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View Full Version : Hiding Out: A Discussion about stealth in DnD (3.5)



tenshiakodo
2010-11-29, 10:50 AM
I'd made a comment in another thread about my perception of Hide and Move Silently. I came off as a bit strong and denounced investment in these skills to be a waste of points as the game progressed, but I'm looking to revise my opinion.

And I'm doing it in a nice new thread, so as not to continue to derail the original thread (which seems to say that "casters do not unbalance the game as long as you concentrate on roleplay, ignore mechanics, and run multiple characters at the same time").

Anyways, here's my position.

Opening a Monster Manual, or simply going to the SRD, an interesting trend can be observed. If a creature has Skill Points, it's given ranks in Listen and or Spot almost invariably.

If a creature has Feats, somewhere along the line, it is almost invariably given Alertness.

Further, there are a variety of monster abilities that counteract Hide and Move Silently. Each one has limitations, but within their "zone of influence", they allow for detection without making a Spot or Listen check at all.

Darkvision appears to negate concealment based on darkness (it's never outright stated that it does, to my knowledge, but being able to 'see in darkness' sort of implies it), which is handed out like candy.

Scent is also quite common, and, again, within it's range, it detects without making any die roll or check (the only mechanics are for tracking by scent).

And I won't even discuss more powerful abilities, such as Tremorsense and Blindsight.

So it does appear that, from the beginning of the game, being able to sneak around is something of an arms race. Players must invest heavily to make these skills effective...and not just in the skills themselves!

Magic items to boost skill checks or bypass abilities like darkvision, taking PrC's or simply taking a normal class to high levels to acquire Hide in Plain Sight, and so on.

The argument was presented that True Seeing doesn't work versus ordinary Hide, thus possibly making 'mundane' stealth a potential way to overcome casters, but I feel that becomes a slippery slope, as magical means to foil stealth do exist, and I hate the whole "Shrodinger's Wizard" argument.

So I'm asking the forum in general; in your experience, is investment in Hide and Move Silently worthwhile at all stages of the game, even though the deck seems to be stacked against the player investing in said abilities?

(Please refrain from discussing Epic uses of these Skills if possible; I'm aware that you can do amazing things with Epic Skill Checks, but these aren't available in most games).

The-Mage-King
2010-11-29, 10:53 AM
Pick up Darstalker from LoM, and yes, it is. If things with tremorsense can't detect you...

tenshiakodo
2010-11-29, 11:05 AM
Darkstalker is certainly a good way to make the skills remain relevant, although it has a few problems of it's own. Lords of Madness is a fairly obscure resource to draw from, and even then, it's still a "tax", as you're forced to expend a resource in addition to the skill points to keep those skill points relevant.

The question is though, if you can't take the Feat, is stealth worth it?

Greenish
2010-11-29, 11:05 AM
I'd made a comment in another thread about my perception of Hide and Move Silently. I came off as a bit strong and denounced investment in these skills to be a waste of points as the game progressed, but I'm looking to revise my opinion.Like many other things in D&D, dappling isn't very effective. If you're ready to put some effort into it, it becomes a valid tactic.

Basic set is getting HiPS (preferably the better version) and the aforementioned Darkstalker, as well as a way to contribute to the fight while hiding (if you wish to use it in combat). Boosting skills isn't a biggie, enhancement bonuses are rather cheap, MW items cost next to nothing, and there are even alchemical bonuses available (which can't be said for most skills).


A charger build I once toyed with used Pounce and Travel Devotion to full attack and hide again each round. 'twas just a mental exercise though, and would no doubt have been rather boring one-trick pony in actual play.

Xiander
2010-11-29, 11:09 AM
Ignoring the player versus player question, it seems to me that a noncaster charecter will have to either invest in these skills pretty heavily or dump them and be spotted.
The fact that certain monsters negate the skills do not make them unusable, it does however raise the question: Why not wear a bigger armour and be ready for the attack instead.

However, the good game(TM) contains situations where any skill a player might reasonably be expected to have will come in handy, so if you are playing in such a game invest away.

