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Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 10:59 AM
Was planning to play an Ambush Drake (MM3, but there's a 7 level no LA class progression here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) and I was wondering what kind of classes/feats would go best with it. Obviously casting classes won't work, but I was thinking totemist or a tome of battle class might. Also is there any way of getting more racial hit dice?

LOTRfan
2010-11-28, 11:30 AM
... I love WOTC. Its little things like draconic racial classes that make me happy.

Anyways, Draconomicon is your friend. It has feats and dragon-only prestige classes.

As for feats, you have a poison attack, so you qualify for Poison resistance and then poison immunity from savage species. Also in savage species is bonus breath and Ability focus, to further make use of your breath weapon. To make poison stronger, virulent poison and (if your Con score of 19 or higher) Deadly poison are also from Savage Species.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 12:00 PM
Con 19 is a pre-req for quicken breath, so I'll have that already. Deadly poison looks pretty fun =)
Anyway I was thinking of adding levels of Thayan Gladiator from champions of ruin which would give me multiple bite attacks per round. If I poison someone 3 times in a round do they take the dex damage 3 times?

Akal Saris
2010-11-28, 12:02 PM
Things to optimize:
1. Poison attacks - lots of options here, Savage Species is the best place to start
2. Natural attacks - Multiattack, etc
3. Breath Weapon + 1-2 Metabreath feats from Draconomicon - I'd get Quicken Breath and Heighten Breath
4. Flight + Flyby Attack and maybe Hover
5. Dragon type. Alter Self is good, great skills, saves, HP, and BAB.

Looking at all the useful feat options you have above, 2 levels of fighter wouldn't hurt at all. Past that, I'd go for one of the martial adept classes. Warblade is probably the best option, but swordsage would be a lot of fun!

Pyrewing, Ambush Drake 7/Swordsage 13
BAB +16, Initiator Level 16

Feats:
1: City Slicker [RoD: Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, and
Knowledge (local) are always class skills for you]
3: Darkstalker [Lords of Madness - can hide from almost anything]
6: Flyby Attack
8: WF: Claw [Swordsage Bonus]
9: Quicken Breath
12: Adaptive Style
15: Craven [When in the Shadow Hand Stance]
18: Master Air [the +20ft fly speed feat if I recall]

Just a basic assassin-style character, designed for hit-and-run attacks.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 12:03 PM
Thankee kindly. One last question, anyone know of any ways to add more skills to the racial skill list?? 6+int skills per level and it seems a shame to only have hide/move silently/spot/listen.

dspeyer
2010-11-28, 12:07 PM
I don't think that progression was intended for PCs. It talks about the elite array, gives CRs, and describes what ages you're likely to encounter. More to the point, it gives the full power of the monster at an equivalent of LA=0.

If you're in a party with optimized full casters, it'll probably be all right, but as WOTC generally figures balance, this is way too strong.

LOTRfan
2010-11-28, 12:10 PM
The point of racial classes like this is to allow PCs to play them and for DMs to utilize them at lower levels.

When it comes to the skill list, I would ask your DM if he would be lenient and add another 3-4 skills.

Akal Saris
2010-11-28, 12:15 PM
The intent was probably for DMs to use them, but I don't see much harm in asking a DM to allow this class if you're in a high-powered game. The DM can always adjust the class to balance the PC as necessary.

For more class skills, City Slicker is my favorite feat, but here you go:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 12:15 PM
If you're in a party with optimized full casters, it'll probably be all right, but as WOTC generally figures balance, this is way too strong.

Do you really think so? You get non scaling spell resistance, +6 NA, +4 con +2 str -4 int, fly speed, two claws and a bite and slow as a SLA. If there was a prestige class that granted over 7 levels that I'd regard it as decent but not great, especially considering that most of that is obtainable with something like Alter Self.

Edit: Also as a dragon good BAB, d12 hit dice and all 3 saves high but I'd say that's balanced out by having a skill list even a commoner would laugh at.

LOTRfan
2010-11-28, 12:23 PM
Actually, looking back, the fact that it has no LA is slightly.... odd.

But, if your DM is fine with it, go crazy.

Deadly Poison has virulent poison as a prerequisite, which sucks, but if you plan on putting the poison to good use, it might be worth the loss of a feat.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 12:34 PM
I figure the lack of LA is because ambush drake is about as strong as 7 levels in a prestige class.

Anyway I quite like virulent poison, it's just ability focus by another name. By the time the secondary damage hits the fight's usually over anyway, so deadly poison's not always useful. On the other hand the ambush drake is just made for hit and run tactics, so I guess it would be good.

LOTRfan
2010-11-28, 12:40 PM
If you are using hit and run tactics like the common ambush drake, you might want to find a way to increase speed. The quicker you can get yourself out of harms way, the better.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 12:49 PM
I remember a feat in the draconomicon that would increase my movement and fly speeds to 50', that should help.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-28, 01:57 PM
You'll probably want to take levels in something that grants armor proficiency, or something that grants an unarmored AC bonus, or both (Swordsage). I'd get the feats Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from the Draconomicon, which probably means sticking to high BAB classes. Those will give you iterative attacks with your claws, so you'll benefit more from making a full attack.

