Idea for mage nerf - opinions

[Zen Master]

I just got an idea. So, without much thought and entirely unedited, I present you with:

THE INCREDIBLE MAGE NERF:

Ok, for starters, you take all spells that go 'bang' in one way of another, and remove them from their respective schools. You lump them into some new group that we can call 'Bang!' for ease of reference.

Now, all mages get access to the 'Bang!' school, plus one other school - and another school each 5 levels. So basically, at level 20 you will have access to 7 school including 'Bang!' But that's ok, because no one ever plays high level anyways.

On the other hand, you do away entirely with vancian spellcasting. You can simply cast any spell you know to your hearts content.

So - big nerf to utility, coupled with a free casting.

The point being of course to poke holes in the defences of mages, making them more on par with other classes.

Now, this is the result of all of five minutes of thinking, so I don't expect this to be die endlösung to class balance.

But ... what do you think? Could something along those lines work?

[TheMeMan]

I just got an idea. So, without much thought and entirely unedited, I present you with:

THE INCREDIBLE MAGE NERF:

Ok, for starters, you take all spells that go 'bang' in one way of another, and remove them from their respective schools. You lump them into some new group that we can call 'Bang!' for ease of reference.

Now, all mages get access to the 'Bang!' school, plus one other school - and another school each 5 levels. So basically, at level 20 you will have access to 7 school including 'Bang!' But that's ok, because no one ever plays high level anyways.


Okay... playing cup and ball with spells will limit their ability for all of five seconds. A minor nerf, if at all.



On the other hand, you do away entirely with vancian spellcasting. You can simply cast any spell you know to your hearts content.

So - big nerf to utility, coupled with a free casting.

The point being of course to poke holes in the defences of mages, making them more on par with other classes.

Now, this is the result of all of five minutes of thinking, so I don't expect this to be die endlösung to class balance.

But ... what do you think? Could something along those lines work?

AND the nerf has been completely and totally destroyed with absolutely free, usable whenever you want, as many times as you want, without concern for resources bonus.

Yep. You have done a fine job at actually strengthening a good lot Caster builds, whilst only minorly inconveniencing them.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, if that's a nerf, I hate to see your idea of a buff.

[TheMeMan]

Yeah, if that's a nerf, I hate to see your idea of a buff.

And in reality, putting all of the overpowered spells into a single school only helps the casters out! No need to worry about restricted schools or what have you, because all of your best spells are in one place!

[AstralFire]

Spells like Prismatic Wall and Shadow Conjuration don't even fit well with this scheme.

[Yuki Akuma]

Basing a 'nerf' on the concept that "nobody plays high levels anyway"?

What.

And "cast any spell you know"? How is that a nerf?

Do you even know what the word means?

[AstralFire]

Hey. You know.

Acromos' avatar has a beard.

Perhaps this is the elusive 'scruffy nerf herder?' :smallbiggrin:

[JaronK]

Dibs on playing a Shadowcraft Mage. Wheee!

Seriously, this is silly.

JaronK

[GoatBoy]

The division of spells into schools is somewhat mechanics-based, but in my opinion, it's more of a thematic difference. Evocation is supposed to be the "damage" school, but there are conjuration spells which do the same thing. Conjuration, in fact, contains just about every spell effect somewhere. And while illusion functions well for the most part, the whole school is rendered moot via the inclusion of the Shadow spells.

In my opinion, any fix to the caster imbalance needs to focus on arranging spells in a new way, making sure that no caster has complete access to anything without restricting something else. The current "spell schools" are ineffective because it's so easy to "give up" schools like evocation and necromancy without actually giving up anything that can't be reproduced by another spell.

The beguiler and dread necromancer serve as good examples because they can do a fair amount while having concrete limitations, while the warmage who has the same "limits" is actually far less effective.

tl;dr - Spell schools do not work as limiting factors in their current state.

[JaronK]

Here's a more sensible nerf: At level 1, Wizards pick one school. That and universal are all they get. At level 5, they get a second school, but they are treated as being four levels lower in that school for purposes of what spells they can pick (2 spell levels lower than their main school) and for caster level. At level 9, they get another school at 8 levels lower. At 13, a school at 12 levels lower. At 17, a school at 16 levels lower.

