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Moonlitdreams
2010-11-29, 01:59 AM
So, my players just discovered the spy among them and tried to kill him. Unfortunately for them, he got away because of their lack of realizing that yes, Dispel Magic does work on a low CL Dimensional Anchor. :smallamused:

So now the spy that has been with them for almost 10 levels, secretly observing their strengths, weaknesses, preferences, looks, personalities and behaviors is back reporting to his masters in the xenophobic human Empire that has a multitude of reasons for hating this non-human party. I have some ideas for how to make life difficult for them as a result of this (Death Squads, anyone?), but I am seeking other ideas, as I expect them to obliterate most any enemy that goes against them in direct combat.

The party is fairly optimized, is currently composed of a low ranking astral deva sorcerer/mindbender, succubus antipaladin, fang dragon warblade and gith monk (using savage species-esque progressions for the races), and they are currently trying to find and root out the demonic presence that they were tipped off about being in the empire.

What would you do if you were a secret society protecting the knowledge that a demonlord is controlling the king of the empire and a group of adventurers were suddenly super-suspicious of you? Thanks in advance for the ideas. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and party level is 14.

WinWin
2010-11-29, 02:09 AM
Assassinate them.

Extortion via threats to family or loved ones (followed by assassination).

Divide and Conquer...This can be done by hiring suggestable members of the group to undermine the efforts, or even just insinuating that there is another traitor in the group. Paranoia may tear the group apart. Makes them easier to assasinate.

Xanatos gambit. Basically, set up a scenario where regardless of the outcome, the bad guys win. A minor example would be setting the players against other enemies of the cult. If the players succeed, then it is a win for the bad guys. If they fail...it is a win for the bad guys. Given that this secret group is running an empire, they are likely to have more enemies than just the PC's. Some of these groups may be the good guys, other may be bad guys, like a rival demon or something.

just general ideas. hope this helps.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-29, 02:11 AM
At level 14 your talking about Demons who follow the Demon Lord and high level humans. I would suggest the following:

1. Tracking Squad: A group that includes an evil Ranger and an evil Rogue that doesn't actually engage the party. Instead they find and follow the party, calling in others to do the fighting. For instance entering a city ruled by the Empire the two of them inform the local guard that your party needs to be killed. They have their wizard cast dimensional anchor on one of your party members, set the hotel on fire and have the guard assault you. They themselves avoid getting involved and watch from down the street, following you if you get away. They then do the same thing again and again until you notice and kill engage them.

2. Assassination Squad: Made up of members equal to your party, they are humans with levels in Rogue/Scout and using damage dealing prestige classes like Assassin, Spellwarp Sniper, etc. They make an attempt at killing any members that get separated. Killing one of them causes them to attack your entire group the next time you rest.

3. Demons: Made up of groups ranging from large to small, they appear sporadically and attack in broad daylight, unlike the other groups. They frequently have a caster stand nearby and fireball you while the demons enter melee. This should be used more often and with bigger groups as the empire feels more and more threatened.

Moonlitdreams
2010-11-29, 02:27 AM
Interesting suggestions so far, I particularly like the ones about seperating them.

One rules-related question though: Would Dimensional Anchor work to keep a creature from going incorporeal? If not, Cleric/Master of Shrouds might just be perfect for part of the Assassination Squad. :smallcool:

JonRG
2010-11-29, 02:33 AM
Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane.

Dimensional Anchor would not suppress incorporeality.

Coidzor
2010-11-29, 03:18 AM
Make 'em public enemy number one. Have a general alert be raised on sight of them and have mooks flood in to distract them for masses upon masses of things that are weak but still threats to swarm them if they show themselves openly at all with progressively more powerful things arriving as they expend resources avoiding the weaker things' attempts to keep them in the area for the big guns to come and take them out.

Which is basically what the Realm does in Exalted when it spots Anathema.

Secret police that hang back and wait for them to spend some spells taking out a bunch of mooks and then more competent troops before attacking them once they've expended resources, or some items that can be used by certain mooks to spam dimensional anchor at them so they can't really use spells to retreat without taking additional actions to dispel and being around longer for more dimensional anchors to hit them and actually dangerous things to strike.

Also, mobs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179).

Tvtyrant
2010-11-29, 03:20 AM
Make 'em public enemy number one. Have a general alert be raised on sight of them and have mooks flood in to distract them for masses upon masses of things that are weak but still threats to swarm them if they show themselves openly at all with progressively more powerful things arriving as they expend resources avoiding the weaker things' attempts to keep them in the area for the big guns to come and take them out.

