wonder the top end is also wildly inflated.

I also think you have a distorted idea of the value of a silver piece. If we assume the unskilled labourer earns 1 sp/day, that's 30 gp a year (assume 300 working days a year).

US Federal minimum wage is apparently $7.25 an hour. Assuming 2400 hours of labour a year (8 hours per day for 300 days), that's a basic annual wage of $17,400. This makes 1 gp = $580 (17400 / 30). This is considerably more than your figure of $100.

Even so, I still think $58 for a day's work from an unskilled, untrained artist is a lot.

Um, I'm assuming 1sp = $10. Those figures in the table you quoted are per week. I'm starting unskilled labor to earn $100 per week (10-days). How am I inflating things here?

Setting 1sp to $58 would make the figures even more ridiculous.


At the top end of real world art, DC 30 is about the highest a Michelangelo or van Gogh should be hitting. Level 5, +9 max ranks, +3 skill focus feat, +2 two-skill bonus feat, +2 masterwork tools, +4 ability score bonus.

Sunflowers is probably the most famous high-value work of art. USD 40m in 1987. No official figures to say how long he took, but given his productivity at the time, a month (25 days work) sounds reasonable. Diving it out comes to 2760 gp a day of income. Which means he was probably making checks of about DC 33 reliably.

So, yeah. van Gogh was a level 6 expert with all the right feats and tools.

You have to remember that in Van Gogh's time, his paintings were worth very little. Its only after much time that his work has come to be appreciated.

Leaving Van Gogh aside, many of the icons of the art world were famous in their time, but still their work did not fetch the prices they do now. They could command high prices, but nowhere near what their work auctions at now.

To make a sensible mechanic for art prices, I think it would be most helpful to focus on the prices living artists can expect for their work.

[Ashtagon]

You say you're assuming 1 sp = $10. I said you're assuming 1 gp = $100. I think we just said the same thing at this point, no?

Now, I think I did adequately show that 1 sp = $58, based on hypothetical 300-day working year, 8-hour work days, the unskilled labourer rate of 1 sp/day, and the US minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.

Since you want living artists, how about Banksy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banksy)? "On 27 April 2007 a new record high for the sale of Banksy's work was set with the auction of the work Space Girl & Bird fetching £288,000 (US$576,000) around 20 times the estimate at Bonhams of London."

Based on my numbers above, that work of art is worth 9930 sp, or 993 gp. If we assume it took him a 'month' (25 days), that makes him effectively producing 397 sp/day of artistic value. By my formulas, that means he is regularly hitting DC 23 skill checks. It probably took him a mere week though, in which case he is hitting DC 26.

[reddir]

You say you're assuming 1 sp = $10. I said you're assuming 1 gp = $100. I think we just said the same thing at this point, no?

Now, I think I did adequately show that 1 sp = $58, based on hypothetical 300-day working year, 8-hour work days, the unskilled labourer rate of 1 sp/day, and the US minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.

You said: "You're starting with a wildly inflated income figure for unskilled artists, so it's no wonder the top end is also wildly inflated."

That figure was $10/day. You are suggesting I make it $58/day, and that this will somehow lower the final result?

Remember, the 1sp/day is your starting figure. Using the formula for price/DC you suggested we end up with an artist capable of achieving DC 30 with regularity earning 10,000 gp each week. At 1gp = $100, that yields $1,000,000 per week of regular income. At 1gp = $580, that yields $5,800,000 per week of regular income...


Since you want living artists, how about Banksy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banksy)? "On 27 April 2007 a new record high for the sale of Banksy's work was set with the auction of the work Space Girl & Bird fetching £288,000 (US$576,000) around 20 times the estimate at Bonhams of London."

That...is surprisingly close to what my original posts indicates - if we assume that the artist is a "Legendary Artist" doing his absolute best work.


