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Thanatos 51-50
2010-11-27, 07:43 PM
Hey, guys.
I've been suckered into a 3.5 gestalt game, and I'm planning a Swashbuckler/Rogue//Bard out.
The big question here is this:

Does anybody know of a way outside of the Dervish prestige class to make a scimitar a finesse weapon? Because I don't want to drop Weapon Finesse on a rapier and then have to buy it again after potentially picking up the Dervish pretige class. I'm mostly fluctuating between that and Urban Soul, but one of the other group members is planning a Druid//Ninja, and there's going to be so much time outside of cities, that Urban Soul might be too much of a handicap.

Greenish
2010-11-27, 07:49 PM
Feycraft weapon template from PHBII. Makes the weapon Finessable, but reduces the damage by one dice size, so d6 -> d4.

[Edit]: Also note that 3.5's Weapon Finesse is not taken for each separate weapon. You take it once, and it applies to all weapons that qualify.

Thanatos 51-50
2010-11-27, 08:43 PM
Feycraft weapon template from PHBII. Makes the weapon Finessable, but reduces the damage by one dice size, so d6 -> d4.

[Edit]: Also note that 3.5's Weapon Finesse is not taken for each separate weapon. You take it once, and it applies to all weapons that qualify.

Oh, really? So I'll just have to take a few useless feats for a while until making Dervish? And lose the Swash's Insightful Strike (Or is it Cunning?) class feature? (The one that lets me add INT to damage.)

Greenish
2010-11-27, 08:52 PM
Oh, really? So I'll just have to take a few useless feats for a while until making Dervish?Well, finesse will only be useless if you wish to use scimitars before picking up the dervish levels.
And lose the Swash's Insightful Strike (Or is it Cunning?) class feature? (The one that lets me add INT to damage.)It's Insightful Strike, and yeah, if you don't have a finessable weapon you're not getting it.

My advice is to either use a rapier until you get the dervish levels, grab feycraft scimitars as soon as possible, or ask your DM for finesse to apply to scimitars.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-27, 08:52 PM
Why lose Insightful Strike? It'll be useful to you, if your Int is better than your Str (which sounds likely for this build).

What sort of character do you want to play, exactly? Because a Daring Outlaw/Bard Gestalt sounds like a swashbuckling guile hero, to me. It sounds to me like you're worried about getting a move and full attack in the same round. Dervish is nice for that, because it lets you move and full attack, but it isn't great for full attacking a single target. You might see if your DM would let you fuel Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) with Bardic Music uses instead of Turn attempts, which will let you move as a swift action and full attack with the rest of your actions.

But, like I asked before, what is it you're looking to get out of this build?

Prime32
2010-11-27, 08:53 PM
Feycraft weapon template from PHBII. Makes the weapon Finessable, but reduces the damage by one dice size, so d6 -> d4.Wouldn't a feycraft scimitar be identical to a kukri, just more expensive? :smallconfused:

The main use of Feycraft is to put it on a weapon that's already light, which lets you wield it as if you had Weapon Finesse (though that's irrelevant to your build).

Greenish
2010-11-27, 08:57 PM
Why lose Insightful Strike? It'll be useful to you, if your Int is better than your Str (which sounds likely for this build).It's useful as long as you have positive Int modifier. :smallamused: It's in addition to strength.

Wouldn't a feycraft scimitar be identical to a kukri, just more expensive? :smallconfused:Yes. :smallcool:

[Edit]: And feycraft is in DMGII, not PHBII. I should really check my sources beforehand. :smallredface:

Boci
2010-11-27, 09:17 PM
Wouldn't a feycraft scimitar be identical to a kukri, just more expensive? :smallconfused:

No, you can power attack with feycraft scimitars.