Akal Saris
2010-11-29, 11:45 AM
I think it really varies by game. In the one high level 3.5 game that I'm playing in right now, there is no incentive for my scout/ranger to have high ranks in hide and move silently, even though rangers have stealth-related class features like Hide in Plain Sight! First, we have a druid who can turn into a bird or lizard and scout, and second, we have a wizard who can go ethereal or cast invisibility, and both have done so in the past. Both are more reliable scouts than if I had poured 32 ranks into Hide/Move Silently by now, so why would I bother?

Even without those characters, there are rarely opportunities to use stealth effectively in the game, since much of the action is air ship-to-ship naval aerial warfare, or mass battles.

Obviously, this differs from game to game, but unless you have access to Hide in Plain Sight at a reasonable level and the Darkstalker feat, as well as the Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) and some Hide/MS skills boosters, there seems to be little reason to invest heavily in the skills. Of course, all 3 of the above are obtainable fairly easily by mid-levels, so it's more a question of source access than serious difficulty.

Heliomance
2010-11-29, 12:07 PM
Stealthy shadow in the woods is a valid character archetype. The people who put ranks into hide and MS are the people that like playing sneaky skillmonkeys who can hide by being Just That Good.

Incanur
2010-11-29, 12:19 PM
In my experience as a DM, it's hard to make monsters and NPCs that can spot a PC who focuses on stealth. The bonuses on hide in particular can get ridiculous. Equally importantly, even mediocre stealth ability can be valuable if the whole party has it. This opens up additional options in many situations unless the DM relentless optimizes spotters or never bothers with missions rewarding subtlety.

big teej
2010-11-29, 12:34 PM
I'd made a comment in another thread about my perception of Hide and Move Silently. I came off as a bit strong and denounced investment in these skills to be a waste of points as the game progressed, but I'm looking to revise my opinion.

And I'm doing it in a nice new thread, so as not to continue to derail the original thread (which seems to say that "casters do not unbalance the game as long as you concentrate on roleplay, ignore mechanics, and run multiple characters at the same time").

Anyways, here's my position.

Opening a Monster Manual, or simply going to the SRD, an interesting trend can be observed. If a creature has Skill Points, it's given ranks in Listen and or Spot almost invariably.

If a creature has Feats, somewhere along the line, it is almost invariably given Alertness.

Further, there are a variety of monster abilities that counteract Hide and Move Silently. Each one has limitations, but within their "zone of influence", they allow for detection without making a Spot or Listen check at all.

Darkvision appears to negate concealment based on darkness (it's never outright stated that it does, to my knowledge, but being able to 'see in darkness' sort of implies it), which is handed out like candy.

Scent is also quite common, and, again, within it's range, it detects without making any die roll or check (the only mechanics are for tracking by scent).

And I won't even discuss more powerful abilities, such as Tremorsense and Blindsight.

So it does appear that, from the beginning of the game, being able to sneak around is something of an arms race. Players must invest heavily to make these skills effective...and not just in the skills themselves!

Magic items to boost skill checks or bypass abilities like darkvision, taking PrC's or simply taking a normal class to high levels to acquire Hide in Plain Sight, and so on.

The argument was presented that True Seeing doesn't work versus ordinary Hide, thus possibly making 'mundane' stealth a potential way to overcome casters, but I feel that becomes a slippery slope, as magical means to foil stealth do exist, and I hate the whole "Shrodinger's Wizard" argument.

So I'm asking the forum in general; in your experience, is investment in Hide and Move Silently worthwhile at all stages of the game, even though the deck seems to be stacked against the player investing in said abilities?

(Please refrain from discussing Epic uses of these Skills if possible; I'm aware that you can do amazing things with Epic Skill Checks, but these aren't available in most games).

