DnD 3.5 Dervish Build Questions

[theonesin]

I want to play a Dervish for an upcoming campaign, and I'm trying to figure out what base classes to lead up into it. Currently the party lacks a Rogue, so while not quite the same, I want to work the Scout into the build in it's place. Now I don't want to go pure Scout into Dervish, so I want to add either Fighter or Swashbuckler.

My problem is that I'm not sure what order to take each base class, and in what amounts.

My other question depends on if I have any Swashbuckler levels. They get free Weapon Finesse, but it's not compatible with scimitars until Dervish level 1. Yet, the PrC requires Weapon Focus in a slashing weapon. Would it be too weird to take Weapon Focus in some non-scimitar slashing weapon to get the prerequisite, then after entering Dervish, retraining to Weapon Focus (Scimitar)? I don't see how it would cause problems since it's a slashing weapon and doesn't go against the prereq.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dervish Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870778/The_Dervish_Handbook)

[Stallion]

Why use a dex base? Dervish is an AMAZING class for battlefield control if you make it into a tripper. 4 Fighter/1 scout/3 warblade/10 dervish/2 bloodclaw master dual wielding kukris. Beasty. Especially if you can implement the Knock-Down feat from Sword and Fist (I know, I know, 3.0).



Edit: Oops. Ninja'ed.

[theonesin]

I already read that Handbook. That's where I got the idea to even use those base classes. It still didn't quite answer my question though.

[Stallion]

What level are you starting on?

[theonesin]

I actually don't know yet, so I'm just assuming level 1 for the time being. The DM is new, so I don't think any "iffy" 3.0 stuff will fly.

[Tvtyrant]

I think that would be acceptable. The scimitars aren't going to do much for you until you get the Dervish levels, so might as well retrain (if your DM is okay with it). RAW it would work, so retraining is between you and your DM.

[theonesin]

I think a while back when I was trying to make a Dervish tripper, someone talked me out of it, saying it would be too weak.

I don't know if it matters, but the party so far is made up of a Cleric/Wizard (I guess the Wizard part is a planned multiclass), and a Samurai. One other player mentioned making three characters, with the first two taken, leaving a monk, so they might play that.

Will someone focused on tripping mesh well with that? I was originally just going to focus on TWF and dealing damage (I'm honestly not well versed in alternative melee actions like tripping).

[Tvtyrant]

I think a while back when I was trying to make a Dervish tripper, someone talked me out of it, saying it would be too weak.

I don't know if it matters, but the party so far is made up of a Cleric/Wizard (I guess the Wizard part is a planned multiclass), and a Samurai. One other player mentioned making three characters, with the first two taken, leaving a monk, so they might play that.

Will someone focused on tripping mesh well with that? I was originally just going to focus on TWF and dealing damage (I'm honestly not well versed in alternative melee actions like tripping).

Tripping is Str based, so it depends on if your going for Oversized TWF Dervish or not. If one of your party members is a Samurai and the other is going to be a MT your not going to run into problems being too weak as a Dervish.

Dervish isn't as good as a pouncing Barbarian, but it is still much better then a Samurai, so your safe. One thing to remember is that scimitars have a higher crit range then most weapons, so if you take improved crit and other crit increasing feats you can get vorpal scimitars. With a 15-20 crit range you are almost certain to get a crit at least once per round at high levels, which with vorpal blades means your attacks are essentially SoD's.

[Eldariel]

Tripping is Str based, so it depends on if your going for Oversized TWF Dervish or not. If one of your party members is a Samurai and the other is going to be a MT your not going to run into problems being too weak as a Dervish.

Eh, the one thing an Str Dervish requires is high stat array. OTWF is completely unnecessary; an Str Dervish simply requires high enough Dex to pick up the TWF-line while pumping Str with all he's got for Tripping. Wood Elves work well in that end of the deal, but the Int and Con hits make life difficult.

But yeah, ideally, you'll just want your two highest stats to be Str and Dex, and you want a REALLY high Dex since GTWF requires 19 Dex and if you aren't getting it eventually (ideally they'd just be one feat; that'd make sense), you're really just wasting your time. Basically, you have to expect to hit 19 Dex without level-ups. Depending on magic item allowances and such, it may be trivial or "very hard".


If you do get a sufficient stat array to pull it off, it's quite a bit better than a Dex-based build simply because it does all the same but with less feat use and with more options (notably, Knock-Down based tripping on every attack which you can spread out over a large number of foes).

[Tvtyrant]

I only mention OTWF because you can't power attack with scimitars as a Dervish, so if your pumping strength anyway your going to want the extra damage output.

I would just crank dex myself, since your using a sneak attack base and you want to hit with all of the attacks.

If I was going Dervish I would go maxed Dex and put effort into critting and either vorpal or burst weapons, since they are scimitars.

