The nine sides

[Chaos rising]

In comic 548 and the giant's commentary in said book, there are nine sides fighting for the gate, at least one we don't know about. The problem is I can only count seven and I don't see how two more sides are going to be added when supposedly the plot is past the halfway point. Here are the sides as far as I can figure.
The Order: Wants to stop Xykon, and to a lesser extent any other evil doer who wants to use the gates, from getting them.
The Paladins: Although there are only four of them left, they are still a separate side, especially now that the elves are helping them.
Xykon: Get the gate, rule the world.
Redcloak: Although he works with Xykon, they have far different agendas and he says that he doesn't consider himself on the same side as Xykon in the above strip.
The linear guild: Get a gate, make the order of the stick suffer.
The IFCC: Although the linear guild technically works for them, the IFCC wants the gate for the completely different reason and most of the LGers aren't aware of their existence.
The order of the scribble: Defend the gates from everyone.
?Tarquinn and co.?: He knows Girard (or at least knows what he looked like a few decades ago) and is in control of most of the western continent. It seems like he would know something about the gates.
There's seven plus one possible eighth side that may or may not be true. Can anyone think of anything I missed?

[Morquard]

Actually they said we don't know about "some of them" yet, not just one.
Also there could be 13 sides for all we know, nothing says the demon roaches know everything.
And it means just that, we don't know about all of them. We most likely have not even met them yet. So how are we to speculate who they are?

Alot of people knew Soon, that doesn't mean they knew about his gate. So "Tarquin knows Girard so he must know about the gate" is pretty far fetched.

[Chaos rising]

I know, I don't think that Tarquinn knows about the gates, I was just using every possible idea I had. Hence the ?s

[Cicciograna]

I'd add the Snarl too as a separate side, because its aim is to break the gates and undo reality.

[Onyavar]

The Paladins: Although there are only four of them left, they are still a separate side, especially now that the elves are helping them.
[...]
The order of the scribble: Defend the gates from everyone.
?Tarquinn and co.?: He knows Girard (or at least knows what he looked like a few decades ago) and is in control of most of the western continent. It seems like he would know something about the gates.
There's seven plus one possible eighth side that may or may not be true. Can anyone think of anything I missed?

Okay, let's have a look. The Gods (West, North, South combined) are certainly a side interested in the gate conflict(s).
You mentioned "The Paladins" as one side, I guess you meant the Azurites. They are on the same side as the Order of the Scribble, so make that one side. Or, more probably, since the Scribble broke apart: Girard, Serini (Soon, Durokan and Lirian) can be considered as five sides in total, that work more or less to the same goal - three of them now out of the game.
Still IN the game is Tiamat and her Oracle, which is announced as a major villain in the recent poster merchandise.
Well, then there are the demon roaches... Maybe they also have their own sinister plans (I guess not really important here, but since they know about the gates and stick around Team Evil, maybe they are hoping for breadcrumbs. Who knows, who knows??
Back in the days, people also considered Kubota as a side here.
Also add the Snarl as a side.
Also add the elves as a side, maybe they are not liberating Azure City out of altruism, but to control the rift...

Adding this to your count, we have clearly more than nine sides, maybe even nine sides on both the Good and the Evil side.

You may now aggregate all these sides into your perception of current alliances and interest groups (e.g. put the Azure City Resistance, the remaining Sapphire Guard and the elves liberation force as one interest group, or maybe rather throw Sapphire Guard and Order of the Stick together as a side. Merge Linear Guild side with IFCC side at your own inclination, or put Xykon, Redcloak and Tsukiko (maybe even MitD) together - or maybe Tsukiko isn't a side, since she doesn't have plans for the Gates... or does she?? What if the MitD is aligned with O'Chul now, will this put him on the paladins side? Does this mean that MitD is now working on the same side as the elves liberation forces? Hey, what with Eugene and Roys Archon, are they on the exact same page as the OotS?

Long story short: I don't believe in counting sides and even less in them to be exactly nine.

[suszterpatt]

Actually they said we don't know about "some of them" yet, not just one.
Also there could be 13 sides for all we know, nothing says the demon roaches know everything.
And it means just that, we don't know about all of them. We most likely have not even met them yet. So how are we to speculate who they are?

