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View Full Version : [4e] PSA: Character Classes and Monster Roles and Types



Aron Times
2010-11-27, 05:36 PM
One thing that comes up often when detractors talk about 4e is that because the fighter and the wizard are roughly equal in power, the party wizard and Average Joe McGuardsman are roughly equal in power.

This is not the case. For one, Joe is not a fighter but a standard "monster." Characters who have class levels are the heroes of the story, and would be much more powerful than their counterparts. PCs fall roughly in between elite monsters and solo monsters in power, depending on whether they go all out or not.

A PC who goes all out, using every power and item he has at his disposal might be able to take out a solo monster of the same level. Without his dailies, he's roughly at elite level. Elites and solos get inflated HP and recharge mechanics on their powers to represent the extra powers and healing and equipment (i.e. wealth-by-level) and feats that PCs of the same level have at their disposal. When you look at the various solos and elites in 4e, you'll find that only a handful of them have the ability to heal themselves, as their inflated HP represents increased HP from healing without giving them healing powers.

In fact, NPCs and monsters with class levels are elites which have a class template slapped on them. The DMG recommends giving class levels only to recurring allies and villains because most antagonists only fight in one encounter and most random NPC allies of the day don't actually fight the party.

NPCs and monsters in 4e have a type and a role.

Types:

1. Minion
2. Standard
3. Elite
4. Solo

Roles

1. Soldier
2. Skirmisher
3. Lurker
4. Controller
5. Brute
6. (Leader) Subtype

I'm AFB right now, and can't be bothered to look up the complete list of monster roles.

So, going back to Average Joe McGuardsman, he is probably a standard soldier or brute. The elite guard of the city might be elite soldiers or brutes, with their commander being an elite soldier (leader).

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Mando Knight
2010-11-27, 05:38 PM
*Looks for a hat or new weapon, doesn't see any*

...Are you sure this is a legitimate Mann Co product? There's not even a bullet here!

Cealocanth
2010-11-27, 06:14 PM
One thing that comes up ...

The thing is, Average Joe McGuardsman could also be a Minion, designed to simply be cannon fodder for a horde of monsters. It all depends on how the PCs are intended to interact with him. If the PCs never come around or even acknowledge the existence of Joe, he may not even have stats at all untill an enemy faces him.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-27, 08:29 PM
One thing that comes up often when detractors talk about 4e is that because the fighter and the wizard are roughly equal in power, the party wizard and Average Joe McGuardsman are roughly equal in power.

Really?

I don't recall seeing this argument, ever, in two years of steady edition debate.

Orzel
2010-11-27, 09:37 PM
Actually I see thing slightly differently.

A character's strength (solo, elite, standard, minion, PC) is based on who is the current main character.

Let's say there are 5 characters

Red the rookie Guard
Joe the veteran Guard
Captain Mac of the City Guard
Fred, One of Big 6 of the South Side Sneaks
the Shadow Lady


Now if you are playing as Fred, a skilled rogue of a moderately sized gang. Captain Mac would be an elite if your fought him since he is only slightly weaker than Fred. Fred should either have to spend all his encounter powers or at least 1 daily to defeat Captain Mac alone. Joe is of slightly lower skill and Red is even weaker but not that much. Fred should defeat Joe without too much trouble and should not lose to Red at all. To Fred, Joe is a standard monster and Red is a minion. The Shadow Lady is just too strong for Fred to handle alone and is a solo. Fred could still win but he'd need to nova and be very lucky.

Red: Lvl 3 minion
Joe: Lvl 3 standard
Mac: Lvl 2 elite
Fred, Lvl 3 PC
Shadow Lady: Lvl 3 solo


Now if you are playing as Captain Mac, Fred is an elite of a higher level. Joe is a standard since Mac should beat Fred. Red is a higher level minion since Mac shouldn't lose to a rookie but it shouldn't that easy to win. The Shadow Lady is now even stronger and is a higher level solo.

Red: Lvl 5 minion
Joe: Lvl 3 standard
Mac: Lvl 3 PC
Fred, Lvl 4 elite
Shadow Lady: Lvl 4 solo


Now if you are the Shadow Lady, Fred and Mac are both standard monsters. Joe and Red are equally strong minion since the difference in their power is negligible.

Red: Lvl 3 minion
Joe: Lvl 3 minion
Mac: Lvl 3 standard
Fred, Lvl 4 standard
Shadow Lady: Lvl 3 PC

Thanatos 51-50
2010-11-27, 09:53 PM
The thing is, Average Joe McGuardsman could also be a Minion, designed to simply be cannon fodder for a horde of monsters. It all depends on how the PCs are intended to interact with him. If the PCs never come around or even acknowledge the existence of Joe, he may not even have stats at all until an enemy faces him.

The thing is, this exists the same way in 3.5.
The DM is probably going to stat up the city guard in 4e if he thinks the PCs are going to cause some trouble, the same way he would in 3.5.
If he DM doesn't expect the PC to interact at all with the cty guard other than in the simple manners which require no roll (A legitimate passport and a friendly "Hello" when entering through the gates, for example), he may not even be bothered to stat them up at all, and there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
4e and 3.5 provide equally deep/shallow experiances depending on the DM in question.

Now, Scholar GreyBeard (Wizard) the PC and Mac, the also-PC (Fighter) are of roughly equal power level, but that's because they're both PCs.
There is nothing wrong with this. I approve of this.
As stated by the OP, Joe McAverageGuardsmen is not a PC, he does not have levels in a PC class, much like a 3.5 city guard would have levels in Warrior, not Fighter. There is a power discrepancy. This is also, arguably, depending on the power level of your campaign, right and proper.

Lunix Vandal
2010-11-27, 10:28 PM
I don't have my books handy ATM, but one of them (PH maybe?) has a sidebar that explicitly calls out this issue. The explanation given is that, for any given campaign world, while there are hundreds of thousands of people who fit the archetypes of "warrior" or "thief," only the top fraction of a percent of them (read: PC material) are actually Fighters, Rogues, et cetera. Also, Joe is operating at a static power level (i.e. nth-level Soldier), while Greybeard McWizard has the capacity to improve. While Joe might prove a challenge 1-on-1 when Greybeard is level n, Level n+10 Greybeard will curbstomp him.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-11-28, 12:58 AM
Wait, what? I've never seen anyone claim that PCs and standard monsters are of equal power level. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point...?

The Glyphstone
2010-11-28, 01:26 AM
Likewise - while I've frequently seen the 'all classes are the same' criticism, I've never seen anyone claim that 'PCs = equal power to monsters'. Sure you aren't tilting at windmills here?

Meta
2010-11-28, 11:18 AM
5 at-level monsters is the recommended encounter for a 5 person party. Seems to lend some credence to what he's saying. The 'average' PC is actually a bit stronger in my opinion somewhere between a standard monster a level or two higher or an on level-ish elite. The exact point is debatable IMHO.

Greenish
2010-11-28, 01:11 PM
5 at-level monsters is the recommended encounter for a 5 person party. Seems to lend some credence to what he's saying.Yeah, but a recommended encounter is not supposed to be an even fight, I should think.

Meta
2010-11-28, 01:18 PM
Yeah, but a recommended encounter is not supposed to be an even fight, I should think.

Hence my statement that PCs are actually a little stronger. Read the next sentence down.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-11-28, 01:32 PM
Actually I see thing slightly differently.

A character's strength (solo, elite, standard, minion, PC) is based on who is the current main character.

QFT. Character strength is derived from the Rule of Story.

As far as whether this is an actual stand that's been taken...perhaps this is one of the complaints falling under the umbrella of "4E is a videogame"?