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Rasman
2010-11-28, 07:26 PM
I've seen threads about how Persistent Spell for Clerics is uber because of Divine Metamagic, but what about Arcane? What are the best/cheesiest spells to Persist for a Wizard or Sorcerer?

?means I'm not totally sure, but I believe it can be, correct me if I'm wrong though

Persistable Spells:

0-
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Read Magic
Seeker's Chant
Nosy Neighbor
Resistance


1-
Alarm
Deep Breath
Air Bubble
Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos
Ironguts
Shield
Grease?
Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist?
Appraising Touch
Arrow Mind
Comprehend Languages?
Detect Secret Doors?
Detect Undead?
Golem Strike
Guided Shot?
Identify
Scholar's Touch
Disguise Self
Friendly Face
Serene Visage
Accelerated Movement
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Eyes of the Avoral
Fist of Stone
Float
Jump
Kaupaer’s Skittish Nerves
Laeral’s Cutting Hand
Low Light Vision
Magic Weapon
Reduce Person
Nightshield
Karmic Aura

2-
Dagger Spell Stance
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy
Blades of Fire?
Web?
Balancing Lorecall
Detect Thoughts
Listening Lorecall
Marked Man?
See Invisibility
Bladeweave
Blur
Mirror Image?
Misrepresent Alignment
Reflective Disguise
Shadow Mask
Death Armor
Shroud of Undeath
Alter Self
Bear's Endurance
Blindsight
Body of the Sun
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Darkvision
Eagle's Splendor
Fox's Cunning
Fly, Swift?
Mountain Stance
Owl's Wisdom
Returning Weapon?
Scent
Spider Climb
Swim
Wraithstrike

3-
Earthen Grace
Magic Circle Against BlahBlahBlah
Nondetection
Protection from Energy?
Mage Armor, Greater
Arcane Sight
Telepathic Bond, Lesser?
Tongues
Heroism
Daylight?
Manyjaws?
Displacement
Shadowslip
Spectral Weapon
Amorphous Form?
Blink
Burrow
Deeper Darkvision
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste
Keen Edge
Lash of the Kraken
Magic Weapon, Greater
Scorpion Tail
Spiderskin
Tremorsense
Walk the Mountain's Path
Water Breathing
Weapon of Impact
Dragonskin
Spellcaster's Bane
Karmic Backlash

With Easy Metamagic

4-
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser?
Ilyykur’s Mantle
Resist Energy, Mass
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fire Shield
Cold Shield
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere?
Radiant Shield
Thunderlance
Invisibility, Greater
Darkvision, Mass
Enlarge Person, Mass
Polymorph
Reduce Person, Mass
Spell Enhancer?

olelia
2010-11-28, 07:35 PM
Timestop....even though its questionable how useful it is..and ...if its even possible.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-28, 07:35 PM
I've seen threads about how Persistent Spell for Clerics is uber because of Divine Metamagic, but what about Arcane? What are the best/cheesiest spells to Persist for a Wizard or Sorcerer?
The big cheese for it is to avoid the metamagic costs. Clerics have Divine Metamagic, Wizards have Incantatrix.

As for spells?

Shapechange, Time Stop (potentially, there's some funny rulings on that one), Prismatic Sphere (OK, that one's just hilarious, especially combined with Invisible Spell (Cityscape)), Greater Arcane Sight, Mislead, ... basically any buff a Wizard would want to use, provided it's Persistable to begin with.

Rasman
2010-11-28, 07:47 PM
The big cheese for it is to avoid the metamagic costs. Clerics have Divine Metamagic, Wizards have Incantatrix.

As for spells?

Shapechange, Time Stop (potentially, there's some funny rulings on that one), Prismatic Sphere (OK, that one's just hilarious, especially combined with Invisible Spell (Cityscape)), Greater Arcane Sight, Mislead, ... basically any buff a Wizard would want to use, provided it's Persistable to begin with.

I sadly don't have room in my build for the class, I'm just looking at normally persistable spells.

I WILL probably be taking Easy Metamagic though, so I could persist up to 4th level spells, if I wanted.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-28, 08:37 PM
1st:
Swift Expeditious Retreat (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Nightshield (SC)
Karmic Aura (PH2)

2nd:
Swift Fly (SC)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Bladeweave (SC)

3rd:
Displacement (PHB)
Dragonskin (SC)
Spellcaster's Bane (PH2)
Karmic Backlash (PH2)

4th:
Ray Deflection (SC)
Thunderlance (SC)
Dragon Breath (SC)
Greater Mirror Image (PH2)

There are quite a few hour/level buffs which you should also consider using every day, especially Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire from Complete Mage. You can cast Greater Magic Weapon on your Thunderlance, and be sure to get Combat Reflexes. Moment of Prescience should always be up, and you can apply it to your initiative roll since at that level acting first is often the deciding factor in combat. You can use Dragon Breath with Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders so you'll only be dazed upon first casting it and every time you breathe anyone you damage with it will risk being knocked prone and stunned.