Based on my numbers above, that work of art is worth 9930 sp, or 993 gp. If we assume it took him a 'month' (25 days), that makes him effectively producing 397 sp/day of artistic value. By my formulas, that means he is regularly hitting DC 23 skill checks. It probably took him a mere week though, in which case he is hitting DC 26.

I see what the mistake is. You are going from US$ to gp, instead of gp to US$.

A couple of considerations:

1) Do you believe level 5 is the top level of normal human? If the answer is no, and if you prefer a lower level, then you might not expect any real world artist to be hitting DC 30 or DC 35 and the top end of the table I made to illustrate your suggestion would not be relevant.
2) I get the feeling you may not agree with other points I made in my original post. If so, as in 1) above, we may not be having a discussion based on the same fundamental assumptions. Can you lay out the assumptions you are making?

[Pyrite]

So if 5th-6th level are pretty much the height of normal human achievement, maybe we should consider the implications of going beyond that, if only just because the level range goes to 20.

Maybe at DC 40, an artist should be able to craft an image of such sublime feeling, of such emotional or sensual content, that the work actually has magical effects. Nothing too absurd, but maybe the ability to cause anyone who spends a round viewing the painting to be hit with something the equivalent of a first level spell from a specific list. (Charm Person, Hypnotism, Cause Fear, Remove Fear, Protection from Evil, Bless, Command, etc) At 45, you move up to second level spells (bulls strength, cat's grace, and the other buff spells of course.) and so on.

A 20th level expert could be expected to have a +35 bonus. (ability +5 masterwork tools +2, 23 ranks, skill focus +3, +2 synergy) allowing her to get as high as a 50 on a good roll (or a 55 on a good roll with a few more bonuses), allowing her to create an image so inspiring anyone who views it is affected by the Heroism spell, or one so insidiously intricate that she can weave a Suggestion into it, or one with starkly emotional imagery that evokes Rage, or one so brilliant, so beautiful, that it causes the viewer to be struck blind.

[reddir]

So if 5th-6th level are pretty much the height of normal human achievement, maybe we should consider the implications of going beyond that, if only just because the level range goes to 20.

Maybe at DC 40, an artist should be able to craft an image of such sublime feeling, of such emotional or sensual content, that the work actually has magical effects. Nothing too absurd, but maybe the ability to cause anyone who spends a round viewing the painting to be hit with something the equivalent of a first level spell from a specific list. (Charm Person, Hypnotism, Cause Fear, Remove Fear, Protection from Evil, Bless, Command, etc) At 45, you move up to second level spells (bulls strength, cat's grace, and the other buff spells of course.) and so on.

A 20th level expert could be expected to have a +35 bonus. (ability +5 masterwork tools +2, 23 ranks, skill focus +3, +2 synergy) allowing her to get as high as a 50 on a good roll (or a 55 on a good roll with a few more bonuses), allowing her to create an image so inspiring anyone who views it is affected by the Heroism spell, or one so insidiously intricate that she can weave a Suggestion into it, or one with starkly emotional imagery that evokes Rage, or one so brilliant, so beautiful, that it causes the viewer to be struck blind.

This can get heady, which is why I wanted to nail down the mundane aspects first.

Levels 6-10: if we assume this is the Heroic Fantasy stuff, beyond what any earthly human can possibly achieve...I think this is where all the emotional effects should lie. All the most sublime emotions, all the delicacy and nuance possible in capturing a scene or existential reality. It would all be mind-effecting effects, and just sheer appreciation of the amazing skill.

Levels 11-15: if we assume this is the Wuxia stuff...I think Portals to the location depicted, the ability to Commune with whomever is depicted, even moving pictures. The moving pictures could represent either scrying if a real person/place is depicted, or a fictional story if a fictional (within the context of the game) person/place is depicted - think soap opera, cartoons, etc.
(this is all Painting or Sculpture based, but just trying to get the concept across)

Levels 16-20: if we assume Superhero stuff...I'd think Creation would be the result - whatever is depicted is made real. Or a portal into a demiplane which matches the depicted scene, which was created by just the act of depiction. Maybe a way to trap a soul, or bind a demon or celestial, within the depiction.

