OOTS #762 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Teatime]

{scrubbed}
Awesome comic!

I was expecting Tarquin to turn out to be a dashing swordsman as well. Guess he's just prepared for really obscure prestige classes.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

No, Elan! Don't fall for it!

[Burner28]

Again, Tarquin is showing his moral relativism. Doesn't mean he's an antivillain though

"Limted and unrealistic alignment system", eh Tarquin?

[AstralFire]

I'm liking Tarquin more and more, especially if this doesn't turn out to be a ploy. He's... not just affably evil, he's more than genre-savvy, he's genre-inured.

[hamishspence]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin is being honest in this case.

Though the issue of Roy and Belkar may still be a source of tension when Elan finds out.

[RayGallade]

Really like Tarquin's style of character. Definitely a fresh take on evil.

And it's nice to see that he still cares for Elan.

Also, yay~ I was correct in assuming he wasn't a Dashing Swordsman~

[Zerg Cookie]

Kinda weak compared to recent updates, yet still awesome compared to, I don't know, the world.

[CodeRed]

Tarquin is bloody brilliant. I hate liking a clearly evil dude this much but he is such a badass.

As to the writing, Rich continues to knock it out of the park. I've been with this comic since the Dungeon of Dorukan and I am more than happy to admit that its kept me on my toes since the beginning. The writing has only gotten better and better as time goes on. This arc in the Empire of Blood has been my favorite so far but I'm betting I will feel the same about the next one.

[RndmNumGen]

I love how Tarquin is helping his son out of his own self-interest, once again proving you can be Evil without doing it for the Evulz.

[Aotrs Commander]

Excellent.

A man after my own (metaphorical) heart. I have to agree with Tarquin's logic. Just becaue you're evil doesn't mean you can't be civilised (sic) about it; nor does it mean - despite Team Evil jokes to the contrary - that all Evil is on the same side. Only the foolish make more enemies than they have to, and expend resources to doing something (e.g. stopping Xycon) that they could otherwise get some other patsy (e.g. the Order of the Stick) to do for them...

[Dunamin]

Just when I thought he couldn't impress me anymore, Tarquin exceeds my expectations - again! :smallsmile:

[Halae]

This is very good. I like Tarquin, especially after that "It was bracing!" line. I'm going to have to pull that in one of my own games.

And the point of it being beneficial to him as well that Xykon is stopped is priceless. it's the big reason why I like having evil rulers in my campaigns, as I've used it before. Perhaps not so affably, but still

[Morph Bark]

They really are going faster than before, these updates. Oh my!

[bue52]

Rich you have truly made some interesting evil characters, we have everything from Xykon to Tarquin to Nale. I pity your awesome brain who'd to work so long to come up with so many characters, I appreciate the work done, its truly a masterpiece. Can't wait to see what Elan will learn from Tarquin. I also wonder what nature of conflict will occur when Roy comes back into the picture. Or how Draketooth will handle the offspring of the dictator of the lands come and tell him that his gate is threatened. And Elan is probably going to have to grow to either accept his father or appreciate his love but reject his methods all the same, either way, its development for him.

On a side note, when will we have another Durkon arc, its been too long for him not to at least have one page focused on his character :smallfrown:

Lastly, I bet 5 chocolate chip cookies that within the next 2 days will get a new alignment thread regarding Tarquin alignment again.

[Caliphbubba]

Tarquin is my kind of villian. I want him to tell Elan his alignment is "Aberrant" instead of Evil a la Palladium, cause I think that fits better in his case.

[hamishspence]

Just becaue you're evil doesn't mean you can't be civilised (sic) about it; nor does it mean - despite Team Evil jokes to the contrary - that all Evil is on the same side.

The IFCC point this out to Qaar here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

[Mordae]

Well, that's a twist off the old block... :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

I bet that a few strips down the line, a ring of Regeneration will come in handy, but Elan didn't take it and so everyone dies.

[Kane]

Wow. Comic just up, I guess that kind of makes up for being woken up an hour early.