You'd still have to even out the spell schools a bit more (chuck all direct damage stuff, including Maw of Chaos and the Orb spells, into Evocation, for example). Spells that duplicate other schools (Shadow Conjuration, for example) should be nerfed or restricted in some way (perhaps they only work for schools you know at least some spells in?). And some of the real game breaker spells still need removal or nerfing (Planar Binding, Polymorph, Genesis, Summon Mirror Mephit, Alter Self). Other nerfs are worth considering too.

But it would be useful at least. And it wouldn't end up making Wizards stronger, like the OP idea.

JaronK

[Sinfonian]

At-will casting aside, this is otherwise a less-nerfed version of the suggestion that all wizards should be reduced to specialty list casters (i.e. warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer). One (of many) thing that it fails to deal with is that anyone who really cares about flexibility or power will simply choose Conjuration as their school.

I firmly believe that any concerted attempts to deal with the power of wizards needs to deal with the fact that the school includes the best of the things that makes wizards so powerful:
-battlefield control (glitterdust, black tentacles, web, solid fog, and more)
-summoning (planar binding, summon monster, gate)
-mobility (teleport, dimension door, phantom steed)
-making WBL cry (creation spells)

In a serious attempt to balance wizards downward, this is something that cannot remain.

Edit: Swordsaged hard while typing.

[JaronK]

One thought: spells shouldn't create permanent effects without permanent costs. Otherwise, you get WBL breakers and such. Consider having all spells that make something permanently of any value (such as Animate Dead, Fabricate, Wall of Stone) last as long as you want, but the spell slot is lost as long as it stays up, and the created thing still has a detectable magical aura. As such, shopkeepers won't take it (generally) and you can't do this stuff forever. But you can still make a necromancer army if you see fit... for a time.

JaronK

[Yora]

I might be not quite getting it, but to me it sounds as if this makes them even much more powerful.

[FelixG]

You should take a whack at nerfing fighters, they need a boost :smallbiggrin:

[Zen Master]

I might be not quite getting it, but to me it sounds as if this makes them even much more powerful.

How so? Yes, you can cast blasty spells all day, but that truly doesn't concern me much - after all, I like wizards to be blasters.

As for utility magic - you get access to only one school from level 1. Another from level 5, and so on. Eventually, you regain most of the power lost - but as I said, no one ever plays high level anyways, so that's fine.

Or - perhaps more truthfully - the people that play high level aren't the most likely candidates out there looking for mage nerfs.

Shadow conjuration, clearly, has to go. Entirely. Otherwise the whole exercise is moot.

Same for any other types of 'swap this for that'. You get only the spells in the schools you have access to.

[Kurald Galain]

Big nerf to utility, what?

Almost all of the utility spells you'll ever need are either Transmutation or Conjuration, and you can get both of those by level five. Heck, you can make a completely viable high-uber-powered wizard by just restricting yourself entirely to one of those two schools.

Versatility is never in "how many schools you can cast".

[Cuaqchi]

Limiting versatility doesn't nerf the wizard if single spells can solve his problems. Polymorph, Conjuration, and Divination are the only requirements to be made of win, and if you give less then that why bother playing?

The easiest 'nerf' is a rule that was dropped between AD&D and 3.X. It takes a fixed time per spell level to memorize spells, negating 15 minute adventuring days and forcing the wizard to either nerf himself making a near infinate number of scrolls or by filling up on a list of spells that are more generally useful so that he can contribute.

At higher levels, a (standard) party should be able to churn through up to almost a dozen encounters between rests and the BBEG can find out they are coming. If they stop to replenish spells a change in memorization times can be the differance between the BBEG getting what he needs to make a last stand, or running away to bother the heroes once more.

[Eldan]

The problem is this: there are spells, single spells, not schools or combos, that break the game on their own.

Honestly: if you say to an optimizer "choose one spell, you get that one at will", he'll salivate, then break your game harder than it has ever been broken.

Polymorph at will? I laugh at fighters now. At higher levels, shapechange: I get to do everything I want, forever.

