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View Full Version : [d&d 3.5] Roc, how to fight one



Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 06:26 AM
click for Roc stats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm)

I am wondering how my party is going to fight a roc.

Melee Fighters: Since the Roc has a 15ft reach i am guessing he can fly over them without getting in reach of their weapons, while trying to snatch them. They will either have to go ranged or find a way to get more reach. Or fly.
Ranged attacks: will work but the 200+ hp will be enough for a bunch of attacks.

The roc will swoop in and attack one player, if the attack hits (extremely likely since it's attack bonus is huge) it can grapple him (which it will win) and take off, back to its nest while crushing the life out of that person.

I think most of them have a way to teleport, so they can get back on the ground.

I was wondering if there is a way to avoid being grappled by it at all, can they ready to jump away?

FelixG
2010-11-29, 06:29 AM
Prepare action and trip it, tripped things with wings take a nice nose dive into the ground.

Now you just have to find out how to beat it while flying, some GMs might let you ready an action to take a swipe at its feet when it comes in to strike

Acanous
2010-11-29, 06:30 AM
You can ready an action to attack any creature with reach as it's attacking you, even if it's attacking you from outside your reach. It's in the rules compendium somewhere.
Aside from that, yeah. Go ranged.

fireinakasha
2010-11-29, 06:32 AM
Forget tripping it. Ready action to jump on to it and grab hold - a grapple check or climb check, at DM's discretion - and then continue to maintain the grapple while you stab it to death. Then you receive bonus XP for the stylish defeat.

Shadow of the Colossus style.

AstralFire
2010-11-29, 06:45 AM
I regret to inform you that you can't stop.

Can't stop the Roc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO4Usj3hHNc).

JaronK
2010-11-29, 06:48 AM
You realize 2 points of Int damage takes it out instantly? And that there's a spell that just does that (as a touch attack)?

Now it's helpless. Tie it down. Get someone with a decent handle animal. Make it your pet. Ride it around town.

JaronK

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 07:04 AM
Prepare action and trip it, tripped things with wings take a nice nose dive into the ground.

Now you just have to find out how to beat it while flying, some GMs might let you ready an action to take a swipe at its feet when it comes in to strike

My players are not Huge.


You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.



You can ready an action to attack any creature with reach as it's attacking you, even if it's attacking you from outside your reach. It's in the rules compendium somewhere.
Aside from that, yeah. Go ranged.

This makes sense, that will help them a lot.


Forget tripping it. Ready action to jump on to it and grab hold - a grapple check or climb check, at DM's discretion - and then continue to maintain the grapple while you stab it to death. Then you receive bonus XP for the stylish defeat.

Shadow of the Colossus style.

It has a +37 grapple check, but yes, i can imagine i do not stick with RAW and make it a climb check, but then what, the roc flies up 80 ft per round. Get ready for quite a stylish death.


You realize 2 points of Int damage takes it out instantly? And that there's a spell that just does that (as a touch attack)?

Now it's helpless. Tie it down. Get someone with a decent handle animal. Make it your pet. Ride it around town.

JaronK

Yes, the party however does not have that spell.

fireinakasha
2010-11-29, 07:09 AM
It has a +37 grapple check, but yes, i can imagine i do not stick with RAW and make it a climb check, but then what, the roc flies up 80 ft per round. Get ready for quite a stylish death.

The simple solution here is to grab hold of the roc's wings and lock them into place, and then glide back down on its body. duh :smallwink:

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 07:14 AM
I am guessing you are being sarcastic as at that point you will need a grapple check.......i am not sure any of my players can make it in the best case scenaria (1vs20).

ZeroNumerous
2010-11-29, 07:19 AM
I was wondering if there is a way to avoid being grappled by it at all, can they ready to jump away?

A Ring of Freedom of Movement(or a casting of the spell) negates all grapple checks. Alternatively, casting the spell also negates all grapple checks(albeit, this takes longer than just wearing rings).

Either way, since it's CR 9 I assume the players have 4th level spells.

Bestow Curse(Intelligence) nukes it into unconsciousness instantly. Charm Monster instantly defeats it. Summon Monster IV(large fiendish monstrous spider) can cause it to fall to the ground and allow the party to stab it. Black Tentacles or Solid Fog can force it to the ground.

The only mundane way to force it to the ground would be ready action to throw a Huge or Gargantuan net on it.