Tarquin is busy being hilariously evil and affable, (and intelligent!) Elan isn't quite as dim witted as he used to be, but still the Elan we know and love (or in Roy's case, tolerate,) and the comics are suddenly coming really quickly.

Seriously, though, 'defend yourself' from obscure prestige classes? A pun-duel? Tarquin is... I guess he's putting his advanced age category and wisdom modifier to good use.

[TheBlackShadow]

As I have said before many times, my respect for Tarquin grows by the strip.

[Burner28]

Tarquin is my kind of villian. I want him to tell Elan his alignment is "Aberrant" instead of Evil a la Palladium, cause I think that fits better in his case.

Huh? What do you mean by that, he is clearly Evil!

[hamishspence]

I bet that a few strips down the line, a ring of Regeneration will come in handy, but Elan didn't take it and so everyone dies.

Unlikely- but I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Belkar's death is done in such a way as only quickly giving him the Ring would have saved him.

[Morph Bark]

I bet that a few strips down the line, a ring of Regeneration will come in handy, but Elan didn't take it and so everyone dies.

Who do you consider a part of "everyone"? :smallwink:

[Asthix]

"Bracing."

That got a good laugh outta me. Thanks Giant!

[Lorin]

More! More Tarquin! He is hilarious!

Hm. At this point i wonder: wil we see epic fight between army of goblins and army of blood?

[hamishspence]

Huh? What do you mean by that, he is clearly Evil!

Easydamus puts Aberrant as a variant of Lawful Evil:

http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html


Here are some possible adjectives describing lawful evil characters: cruel, vengeful, proud, callous, hostile, taciturn, malevolent, calculating, plotting, merciless, domineering, severe, tyrannical, commanding, organized, and respectful of authority and power.

Well known lawful evil characters from film or literature include: Darth Vader (Star Wars), Magneto (Marvel Comics), Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter), and the Borg (Star Trek, the Next Generation).

Equivalent alignment in other game systems: Aberrant (Palladium), Road of Blood (Vampire), Dark Side (Star Wars), Evil (Warhammer).

[The-Mage-King]

{scrubbed}

Very interesting...

[lord pringle]

am I the only one who thought some sort of blue mage? I see you're punning so I'll pun back better.

[TheBlackShadow]

Lastly, I bet 5 chocolate chip cookies that within the next 2 days will get a new alignment thread regarding Tarquin alignment again.

No bet. We'll probably get one within the next ten minutes or so, never mind the next two days.

[AstralFire]

I hope this puts to rest 'Tarquin is a dashing swordsman!' for good.

[Killer Angel]

And Tarquin still is one of my favourite evil guys ever. (obviously, if I can classify Tarquin in the alignment table... :smalltongue:)

[zadcap]

On the other side, this is good reason for him to want to release Roy and Belkar. He said so himself, if they are heroes on a mission of such magnitude, it is in his best interest to let them go, if not outright help them.

[The Glyphstone]

I hope this puts to rest 'Tarquin is a dashing swordsman!' for good.

Hope in vain - it'll just change the opinions to 'he learned how to defend himself against puns by dipping 1 level in DS'.:smalltongue:

[Burner28]

Lastly, I bet 5 chocolate chip cookies that within the next 2 days will get a new alignment thread regarding Tarquin alignment again.

I kinda doubt after everything Tarquin has done there is any way anyone can argue that he is not Evil without disregarding logic

[tcrudisi]

I bet that a few strips down the line, a ring of Regeneration will come in handy, but Elan didn't take it and so everyone Belkar dies.

My first thought when reading what Flickerdart wrote.


Unlikely- but I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Belkar's death is done in such a way as only quickly giving him the Ring would have saved him.

And then I saw that someone already beat me to the punch. You're fast, HamishSpence.

As someone else has said: Giant, your writing is getting better and better. Please, write a fantasy novel/trilogy... after you finish with this, of course.

[Hardcore]

I look forwards to Rich's commentary about Tarquin in the forthcoming book.