Shadow Conjuration? There's a reason one of the strongest mage concepts is built entirely on this.

Choose Major Creation, and just buy 50 wands of every spell ever created. Problem solved.

And so on.

Getting the entire Conjuration or Transmutation school at will just gets silly.

[Gnaritas]

You should play a Warlock, i think you would fancy him.

[Vladislav]

Being able to Color Spray at will on level 1 (plus getting a few other spells, also at will) doesn't strike me as much of a nerf.

[Zen Master]

Big nerf to utility, what?

Almost all of the utility spells you'll ever need are either Transmutation or Conjuration, and you can get both of those by level five. Heck, you can make a completely viable high-uber-powered wizard by just restricting yourself entirely to one of those two schools.

Versatility is never in "how many schools you can cast".

Um ... yea, it is. No, not only - but still. If the tool you need in a specific situation is in a school you cannot cast, you are then less versatile than you would have otherwise been.

Also, I'm trying for a fix that will work in actual play. So it's irrelevant if a mage with access to transmutation can wreck WBL, or if a summoner can summon efreets for an endless supply of free wishes - because that's not going to happen in actual play.

I'm not trying to make optimization impossible. I'm not trying to cripple mages. What I'm trying to do is put a few chinks in their armor.

Now, I'm really not very interested in how you all can flex your inner munchkins to circumvent the nerf. Not because that isn't interesting - but it's not what I'm looking for.

What I'm looking for is ways to make the intended change work. If that is at all possible, I dunno.

EDIT:


Being able to Color Spray at will on level 1 (plus getting a few other spells, also at will) doesn't strike me as much of a nerf.

There is no problem in that, as far as I can see. Color spray lets you two-shot enemies - power attack lets you one-shot them. Both at low levels. Perfectly fine by me.

[Killer Angel]

So - big nerf to utility, coupled with a free casting.




Now, I'm really not very interested in how you all can flex your inner munchkins to circumvent the nerf.

It's not a matter of optimization (munchkin is another thing).
Free casting is not a nerf.

[AstralFire]

I think a large number of people 'flexing their inner munchkin' as you call it is usually a bad sign for a fix.

I think JaronK already gave you the more workable version of your idea though:


Here's a more sensible nerf: At level 1, Wizards pick one school. That and universal are all they get. At level 5, they get a second school, but they are treated as being four levels lower in that school for purposes of what spells they can pick (2 spell levels lower than their main school) and for caster level. At level 9, they get another school at 8 levels lower. At 13, a school at 12 levels lower. At 17, a school at 16 levels lower.

You'd still have to even out the spell schools a bit more (chuck all direct damage stuff, including Maw of Chaos and the Orb spells, into Evocation, for example). Spells that duplicate other schools (Shadow Conjuration, for example) should be nerfed or restricted in some way (perhaps they only work for schools you know at least some spells in?). And some of the real game breaker spells still need removal or nerfing (Planar Binding, Polymorph, Genesis, Summon Mirror Mephit, Alter Self). Other nerfs are worth considering too.

But it would be useful at least. And it wouldn't end up making Wizards stronger, like the OP idea.

JaronK

It has the benefit of making the Wizard's choices at first level end up mattering, too.

[Eldan]

You don't even need to go totally overpowered. Look at the first two levels of Conjuration:

Grease: battlefield control. Awesome.
Mage Armour: defense. Useful.
Obscuring Mist: more battlefield control, or sneakery.
Summon Monster: useful in combat, at least on the hgiher levels, when it actually lasts.
Acid Arrow: blasting. You are moving that to a new school.
Fog Cloud: control.
Glitterdust: more control
Summon Swarm: control and combat
Web: more control.

So even in core only, the mage has decent defences, some blasting and superb battlefield control. Any two of those battlefield control spell will wreck any encounter.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think you quite understand what the problem with Wizards is.

People who don't know the problems should try to fix them. (See: Paizo.)