EDIT:


I am guessing you are being sarcastic as at that point you will need a grapple check.......i am not sure any of my players can make it in the best case scenaria (1vs20).

No, everyone's making the assumption that you're willing to bend the rules for a fun and interesting game.

Signmaker
2010-11-29, 07:25 AM
Well you see, first you need to remove the Dragonsblood pool from the Universe so he doesn't go by his usual early-entry caster trick....

oh wait, wrong Roc.


Thing to note: "Grappling and Flying Away" corresponds to 1. A grapple check and 2. Fending off other players, who will likely try to stop you. If you want 2 to occur, you have to take a -20 penalty to the grab (as per improved grab) to retain useful things like Dex to AC (deny sneak attacks off the grapple), natural reach, and being able to attack back. So while the +39 is an intimidating number, it requires a bit of smart play.

I'd assume that the proper play would be for everyone to do their usual part. The caster is likely to have some sort of Fog spell or Ray spell which is able to hamper or injure the Roc, the Rogue-type is going to be able to sneak attack unless you take the -20, etc. It doesn't actually do all too much damage at its CR, either, which means that the trapped party member can tank it while the Ranged party members do tricks. And that's doing it the hard way. It has a terrible Touch AC and a targetable Will save (Can you say "Hold Monsterrrrrrrrrsplat"?), so the Caster has plenty of options open.

fireinakasha
2010-11-29, 07:33 AM
No, everyone's making the assumption that you're willing to bend the rules for a fun and interesting game.

Half sarcasm, half this.

On a somewhat more realistic note, maybe they could attach one end of a chain to a grappling hook, then the other end to the ground. It would be up to you to determine how to arbitrate this on a mechanical level, but I imagine that a roc that has been tied to the ground should be easy to summarily defeat.

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 07:43 AM
No, everyone's making the assumption that you're willing to bend the rules for a fun and interesting game.

I am quite sure my players would not enjoy that. I mean, the thing is Gargantuan, not large, my players do not enjoy completely unrealistic (as far as that goes in a fantasy setting) actions.


Thing to note: "Grappling and Flying Away" corresponds to 1. A grapple check and 2. Fending off other players, who will likely try to stop you. If you want 2 to occur, you have to take a -20 penalty to the grab (as per improved grab) to retain useful things like Dex to AC (deny sneak attacks off the grapple), natural reach, and being able to attack back. So while the +39 is an intimidating number, it requires a bit of smart play.

I'd assume that the proper play would be for everyone to do their usual part. The caster is likely to have some sort of Fog spell or Ray spell which is able to hamper or injure the Roc, the Rogue-type is going to be able to sneak attack unless you take the -20, etc. It doesn't actually do all too much damage at its CR, either, which means that the trapped party member can tank it while the Ranged party members do tricks. And that's doing it the hard way. It has a terrible Touch AC and a targetable Will save (Can you say "Hold Monsterrrrrrrrrsplat"?), so the Caster has plenty of options open.

Where does the -20 come from if players want to stop it? Also how would the others stop it if the roc can snatch it's prey and fly away in the same round.

AslanCross
2010-11-29, 07:51 AM
Prepare action and trip it, tripped things with wings take a nice nose dive into the ground.

Now you just have to find out how to beat it while flying, some GMs might let you ready an action to take a swipe at its feet when it comes in to strike

It has a massive size modifier for being Gargantuan, though.

Signmaker
2010-11-29, 07:55 AM
Where does the -20 come from if players want to stop it? Also how would the others stop it if the roc can snatch it's prey and fly away in the same round.

Stopping the Roc isn't really a necessity if it is simply grabbing the Fighter. If it doesn't take the penalty, its AC is reduced to 15, which should be QUITE hittable for any Ranged player. If you happen to have a Rogue, they're also netting lots of Sneak Attack damage dice, which means that the 207 or so HP will get chipped away methodically.

The -20 is done by the controller of the Roc (you, I'm presuming) when the Improved Grab grapple is attempted. As per the text of Improved Grab, taking a -20 means that you free your other limbs from the grapple, which allows Dex to AC, Natural Reach, AoOs, etc. If you feel as though +39 is too high, use +19 instead so that while the Roc is harder to hit/approach, the Fighter has a better chance of getting out.

If players want to stop the Roc, they have a caster, yes? Bother the caster, who should have 5th level spells by now, and therefore a large number of ways to simply stop the thing. Even Solid Fog makes it drop like a roc(k).

