d20 Modern Urban Arcana

[fireinakasha]

So I just read through this for the first time.

My question is: why would anyone ever bother with Shadowrun?

[raitalin]

All sorts of reasons, namely:

1. Shadowrun is built for the setting. It was built from the ground up to allow for things like cybernetics and hacking, while these rules are just sorta grafted onto d20.

2. Vastly different character creation. While d20m might be the most flexible WotC d20 CC system, Shadowrun is entirely point-based and freeform. (Well, 4e is as default the older systems used a priority system with point buy as an option)

3. Extremely different resolution system. SR is dicepool vs. # of successes, while D&D is d20 vs. target number. Shadowrun also has grade of success ingrained in the system and allows manipulation of a player's dice pool on the fly via Edge.

4 Health, damage and armor are handled with more detail in Shadowrun. There is a layer of resolution for hitting, penetrating armor and damage, while in d20 there's just hitting and damage. Taking damage in SR also carries a wound penalty, which avoids the whole "I'm just as good at 1 hit point as I was at 100" thing.

5. Resources. Shadowrun has a ton of published material, even more so if you use the 1st-3rd edition setting. d20M material is pretty much limited to the 6 or so books that WotC published and a handful of 3rd party stuff.

I like d20m, but by the very nature of being universal (and not being originally conceived as a universal system) it is rarely the best system for any given setting. What it is is a fairly intuitive system that many are familiar with, so it's generally easier to find players for it. d20m is the system you play when your group doesn't know anything else and doesn't want to learn.

Also, SAGA and Mutants and Masterminds are both d20 and can cover more settings more effectively than d20m.

*Sigh* It's depressing to realize that what was once my favorite system is basically obsolete.

[Yuki Akuma]

Because some people like different game systems?

Shocking, I know.

[fireinakasha]

All sorts of reasons, namely:

*a bunch of good reasons*

Aha! I knew there was going to be at least one good reason. Thank you, sir, for illuminating me :smallsmile:

[Maho-Tsukai]

That and shadowrun is far more "realistic" and "gritty." I know from experience. While I have not played newer Shadowrun editions I have played older ones and my playgroup just loves shadowrun, at times more so then D&D. As stated above it's a different experience from D20 modern and a far more realistic one, at that. D20 modern is, more or less, re-skined D&D in a sense. It still follows the same patterns. In D&D you go through the labyrinthine dungeon, kill bloodthirsty monsters, steal their gold and then fighting the boss monster at the end. In D20 modern you go through the labyrinthine skyscraper, kill bloodthirsty office temps, steal their credit cards and fight the CEO on the top floor. While that may be a generalization D20m generally dose play out a lot like D&D, and the fact that melee is STILL better then guns only reinforces that fact.

Shadowrun, on the other hand, is far better at modeling realistic modern/future characters and due to the rules mentioned above(wounding ect..) generally feels more realistic then D20 modern ever will. Don't get me wrong, I do like D20 modern, but I personally feel that overall there are better systems that can model the same thing.(Shadowrun and Mutants and Masterminds, both of which where mentioned, are good ones. Shadowrun if you want gritty realism and M&M if you want more superhuman characters....or anime...I find that M&M is a great system for anime style games.)

[fireinakasha]

Then my second question is: how complicated are all of these extra layers of resolution for things like wounding and armor bypassing?

While I fully believe that they contribute a lot to the enjoyment of the game via realism and tactical complexity, I also have the experience that additional layers of mechanical resolution can significantly slow down the game, and reduce the enjoyment of the process. So; does Shadowrun's added complexity slow down the game in comparison to d20M, or is it well-designed and dynamic?

Also, how does the magic system of both compare? I've only ever skimmed the Shadowrun manual, so I don't know if there are spells or not (I don't recall seeing a spell section, at least not as large as D&D's). But then, having played Mage: The Ascension, I know full well that sometimes not having fixed static spells can be wonderful...

[Callos_DeTerran]

That and shadowrun is far more "realistic" and "gritty." I know from experience. While I have not played newer Shadowrun editions I have played older ones and my playgroup just loves shadowrun, at times more so then D&D. As stated above it's a different experience from D20 modern and a far more realistic one, at that. D20 modern is, more or less, re-skined D&D in a sense. It still follows the same patterns. In D&D you go through the labyrinthine dungeon, kill bloodthirsty monsters, steal their gold and then fighting the boss monster at the end. In D20 modern you go through the labyrinthine skyscraper, kill bloodthirsty office temps, steal their credit cards and fight the CEO on the top floor. While that may be a generalization D20m generally dose play out a lot like D&D, and the fact that melee is STILL better then guns only reinforces that fact.