Alot of people knew Soon, that doesn't mean they knew about his gate. So "Tarquin knows Girard so he must know about the gate" is pretty far fetched.
13 sides?

Sounds way too Eberron, Rich would never go there. :smallwink:

[Onyavar]

For inspiration, please also consider reading the following threads (don't reply there, since those are the old threads to discuss this question) and then update your list here.

Sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114690), June 2009

Team Peregrine is a side! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119336), July 2009

9 sides to the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123426), Sep 2009

How many sides are there anyway? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119355) June 2009, locked in Jan 2010

Nines sides debate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167352) July 2010

There may be more that I don't remember/find.

[Mr. Snuggles]

*Ahem*. Not nine. At least nine was the quote. There may be more yet to come. Ten? Eleven? The more the merrier!

[faustin]

You forget one side more.... Mr. Scruffy plans for the Gate aren´t revealed yet.
He is still in the process of brainwashing Belkar in order to make him a suitable tool for his purposes.:smallamused:

[Miklus]

Don't forget the Holey Brotherhood.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Conuly]

To complicate matters, I'm not sure the Scribblies count as a side anymore. We know that at least 3 of the remaining 5 are dead, and that they'd schism'ed before then. (How badly is unclear. It may have been that everybody stayed in touch with each other EXCEPT Soon, it may have been that everybody stayed in touch with each other but that the three not fighting pretended to Soon and Girard that they weren't talking with the other one, it may have been that Girard and Serini formed their own sub-group apart from the other either Soon or the lovers. We don't know the situation here.)

So potentially they're either not part of this at all... or they're up to 5 different sides in and of themselves. Soon's side, of course, is the Paladins, so we've already counted that, and we can probably safely say that the dead guys don't form a side anymore (unless Lirian's forest buddies have been working independently all this time, we don't know), but that still leaves Girard and Serini to figure out.

With that said, I think we can assume that the gods (excepting the Dark One) count as a side all their own.

[Swordpriest]

My personal thought is that it was a throwaway statement, indicating "there are a lot of sides," and it's only the frenzied literalism of the forums that makes it seem in any way significant. :smallwink:

[Crazeemeel]

My personal thought is that it was a throwaway statement, indicating "there are a lot of sides," and it's only the frenzied literalism of the forums that makes it seem in any way significant. :smallwink:

No, Rich has said in the printed books the specific number 9 as how many sides there are to the gates conflict.

I'm guessing that another side could plausibly be Serini and Girard. They could have secret plans for the gates that we don't know about, but could be considered another side without one.

[Gift Jeraff]

I never understand why some people feel that the Sapphire Guard should count as a separate side. I believe the roaches (or at least Rich at the end of DStP) were talking solely about the conflict over the Gates, not literal factions. Sure their ideals conflict with some of the Order's methods, but half the Order (including their leader) would also comply with them. Of the remaining half, Haley is too smart to go against them (and is skilled enough to hide anything they would detest), V is starting to get sort of reined in, and Belkar is likely going to be dead next time they meet up with the SG.

Sure, there could be some conflict later on, but we already had a paladin go against the OOTS. Plus, I think they both the Order and the Guard know better than to fight people who are helping to save the multiverse.

Anyways, my completely baseless guesses regarding the nine sides:
1. The [Mostly] Good Guys
2. Xykon
3. Redcloak
4. Nale
5. The IFCC
6. Tarquin
7. Tsukiko (she's setting herself up to be heartbroken and hate both the living and the undead, and it may be possible for her to do the ritual on her own)
8. The elves
9. I would say the Dark One, since I feel that Redcloak is starting to see that Right-Eye was right about him, but I'm not sure how he can affect the story without Redcloak (through Jirix, I suppose)

I know the Thieves' Guild is sometimes suggested, especially with Bozzok not dealt with, but I think if he is involved with the struggle, there is a decent chance he is allied with Tarquin's party (assuming they are after the Gates).
I also once thought maybe Eugene might count, but now that I think about it, he is definitely not a contender for the Gates, just a side obstacle for Roy.