Thanatos 51-50
2010-11-27, 09:35 PM
Here's my "hitlist of important things this build must do"
Item one, on page one, in flaming golden letters:
1. Must Primarily be a martial character.
(I cannot stress this enough. I hate primary casters. They're flavourless and boring. If I wanted to wreck the gametable in terms of power, I'd play a straight Druid//Cleric or Wizard//Sorcerer.)
2. Must be different
There's nothing exactly new or different with a Daring Outlaw//Bard, but I'm hoping to alleviate at least some of that with something even so simple as using a scimitar as a weapon of choice instead of a rapier. Most of this will be background/Roleplay stuff, I understand, but I'd like a build that fits with the role I'm playing.
3. Must be effective as a frontline combatant.
Being Joe McMurderDeathKill is not my thing, but I refuse to sit in the back lines, giving everybody a +2 morale bonus to hitting things and having that be my contribution throughout the fights. I can use Perform (Sing) for my Bardic Music and hit things with a sword simultaneously.
4. Skill Tricks
I want to make heavy use of the skill tricks present in Complete Scoundrel. Mostly because they're awesome, and a few of them (Acrobatic Backstab, Spot the Weak Point) will actively help in combat, and helps paint a picture of a liquid-quick fighter that moves with precision and grace
5. Skills
While I'm planning on a heavy toll of movement skills (Climb, Tumble, Dance, Balance), I'm also wanting to be useful in other roles (Spot/Listen) and, most of all, act as the party's face when I'm not busy outsmarting the caster (Bluff, Diplomacy)

6. Attribute Priority:
INT (For my lovely, lovely skills and Insightful Strike)
CHA (For my lovely lovely being a magnificent <Manipulator> [And Bard Spells])
DEX (For my lovely Lovely Dodge bonuses and weapon finesse)
STR (Hittin' things. Grr.)
WIS (Bein' aware of things. Grr.)
CON (Bein' Hit. Not fun. Ouchies.)

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 09:45 PM
6. Attribute Priority:
INT (For my lovely, lovely skills and Insightful Strike)
CHA (For my lovely lovely being a magnificent <Manipulator> [And Bard Spells])
DEX (For my lovely Lovely Dodge bonuses and weapon finesse)
STR (Hittin' things. Grr.)
WIS (Bein' aware of things. Grr.)
CON (Bein' Hit. Not fun. Ouchies.)

You're going to need more Constitution.

Thanatos 51-50
2010-11-27, 09:57 PM
You're going to need more Constitution.

Attribute generation is still being worked out by the DM. Since he wants a high-power campaign, he's flirting with something ridiculous: 5d6b3 (reroll 1s). Con I'm going to have.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-27, 10:01 PM
First, I would recommend reprioritizing your stats. I would place Con much higher, at least higher than Str and Wis, if not Dex.

If you want to primarily be a martial character, I'd recomend Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17//Bard 10/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 10. If you want to take full advantage of Swiftblade, I'd recommend the feat Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment for the Time or Celerity Domains, which grants you Haste early. If your DM doesn't allow the Haste from your Domain (which you can cast 3 times, if I remember Correctly) to count then take Versatile spellcaster to be able to combine two 2nd level spells to cast a 3rd level spell, as you'll know Haste from your domain, and that should get you into Swiftblade at level 6. Take Bard 5/Swiftblade 5/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 4/Full Arcane Casting PrC 5 (you can retrain Planar Touchstone at level 8, if your DM will let you, as you then have 3rd level spells). It's a little cheesy, but it nets you 9th level spells to use Ex: Timestop with, which is nice.

The feats you'd need are Planar Touchstone, Dodge, Mobility, Daring Outlaw, and maybe Versatile Spellcaster (which you'd want anyway, for the versatility). I'd recommend, in addition, Leadership (if your DM will let you have an Incantatrix familiar who can then persist your Bardic Music), Dragonfire Inspiration (and perhaps Draconic Heritage, for an energy type other than fire), Lingering Song (unless you can persist them), Snowflake Wardance (you want to be martial, well, you'll be martial with this. And a Special Snowflake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome). A special snowflake with a razor's edge.), Bounding Assault (This should net you 6 attacks on a spring attack, while under the effects of your own haste, with the level 7 Swiftblade ability), Words of Creation (I'd say you need this, frankly, it's that good), Song of the Heart (Synergizes well with WoC), Melodic Casting, and whatever else you feel like.

You'll also want a Crystal Echoblade (see if your DM will let you finesse it, maybe make it into a Rapier if need be, assuming you take Weapon Finesse) and Slippers of Battledancing.

Oh, and you may want to read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0).

Worguron
2010-11-27, 10:11 PM
Oh, really? So I'll just have to take a few useless feats for a while until making Dervish? And lose the Swash's Insightful Strike (Or is it Cunning?) class feature? (The one that lets me add INT to damage.)

Actually, in reading the Dervish again, once you're a Dervish, scimitars are all good. You treat them in all ways as light weapons. That means Insightful Strike, Finesse, etc. are all good for you.