...I honestly wonder what d20 modern your playing if it's THAT similar to D&D. :smallwink:

Also, melee is inferior to firearms in d20 modern with the right attention to detail.


1. Shadowrun is built for the setting. It was built from the ground up to allow for things like cybernetics and hacking, while these rules are just sorta grafted onto d20.

To my knowledge (Urban Arcana is one of TWO books I don't have for d20 Modern published by WotC), UA doesn't allow for cybernetics or extensive hacking in it's natural state. It'd require an infusion of d20 Future/Cyberscape...Actually, from what I know of Shadowrun and UA (not much for either, mind you) I don't really think they are comparable settings.

[Bayar]

To my knowledge (Urban Arcana is one of TWO books I don't have for d20 Modern published by WotC), UA doesn't allow for cybernetics or extensive hacking in it's natural state. It'd require an infusion of d20 Future/Cyberscape...Actually, from what I know of Shadowrun and UA (not much for either, mind you) I don't really think they are comparable settings.

He was reffering to the fact that Shadowrun was specifically created to be a game with all the mechanics and stuff specifically for it's setting, while D20 Modern is just another reskin of the d20 system with not alot of thought into the proper implementation of cybernetics and hacking.

[Yuki Akuma]

He was reffering to the fact that Shadowrun was specifically created to be a game with all the mechanics and stuff specifically for it's setting, while D20 Modern is just another reskin of the d20 system with not alot of thought into the proper implementation of cybernetics and hacking.

...Urban Arcana isn't cyberpunk. Why does it need cybernetics rules?

If you want those, buy d20 Future.

[Bayar]

...Urban Arcana isn't cyberpunk. Why does it need cybernetics rules?

If you want those, buy d20 Future.

Well, because the OP asked why should we bother with Shadowrun when we have D20M and Urban Arcana.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah. However, UA, with D20 some D20 future elements makes a good way to model a "cyberpunk fantasy" world, which I have done in the past. Despite my above post, I do like D20 modern but I just find it far less realistic then shadowrun and M&M is better then most systems anyway since it can model basically anything with creative character building. However, D20 modern still has it's place and can be used to do some creative things and D20 Naruto is a fine example of that.

Also, not to get off topic or anything but if you like horror movies, necromancy or both then there is a great 3rd Party supplement for D20 Modern known as "Blood and Brains" that has a slew of zombie film and horror film stuff such as staring occupations like "Scream Queen," awesome feats that allow you to pull off some of your favorite horror movie combat moves, all kinds of zombies(Including Nazi Zombies!), a D20 modern Necromancer.(an advance class like all other casters, obviously.) and another advance class that basically lets you play Carrie. Fun book for horror fans and necromancy enthusiasts alike.

The point of this plug? D20 Modern dose have some degree of flexibility and COULD model the shadowrun world. However, shadowrun still thrives because it is a very different set of rules from the D20 system and thus is a unique and fun gameplay experience. Sure, you can use D20 modern to make a "shadowrun" type setting but shadowrun has it's own special mechanics and own, unique gameplay style which D20 Modern can't create. Thus, that's why people bother with shadowrun, because they like the crunch as well as the fluff and sometimes D20 over and over and over again can get rather old and new systems are a good way to get out of the doldrums.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yeah. However, UA, with D20 some D20 future elements makes a good way to model a "cyberpunk fantasy" world, which I have done in the past. Despite my above post, I do like D20 modern but I just find it far less realistic then shadowrun and M&M is better then most systems anyway since it can model basically anything with creative character building. However, D20 modern still has it's place and can be used to do some creative things and D20 Naruto is a fine example of that.

Oddly enough, it's the lack of realism (where it matters) that makes me love d20 modern so much. It's much more suited towards 'cinematic' games which...is what I prefer to run to be honest. Dynamic action ahoy!


Also, not to get off topic or anything but if you like horror movies, necromancy or both then there is a great 3rd Party supplement for D20 Modern known as "Blood and Brains" that has a slew of zombie film and horror film stuff such as staring occupations like "Scream Queen," awesome feats that allow you to pull off some of your favorite horror movie combat moves, all kinds of zombies(Including Nazi Zombies!), a D20 modern Necromancer.(an advance class like all other casters, obviously.) and another advance class that basically lets you play Carrie. Fun book for horror fans and necromancy enthusiasts alike.

...I demand to know more. As much as you can tell me. Do you know who the publisher is?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Why would you ever play Urban Arcana or Shadowrun when you could play d20 modern homebrew?

I always found fantasy monsters shoe-horned into a modern setting rediculous. Wouldn't people wonder why the orcs resemble something made up by some university professor in the 40s rather than anything that's existed in folklore for centuries?

If I wanted tech and post-modernism in a fantasy setting I'd rather have something like Discworld and if I wanted magic in a modern setting I'd rather have something more grounded in mythology than pulp.