[The Pilgrim]

The Nine Sides are obviously:

- The "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" Club
- The Belkar Haters Legion
- The "Miko was Evil" Squad
- The "Miko was dumb but not Evil" Team
- The "V is a guy" Faction
- The "V is a female" Brotherhood
- The "Redcloack is Right" Party

The refrence to the "unknow sides" is a foreshadowing about future polarizations of the Forum Membership due to events yet to come. Since then, those two future factions have been revealed to be:

- The "V is Evil" Covenant
- The "Tarquin is Lawful Neutral" Lobby

And that's basically it.

[Zevox]

No, Rich has said in the printed books the specific number 9 as how many sides there are to the gates conflict.
Where? I do not remember him doing any such thing, and I have all the books.

Anyway, since links were provided to past threads on this, I think I'll just copy & paste what I said last time, as it really hasn't changed much:

Ah, is it that time of month again? Oh well, may as well reply to this one too.

Definite sides;
1) The Order of the Stick
2) Team Evil (Xykon, Tsukiko, their undead minions, MitD)
3) The Goblins (Redcloak, Jirix, their followers, their undead minions, the Dark One)
4) The Linear Guild (Possible conflict of loyalties with Sabine)
5) The IFCC

Possible sides:

- Girard & allies. If V's hypothesis is correct, they will likely qualify.
- The Sapphire Guard. May or may not qualify as one "Team Good" side with the Order. They seem to have more or less the same purpose now, but it's not entirely clear how aligned they are.
- The Order of the Scribble. Unlikely, given how fractured they are now, and the fact that one of the only two remaining members is likely to be on his own side.
- The Elves. The Elves have shown up with Azure City, but so far there's no indication of them getting involved with the Gates. That doesn't mean they won't, however, given one rift is in their lands, and they're helping liberate the location of a second.
- The Dwarves. They will likely show up when we go to Kraagor's Gate, which is said to be far in the north, much like their homeland. Whether they'll become involved with the Gates is entirely up in the air.
- Tarquin & friends. Depends entirely on whether they becomes involved in the struggle over the Gates or end up a side-event to that matter.

"Side" suggestions I've seen that I reject:

- The Gods. They are not active in the conflict over the gates, and as such cannot qualify as a side.
- The Snarl. Same reason as the Gods.
- The Oracle/Dragons. There is no evidence of the Oracle doing anything other than giving his prophecies when asked, and even less that any further Dragons will be involved in the story, much less in the struggle over the Gates.
- Serini. Seems highly unlikely that she wouldn't fit on an existing side - like the Order's - if she does show up later.

Zevox

[PsychoticPanda]

Where? I do not remember him doing any such thing, and I have all the books.

In "Don't spit the party", Rich says it in the commentary for the O-chul section, or round 3. At least I think it is in that section....

[martianmister]

Could "Nine sides" symbolize nine alignments?

LG: Paladins of Azure City
NG: OOTS
CG: Girard and friends?
LN: Tarquin?
TN: Snarl and/or IFCC?
CN: Girard and/or IFCC?
LE: Redcloak and Goblins
NE: Linear Guild and/or IFCC?
CE: Xykon and Tsukiko

[Burner28]

Could "Nine sides" symbolize nine alignments?

LG: Paladins of Azure City
NG: OOTS
CG: Girard and friends?
LN: Tarquin?
TN: Snarl and/or IFCC?
CN: Girard and/or IFCC?
LE: Redcloak and Goblins
NE: Linear Guild and/or IFCC?
CE: Xykon and Tsukiko

okay that doesn't make any sense with Tarquin and the IFCC who are all clearly evil

[martianmister]

okay that doesn't make any sense with Tarquin and the IFCC who are all clearly evil

I know...

But IFCC is "technically" neutral against struggle between Xykon and OOTS according to this comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

And Tarquin can be in neutral side of this conflict, even if his personality is clearly evil.

[Swordpriest]

Since I don't have the book, can anyone confirm exactly what Rich said about the sides in "Don't Split the Party"?

[Gift Jeraff]

Here it is:
OK, OK, fine, how about this then: In the next volume of The Order of the Stick, readers will meet, for the very first time, one of the "nine sides" mentioned by the demon roach in strip #548. That's right, there will be at least one entirely as-yet-unrevealed player in the struggle for the Gates who will be...well, revealed.

Oh and someone will die. But I bet you already knew that, right?