The problem with this is the party would just end up avoiding cities/go into hiding. You need to lure them into a public setting and attack them there so they can't get out :P

Actually it would be kind of cool to have to fight your way out of a city against mobs of commoners and low level guardsmen while avoiding assassins and demons.

Coidzor
2010-11-29, 03:25 AM
The problem with this is the party would just end up avoiding cities/go into hiding. You need to lure them into a public setting and attack them there so they can't get out :P

Actually it would be kind of cool to have to fight your way out of a city against mobs of commoners and low level guardsmen while avoiding assassins and demons.

If they're in hiding in the wilderness and avoiding cities, they're going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to investigating the activities of this shadowy cabal, are they not? So they've effectively tabled themselves as anything but a threat in the wilderness along with the largely irrelevant trash like ogres and goblin bandits.


What would you do if you were a secret society protecting the knowledge that a demonlord is controlling the king of the empire and a group of adventurers were suddenly super-suspicious of you? Thanks in advance for the ideas. :smallbiggrin:

Depends, what does the secret society actually do with this knowledge? Do they help it at all or do they just know? Because if them knowing is the only way to find out about it, then that suggests that they would have their rank and file basically go to ground, go quiet, and reduce themselves to sleeper cells in the face of a serious attempt to investigate them as a group by known enemies of the state. Y'know, be disappeared.

Actually, mindrape is incredibly useful to the organization for this sort of thing, locking away the knowledge to revive the order in a whole bunch of sleepers or simply downsizing the organization's at-risk personnel.

If they have to actually do things to help the demon lord... for whatever reason... Well, then they're going to quietly buff up security on the people who matter, and arrange for whatever means necessary to get others to take out the party, probably not limited to framing them for warcrimes on other factions to provide another source of distraction to the party's efforts to smoke 'em out.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-29, 03:34 AM
Hmmmm. Does anyone else know about the demon-lord? Because you could the empire portray the party as being a demon cult, so anything they say would sound crazy.

Moonlitdreams
2010-11-29, 03:46 AM
Hmmmm. Does anyone else know about the demon-lord? Because you could the empire portray the party as being a demon cult, so anything they say would sound crazy.

Besides (some) gods, other demon lords and the secret society, no. Technically the party doesn't know about the demon lord either, they just know there is some sort of demonic presence in the Empire. At this time they think that it is an aberrant cult and not actually related to the king at all.


Also, Coidzor, the society helps keep the secret of the king and the demon lord. They have various reasons for doing this, but to simplify it: temptation for power + mindrape on those less susceptible to the former.

And all of this making them a public enemy would work, except for the fact that at their level they can/will be using polymorph or other shapechanging spells fairly easily. And the Empire knows this, because of the spy that got away. While some officials and guards have access to ways to see through those spells, not everyone does, thus that makes the general public... less than useful.

Coidzor
2010-11-29, 05:09 AM
So, what, they're minions basically tasked with preventing any spellcasters from divinationing on the king and promised wealth and power for doing so? :smallconfused:

I'm not really seeing why the demon lord needs them to keep his secret.

Moonlitdreams
2010-11-29, 05:17 AM
Because it started with just a few cultists of this demon lord, and nothing ever remains completely secret? Also, to give the PCs a bit of a chance.

Acanous
2010-11-29, 06:14 AM
There's a succubus in the party. Have them set it up like there's a Devil of some kind TRYING to get a foothold in the empire. Inform clerics of whatever goodly powers in the empire to be on the watch, give them descriptions and what to expect.
Increase guard presence. Make sure they're always working in pairs.
Report unusual activity. Hire a ranger and an assassin to track them, waiting for a good moment to strike. Prefferably with the ranger 700 feet away and the assassin hitting whomever is the primary spellcaster.

With the clerics being more suspicious about say, large unusual purchases of healing potions, or high-level magic services and guards watching the comings and goings around the city, they'll be easier to track for the ranger and assassin.

Further, the rumor that there's a hellish threat will have a lot of the magically inclined preparing anti-outsider spells and items.
Yes I know a succubus is a demon, not a devil, but there's a good reason for this-
the other party member is a lawful outsider, and it'd be harder to smear campaign that :p
So with people preparing say, +1 lawful bane evil bane weapons, you get both party members a little :3

above all, make sure the people know the king is going to whatever measures are neccesary to ensure their safety. Don't put up a curfew or have people dissappear, make it look safe and orderly. Have the PCs be the ones that disrupt the order.