[AstralFire]

Hope in vain - it'll just change the opinions to 'he learned how to defend himself against puns by dipping 1 level in DS'.:smalltongue:


I kinda doubt after everything Tarquin has done there is any way anyone can argue that he is not Evil without disregarding logic

Alas, logic is but a speedbump on the information superhighway.

[Burner28]

Alas, logic is but a speedbump on the information superhighway.

Okay... :smallconfused: what do you mean by that exactly? it's not as if anyone will say that Tarquin is lawful neutral

[St Fan]

Again a very lol-worthy strip. Especially Elan pleading for not aiming at the most "hurty" organs.

Incidentally, Tarquin wearing a Ring of Regeneration explains how he healed so fast the chin scar Amun-Zora gave him.


Unlikely- but I wouldn't be surprised if, say, Belkar's death is done in such a way as only quickly giving him the Ring would have saved him.

I don't know if it's still the case with 3.5 E, but in my time the rule for a Ring of Regeneration was that it could only heal the wounds inflicted while wearing the ring. This, to avoid that the same ring could be used in turn by everybody in the party.

[Caustic Soda]

I kinda doubt after everything Tarquin has done there is any way anyone can argue that he is not Evil without disregarding logic

That probably won't be a barrier to an alignment thread. I've seen all kinds of untenable positions advanced in those through the years I've lurked here. Besides, logic depends on your prepositions. Those tend to vary rather widely from person to person.

[SmaugTheYounger]

Mind wobbeling anticlimax. Logical, brilliant, yet really unexpected. Will leave Elan with something to think about.

Still, there's this issue with Roy, Belkar and Haleys Dad...

[AstralFire]

Okay... :smallconfused: what do you mean by that exactly? it's not as if anyone will say that Tarquin is lawful neutral

Hold on to that thought. It will be your liferaft in the cybersea.

[Burner28]

That probably won't be a barrier to an alignment thread. I've seen all kinds of untenable positions advanced in those through the years I've lurked here. Besides, logic depends on your prepositions. Those tend to vary rather widely from person to person.

Yes but what tarquin does is clearly lawful and evil by Dnd definition

[hamishspence]

I don't know if it's still the case with 3.5 E, but in my time the rule for a ring of regeneration was that it could only heal the wounds inflicted while wearing the ring. This, too avoid that the same ring could be used in turn by everybody in the party.

It still is:


Ring of Regeneration:
This white gold ring continually allows a living wearer to heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes. If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell. In either case, only damage taken while wearing the ring is regenerated.

[Vectner]

Tarquin is evil but not mean. He seems aweful quick to forgive as well, and that's surprising.

I love the coloring on the panels btw, it's a very sceenic pallet.

[Burner28]

Tarquin is evil but not mean. He seems aweful quick to forgive as well, and that's surprising.

Well it is his own son

[Shale]

I love that Tarquin was able to extrapolate Xykon's existence from Elan's lack of free time.

[B. Dandelion]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

[hamishspence]

Yes but what tarquin does is clearly lawful and evil by Dnd definition

When it comes to alignment threads, different people can weight things very differently- acts, intentions, "general attitude", and have different views as to what's a valid source.

PHB, DMG (core)

or various splatbooks (BoVD, Champions of Ruin, BoED, Heroes of Horror, FC2, Exemplars of Evil).

[Burner28]

When it comes to alignment threads, different people can weight things very differently- acts, intentions, "general attitude", and have different views as to what's a valid source.

PHB, DMG (core)

or various splatbooks (BoVD, Champions of Ruin, BoED, Heroes of Horror, FC2, Exemplars of Evil).

That might be the case but where does it say you can go around enslaving, killing and torture people and still be Neutral?

[Particle_Man]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

I would see it as a matter of prioritizing. First save the world from the Snarl or Xykon or both, then worry about the kingdoms under Tarquin's rule.