[Zevox]

Here it is:
OK, OK, fine, how about this then: In the next volume of The Order of the Stick, readers will meet, for the very first time, one of the "nine sides" mentioned by the demon roach in strip #548. That's right, there will be at least one entirely as-yet-unrevealed player in the struggle for the Gates who will be,,,well, revealed.

Oh and someone will die. But I bet you already knew that, right?
...which does not say "there are exactly nine sides to the struggle over the gates" at all, it simply references what the roaches said. And what what they said was "at least" nine, i.e. potentially more.

Zevox

[WoodStock_PV]

Maybe it's just the possible nine "sides" in D&D mechanics? Lawful good, Chaotic good, Neutral good, Lawful evil, Chaotic evil, Neutral Evil, Lawful Neutral, Chaotic neutral and True neutral.
Since this alignment chart has much reocurrence in the comic it's seems plausible to me. It's at least nine in the sense that it's at least THESE ones. I'm sorry if this was proposed before.

[Conuly]

Unlikely.

I mean, look at Redcloak and Tarquin. They're both LE - does that mean they're on the same side? Heck, no! And the IFCC aren't the same alignment - but they neither want to help Xykon nor fight each other. Miko obviously isn't in the race, but was she on the same side as Roy in all disputes just because they're both Lawful Good? No, she was not.

The point has been made, repeatedly, that you cannot just sort people by alignment and assume that tells everything important about them. (In fact, the only person to have argued that alignment IS everything about a person was Miko, in her prequel to Start of Darkness. And Miko is crazy - and when it comes right down to it, I've always thought the person she had the most in common with wasn't one of the other paladins (compare her to Hinjo, or to O-Chul - three different iterations of Lawful Good), but Redcloak! Clearly, your personality, your interests, and your goals are determined by something a little more complicated than your race/class/alignment combo.)

[The Pilgrim]

Now speaking seriously, in order for someone to qualify as a "side", it must, from my perspective, fulfill one BIG condition:

- It must have his own agenda, incompatible with the agenda of any other side.

To this extent, we have 5 clearly defined sides, as already mentioned:

1) OOTS
Their agenda is the Main Plotline of the Comic: Protect the McGuffin, Save the World.

2) Xykon
He belives controlling a Gate will give him the power to Rule the World. Through he mostly does it for the eviluz, and he doesn't want to destroy it (yet)

3) Redcloak
He belives controlling a Gate will give his Deity the power to reshape the World and give a fair share of it to the Goblinoids so that they can build a civilization. Unlike Xykon, Redcloak doesn't neglects the possibility of getting the World destroyed.

4) IFFC
Control of a Gate don't seems to be a goal in itself for them, as much as a way to persuade their masters to increase investment in their Department, with the ultimate goal of unifying evil and conquer the Upper Planes.

5) Nale
He doesn't knows what to do with the Gates, should he manages to achieve control of one. But he understands them as a way to keep antagonizing his Brother. Plus, he was seeking some device to adquire enough power to get even with his father.


Additional, possible sides I see:

1) The Gods.
Redcloak already hinted something was strange about the Snarl (when he threatened O'Chul with throwing pepole to the Rift to extract information from him). Blackwing revealed that there is a PLANET inside the Rift. Maybe the Gods are hiding something about the whole issue.

2) Girard.
Many have suggested him being a side. But, like the Azurites, he needs a motivation that really puts him aside the OOTS. What motivation could it be? MAYBE the fact that he suspects something is wrong about the Snarl story, and wants to investigate what's beyond the Gates, not just slam them closed and preserve them shut down. That would be in line with known personality traits like being extremely distrustful about authority.

3) The Dark One
Much like the Gods, the Dark One's Plan may just be a cover-up, and his real agenda is to use the Goblins as pawns for a more self-centered objective, like becoming the Head God.

4) Whatever actually resides INSIDE the Rift
May it be the Snarl, or something else.


Sides I don't really see:

1) The Azurites.
Main problem with them being a side, is that they have no further agenda beyond fulfilling the same objectives as the OOTS. So they don't really qualify as a differenciated side, from my perspective, but only as additional forces of the OOTS side.