[Tyndmyr]

So I just read through this for the first time.

My question is: why would anyone ever bother with Shadowrun?

I've had this thought as well. Don't get me wrong, I own shadowrun, and have nothing against it. I just feel that D20 modern lends itself quite well to futuristic & modern fantasy campaigns. I'd agree that if you want the specific shadowrun setting, well, picking up that might be a good move. But for anything that isn't specifically that, but the same general genre, I'd go D20 modern/future with appropriate supplements.

I wouldn't consider D20 modern to be all that similar to D&D. Many differences. First, ranged builds are vastly better compared to melee. You just need a competent ranged build. These come in two main flavors.

1. I just fired two times from each hand on autofire, all of which hit everyone in each area targetted. I heroic surge and do it again. Now I'm going to roll my damage dice. Hand me that bucket.

2. Hi. I have a big gun. In this game system, massive damage happens when any damage system exceeds a con score. You make a level 1 character deal 3d12 per hit at range without delving into exotic weaponry or magic. If I hit someone, they die horrifically.

Melee characters have the potential for large hits as well...but they have to get to melee first, in a world filled with guns that are ever so much more lethal than ranged weapons in D&D.

Also, magic is much weaker than D&D. I dare say it's fairly well balanced. Hacking in D20M is much more suited to modern computer technology than cyberpunk. Im unfamiliar with hacking in D20 future, but this doesn't seem that ridiculous.

Personally, I'd probably only break out shadowrun if I wanted a very specific type of game. Cyberpunk setting, and gameplay very focused on running and avoiding combat. For anything else similar, but not that exactly, grab the appropriate D20M/D20F books and run with it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I am not at my own computer so I sadly can't get the info on blood and brains right now since it's a PDF that I actually had to buy....but it's VERY cheep and well worth the money. Trust me. The stuff I only mentioned was the tip of the iceburg. There are other advance classes too.(Including a Divine Necromancer with a "voodoo" flavor and a mad scientist advance class that makes undead with science rather then magic.). Oh, and some of those feats are quite awesome...there are ones that let you play "evil dead" and use chainsaws like Ash and even some feats that make using improvised weapons(a common thing in horror) actually viable.

When I get back home I will give your more details on how to actually get this pdf.

As far as magic in D20 modern, yeah, it is a lot more ballanced then 3.5e and I personally prefer it to shadowrun's magic system. I have played D20 Modern as a Necromancer(From Blood and Brains...) and found that it was far more ballanced then D&D...I actually had to rely on things other then my spells, though I did eventually have a sizeable undead legion under my command.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I am not at my own computer so I sadly can't get the info on blood and brains right now since it's a PDF that I actually had to buy....but it's VERY cheep and well worth the money. Trust me. The stuff I only mentioned was the tip of the iceburg. There are other advance classes too.(Including a Divine Necromancer with a "voodoo" flavor and a mad scientist advance class that makes undead with science rather then magic.). Oh, and some of those feats are quite awesome...there are ones that let you play "evil dead" and use chainsaws like Ash and even some feats that make using improvised weapons(a common thing in horror) actually viable.

When I get back home I will give your more details on how to actually get this pdf.

As far as magic in D20 modern, yeah, it is a lot more ballanced then 3.5e and I personally prefer it to shadowrun's magic system. I have played D20 Modern as a Necromancer(From Blood and Brains...) and found that it was far more ballanced then D&D...I actually had to rely on things other then my spells, though I did eventually have a sizeable undead legion under my command.

No need, I intend to buy the book in a day or so. I found a preview and reviews for it online and...I'm utterly and completely sold on it, especially for the price it's going at.

Tyndmyr: Er...I think you might be under some misconceptions about ranged combat and massive damage.

1) First build, sure you can fire on autofire for as many attacks as you have but A) You have to hit (normally not a problem, even at low levels) and B) your opponents need to fail the save to take ANY damage at all (it's not for half, like most reflex saves) So...you CAN do it, but unless it's against mooks (or you have a surplus of ammunition you just HAVE to get rid of) then it's not that helpful.

2nd build) How are you GETTING that weapon? Or the ammo for it? They usually require specific licenses to get, at minium.

On Massive Damage: Er..you DO know there is a save right? A 'not entirely difficult' save, right? I mean..there's always the risk of rolling a one or if you are a low Con/low Fort. build but it's not a huge risk if you are careful. And melee definitely has it's own place, that being able to more reliably hit the massive damage threshhold then guns when you count in Str. modifier, melee smash, and/or Power Attack (which can only go to 5, but still!). The problem with melee is getting close to the enemy without being riddled with bullets, but hey...everything needs SOME thinking.