Moonlitdreams
2010-11-29, 04:46 PM
About the above suggestion, how much should this increase in guard presence be obvious to the players?

Tvtyrant
2010-11-29, 07:27 PM
About the above suggestion, how much should this increase in guard presence be obvious to the players?

Depends on how you want the combat to roll out, and if your characters are looking for increased guard presence. For instance, having a guy at a bar/merchant booth tell another guy that there are a lot of guards for a saturday would be acceptable if you want them to know; or having them just see crazy amounts of guards everywhere works too.

Psyx
2010-11-30, 06:22 AM
What would you do if you were a secret society protecting the knowledge that a demonlord is controlling the king of the empire and a group of adventurers were suddenly super-suspicious of you? Thanks in advance for the ideas. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and party level is 14.



Scry and die!


If the party are pretty optimised and use similar tactics themselves, it's perfectly fair. If the party are more story-based and 'reasonable' in their gaming, then be a little kinder.

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 06:26 AM
Arrange huge teleport death squad, or some anti-magic trap with some nasty poison or some such. Really, you have an empireful of resources in your hands. Propaganda. Assassins. Spellcasters. Infinite money to hire anybody ever. Deals with Dragons. Summons. Scrolls of high level spells. Go nuts.

Killer Angel
2010-11-30, 06:37 AM
What would you do if you were a secret society protecting the knowledge that a demonlord is controlling the king of the empire and a group of adventurers were suddenly super-suspicious of you? Thanks in advance for the ideas. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and party level is 14.

The group stands no chance.
A secret agency, with lots of info on them, their equipment, tactics, etc., and the resources of an empire, wants 'em dead? they're dead.

Of course, it's not fun, so... give'em a good chance. Prepare a optimized deadly squad, with scry 'n die, teleport and hit as hard as you can. The secret society wants them dead 100% guarantee.
The trick is: they send a death squad with a CR +3 then level 14, but meanwhile the group has gained one level (maybe just a couple of days before).

thubby
2010-11-30, 06:39 AM
Dimensional Anchor would not suppress incorporeality.

iirc, it can stop a ghost from materializing, though, by anchoring it to the ethereal plane that it manifests from.

on the subject of scry and die.
you could have the first squad's teleport be slightly off target in a way that is obvious to the party. it would give them the chance to work around the strategy while still demanding resources (anti-teleport or anti-scry magic is not cheap)

Radar
2010-11-30, 07:26 AM
If they are still eating food and drinking in taverns and such, poison them or try to give them some nasty disease (preferably with a long incubation period, so they can infect each other before the first symptomes go off). Something that deals Wisdom damage might be a good idea, since it will most likely prevent the paladin from casting Cure Disease and force them to take help from an NPC cleric. This is where the assasination plan comes to the finest point. :smallamused:
MUAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
*khem* *khem*
Now, even if it won't kill the party, it will make them highly paranoid about everything and everyone, which is a good thing, right?

On the anti-scrying: there was a flavorful spelltouched (i think) feat. It allows you to send a Phantasmal Killer back at anyone scrying you (unexpected bonus is, you are aware of every scry attempt, sice you have to make the decision about sending the nasty surprise back) Anyone, who survived Phantasmal Killer spell, could take it. Now I can see the BBEG expose his minions to the Phantasmal Killer spell only to make them take the feat and act as his personal anti-scry equipment.

umbrapolaris
2010-11-30, 08:20 AM
1- find a way to secretly kidnap one of the character during their resting time or by separating one of them in a dungeon. the player will be not aware of that (unless he agree to roleplay it honestly)

2- replace him by a well prepared and higher level copy to assume the kidnapped one. (a doppelganger or any shapechanger/mimicker race)

3- the copy will use the pretext of the spy report to progressively ruin the party. (psychological warfare, create suspicion between each player of the party, sabotage, etc..)

4- send assassins, they will act as decoy for the copy to act. they will always find the party where they are.

5- where they are suspicious enough of each other, start to isolate one of them from the party by make him the black sheep. place some evidence accusing him to be another spy.