----------

The nature of each category of levels is determined by the nature of spells available around that time. I didn't reference those exactly for my examples, and I have not played such high level games. But, from previous quick quick perusals of higher level spells, I feel these might be appropriate effects for what a dedicated specialist could do with art.

[Ashtagon]

* 1) Do you believe level 5 is the top level of normal human? If the answer is no, and if you prefer a lower level, then you might not expect any real world artist to be hitting DC 30 or DC 35 and the top end of the table I made to illustrate your suggestion would not be relevant.

Yes, real-world humans top out about 5th/6th level. As noted above, that means Banksy probably has between a +13-16 bonus. That could well be divided into ranks +8, ability score +1, feat +3, tools +2. Given he is legendary for not being identifiable in a crowd and has claimed to not be particularly good at drawing, I can't see his Charisma bonus as being particularly high.

* 2) I get the feeling you may not agree with other points I made in my original post. If so, as in 1) above, we may not be having a discussion based on the same fundamental assumptions. Can you lay out the assumptions you are making?

My assumption is that my 1sp/day unskilled newb has a +0 bonus total. A basic level 1 art student probably has up to 4 skill ranks, a point or two of ability score bonus, but no masterwork tools until he reaches at least level 2.

6th level Master
ranks +9, ability bonus +4, Skill Focus +3, masterwork tools +2, assistant aid another bonus +0 synergy +2, = +20 (steady progress on DC 30 tasks)

For artistic endeavours, I don't think it's really possible to benefit from an aid another bonus. There's too much personal creative effort involved. Aid another is good for 'perspiration', but not 'inspiration', which is what art requires. The SRD notes that "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial". I think art is one such case.

Real world artists are likely to fall short in at least one of these areas. It takes exceptional single-mindedness to have everything perfectly optimised. These are real humans after all, not min-maxer D&D players.

Another assumption is that real-world artists are not constantly churning out art day-in day-out. They take extensive breaks to do good deeds, self-promote, or just enjoy their wealth.

I just remembered - Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Guide actually has an artist character class. may be worth checking through that for ideas.

[Pyrite]

This can get heady, which is why I wanted to nail down the mundane aspects first.

Levels 6-10: if we assume this is the Heroic Fantasy stuff, beyond what any earthly human can possibly achieve...I think this is where all the emotional effects should lie. All the most sublime emotions, all the delicacy and nuance possible in capturing a scene or existential reality. It would all be mind-effecting effects, and just sheer appreciation of the amazing skill.

Levels 11-15: if we assume this is the Wuxia stuff...I think Portals to the location depicted, the ability to Commune with whomever is depicted, even moving pictures. The moving pictures could represent either scrying if a real person/place is depicted, or a fictional story if a fictional (within the context of the game) person/place is depicted - think soap opera, cartoons, etc.
(this is all Painting or Sculpture based, but just trying to get the concept across)

Levels 16-20: if we assume Superhero stuff...I'd think Creation would be the result - whatever is depicted is made real. Or a portal into a demiplane which matches the depicted scene, which was created by just the act of depiction. Maybe a way to trap a soul, or bind a demon or celestial, within the depiction.

----------

The nature of each category of levels is determined by the nature of spells available around that time. I didn't reference those exactly for my examples, and I have not played such high level games. But, from previous quick quick perusals of higher level spells, I feel these might be appropriate effects for what a dedicated specialist could do with art.

Maybe a class dedicated entirely to it should get those kind of effects, but I'd want to keep the effects fairly subtle and low power for someone who just has many ranks in a skill. Remember we're talking about something the lvl 20 bard who pump 23 ranks into craft "painting" would be able to accomplish. Anything flashy and obvious should be the result of 'actual magic'.

The mere use of a skill shouldn't duplicate spells of an equal level, but spells of a much lower level, I think.