Thanatos 51-50
2010-11-27, 10:17 PM
First, I would recommend reprioritizing your stats. I would place Con much higher, at least higher than Str and Wis, if not Dex.

If you want to primarily be a martial character, I'd recomend Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17//Bard 10/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 10. If you want to take full advantage of Swiftblade, I'd recommend the feat Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment for the Time or Celerity Domains, which grants you Haste early. If your DM doesn't allow the Haste from your Domain (which you can cast 3 times, if I remember Correctly) to count then take Versatile spellcaster to be able to combine two 2nd level spells to cast a 3rd level spell, as you'll know Haste from your domain, and that should get you into Swiftblade at level 6. Take Bard 5/Swiftblade 5/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade 4/Full Arcane Casting PrC 5 (you can retrain Planar Touchstone at level 8, if your DM will let you, as you then have 3rd level spells). It's a little cheesy, but it nets you 9th level spells to use Ex: Timestop with, which is nice.

The feats you'd need are Planar Touchstone, Dodge, Mobility, Daring Outlaw, and maybe Versatile Spellcaster (which you'd want anyway, for the versatility). I'd recommend, in addition, Leadership (if your DM will let you have an Incantatrix familiar who can then persist your Bardic Music), Dragonfire Inspiration (and perhaps Draconic Heritage, for an energy type other than fire), Lingering Song (unless you can persist them), Snowflake Wardance (you want to be martial, well, you'll be martial with this. And a Special Snowflake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpecialSnowflakeSyndrome). A special snowflake with a razor's edge.), Bounding Assault (This should net you 6 attacks on a spring attack, while under the effects of your own haste, with the level 7 Swiftblade ability), Words of Creation (I'd say you need this, frankly, it's that good), Song of the Heart (Synergizes well with WoC), Melodic Casting, and whatever else you feel like.

You'll also want a Crystal Echoblade (see if your DM will let you finesse it, maybe make it into a Rapier if need be, assuming you take Weapon Finesse) and Slippers of Battledancing.

Oh, and you may want to read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0).

You posted this and my immediate response was LOLWUT.
I am in possession of the following books. Please don't go too far outside them.

Core
Complete Warrior/Scoundrel/Adventurer
Races of Destiny

So, yeah, not much. I haven't even heard of a good 60% of the stuff you were throwing out there, and that insane Bard 5/Inspiring whatever 1/Something else gobleddygook is something I most definitively do not want to try to plan out. The very idea gives me a headache.


Actually, in reading the Dervish again, once you're a Dervish, scimitars are all good. You treat them in all ways as light weapons. That means Insightful Strike, Finesse, etc. are all good for you.

But it'll be useless for Insightful Striking I actually pick up said Dervish class, which worries me a little.
The best mechanical way I can think of is to pick up the last requirement (Weapon Focus [Scimitar]) the same level I pick up the Dervish class and then switching weapons over, but it'll be slightly jarring in-story, and I'd have to let the DM know what was up.

Greenish
2010-11-27, 10:28 PM
You posted this and my immediate response was LOLWUT.
I am in possession of the following books. Please don't go too far outside them.

Core
Complete Warrior/Scoundrel/Adventurer
Races of DestinyBook limitations traditionally go to first post, to help us know what to recommend to you. :smallamused:

I haven't even heard of a good 60% of the stuff you were throwing out there, and that insane Bard 5/Inspiring whatever 1/Something else gobleddygook is something I most definitively do not want to try to plan out. The very idea gives me a headache.Heh, bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 2-9 is pretty much the standard bard build of higher char-op, getting great skills, casting and songs. What was recommended was a variant of that.

But it'll be useless for Insightful Striking I actually pick up said Dervish class, which worries me a little.
The best mechanical way I can think of is to pick up the last requirement (Weapon Focus [Scimitar]) the same level I pick up the Dervish class and then switching weapons over, but it'll be slightly jarring in-story, and I'd have to let the DM know what was up.Well, you learn a new technique, which uses a different weapon in a different way. That's hardly stretching the bounds of credibility, but I continue to recommend you to try to get a special dispensation to apply finesse to scimitars.

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 10:32 PM
Well, you learn a new technique, which uses a different weapon in a different way. That's hardly stretching the bounds of credibility, but I continue to recommend you to try to get a special dispensation to apply finesse to scimitars.
It even looks familiar. After character defining event, the protagonist goes through a lenghty cutscene/training montage and now uses a different weapon.