6- if they don't start to kill each other, let the copy do it.

it is a bit perverse and may ruin the relationship between players, but it sounds so funny ^^

TheCIASentMe
2010-11-30, 10:49 AM
Whatever you choose to do... Don't let the party sleep or make them fight for it. Even if it's something as stupid as a small group of level 1 summons attacking the party in the middle of the night.

Fatigue and exhaustion can be deadly.

Moonlitdreams
2010-11-30, 07:24 PM
While the party is rather optimized, they have been nice about avoiding things like scry and die, NI loops and persistent spell. I would rather not punish them for this by throwing those sorts of things at them.

However, I am not averse to the idea of a death squad teleporting somewhere else in the city, gathering some information on what they have done in the past day or two, and then attacking.

For the optimized squad, how does this look?

Wizard with a few bound critters: I'm thinking a Glabrezu and a Jarilith or two.
Hidden Rogue. Greater Invisibility + Darkstalker + high level scrolls.
Buffer Bard.
Crusader?
Anything else noteworthy to add?

Anxe
2010-11-30, 07:57 PM
I would Summon the Demon Lord and begin the apocalypse. How would I do this you ask? I would attack the PCs with minions based around hitting their weaknesses. Capture one of the PCs and use that PC as the final blood sacrifice that will free the Demon Lord to walk this Earth in flesh!

Or you could have the Demon Lord possess his spy/lieutenant and have him be super-powerful and try to accomplish the same goal as stated above.

Coidzor
2010-11-30, 08:17 PM
However, I am not averse to the idea of a death squad teleporting somewhere else in the city, gathering some information on what they have done in the past day or two, and then attacking.

For the optimized squad, how does this look?

Wizard with a few bound critters: I'm thinking a Glabrezu and a Jarilith or two.
Hidden Rogue. Greater Invisibility + Darkstalker + high level scrolls.
Buffer Bard.
Crusader?
Anything else noteworthy to add?

Hmm, all I can think of offhand would be to give them some form of tactical advantage maybe in the form of the area being cordoned off, or mobs of mooks being arranged on the peripheries and tightening a drag-net. It'd be something that at first would limit their mobility and then become an active combatant if they take too long in eliminating/escaping from their primary assailants. Since the hit squad is choosing when to strike and has the support of the governing body, it stands to reason they could get some tactical support in such a way.

And with a generous amount of time with which to either take out or flee from the combat, the mooks would be less of a wall of "you die," and more of a tactical thing to avoid, though this might require too much work to be worthwhile. It depends upon your willingness to map out an area for the dragnet and its progression over the course of several rounds or to just wing it and deal with it as it comes up if any PCs attempt to sneak out with the fleeing crowds or evade the drag net.

Them attempting to just barrel through or smash it, probably would be easy to adjudicate at least, though their least sound tactical option, considering they have a legitimate threat from the death squad already and then they're getting embroiled in the mooks who are there to keep them there/slow them down. Maybe have a sense motive check on the part of the party that's running errands or active to notice that people are getting off of the streets to give 'em forewarning that something's about to go down, depending upon where the encounter is placed.

Best case scenario from a dramatic standpoint might actually be them deciding to escape, getting out of there by the skin of their teeth while avoiding some volleys of arrows from roof/wall archers (depending upon how organized you want the response to be) and having their hunters stalk them for a few more encounters before things come to a head, maybe by them luring the hunters into a trap of their own.

Trying to think of other tactical advantages that the squad could have, since they're basically choosing the time of the initial engagement and possibly even the location, depending upon what the party is up to at the time.

Of course, the guard doesn't have to get involved, a couple of quietly placed walls set up out of immediate sight of the party that'll last long enough for the combat would also probably be appropriate... Maybe cut off the ability to get above the roof tops for a fair way around the building they were in before the death squad attacked...

I believe Zhentarim Skymage (Lords of Darkness) for the wizard might be interesting, basically binds a powerful critter as its mount, including dragons and outsiders depending upon level and charisma modifier.


If they are still eating food and drinking in taverns and such, poison them or try to give them some nasty disease (preferably with a long incubation period, so they can infect each other before the first symptomes go off). Something that deals Wisdom damage might be a good idea, since it will most likely prevent the paladin from casting Cure Disease and force them to take help from an NPC cleric. This is where the assasination plan comes to the finest point. :smallamused:.

Ahh, Nicolo Egidi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888537&postcount=155) This might be of interest, as would the poison handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), for some sample poison-using builds, including one that basically harasses his targets from afar and through intermediaries.