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Dralnu
2010-11-27, 07:06 PM
I'm going to be playing in a short campaign in two weeks from now. The DM says that it will take between 3 to 5 sessions to complete. We start at level 10 and will likely end at level 12.

I'd like to play an unarmed Master of Nine for this one. I also want to enter and finish the class as early as possible, so that means 7th level entry. I'm still captivated by the flavor and haven't had a chance to try it out yet. The rest of the party sounds like they'll be in tier 3 with no crazy optimization so I'd like to stick around that power level too.

Psionics, Incarnum, Dragon Magazine not allowed, setting-specific has to be individually approved. Being simple and elegant is a plus.

How's a nice way to accomplish this for a level 10 character? I had two ideas so far:

Human Unarmed Swordsage 6 / Mo9 4: All feats go to getting the pre-reqs. Full maneuver progression.

Human Monk 2 / Swordsage 4/ Mo9 4: Use sleeping tiger monk variant to grab weapon finesse, improved initiative, and improved unarmed strike among other goodies. This gives me an extra feat to play with, maybe Shadow Blade or Superior Unarmed Strike? Lose 1 BAB though and lesser maneuver progression.

Which option should I go for? Any other builds that would work better?

Elfstone
2010-11-27, 07:24 PM
For Master of Nine Six
Not possible(to get all the 9th level maouvers).
you just don't have the initiator level needed to get all the level 9s.
and your build wouldn't be very good as you would be taking crazy different manouvers.


You could do it and get the class. But you wouldn't be very good incombat(in my opinion)

Dralnu
2010-11-27, 08:09 PM
9th level maneuvers require level 17 though. The campaign won't likely take us beyond level 12.

What makes Mo9 such a bad choice? Let's compare Unarmed Swordsage 11 to Unarmed Swordsage 6 / Mo9 5.

Both progressions are going to take adaptive style and improved unarmed strike is a freebie. Straight swordsage gets +1 BAB and 3 extra feat slots. The Mo9 build gets +3 maneuvers known, +3 readied, and +1 stance, these can be from any discipline too. Also much better abilities within 5 levels. I'm no ToB expert so I can't think of any 3 feats that the pure swordsage can take that would make it way better than an Mo9 here.

Runestar
2010-11-27, 08:16 PM
You need at least 7 lvs before you can take Mo9, since it needs 10 ranks in a variety of skills.

So earliest, maybe something like warblade5/unarmed swordsage2/MoN+?

Flickerdart
2010-11-27, 08:40 PM
It's possible to get all nines with Mo9, you just need to make liberal use of bloodlines, Legacy Champion, etc.

Escheton
2010-11-27, 09:56 PM
Seeing master of 9 progresses initiatorlvl in all 3 classes, and the use of feats and 2 of the classes could net you prereqs, 3 9's is not that farfetched.
On that note though, I would recommend against master of 9 for a lvl 10-12 build.
Sure it's great fun, but you will notice that it only starts to shine right after that point.

Elfstone
2010-11-27, 10:26 PM
Seeing master of 9 progresses initiatorlvl in all 3 classes, and the use of feats and 2 of the classes could net you prereqs, 3 9's is not that farfetched.
On that note though, I would recommend against master of 9 for a lvl 10-12 build.
Sure it's great fun, but you will notice that it only starts to shine right after that point.

Exactly. My point.
If you want to, go for it. Its just not meant for something in the tweens. Meant for the teens(level wise)

Corwin_of_Amber
2010-11-27, 10:44 PM
I was messing with a Mo9 build and I found that martial rogue and fighter levels to start would be best. Although Mo9 is best when taken after level 10-ish since that's when you get the best maneuvers.

Human - Martial Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 3 this gets you 7 feats to play with by level 7 and you'll start Warblade with an IL of 3 and all of the relevant early warblade special abilities. The only downside is that you lose some BAB. (I used Cleric instead of Monk for domains that granted Improved Initiative and Blind Fight, then grabbed a few levels of RKV for the additional recovery.) Note: this build gives you 54 skill points at level 7 with a +0 to Int.

The feats I went with were:
Level 1: Dodge (Human), Improved Initiative (L1 feat), Blind Fight (Rogue feat)
Level 2:Martial Study - Wind Stride (Fighter 1)
Level 3: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Power Attack
Level 4: Adaptive Style (Fighter 2)
Level 6: Superior Unarmed Strike.

For the Martial Study feat you can choose any lv 1 maneuver from Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Setting Sun, or Shadow Hand. I like Wind Stride because you only need it once per encounter to position yourself, at the start. I hope this helps.