And I am wondering if Tarquin is that int-based class that can temporarily and instantly duplicate other class features that Rick wrote but which I won't mention since I don't want to summon the Wotc lawyers, but let's just say I look forward to Roy's "'scape" from his sorta "dungeon". :)

[Stabbey]

This was a brilliant turn of events I didn't see coming. Really awesome and clever. You have to respect Tarquin, maybe even admire him.

[hamishspence]

That might be the case but where does it say you can go around enslaving, killing and torture people and still be Neutral?

Heroes of Horror, if you stretch the description of "flexible Neutral antihero" very far, might qualify.

It says if a character does evil deeds, but, with Good intentions, and toward a Good end, they might be able to stay Neutral.

In Exemplars of Evil, in the description of the "sympathetic villain" the character's alignment is described as Lawful Neutral. However, this may be their alignment before they started on their murder spree- they are killing everyone who participated in the destruction of their village, but, they are willing to kill innocent people who have witnessed them.

In another example in the same book "Symbolic Villain" the character is a CN warlord whose son died because he got involved with "dangerous knowledge". This character seeks to destroy all dangerous knowledge- and this includes book-burning, and lynching innocent scholars.

As for enslaving- the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting kingdom Mulhorand practices slavery, and has powerful paladin orders. The ruler is a paladin. It's modelled on ancient Egypt.

[AstralFire]

I would see it as a matter of prioritizing. First save the world from the Snarl or Xykon or both, then worry about the kingdoms under Tarquin's rule.

And I am wondering if Tarquin is that int-based class that can temporarily and instantly duplicate other class features that Rick wrote but which I won't mention since I don't want to summon the Wotc lawyers, but let's just say I look forward to Roy's "'scape" from his sorta "dungeon". :)

...We can say 'factotum' fine. We're not making money off of it.

[St Fan]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

What about not trying to topple him because he got three frigging empires under his boot and a whole army at his command, not to mention a red dragon ally, the death squad and who know how many other high-level retainers? The Order of the Stick might be composed of heroes, but there's a difference between being heroic and plain and simply suicidal.

[Halae]

...We can say 'factotum' fine. We're not making money off of it.

I think he was trying to be subtle somehow

[MarkusWolfe]

Elan! Dude! Take the ring!

Sure, your father tortured some guy for it, and that's evil. BUT that's in the past and it can't be changed. You now have 2 options:

A) Take the ring, take some pressure off Durkon, increase your own chances of not dying.

B) Refuse the ring, somebody got tortured for nothing.

Lesser Evil, man, LESSER EVIL.

The thing that I don't get is that, if they're not hurting anyone or impinging on the freedom of others by doing so, Chaotic Good characters are just as greedy as Chaotic Neutral characters (see: Haley).

If I was in Elans position, I'd get everything I could from Tarquin, save the world, then come back and overthrow him.....exactly as Tarquin planned!

[Indalecio]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

What would you have them do? Depose him, and just leave a power vacuum? Setting up a new government takes quite a bit of time. Time which the Order just doesn't have.

[Burner28]

The thing that I don't get is that, if they're not hurting anyone or impinging on the freedom of others by doing so, Chaotic Good characters are just as greedy as Chaotic Neutral characters (see: Haley).

!

Dude all alignments can be greedy, and i don't think this is just because of some alignment thing but rather because this is Elan, not Haley who despite being Chaotic Good are very different characters

[Rosiel]

Really like Tarquin's style of character. Definitely a fresh take on evil.

Actually Tarquin is the definition of LE. Bending the Rules to his needs ftw.

My first post btw. :P hi all :)

[MarkusWolfe]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

As a guy playing a CG guy, even I'd let him be for the moment. It would take much planning to overthrow him in a manner which results in a net good being achieved, and Xykon is a much larger fish to fry.

[JonestheSpy]

Ha! Thought so all along - it makes sense for Tarquin to want Xykon to be thwarted.

Now, on to the gladiator matches! That'll be another fun moment for Elan...though maybe he'll just boycott them now that he knows how evil the Empire really is, and miss out on seeing Roy and Belkar fighting while almost invisible...