The Roc, as listed, can't get far enough away in one round to escape medium-range spells.

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 07:56 AM
It has a massive size modifier for being Gargantuan, though.

It does not matter. Like i already said:

My players are not Huge.



You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

fireinakasha
2010-11-29, 08:01 AM
I am quite sure my players would not enjoy that. I mean, the thing is Gargantuan, not large, my players do not enjoy completely unrealistic (as far as that goes in a fantasy setting) actions.

I find your player's lack of imagination disturbing.

Their punishment shall be a long and tedious procession of ranged attack rolls. :smallyuk:

OH BUT WAIT!
There would be no opposed grapple check to lock the wings in order to glide back down, if the roc is unconscious or dead. So just keep making those climb checks and beating on it until it's down, then glide. Easy!

Edit: If one of your players has the ability to deliver a stunning blow, they can just ready action to swing to stun at the roc. A stunned roc can't fly, as it cannot maintain the minimum speed required to stay airborne.

Edit 2: Along the same lines, they could invest in some poison with a stun or paralysis effect, or some other effect that would deny the roc movement.

Edit 3:


You realize 2 points of Int damage takes it out instantly? And that there's a spell that just does that (as a touch attack)?

I am pretty sure there is also a poison that does that... yeah, here it is. DMG poison, Id Moss. Of course, for any of the DMG poisons, the roc would have to roll a 1 to be effected, but at least that's more of a chance for it to work than trying to trip it...

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 08:17 AM
I find your player's lack of imagination disturbing.


There are a lot of interesting things they can come up with. But holding down the wings of a 8000 pound animal with a 80 feet wingspan as a medium sized-character is not something they would think off. That is not a lack of imagination, but the presence of common sense.

Signmaker
2010-11-29, 08:24 AM
So, about those spells? =P

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-29, 08:25 AM
It seems to me like you're really pushing against everyone suggestions and continuing to say that your players can't do it. Well, if they can't do it then maybe your best answer would be to not make them fight it. Sustitite somethingthey *can* fight. Something that doesn't fly and just sits r
there and takes it.


Honestly though, all the suggestions I have read are very valid and interesting ways to kill it. Throw your players a bone.

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 08:35 AM
It seems to me like you're really pushing against everyone suggestions and continuing to say that your players can't do it. Well, if they can't do it then maybe your best answer would be to not make them fight it. Sustitite somethingthey *can* fight. Something that doesn't fly and just sits r
there and takes it.


Honestly though, all the suggestions I have read are very valid and interesting ways to kill it. Throw your players a bone.

The suggestions i have actively fought against are tripping (simply isn't possible) and grappling the wings of the gargantuan roc (which isn't possible either).

The other suggestions i have taken seriously. I did not know about the -20 to grapple and you may have interpretted my question where it came from as a "that's not true, proof it!". With the -20 penalty or the rogue archer in the party being able to sneak it will give them more of an edge, that combined with the option to ready an action against a creature with reach (which i did not know of) should give them a decent chance to battle the creature without even getting into spells.
Jumping on a roc is definitely an option for my players, but more than half of them would not enjoy falling a great distance.
I am not saying all ideas are bad. In fact, except the ones i mentioned first, they should all work, but that does not mean they work for my party if they simply do not have the ability to do so. I have however seen suggestions that might work for my party (like fog).

Tyger
2010-11-29, 08:52 AM
You can ready an action to attack any creature with reach as it's attacking you, even if it's attacking you from outside your reach. It's in the rules compendium somewhere.
Aside from that, yeah. Go ranged.

Care to site that?

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 08:58 AM
Care to site that?

I just checked the Rules Compendium and was not able to locate it.

Tyger
2010-11-29, 09:00 AM
I just checked the Rules Compendium and was not able to locate it.

Yeah, I've read that cover to cover a couple times, and that never caught my eye before. I have a funny feeling the original post was tongue in cheek, but on the off chance that it wasn't I thought I'd ask politely. :smallbiggrin:

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 09:17 AM
That said, i can imagine i would still allow it them to chop at the claws with reduced damage maybe or a treshold damage that will disable that specific claw for grappling.

Acanous
2010-11-29, 10:15 AM
Care to site that?

looking for it now, actually.
Bloody compendium is like reading through a RIFTS book.