2) Tarquin.
Main problem with him is that his agenda isn't related at all to the Gates. At least, as far as we know. Should he become aware of the Gates, he would be inclined to help the OOTS, rather than antagonizing it, like hinted in strip #762. He is a warlord, he wants to conquer the world and keep authority via force of arms and strong central authority, not via some weird mystical mojo that he, being not a magic user, cannot control.

3) Oracle and Tiamat.
Through Tiamat may want to punish V for the Black Dragon issue, she is part of a Main Pantheon, and thus bound to the God's plot (whenever it's really to keep the Snarl under check, or something else).

4) Dorukan and Lirian.
They are not only deceased, but also lack a distinct motivation in order to consider them aside the OOTS (much like the Azurites). Also, for what we know about Dorukan and Lirian, they have been content with shutting down the Gates and have restrained from further investigatin the Rift or the Snarl (unlike, maybe, Giriard).

[Ninja Dragon]

I guess:

1- The Good Guys (OOTS + azurites + elves + whoever else helps them)
2- Xykon (+ Tsuhiko + MITD)
3- Redcloak (+ The Dark One)
4- IFCC
5- Nale

are already defined as separate sides. We have to count the sides by the time they were mentioned in the comic, and all these 5 groups had different, opposite interests at this time, even if they're going to change in the future (I'm assuming IFCC can't predict the future).

The rest if up for speculation. Mine is:

6- The Oracle
7- Tarquin and his allies
8- Girard
9- The Snarl, or whatever is inside the gates.

Serini is probably willing to help the OOTS, giving her personality. So I'd put her with the good guys.

We all know there's more inside the gates than we know, for what Blackwing saw. So I'm not sure the Snarl, or something else, could be a side.

MITD, Sabine, Tsuhiko, the elves and many others may betray their respective groups in the future, but again I'm assuming the IFCC can't predict it.

Sabine currently works for both 4 and 5. She may have to choose one side in the future.

[Crazeemeel]

4) Dorukan and Lirian.
They are not only deceased, but also lack a distinct motivation in order to consider them aside the OOTS (much like the Azurites). Also, for what we know about Dorukan and Lirian, they have been content with shutting down the Gates and have restrained from further investigatin the Rift or the Snarl (unlike, maybe, Giriard).

I'm sorry I can never remember how to do spoiler tags but...

I also find it highly improbable that Dorukan/Lirian are a side to be considered because their souls are ensnared in a gem in Xykon's pocket after he kills them in SoD.

[Boogastreehouse]

This thread gets started over again every few months. It would be great if new incarnations could be merged with the old in situations like this, so that people could get to browse through all the previous posts on the subject, if they like.

Unfortunately, reviving an old thread when you have something new to add to the subject is considered "thread necromancy," and is, for some reason that escapes me, not allowed on this forum. Better, it seems, to have the same thread start up over and over again, covering much of the same ground that was covered before, by posters unaware of the original thread. I don't pretend to understand the merits of doing it this way. I just do what I'm told.

I started a thread on this subject a while back. That thread can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6857595#post6857595) My breakdown was as follows:


Xykon --the lich who wants to take control of the gates, mainly just because he can. His pawns include Tsukiko, Redcloak (who actually belongs to another side), and the MiD (who will probably turn on him)

The Gods --beings who want to keep the Snarl imprisoned, for their own protection and incidentally for the benefit of the world. They have a lot in common with the Mortals United to Defeat Xykon, but would probably abandon the mortals to save themselves. The gods who were/are secretly aiding The Dark One (Loki, I think? And Rat? And Tiamat?) might be on that side, or belong to a faction of their own.

The Snarl --a creature that wants to unmake the world. No known pawns.

The Mortals United (more or less) to Defeat Xykon --This faction is different from the gods, because it has been implied that the gods might just wait and see what happens—they'll hide somewhere safe again if the world gets another wipe and just re-boot it again later. The mortals on the other hand intend to fight to survive. This faction so far includes The Sapphire Guard, their allies the Elves, probably the Dwarves and, of course, the Order of the Stick.

Inhabitants of the Inner World --Any people living on the world that exists within the Snarl probably have their own priorities, though what they are remains unknown at this time. Perhaps they want to see the Snarl destroyed, or maybe that's the last thing that they want. Maybe the Greek Pantheon is in there, too. Their agenda, if they have one (if they even know about the outside world... and assuming there are even people on this planet!) remains uncertain.