[theonesin]

Ok, I've confirmed that we'll also have a Barbarian in the party too.

Anyway, I'm still kind of confused on how to build up a tripping character, since the Dervish Handbook didn't really say much on it from what I could tell. Or if I should just forgo tripping and go the high-crit route. Whatever I do, I definitely want Scout in there to cover the party's trapfinding needs.

[Tvtyrant]

Not sure why you like the trip aspect, but basically you get a trip attempt for each attack you make. So you just crank Str and get Improved Trip like a fighter would, and you can make trips against anyone along your attack route (as many as you have attacks anyway).

[theonesin]

I didn't say I necessarily liked it. I'm just trying to examine all of my options. Though honestly, I'd probably have more fun just killing things than trying to trip them up.

[Eldariel]

I didn't say I necessarily liked it. I'm just trying to examine all of my options. Though honestly, I'd probably have more fun just killing things than trying to trip them up.

Generally tripping comes in addition to attacks and thus does not negatively impact killing things (in fact, it's positive since -4 AC is nice for your iterative Hit Chance).

[Tvtyrant]

...I just realized that a Devish could TWF with Sunblades and make full round attacks every single turn. :O Two Greatswords doing full round attacks every turn? Yes please.

Anyway, other then the crazy damage you would get from the above, the best thing is still probably burst weapons or vorpal. Burst has the advantage of being cheaper and adding damage on normal attacks, vorpal instantly kills critted foes.

[Eldariel]

...I just realized that a Devish could TWF with Sunblades and make full round attacks every single turn. :O Two Greatswords doing full round attacks every turn? Yes please.

Bastard Sword, actually. And weapon damage dice are a small part of the composite damage; getting a stat to damage is much, much better for example (this side of Colossal creatures).


Anyway, other then the crazy damage you would get from the above, the best thing is still probably burst weapons or vorpal. Burst has the advantage of being cheaper and adding damage on normal attacks, vorpal instantly kills critted foes.

Burst is overpriced even with 15-20/x2 crits. You could get two elementals for the same price. And Vorpal only kills on natural 20s. Besides, inherent damage sources > weapon abilities.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know, a 1 in 4 chance of a burst is pretty good. Anyway, what would you suggest to boost damage then?

[Greenish]

I only mention OTWF because you can't power attack with scimitars as a Dervish, so if your pumping strength anyway your going to want the extra damage output.Oversized TWF is pretty poor feat for increasing your damage, since it only boosts your offhand's damage by 1 or so (d6 -> d8).

Though since you're not using scimitars, you could pick up PA too.

[Tvtyrant]

Oversized TWF is pretty poor feat for increasing your damage, since it only boosts your offhand's damage by 1 or so (d6 -> d8).

Though since you're not using scimitars, you could pick up PA too.

You can't power attack with scimitars as a dervish, which is why I was saying you might need OTWF for the power attack option.

[Eldariel]

I don't know, a 1 in 4 chance of a burst is pretty good. Anyway, what would you suggest to boost damage then?

Standard elemental boosts still average more damage than Burst even with 15-20/x2: crits +1d6 + 1d10*.3 (30% crits) vs. +2d6; +2d6 wins easily. 2d6 averages 7, 1d6+1d10*.3 = 5.15. Even if you had x3 crit range, it'd be better to get two elemental boosts over Burst. You need 15-20/x4 or something like 8-20/x2 for Burst to be more efficient than two elementals.

Also, TWFers are absolutely wrecked by damage reduction so something like Metalline/Shadowstriking and Holy is very, very good. Prismatic Burst is a static cost to add so once you get to very high costs (+8-+9 range), it becomes more economic than standard upgrades and at that point it's fairly good. The non-DMG stuff is Magic Item Compendium, btw. Shadowstriking is Tome of Magic I recall.

[Pechvarry]

Just skimming my way through the door but... if Dervish = Tripper, you're definitely getting Elusive Target, right?

[theonesin]

I'm still a little confused on which weapons I should be using here, and whether to focus much on tripping (since I'd take an extra feat for Improved Trip). I've never seen this Oversized TWF stuff either.

But at any rate, is Scout 3/Swashbuckler 3 a good start to going into Dervish (at level 7 I guess)? The party definitely needs a Rogue-like character, but I'm not sure if Swashbuckler would be worth it over just a standard Fighter.

[amaranth69]

Rogue/Swash then grab daring outlaw feat to stack rogue and swash levels for SA. Also for a twf build, int bonus to damage is not halved. Then beat it into the barbarians head to let you get into flank with him and not to move. Also, see if your dm will let you take the shield of blades acf for swashbuckler in pbh 2.

[Eldariel]

I'm still a little confused on which weapons I should be using here, and whether to focus much on tripping (since I'd take an extra feat for Improved Trip). I've never seen this Oversized TWF stuff either.