If not I might be thinking something in Pathfinder,[Edit: Nope, Pathfinder states you can't do that specifically. (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/pathfinderRPGBeta/generalPrerelease/greaterSunderHasMeThinkingSunderFuVrsReachWeapons) Which makes their "Strike Back" feat useful.] but I was pretty sure the rule was 3.5. It came out when our gaming group was fighting a giant from the other side of a partial wall. Giant was staying far enough away to try hitting them despite the cover bonus, and couldn't be counterattacked. Diddn't help that it was dark and only one player could draw LoS on the giant reliably. One guy got the idea to attack the giant's arm when he swung, and so a bunch of rules had to be checked; readying actions, attacking something when you (technically) don't have line of sight, and the reach rules.

No luck so far, but I'll keep looking. I did, however, find something cool in here while looking through the RC about things with natural reach using reach weapons >:}

Ernir
2010-11-29, 10:26 AM
Your players will be fine. Players are a troublesomely inventive lot.

Worst case scenario, the Roc flies off with whoever of the party looks the tastiest, and feeds him to its young. Not like it's going to cause a TPK when it's just out hunting*. :smalltongue:

*Mothers defending their nests may behave differently.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-29, 10:32 AM
And don't forget that fighting and succeeding in killing isn't always the option. If your players are in the encounter with the Roc and find they can't beat them, then perhaps it would be wise of you to encourage them to flee the encounter so they all survive. Remember that parties always have to be outmatched sometime during their adventuring career and be forced to realize there's things out there stronger than they are. This isn't showing weakness, it shows intelligence and wisdom and knowing your character's limits. If you look at any type of fiction/fantasy novels out there, there's countless examples of this. It provides believability and a more immersive story, even though they're running. If they do run after fighting the Roc and realizing they can't win, perhaps throw some bonus experience their way for giving it their best shot.

On the tripping note:
Trip
Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.
Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone

Perhaps this link could help you as well:
Tactics Against Flying Creatures (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060117a)

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 10:51 AM
Oh i am definitely a DM that can give credit for knowing when to retreat and have prepared for such a tactic. Knowing my players i very much doubt they will take that option.

The trip part seems logical, but it does not negate the rule about sizes, hence it cannot be tripped. Look in the PHB and compare the human to the Dragon, now make the dragon about 20% smaller and pretend the human is tripping the dragon without laughing.....no, i said without laughing.

Person_Man
2010-11-29, 10:53 AM
Actually, the 1 time I've ever seen the Monk's Slow Fall ability be useful was when fighting a Roc. It swooped in, Grappled the Monk, flew up 60 feet, and then dropped the Monk. Fun times.

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 10:56 AM
Actually, the 1 time I've ever seen the Monk's Slow Fall ability be useful was when fighting a Roc. It swooped in, Grappled the Monk, flew up 60 feet, and then dropped the Monk. Fun times.

I never played a monk, but doesn't that only work if you fall next to a wall?

AstralFire
2010-11-29, 10:58 AM
I never played a monk, but doesn't that only work if you fall next to a wall?

Could have fallen next to a cliff?

true_shinken
2010-11-29, 11:01 AM
Dealing Int damage looks like the best bet. Any spell targeting Will should make it a lot easier, if not an instant win.

Knowing your party composition would help a lot.

Knaight
2010-11-29, 11:09 AM
It does not matter. Like i already said:

My players characters are not Huge.

That's not all that hard to rectify. In any case, Large (enlarge person) and a reach weapon is all it takes to be able to take swats at the bird, so trip is unnecessary in any case.

Toliudar
2010-11-29, 11:09 AM
Minor image of a fat and tasty-looking, but fast, horse, drawing the roc's attention for a couple of rounds while you fill it with arrows and other forms of ranged damage.

Invisibility and hide checks to avoid the thing while it's still 500' up (RAW, spot checks at any distance are phenomenally difficult).

Earthbind - 2nd level spell. Not sure-fire, but potentially very useful.

Charm monster. If this is a level-appropriate encounter, you've got about a 50/50 chance of it failing its save.

Or my favourite: go inside. Use terrain. Unless it's going to, for whatever reason, take a whole building/stand of trees/etc apart to get to the group, it won't be able to reach you. And if it does attack the structure, then either that's going to take time and a number of strafing runs (allowing the players to strafe back) or else it has to land, reducing its threat considerably.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-29, 11:51 AM
Oh i am definitely a DM that can give credit for knowing when to retreat and have prepared for such a tactic. Knowing my players i very much doubt they will take that option.