Draz74
2010-11-28, 01:27 AM
I'm particularly fond of basing Mo9 on a Warblade base. Something like

Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 5 / Master of Nine 3

in your case. This is advantageous because one of the main benefits of Master of Nine, an extra readied maneuver at every level, is a bigger advantage when combined with a class with a better recovery mechanism than Swordsage.

This build won't have quite as high base unarmed damage as a purer Swordsage, but that's not really a big deal when you're amping all your damage up with maneuvers.

Also, I find Setting Sun in general terribly flavorful for anyone who fights unarmed.


It's possible to get all nines with Mo9, you just need to make liberal use of bloodlines, Legacy Champion, etc.

Or maneuver-granting items. I never understood the craze with getting all the L9 maneuvers anyway ...

Darrin
2010-11-29, 09:40 AM
Some dip-worthy classes that can be useful to get into Master of Nine:

Fighter 2. If you're using an unarmed swordsage for Improved Unarmed Strike, this may make more sense than a two-level monk dip. You get BAB +2 and the same number of bonus feats (but a better selection of them). You already get your Wisdom bonus to AC via Swordsage, and if you really miss flurry, you can take TWF or Snap Kick later. A Fighter 2/Warblade 5 stub also allows you to pick up a 3rd level stance at ECL 6. Fighters also get Tower Shield proficiency, and you can swap this for an Exotic Shield Proficiency if you want to pick up an Extreme Shield (+3 shield bonus to AC).

Cloistered Cleric 1 (UA). Take the Knowledge devotion, Time domain (Improved Initiative), and Darkness domain (Blind-Fight). If the DM allows you to adapt the deity requirements, can also be used to get into Ruby Knight Vindicator later. You can also pair this up with a Cobra Strike Monk 1 for Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge. You don't get any BAB for the two dips, but you do get four of the five prereq feats out of the way.

Dragon Totem Barbarian 1 (UA). Trades fast movement for Blind-Fight at 1st level. Unfortunately, can't be combined with Spirit Lion Totem for pounce. However, it can be combined with the City Brawler Barbarian variant from Dragon #349, which gains Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF (unarmed strike only) as bonus feats at 1st level. Trade Rage for another attack with Whirling Frenzy. This pairs up nicely with Crusader 1 for a full BAB Warblade entry into Mo9: Dragon Totem City Brawler Barbarian 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 5. If Dragon Magazine material isn't allowed, Cobra Strike Monk 1 gets you Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge.

Cobra Strike Monk 1 (UA). Gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge. There's no point in getting another level of monk, since all you get is a bonus feat (and it's not one you need). You can get another prereq feat by taking a level of Fighter or Dragon Totem Barbarian. Actually, Dragon Totem Barbarian gives you both Blind-Fight and either Rage or Whirling Frenzy. Another downside is alternate Dodge feats aren't available (Expeditious Dodge, Midnight Dodge), but that's more of a minor annoyance.

Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium). Gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a monk, and adds Charisma bonus to AC when unarmored. This only gets you one of the prereq feats, and is only useful if you need a monk's Improved Unarmed Strike without sacrificing any BAB and the DM won't let you pick it up somewhere else (Unarmed Swordsage, Fist of the Forest, or City Brawler Barbarian). Some DMs may rule that non-monk unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons for the purposes of Improved Natural Attack, Greater Magic Fang, etc. Add Superior Unarmed Strike later (which you can pick up at ECL 3 now with full BAB) and your unarmed damage will scale up by character level. Battle Dancer does not gain Flurry of Blows, but you can get something similar with TWF, Snap Kick, or Whirling Frenzy.

Note on stances: Unarmed Swordsage 7/Mo9 3 gets the most stances at the optimum levels. You get two 1st level stances, one 3rd level, and one 5th level. Warblade entry needs at least one or two dips to get the necessary prereqs, which throws off your IL at ECL 9 so you miss out on a 5th level stance, but if you take two non-Warblade levels before Warblade 4, you can pick up a 3rd level stance. However, many of the 3rd level stances are better than the 5th level stances, so you may want two of the 3rd level stances anyway.

Tokuhara
2010-11-29, 04:02 PM
Master of the Nine, as stated above, is a mid 13-19 awesomesauce PrC that really can play well as the primary melee. I actually say that certain classes do help (Cleric, Barbarian, ect.), but personally, I prefer to use a small race with swashbuckler or a large race with a reach weapon, but that's just me...

Here's my small-guy build:

Whisper Gnome
Unarmed Swordsage 6/Warblade 1/Dragon Totem Barbarian 1/Mot9 5/Swashbuckler 3/Scarlet Corsair 4

use Improved Feint with any maneuver and you hit them, then pick up Intimidating Rage & any feat that allows an intimidation check after an attack and you suddenly have your enemies running for the Hills