I can only speak to low level play (highest level a group of mine has ever gotten was to 5, and nobody in the party was playing a sneaky character)

but last night our halfling rogue consistently did EXTREMELY helpful sneaky stuff (thanks to a total of +11 - +13 on hide/move silently at level 2) which helped us out alot.

specifics
allowed the thief to get around 'after hours', allowing him to obtain critical information to confirming the party's suspicions.

allowed the thief to "hide behind the knight's bravado" and sneak up on the main villian of the adventure, saving the hostage

allowed him (and our gnome alchemist) to jump a thief in another adventure

thats all I can call to mind at the moment, but I'm sure theres more (or will be more at least, we're only on session 2 of that campaign)

Curmudgeon
2010-11-29, 12:41 PM
Darkvision appears to negate concealment based on darkness (it's never outright stated that it does, to my knowledge, but being able to 'see in darkness' sort of implies it), which is handed out like candy.
You sure about that?
Ignoring Concealment

Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision.
This is why Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight is so useful, since you're not dependent on concealment at all ─ just magic as an enabler for your skill check.

tenshiakodo
2010-11-29, 01:41 PM
Well that's good to know, at least. I thought it pretty much had to work that way, but the description of Darkvision itself never comes out and says so, and I've heard people argue about it.

It does, however, beg the question of exactly how True Seeing "sees through normal and magical darkness" and yet, "does not negate concealment".

It does look like people have had some varying degrees of experience when it comes to Hide and Move Silently. It's to be expected, no two games are the same, after all.

So far, however, the general impression I'm getting is "Stealth is good, if properly optimized". However, the fact that unless you do optimize it, magic can make it obsolete (and sometimes, even then) brings it into line with a lot of other things in the system.

EDIT: Of course, sadly, not all forms of Hide in Plain Sight are Supernatural. The Ranger's version, for example.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-29, 01:45 PM
Of course, sadly, not all forms of Hide in Plain Sight are Supernatural. The Ranger's version, for example.
The Ranger makes up for it with a separate ability (in natural terrain only, though):
Camouflage (Ex)

A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Greenish
2010-11-29, 05:43 PM
So far, however, the general impression I'm getting is "Stealth is good, if properly optimized". However, the fact that unless you do optimize it, magic can make it obsolete (and sometimes, even then) brings it into line with a lot of other things in the system.Magic can make most everything obsolete, so that's hardly an argument against stealth.

The Ranger makes up for it with a separate ability (in natural terrain only, though):And Urban Ranger can trade that one out. Yay for trap options?

Gamer Girl
2010-11-29, 11:25 PM
So I'm asking the forum in general; in your experience, is investment in Hide and Move Silently worthwhile at all stages of the game, even though the deck seems to be stacked against the player investing in said abilities?


I've never found Hide or Move Silently to be useless. You can hide from anything.

Sure some monsters are hard to hide from, but not impossible.

And scent over comes both...but that is real. You know that real animals(even humans) can smell things even from quite far away. You can smell a campfire well before you can see it, for example.


An often overlooked part of 'sneaking around', and one used a lot by my players, is the distraction. Stealth does not need to be 'super ninja'. If you get them to look elsewhere or such, you can sneak by them.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-11-30, 12:40 AM
Actually, even scent can be overcome. I've seen, at the very least, an alchemical item that masks the characters scent, and another that disables the opposing creatures scent ability. I think one or the other was in Dungeonscape.

Killer Angel
2010-11-30, 04:19 AM
So it does appear that, from the beginning of the game, being able to sneak around is something of an arms race. Players must invest heavily to make these skills effective...and not just in the skills themselves!


It depends on your definition of "heavy" investment.
A rogue has tons of skill points, and can afford to spend some of'em in hide and move silently, without losing significant resources to pump at max ranks things like UMD, spot, listen, bluff, Sense motive, disable device and having at good level gather info and search.
Dex will be a good bonus by itself, and enhancement +5 on armor are cheap, even at mid level.
Not all the monsters will have scent or blindsight, and those abilities have range (and if your PC is a ranger, you'll know the safety range).
Darkvision has a range, too, and anyway, if you're moving in a natural dungeon, you'll have plenty of rocks and other things to gain cover, not only concealement for darkness.

As said, the scouting can be a moot option, when you're around with a druid... but in that case, you can go with the druid, and remain unnoticed.

Mundane hiding is not a perfect tool, but it can be handy and, in my opinion, it doesn't requires a so heavy investment, to be at a good level.

In our games, mundane hiding is sufficiently good, both for the PCs and for the bad guys. If someone can hide, the enemy (usually) must spend resources to find him.