The trip part seems logical, but it does not negate the rule about sizes, hence it cannot be tripped. Look in the PHB and compare the human to the Dragon, now make the dragon about 20% smaller and pretend the human is tripping the dragon without laughing.....no, i said without laughing.

Just for the luls of being close-lined by a Roc, I'd be the player to give it my best shot to try and stop it during one of it's swoops.

true_shinken
2010-11-29, 12:06 PM
You know what? Just summon a horde of angels.

Thrawn183
2010-11-29, 12:12 PM
Summon a bison and let it eat that instead.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-11-29, 01:57 PM
If the OP were to give us the makeup of the party it might help. I'm beginning to get the impression that if there is a caster at all, he's a blaster type. If there's no caster, or if all his spells are direct damage, then spell suggestions are somewhat less than helpful. Inspite of this i'm going to point out the web spell. Entagle the roc, then set it on fire. If you time it right (read, readied action) you can match its facing to the facing of the web and net 32d4 of damage.

Edit: I didn't actually intend to make a pun there, but there it is anyway.

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 02:07 PM
There are 2 clerics (not full), one of them can cast level 3 spells, one of them can cast level 4 spells. I don't have their exact spell lists at this moment, but usefull spells i can think of right now: Fly, Darkness, Spiritual Weapon, Blindness (Fort is too high i think).
No arcane spellcasters.

Eldariel
2010-11-29, 03:02 PM
Actually, the 1 time I've ever seen the Monk's Slow Fall ability be useful was when fighting a Roc. It swooped in, Grappled the Monk, flew up 60 feet, and then dropped the Monk. Fun times.

Dropped the Monk next to a wall? Otherwise the ability does nothing.


But at the OP:
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +9

There's your answer. Though without Arcanists it becomes harder; you could try e.g. Bestow Curse. That'd be a handy debuff. It flies poorly so making it skip even one turn worth of actions would cause it to fall down. Only prob is, it's a Touch-spell; I guess they don't happen to have a Cleric with Tumble and Air Walk? Or Rod of Lesser Reach Spell?

Enlarge Person on melee (either from a Potion or a Cleric with Strength-domain) would also allow them to outreach it. Something to consider. Honestly tho, if they don't have casters capable of either debuffing it or buffing the party, they're pretty ****ed. They should hole up somewhere it can't reach and take potshots at it until it goes away. Spiritual Weapon could probably frighten it away, since it can do nothing about it and probably doesn't understand what it is. It's got too high HP to really kill it outside melee tho. A charger with Air Walk could deal him, but I assume you don't have one handy.


EDIT: Really, this is really hard without knowing what the players DO have access to. Care to site the party?

Person_Man
2010-11-29, 04:14 PM
I never played a monk, but doesn't that only work if you fall next to a wall?

You are correct. We were climbing a mountain during a snow storm. Stumbled upon Roc nest on our way up. Roc Grapples Monk, flies up, and drops him. Monk had Slow Fall 50 ft and plenty of Tumble and Climb. He was close enough to the mountain edge that Slow Fall kicked in. Not that 6d6 would have been deadly, but it was literally the only time I've seen the Slow Fall ability used. In fact, I think the DM might have targeted the Monk specifically to make him feel like that ability was useful.

AstralFire
2010-11-29, 04:15 PM
In fact, I think the DM might have targeted the Monk specifically to make him feel like that ability was useful.

You have a good DM. Tell him kudos. :smallcool:

Godskook
2010-11-29, 04:17 PM
Doc Roc? You don't fight Doc Roc, you *RUN* away and hope that doing so is more than just prolonging your death.

Oh, wait, we're not talking about Jake? Nvrmind then........

Keld Denar
2010-11-29, 04:31 PM
A Solid Fog can ground one. Check the combat flight rules. Standard, by-the-book Rocs have an "average" maneuverability class and DON'T have the Hover feat. That means that they have a minimum forward movement of half of their movement speed. If your wizard readies an action to Solid Fog it when it swoops, you can ground it on the next round. Depending on how far its moved to swoop down at you, position the Fog so that 10'-15' of it overlaps with the back 10'-15' of the Roc. If it hasn't moved far enough to be considered a double move, position it with 15' overlap. If it has, use 10' overlap. That'll stop its current movement. If it has an extra move action, it'll use that to move 5' forward. Its next turn, in order to not stall and fall, it'll have to move forward. It'll move 5' forward as one move action, and 5' forward as its other move action. Thats only 10', far less than the 40' minimum it'll have to go. That means it'll stall. But at that point, it'll just emerge from the Solid Fog, meaning its stall is unrestricted. It'll drop at least 150' (given that Solid Fog is short range, this is far enough), take a small amount of damage, and best of all, be grounded. Now you can sick your BSFs on it and pummel it. If you want to keep it from lifting off the ground, place another Solid Fog above it, overlapping just enough of it that it can't more more than 5'. Then box it in with meat shields and/or summons.