The IFCC --An Infernal Alliance that now knows of the gates that imprison the Snarl. Their stated goal is to storm the Gates of Heaven in a properly Milton-like fashion, probably using the Snarl as a weapon. Assuming they're telling the truth. Their pawns include The Linear Guild, Quaar, and now that they have a brief claim on Vaarsuvius' soul, he/she is probably their ace-in-the-hole.

The Dark One --that Redcloak worships. I have yet to read any of the material not online (Start of Darkness, etc...) but I have gleaned from other people's comments thatthe Dark One is prepared to use the Snarl unmake civilization. Now that the Dark One is a god, he expects to be able to survive the destruction, like the gods managed to do last time, and then be a part of the process of remaking the next world.

Tarquin's party/the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears --We haven't enough information at this time to conclude that they are or will be a faction.

Girard/Serini/survivors or minions of the Order of the Scribble. --We haven't enough information at this time to conclude that they are or will be a faction.

The Oracle/Tiamat/their teleporting-and-ressurecting-lizard-folk-buddies --We haven't enough information at this time to conclude that they are or will be a faction.

[hamishspence]

The Dark One --that Redcloak worships. I have yet to read any of the material not online (Start of Darkness, etc...) but I have gleaned from other people's comments thatthe Dark One is prepared to use the Snarl unmake civilization. Now that the Dark One is a god, he expects to be able to survive the destruction, like the gods managed to do last time, and then be a part of the process of remaking the next world.

In SoD, it appears to be:
not his goal, but a reason why the situation is "win-win" (if the world is unmade, and a new world created to rebind the Snarl, he will be able to ensure that goblins in the new world, will not get such bad treatment as the gods gave them at the start of this world.

His goal is to take command of a gate, and use the threat of dropping an open gate in a deity's throne room, as an instrument of coercion, in order to ensure that goblins get a "better deal" than they did when the gods first created them as XP fodder for adventuring clerics.

[Barlen]

It would seem several of these sides might be considered "retired" from the field of play at this point. Dorukan, Lirian, and the Sapphire guard (Soon) were all defending gates and therefore involved in the conflict directly. If you group all 3 together either as the "order of the scribble" or just those who are defending the gates then Girard and Serini most likely join them in this view point. If you view them separably then Girard and possibly Serini are also their own sides.
A third option here is that the 5 break down into subgroups which represent their own sides (Dorukan & Lirian, Soon & the Sapphire guard, Girard and possibly Serini) leaving us with 3 (possibly 4 sides).

Without that clarified it is impossible to count how many sides we have seen and how many might still be out there.

Personally I go with the order of the scribble breaking down into 5 sides (one each with the Sapphire guard being an extension of Soon) each guarding a gate. That leaves us with 4 sides to figure out: The order of the stick, Xykon, The Dark one (represented by Redcloak), one other.

The final one could be the IFCC (with Nale and co being counted with them as pawns). They don't want a resolution to the conflict, and that may or may not count them out.

[veti]

The Nine Sides are obviously:
(etc.)
And that's basically it.

Thread won. Nice work, Pilgrim.

[valce]

The Nine Sides are obviously:

- The "Belkar is Chaotic Neutral" Club
- The Belkar Haters Legion
- The "Miko was Evil" Squad
- The "Miko was dumb but not Evil" Team
- The "V is a guy" Faction
- The "V is a female" Brotherhood
- The "Redcloack is Right" Party

The refrence to the "unknow sides" is a foreshadowing about future polarizations of the Forum Membership due to events yet to come. Since then, those two future factions have been revealed to be:

- The "V is Evil" Covenant
- The "Tarquin is Lawful Neutral" Lobby

And that's basically it.

You win Pilgrim. (Well, you spelled 'unknown' wrong, but I'll overlook it this time ;))

[DeltaEmil]

Haerta Bloodsoak could be one of the nine possible sides interested in the gates.

Sure, she should be counted as a minion from the IFFC, but Nero has to send somebody to regain her, and she was noted to be the most powerful of the three damned soul... and with the power of the snarl, she could unmake reality and hurt all and anything in creation that has wronged her... like the arch fiends...