I'd probably go Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2, to get Improved Trip, use the Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) variant for Rage so you'll get two bites on a full attack, and use the Lion spiritual totem ACF in Complete Champion to trade Fast Movement for Pounce, to be able to full attack when you charge. Get Multiattack, Improved Initiative, and Power Attack, and if you can use flaws get Improved Multiattack and Improved Flight from RotW. Spend your 9th level feat on Extra Rage from CW so you can use your Whirling Frenzy 3/day. You'll want to get Rapidstrike (claws) and Improved Rapidstrike at levels 12 and 15. Spend your Dragon skill points on your four class skills plus cross-class ranks in Concentration and Intimidate, and with your Barbarian levels try to max out your Intimidate skill. From there take Ghost-Faced Killer in Complete Adventurer, and keep in mind that its Ghost Step ability doesn't go away when you attack. An obvious choice for your 18th level feat would be Craven, since Sudden Strike is treated as equivalent to Sneak Attack for qualifications. That makes for an extremely combat-focused character who's also a dangerous predator and capable scout.

Last Laugh
2010-11-28, 02:05 PM
I remember a feat in the draconomicon that would increase my movement and fly speeds to 50', that should help.

Improved speed from Draconomicon increases fly speed by 20' and other speeds by 10' (always wanted to use this on a swiftwing for +40' speed)

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 02:32 PM
Cheers Biffonaicus. In terms of armour I'm either thinking the traditional mithral breastplate or 1 level of both monk and fist of the forest.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-28, 05:41 PM
Monk wouldn't be a bad idea, use your unarmed strikes as primary with iterative attacks and make your claw and bite attacks as secondary. With (Improved) Rapidstrike you'll still get iteratives with your claws, and (Improved) Multiattack is even more beneficial in this case. An alternative would be to get a Monk's Belt and get a 1d8 Unarmed Strike and your Wisdom bonus to AC unarmored without sacrificing any BAB, and still be able to go Barbarian 2/ Ghost-Faced Killer. Whirling Frenzy is about as good as Flurry of Blows anyway, and with a high Con score it's going to last considerably long.

Another option would be to go Unarmed Swordsage, in which case you could still get Rapidstrike at 12th level but Improved Rapidstrike would have to wait until 18th. I'd probably go Dragon 7/ Unarmed Swordsage 1/ Fist of the Forest 1/ Unarmed Swordsage+, and use a lot of Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, and Desert Wind maneuvers, with the obligatory Shadow Hand teleports and enough Diamond Mind to get Hearing the Air. In this case you'll want Multiattack, Power Attack, and Great Fortitude at 1-6, Adaptive Style at 9th, Improved Multiattack at 12, Rapidstrike at 15, and Improved Rapidstrike at 18. If you can use flaws you can put Improved Multiattack earlier and get Improved Flight and Improved Speed.

Runestar
2010-11-28, 06:22 PM
I figure the lack of LA is because ambush drake is about as strong as 7 levels in a prestige class.

Yeah, they finally woke up. Like how many years after releasing savage species? :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-11-29, 12:48 AM
I don't think that progression was intended for PCs. It talks about the elite array, gives CRs, and describes what ages you're likely to encounter. More to the point, it gives the full power of the monster at an equivalent of LA=0.

If you're in a party with optimized full casters, it'll probably be all right, but as WOTC generally figures balance, this is way too strong.

I'm guessing you haven't heard of racial progression classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) before, but that's the point, eliminating the level adjustment and just making it levels that are taken at will. But, no, it's not overpowered, the lack of actual class features for 7 levels is pretty disadvantageous.

LA is overvalued by WOTC anyway.

The elite array bit was a bit wonky, but probably should be interpreted as what they went with for creating the character that they created the progression class for.

OP: Unless you want to keep the poison, I'd recommend grabbing a mouthpick (Lords of Madness, +1 bonus equivalent property) spiked chain or executioner's mace or other two-handed weapon for your primary weapon for iterative attacks. And if you do want to keep the poison and use a weapon, you might just arrange with the DM to milk your poison into an applied poison.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-29, 01:33 AM
Yeah, but if I do that I'll have to reapply. The way it is currently I can bite 3 times a round, much better poison application that way.

Coidzor
2010-11-29, 01:45 AM
I just thought of something. Duskblade with poison spell. 13th level duskblade gets the channeling with the full attack. You could get poison on all of your attacks, even your claws/unarmed strike without even needing to take it out of your mouth or apply it or bite (meaning you could mouthpick weapon) plus a damaging spell such as shocking grasp or chill touch.

Of course, this would be at level 20 if you took all 7 levels of ambush drake.

Darrin
2010-11-29, 07:56 AM
Was planning to play an Ambush Drake (MM3, but there's a 7 level no LA class progression here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) and I was wondering what kind of classes/feats would go best with it.


Interesting... WotC refers to this as a "Template Class" rather than a "Monster Class", which may mean that they're referring to the Savage Progression template classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), which do *not* have to be taken in order... and if that is the case, then after you take your first Ambush Drake level, you could multiclass into something else for the next 19 levels.



Obviously casting classes won't work


Your Wisdom or Charisma should still be decent, so you could fit in Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord with a bit of wrangling.

Other ideas... someone already mentioned Duskblade 13. Warblade was also mentioned, but with the Int penalty Crusader makes more sense. I like the Monk idea, iterative unarmed strikes + natural attacks, but I would probably go with Battle Dancer, Fist of the Forest, or Shou Disciple to keep full BAB. Totemist is very tempting, though.

I'd love to see if I could get an Ambush Drake into Hidecarved Dragon, but I can't quite figure out how to get Natural Armor up to +20 by ECL 8 without polymorph shenanigans.

I also have this sick urge to get an Ambush Drake into Fochlucan Lyrist... I think it can be done with Skill Knowledge/Apprentice, Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open Least Chakra. Ambush Drake 7/Druid 1/Bard 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 might work with a lot of skill point finagling.