This trick works well against dragons too. Solid Fog has no save or SR, so it grounds them nicely.

ZeroNumerous
2010-11-29, 05:08 PM
Solid Fog

They don't have an Arcane Caster, nor do they have a cleric capable of casting Greater Anyspell.

As a general point of advice though: Ya, the idea is fairly nice.



e.g. Bestow Curse. That'd be a handy debuff. It flies poorly so making it skip even one turn worth of actions would cause it to fall down.

Pick the INT penalty instead, it'll automatically lose the encounter then.


Only prob is, it's a Touch-spell

A ready action, a slab of steak and jumping up and down yelling "Eat me" will make that a non-issue.

fireinakasha
2010-11-29, 05:10 PM
... but usefull spells i can think of right now: Fly, ...

Alright, here is the crucial information.

So, let's go back to my first idea. The rogue or fighter or cleric who can't cast fly (just one of them, in that order of preference) ready action to jump onto the rock and climb up onto it. Then, they stab it to death while hanging on for dear life (this is why the rogue is highest preference; sneak attack damage most definitely applies here).

Meanwhile, the cleric casts fly, holds the charge on the touch, and readies action when the roc starts falling to run underneath the rogue and tag him with the fly spell.

The roc eventually dies, and they both plummet. Cleric's readied action triggers and he gets under the rogue (should have been using his move action each turn to stay close), and tags him with fly. Thanks to the wonky rules of falling and readied actions in D&D, this works because the rogue will instantaneously fall to right above the ground, and then just sort of get stuck there while the cleric gets into position and touches him.

With fly on him, the climber is no longer falling. Roc is dead, no party deaths, everyone is win!

I am, again, only half-sarcastic with this. In the sense that, while I don't expect it to completely work, if I were a player in this game I would try it.

The other (more boring) option is to just cast fly on everybody, or as many as possible. The roc has a faster fly speed than those with the spell, but those with the spell are substantially more maneuverable, and could beat the roc through clever positioning in order to force it to draw AoOs.

Edit: If this were the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, you could just cast fly on the roc and it would smash into the ground.

AslanCross
2010-11-29, 06:07 PM
It does not matter. Like i already said:

My players are not Huge.

That too; I only saw that after I had posted.

Thane of Fife
2010-11-29, 06:35 PM
Pick the INT penalty instead, it'll automatically lose the encounter then.


Bestow Curse explicitly disallows reducing abilities below 1, so I don't think that that works.

dgnslyr
2010-11-30, 12:18 AM
Ray of Stupidity
/thread

Kelb_Panthera
2010-11-30, 12:36 AM
Ray of Stupidity
/thread

Unless that's a 4th level or lower cleric spell, /thread

dgnslyr
2010-11-30, 12:59 AM
It's a second level Wizard/Sorcerer spell, offers no save, and does 1d4+1 Int damage. It's notable for being able to instantly put down any Animal. It's in the Spell Compendium.

fireinakasha
2010-11-30, 01:01 AM
Some more ideas:

Moon lust is a 1st level Cleric spell in the Spell Compendium. Failed will save fascinates the target, which would prevent it from moving, and then it would fall.

Downdraft is a 3rd level Cleric Spell Compendium spell. Knocks it out of the air, but doesn't prevent it from getting back up again.

Wrack is a 4th level Cleric SC spell, knocks the target prone and helpless. But it's a fort save, so probably not very useful against a roc, unless maybe you bestow curse first.

On the bestow curse front, cursing it's Int would be useless (as already suggested), but cursing it with a 50% chance to not be able to move (and therefore fall) seems like an extremely viable option.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-30, 01:08 AM
Lessee... spells of cleric4 or under that might help..

Air Walk
Animate Dead
Cloud of Knives
Corona of Cold
Divine Storm
DOWNDRAFT
Haboob
Lesser Planar Ally
Searing Light
Summon Monster
Summon Undead
Updraft

JaronK
2010-11-30, 01:12 AM
It's a second level Wizard/Sorcerer spell, offers no save, and does 1d4+1 Int damage. It's notable for being able to instantly put down any Animal. It's in the Spell Compendium.