Ok, look:
- Have stats to pick up TWF feats while putting your level-ups and highest stat to Strength? Yes: Be a Tripper. No: Don't be a Tripper.
- Have excess feats and overtly high To Hit? Yes: Take Oversized TWF and Power Attack. No: Don't take Oversized TWF.
- Need a Trapfinder? Yes: Go Scout 4/Ranger 2-entry with Swift Hunter. No: Go Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2-entry. Extra: If going Trapfinder, strongly suggest Human-race and Able Learner [Races of Destiny], or ask DM to allow Able Learner for a non-Human. Otherwise, it will be painful to keep Search & Disable Device maxed.

[Stallion]

Ok, look:
- Have stats to pick up TWF feats while putting your level-ups and highest stat to Strength? Yes: Be a Tripper. No: Don't be a Tripper.
- Have excess feats and overtly high To Hit? Yes: Take Oversized TWF and Power Attack. No: Don't take Oversized TWF.
- Need a Trapfinder? Yes: Go Scout 4/Ranger 2-entry with Swift Hunter. No: Go Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2-entry. Extra: If going Trapfinder, strongly suggest Human-race and Able Learner [Races of Destiny], or ask DM to allow Able Learner for a non-Human. Otherwise, it will be painful to keep Search & Disable Device maxed.

What he said.

[theonesin]

Well, my rolled stats are 20 20 17 16 15 13 (we rolled d20s for stats).

On another note, I was looking into playing a Whisper Gnome, so tripping would never be good for me due to being Small.

[brann miekka]

why not go straight rogue seven then take 5 levels in invisible blade to get the feint as a free action and max your ranks in bluff then take the tricks that allow you to bluff a group of enemies and the one that allows you to avoid AoO so once you get your dervish dance you can just move through your enemies, get your full sneak via mass feint and then avoid all the AoO from moving between your enemies, then maybe just pick up kukri prof or a level in fighter to get kukri prof and improved critical(kukri) and youll have the same crit range at only 2 points less and you will retain your extra 3d6 dagger sneak attack so all together thats, what, 7d6 extra sneak attack? plus perform is a class skill of rogues so you'll easily meet the prerequisite.

plus your small? even better if you go TWF the extra +1 to hit as a small creature will help soothe those penalties quite nicely. also, the invisible blade leaves leway room to choose other weapons to get ure sneak with, if you can coorce your DM to allow you to use a shortsword and retain your benefits pick up a blade of graceful strikes( arms and armaments) it allows you to use your dex modifier for dmg instead of strength, so u can be a race who gets added dex and still deal a decent amount of damage( Ex. if you were a halfling or such)

[Eldariel]

Well, my rolled stats are 20 20 17 16 15 13 (we rolled d20s for stats).

On another note, I was looking into playing a Whisper Gnome, so tripping would never be good for me due to being Small.

With those stats, I'd play a Human-or-Orc-or-Wood Elf Dervish Tripper if going Dervish at all. You have high enough Str and Dex that you can actually place a secondary stat (17) in Dex and still get it high enough for all the TWF-feats by the end of your career (or put 20s in Str and Dex and go with that; either works, really). Human seems really, really good with those stats tho; you don't really need a bonus in any stat but a bonus feat goes a long, long way towards making the feat sink that is Dervish doable.

Though Elf and Champion of Corellon Larethian for 2 levels would also shine since with those stats, getting any stat to damage is just huge. That'd leave you somewhat feat-starved though. Either way, I'd definitely take advantage of the option of going Strength-focus; that saves you two feats in Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, and gets you a very impressive damage output overall.

[Talya]

Start with a base of Grey Elf. The +2 dex and int are the exact flavor we're looking for here. Add in 2 levels of Swashbuckler, for taste. (And weapon finesse as a class ability and weapon focus: Longsword as your level 1 feat. While Longsword seems like the flavor will be out of place in this dish, it adds some nice flavor while baking.) Then take two levels of fighter right now, and sprinkle with combat expertise, dodge, and mobility. Take one more level of Swashbuckler for insightful strike.

Now open your jar of dervish and drop one level of dervish into the dish. Take two weapon fighting. Stir. Use Scimitars from now on.

Slowly mix in two more levels of fighter and add a pinch of rarely used Mounted Combat.

It's at this point where weapon focus: longsword shows its flavor. Carefully blacken two spears of Champion of Corellon Larethian for "Elegance." (Elegant strike, that is.) Dust it with Improved Two Weapon Fighting, before adding to the mix.

Place in the oven and bake for 9 levels of Dervish. Periodically open it up to add Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Scimitar, and Weapon Specialization: Scimitar.

This Dervish was my first attempt at optimizing a melee character. I thought it was cheesy at the time. It is still fairly solid, although with the books available today it could probably be done better.