[Vladislav]

So even in core only, the mage has decent defences, some blasting and superb battlefield control. Any two of those battlefield control spell will wreck any encounter.Also, between Grease, Glitterdust and Summon Swarm, he has spells that attack every type of save. (a lot of monsters have huge differences between their best and worst save)

[Gnaritas]

I think JaronK already gave you the more workable version of your idea though:

It has the benefit of making the Wizard's choices at first level end up mattering, too.

I actually kind of like JaronK's idea and agree that is pretty workable.

[Kalim]

You could probably just bar your Wizards from using Transmutation or Conjuration spells entirely, and it'd probably nerf them in a way that actually nerfs them.

[Zen Master]

I think a large number of people 'flexing their inner munchkin' as you call it is usually a bad sign for a fix.

I think JaronK already gave you the more workable version of your idea though:

It has the benefit of making the Wizard's choices at first level end up mattering, too.

Jaron K does the very same thing - just with more of a nerf. Which I consider unnecessary. Primarily because I don't perceive the same problems you do. No one is ever going to wreak WBL, no one is going to chain summon efreets, no one uses polymorph in a way that is game breaking.

Maybe I just don't get it. Do the rest of you really, truly, have problems with these spells in your real-life gaming sessions?


You don't even need to go totally overpowered. Look at the first two levels of Conjuration:

Grease: battlefield control. Awesome.
Mage Armour: defense. Useful.
Obscuring Mist: more battlefield control, or sneakery.
Summon Monster: useful in combat, at least on the hgiher levels, when it actually lasts.
Acid Arrow: blasting. You are moving that to a new school.
Fog Cloud: control.
Glitterdust: more control
Summon Swarm: control and combat
Web: more control.

So even in core only, the mage has decent defences, some blasting and superb battlefield control. Any two of those battlefield control spell will wreck any encounter.

Not a single one of those spells is a problem. They are good spells. Shouldn't a wizard have good spells?

Chain casting grease - just as an example - would be annoying. But it works both ways, enemy casters could do the same. Also, it would be boring - which I believe would pretty much be motivation enough to not do so.

[AstralFire]

Jaron K does the very same thing - just with more of a nerf. Which I consider unnecessary. Primarily because I don't perceive the same problems you do. No one is ever going to wreak WBL, no one is going to chain summon efreets, no one uses polymorph in a way that is game breaking.


Chain casting grease - just as an example - would be annoying. But it works both ways, enemy casters could do the same. Also, it would be boring - which I believe would pretty much be motivation enough to not do so.

You don't have to go to polymorph, et al, which I agree are rarely broken to the extreme we see online.

I really suggest you reread these two quotes of yours in quick succession. Having to fight casters with casters, and "I won't use that tactic only because it's marginally boring," aren't really indicative of something that doesn't need to be nerfed.

[Kurald Galain]

Maybe I just don't get it. Do the rest of you really, truly, have problems with these spells in your real-life gaming sessions?

The people that don't have those problems will not need your fix, though.

[Gnaritas]

We don't have much trouble.
Most of our casters did not optimize much, i was the only one that did, but i took great care in making sure that noone really noticed i had an answer for almost all problems. I spent most of the time just buffing others and keeping the nastier spells for when things go bad, which wasn't that often.

Now that i am DM however i did "nerf" casters in a way that every full caster had Bard spell progression and got different abilities in return.

[Zeofar]

Also, I'm trying for a fix that will work in actual play. So it's irrelevant if a mage with access to transmutation can wreck WBL, or if a summoner can summon efreets for an endless supply of free wishes - because that's not going to happen in actual play.


But a summoner can still cast his highest level summoning spell or blasting spell every single round. If your idea of actual play is "fight monsters" then this still breaks the currently established balance and expectations for an encounter.



I'm not trying to make optimization impossible. I'm not trying to cripple mages. What I'm trying to do is put a few chinks in their armor.


You put a few chinks in their old armor and gave them the best, shiniest new armor that one could find.



Now, I'm really not very interested in how you all can flex your inner munchkins to circumvent the nerf. Not because that isn't interesting - but it's not what I'm looking for.


As everyone has been telling you, your nerf doesn't work. Nobody is flexing anything, except, maybe, their mind as they ponder why you think this is a balanced fix.