...and I mentioned it a long time ago. The OP declared his players didn't have (and evidently couldn't get) the spell.

JaronK

Godskook
2010-11-30, 01:18 AM
Alright, here is the crucial information.

So, let's go back to my first idea. The rogue or fighter or cleric who can't cast fly (just one of them, in that order of preference) ready action to jump onto the rock and climb up onto it. Then, they stab it to death while hanging on for dear life (this is why the rogue is highest preference; sneak attack damage most definitely applies here).

Meanwhile, the cleric casts fly, holds the charge on the touch, and readies action when the roc starts falling to run underneath the rogue and tag him with the fly spell.

The roc eventually dies, and they both plummet. Cleric's readied action triggers and he gets under the rogue (should have been using his move action each turn to stay close), and tags him with fly. Thanks to the wonky rules of falling and readied actions in D&D, this works because the rogue will instantaneously fall to right above the ground, and then just sort of get stuck there while the cleric gets into position and touches him.

With fly on him, the climber is no longer falling. Roc is dead, no party deaths, everyone is win!

I am, again, only half-sarcastic with this. In the sense that, while I don't expect it to completely work, if I were a player in this game I would try it.

Pretty sure the roc could outpace the the ground-bound party easily enough to make this tactic unreliable at best.

fireinakasha
2010-11-30, 01:43 AM
Pretty sure the roc could outpace the the ground-bound party easily enough to make this tactic unreliable at best.

Not if you used the run action.

Of course, then you wouldn't be able to ready action, but I think you could make a pretty reasonable argument that the rogue provokes AoO for attempting to fall into your square, and you could deliver fly through that AoO...

....

OKAY ALRIGHT... fine! I admit it. Jeez. It's not at all feasible to climb onto the roc and ride it to death. You people never let me have any fun :smallfrown:

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 01:49 AM
Not if you used the run action.

Of course, then you wouldn't be able to ready action, but I think you could make a pretty reasonable argument that the rogue provokes AoO for attempting to fall into your square, and you could deliver fly through that AoO...

....

OKAY ALRIGHT... fine! I admit it. Jeez. It's not at all feasible to climb onto the roc and ride it to death. You people never let me have any fun :smallfrown:

We do. We only require you do it properly so we can do the same thing in our own games :smallwink:

Runestar
2010-11-30, 05:42 AM
Distract it with a summoned snack monster while you flee for your lives? :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2010-11-30, 05:55 AM
...Most clerics can't cast Fly... The ones that can, by default, can only do so once per day. So 'make everyone Fly' won't, ahem, fly.

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 05:58 AM
...Most clerics can't cast Fly... The ones that can, by default, can only do so once per day. So 'make everyone Fly' won't, ahem, fly.

Air Walk IS a Cleric-spell though.

Gnaritas
2010-11-30, 05:58 AM
It is a random encounter, they have a 25% chance to encounter it at this point. In any case, they will not be able to prepare specifically for this battle as they have no idea that it is coming.
That said, both clerics are variants with spontaneous spellcasting and spells known as a sorcerer.

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 06:01 AM
It is a random encounter, they have a 25% chance to encounter it at this point. In any case, they will not be able to prepare specifically for this battle as they have no idea that it is coming.
That said, both clerics are variants with spontaneous spellcasting and spells known as a sorcerer.

What are the other party members, if any?

Gnaritas
2010-11-30, 06:02 AM
Dwarf Barbarian
Goliath Warblade
Human Rogue (Archer)

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 06:08 AM
Dwarf Barbarian
Goliath Warblade
Human Rogue (Archer)

It wouldn't happen that they have reach weapons along with Enlarge Person Pots or spell from a Cleric available? 'cause that would help them. A lot. Or if Warblade has Tumble, Air Walking/Flying him could allow him to engage without provoking every second. Rogue will obviously do his thing but outside readied actions, chances are he won't get Sneak Attacks.

Hm. I'd imagine the party would defeat the Roc in a straight-up fight so the big question is if they manage to force it to engage in such a fight. If they can teleport, as you said, Snatch isn't gonna GG them meaning it'll actually be a fight of some sort. Tough fight but definitely winnable. Some AoOs will be provoked, but ultimately it's still action economy working against the Roc big time.