Additionally, you should be casting (Rod of) Extended Energy Immunity x3 on yourself every other day, and Extended Energy Immunity x2 plus Extended Superior Resistance on yourself on the days in between. Get a Pearl of Power to recover one of the Energy Immunities each day, and it will only cost you two spells slots per day to be continually immune to all five energy types and get a +6 Resistance bonus on all saving throws. Mind Blank every day is highly recommended.

Wear +1 Armor Spikes with the Spellblade property on them, from PGtF, set to block Greater Dispel Magic. Any time Greater Dispel Magic is cast in the single-target mode on your character, it will be automatically blocked and you can even redirect it back to them on your next turn. Also put Defending on them and with Greater Magic Weapon they'll give you +5 AC all day. You can use two +1 Defending Gauntlets with Greater Magic Weapon to get another +5 AC from each, and they can hold other properties such as Eager, Warning, and Parrying. Get a large metal dome made and cast Shrink Item on it, and wear it as a helmet. If you would be affected by an Antimagic Field, the Shrink Item spell will be suppressed and it will turn back into a huge dome, completely shielding your character. The dome will block line of effect for the AMF so it will no longer affect you, so you'll be able to teleport out from under the dome and out of the AMF.

Rasman
2010-11-28, 09:01 PM
1st:
Swift Expeditious Retreat (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Nightshield (SC)
Karmic Aura (PH2)

2nd:
Swift Fly (SC)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Bladeweave (SC)

3rd:
Displacement (PHB)
Dragonskin (SC)
Spellcaster's Bane (PH2)
Karmic Backlash (PH2)

4th:
Ray Deflection (SC)
Thunderlance (SC)
Dragon Breath (SC)
Greater Mirror Image (PH2)

There are quite a few hour/level buffs which you should also consider using every day, especially Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire from Complete Mage. You can cast Greater Magic Weapon on your Thunderlance, and be sure to get Combat Reflexes. Moment of Prescience should always be up, and you can apply it to your initiative roll since at that level acting first is often the deciding factor in combat. You can use Dragon Breath with Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electricity, and Born of the Three Thunders so you'll only be dazed upon first casting it and every time you breathe anyone you damage with it will risk being knocked prone and stunned.

Additionally, you should be casting (Rod of) Extended Energy Immunity x3 on yourself every other day, and Extended Energy Immunity x2 plus Extended Superior Resistance on yourself on the days in between. Get a Pearl of Power to recover one of the Energy Immunities each day, and it will only cost you two spells slots per day to be continually immune to all five energy types and get a +6 Resistance bonus on all saving throws. Mind Blank every day is highly recommended.

Wear +1 Armor Spikes with the Spellblade property on them, from PGtF, set to block Greater Dispel Magic. Any time Greater Dispel Magic is cast in the single-target mode on your character, it will be automatically blocked and you can even redirect it back to them on your next turn. Also put Defending on them and with Greater Magic Weapon they'll give you +5 AC all day. You can use two +1 Defending Gauntlets with Greater Magic Weapon to get another +5 AC from each, and they can hold other properties such as Eager, Warning, and Parrying. Get a large metal dome made and cast Shrink Item on it, and wear it as a helmet. If you would be affected by an Antimagic Field, the Shrink Item spell will be suppressed and it will turn back into a huge dome, completely shielding your character. The dome will block line of effect for the AMF so it will no longer affect you, so you'll be able to teleport out from under the dome and out of the AMF.

that...is redunkulously awesome...sadly this spell list is MOSTLY for a Sorcerer and not a Wizard

the 16 level build is...

Spellthief1/Sorcerer4/Unseen Seer2/Spellwarp Sniper5/Arcane Trickster4

at the moment I'm just digging though what I find on Chet Erez's website, but I REALLY need to hit the Spell Compendium

Vonotar
2010-11-28, 09:09 PM
If you would be affected by an Antimagic Field, the Shrink Item spell will be suppressed and it will turn back into a huge dome, completely shielding your character.

I really like the mental image that gave me, like a magical turtle.

Rasman
2010-11-28, 10:13 PM
Timestop....even though its questionable how useful it is..and ...if its even possible.

if you're trying to stall someone then it's the "I win" button

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-28, 10:15 PM
Ghostform, Mystic Shield, and Starmantle

Rasman
2010-11-28, 10:23 PM
Ghostform, Mystic Shield, and Starmantle

what are the spell levels and source books?

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-28, 10:31 PM
what are the spell levels and source books?

8, 8, and 6

Spell Compendium, Anauroch: Empire of Shade, Book of Exalted Deeds

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-28, 10:41 PM
Runestaffs, in MIC, allow you to expand the list of spells you can cast each day.