What I'm looking for is ways to make the intended change work. If that is at all possible, I dunno.


Again, what people have been telling you is this: the change doesn't work. Giving free spellcasting while slightly reducing spell access does not work to decrease power on a fundamental level and doesn't address the actual issues with spellcasting in the least. Less versatility doesn't outweigh infinite magic.

Your first step, reducing access to schools, was a good one. Your second step, giving it back for free, was a bad one. Your last step, giving free spellcasting, broke the lid off of the entire system and ruined it. Even stopping at the second step has already ruined the nerf because spellcasters don't have to do anything except take more spellcasting levels to get back to their old level of power +infinity.



Not a single one of those spells is a problem. They are good spells. Shouldn't a wizard have good spells?


If you don't understand the issue with these spells then I don't think you really 'get' what is held to be wrong with spellcasters. These spells end encounters. Giving spellcasters the ability to cast these spells endlessly pretty much ruins all encounters. The argument that the enemy can do the same makes the end result of this system identical to the current one: Wizards vs. Wizards, everyone else is irrelevant. If you don't have an issue with these kinds spells or infinite wishes/actions/damage, you don't have a real issue with spellcasters and this nerf is pointless.

[Zen Master]

You don't have to go to polymorph, et al, which I agree are rarely broken to the extreme we see online.

I really suggest you reread these two quotes of yours in quick succession. Having to fight casters with casters, and "I won't use that tactic only because it's marginally boring," aren't really indicative of something that doesn't need to be nerfed.

Hmmm ..... chain casting only spells from the School of Bang would be fine. But yes, you're right, of course.

EDIT:


The people that don't have those problems will not need your fix, though.

That, naturally, is a fair argument. I think there is room for it to fall somewhere in the middle ground - where mages might need a bit of a nerf, but not quite as bad a nerf as Jaron K suggested. But then we're playing around with undefined variables, which tends to be tricky.

I grant you point tho.

[DeckOneBell]

JaronK's nerf isn't as drastic as you think it is. Also, your "nerf" is kinda tilted towards levels 1-10, maybe (probably less than that). After that, wizards are actually more powerful than they used to be, which is just plain silly.

Imagine a core-only, evocation-only wizard, possibly as unoptimized as possible with the roughest possible nerf of only one spell school.

Just the pure blasting might be able to keep up with the damage output of a core barbarian, not to mention also being area of effect. I would suspect such a wizard is still very playable, which is what the warmage essentially is, with some trivial HP and AC boosts.

If your players play relatively unoptimized wizards that don't steal the show, no need for a fix, you're in the clear. But if your player loves reading the dnd 3.5 splatbooks and spends some time thinking of how to maximize his impact, then the more extreme fixes are whipped out, like bard spell progression.

[Eldan]

There's actually more to it, thinking about it now.

Imagine a cleric chain-casting divine might/power. Or a wizard chain casting trapfinding, knock or invisibility.

That's right: you don't need rogues or fighters anymore.

[JaronK]

Jaron K does the very same thing - just with more of a nerf.

No, because I didn't power Wizards up.


Which I consider unnecessary. Primarily because I don't perceive the same problems you do.

If you don't understand the problem, don't try to fix it. This is the issue right here.


Maybe I just don't get it. Do the rest of you really, truly, have problems with these spells in your real-life gaming sessions?

YES. Seriously, yes. It really does happen. Heck, one player in our games just spamming Glitterdust was a problem. He was bored. We were bored. Every encounter was just blind instantly. And the thing is, he was a Beguiler, and wasn't sure how to use anything else, so he just didn't. Eventually his solution was to kill himself and make a new character, one without Glitterdust, so that he wouldn't have a constant "I win" button.

But seriously, your solution fails utterly. You can get almost all the utility you want from Conjuration alone (Glitterdust Spam by level 3, when everyone's blind start summoning monsters). By level 5 you throw in Transmutation and now the Wizard is permanently Alter Self'd into whatever the most useful thing in existence is. It's just silly. You no longer have to think at all, just pick 8 solid spells and spam them constantly. You've nerfed them in a tiny useless way and then buffed them to extremes.

JaronK