To set the price of a runestaff, multiply the level of the high*
est-level spell in the runestaff by itself, then by 400 gp. For each
additional spell in the runestaff, square that spell's level and mul*
tiply by 200 gp. Add the values together to find the final price of
the runestaff. If a spell can be used less than three times per day,
reduce the gp multiplier for that spell by 100 per use below three
(or 50 per use below three, for spells after the first).
If you get Ancestral Relic (BoED) or Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) you can craft it yourself without taking any item creation feats and without meeting any of the prerequisites to make it. Example

Mind Blank (8th) 1/day: 8x8x400 (highest level), -200 (two less than 3/day) = 25,400 gp
Energy Immunity (7th) 3/day: 7x7x200 = 9800 gp
Superior Resistance (6th) 1/day: 6x6x200, -100 = 7100 gp
(any 4th level spell, 1/day): 4x4x200, -100 = 3100 gp
(any 3rd level spell, 1/day): 3x3x200, -100 = 1700 gp
(any 2nd level spell, 1/day): 2x2x200, -100 = 700 gp
(any 1st level spell, 1/day): 1x1x200, -100 = 100 gp

There is no set limit to the number of spells that can be made available by a single runestaff, just add those prices together. You can put every spell you want to Persist on it, you can put every hour/level buff you want to keep active on it, you can put every 24 hour buff you want to keep active on it. Put any utility spell that you want to have on hand just in case on there. Put Identify on there usable 1/day, you won't need it any more often than that given its cast time. Limited Wish 1/day isn't a bad idea either.

Endarire
2010-11-28, 10:41 PM
Starmantle is from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Fizban
2010-11-28, 11:59 PM
I don't think there are really any arcane spells worth persisting normally. The only time I've really used it is in Neverwinter Nights 2. Since Haste in that game speeds up your spellcasting (effectively 3.0 haste), and you're allowed to persist it, you can pretend you're playing NWN 1 with all of it's constant Haste items. But that's neither as useful nor legal in the actual game.

Stallion
2010-11-29, 03:07 AM
Any figment spell as the cheese Shadowcraft Mage, if you can fit it in.

dextercorvia
2010-11-29, 12:27 PM
For your character, I would recommend Sniper's Shot (SpC). It's a level 1 spell that allows you to make SA at any distance.

Rasman
2010-11-29, 04:01 PM
For your character, I would recommend Sniper's Shot (SpC). It's a level 1 spell that allows you to make SA at any distance.

lol...already on it, actually out of the Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide there's a Magic Item, Sniper Goggles, that does the same thing as the spell, so I'm not TOO worried about it and it saves me a spell slot.


Any figment spell as the cheese Shadowcraft Mage, if you can fit it in.

I wish I could fit Shadowcraft Mage into the build, but, again, not enough room for it. I didn't quite understand what you were getting at at first...and then I went to the SCM Handbook and 1+1=9 now. So foul...


I don't think there are really any arcane spells worth persisting normally. The only time I've really used it is in Neverwinter Nights 2. Since Haste in that game speeds up your spellcasting (effectively 3.0 haste), and you're allowed to persist it, you can pretend you're playing NWN 1 with all of it's constant Haste items. But that's neither as useful nor legal in the actual game.

maybe not for a regular caster, but I think Buff Spells are ALWAYS awesome for persisting

Persistant Fly, Swift with Easy Metamagic, that's just a 7th level slot for "I fly, all the time" stack that with Easy Metamagiced Invisibility, Greater and you Fly and are Invisible ALL THE TIME. Take Invisible Spell as a feat and you're a stealth bomber throwing precision Fire Balls that just look like ground is exploding. Throw in Silent Spell and there's no way of telling where they're coming from unless you work for CSI and you have enough time to analyze the direction the scorch marks or the direction the dead bodies of your comrades flew.

As you can tell, I'm SLOWLY working on my list of "That's awesome, I'll do that" spells since a Sorcerer is KINDA limited on that sort of stuff.

mikethepoor
2010-11-29, 06:57 PM
If you're interested in persisting spells higher than 4th level, you might be able to pull off some tricks with the ultimate magus PrC. The problem you run into there is delayed spell level progression.

Rasman
2010-11-29, 07:30 PM
If you're interested in persisting spells higher than 4th level, you might be able to pull off some tricks with the ultimate magus PrC. The problem you run into there is delayed spell level progression.

well, I wasn't really looking at trying to OVERLY cheese it for that

I think a Permanently invisible Spellthief that Sneak Attacks with Invisible Rays and still requires everything that DOESN'T have Trueseeing to make Perception Checks to detect him anyway is Cheese enough, especially when you mix in Invisible Cloud of Knives. Not to mention he can take his "Buff" spells and convert them into Untyped Rays that deal Flat Damage and aren't affected by SR or DR. He's a regular Green Bay Packer...