[Lupusater]

What about not trying to topple him because he got three frigging empires under his boot and a whole army at his command, not to mention a red dragon ally, the death squad and who know how many other high-level retainers? The Order of the Stick might be composed of heroes, but there's a difference between being heroic and plain and simply suicidal.

And Tarquin himself looks like a frighteningly powerful foe in combat, if the nonchalance with which he treats a duel to the death with a high level PC is any indication(I know it's Elan, but he trounced him in his own fighting style, a style that Tarquin hadn't seen for a long time).

[hamishspence]

Dude all alignments can be greedy, and i don't think this is just because of some alignment thing but rather because this is Elan, not Haley who despite being Chaotic Good are very different characters

Yup- in PHB, the example given for "few characters are completely consistant",

is for a LG dwarf who is "A little greedy, and may be tempted to steal if they can justify it to themselves".

[Saph]

Another great strip. Loving the fast updates, too!

[B. Dandelion]

It would be so great if people would just read what I said instead of getting huffy over words they put in my mouth themselves: I will lose all respect for the order if they leave him in power just because he's "capable of love". I said absolutely-friggin-nothing about leaving him in power for any other reason.

[grimbold]

this made me laugh out loud
"who do you count as somebody?"
totally my style of humor :)

[Felhammer]

By laws of drama Elan's lack of that ring is going to hurt him.

Ring of Regeneration: This white gold ring continually allows a living wearer to heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes. If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell. In either case, only damage taken while wearing the ring is regenerated.

So... Elan is going to loose a limb. :smalleek:

[Sotharsyl]

Well I certanetly didn't expect this.

[Shale]

So what if he does? Regenerate has no material component and Durkon can cast it at least twice a day.

[Felhammer]

So what if he does? Regenerate has no material component and Durkon can cast it at least twice a day.

Yeah but he'll probably loose it in a very heroic way during an event where Durkon did not have the spell prepared and the loss of the limb will be most crippling (like say during a fight with an important BBEG...). :smalleek:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Okay... :smallconfused: what do you mean by that exactly? it's not as if anyone will say that Tarquin is lawful neutral

You must be new here. People were arguing Belkar's alignment long after he said himself that he was Chaotic Evil, long after Rich said he was Chaotic Evil, long after any proof to the contrary was ridiculous. Don't underestimate people's abilities to question an obviously Evil character's alignment.

[MarkusWolfe]

Dude all alignments can be greedy, and i don't think this is just because of some alignment thing but rather because this is Elan, not Haley who despite being Chaotic Good are very different characters

Do you know how Chaotic Good deals with tyrants?

He storms the castle (either by himself, with his party, or with an army of rebels he/the party bard has managed to inspire), kills the guards who get in his way and bursts into the throne room. He then murders the tyrant and his EEEEEVIL council.

At this point, he will either:

A) Declare himself King, and promote FREEDOM and LIBERTY.

B) Hand the reins of the kingdom over to a known force of good.

C) Encourage the people to come up with their own government

Now, if he opts for B or C, he's still going to loot the castle and everything in it as reward for himself for a good day of work. Seriously, he's going to take everything that's not nailed down. Then he will get a crowbar and take everything that is nailed down. If it's too heavy for him to lift, he'll just sell it to an ogre or a giant. If he can find the deed to the castle, he will sell it. If he can't, he will try to sell it anyways. If he can't sell it, he will live in it/make it a headquarters for the team.

At least, that's how I play Chaotic Good. That's probably why I'm a Barbarian....

Also, I think http://easydamus.com/alignment.html says that Chaotic alignments are about oneself.

[Halae]

Do you know how Chaotic Good deals with tyrants?

He storms the castle (either by himself, with his party, or with an army of rebels he/the party bard has managed to inspire), kills the guards who get in his way and bursts into the throne room. He then murders the tyrant and his EEEEEVIL council.

At this point, he will either:

A) Declare himself King, and promote FREEDOM and LIBERTY.

B) Hand the reins of the kingdom over to a known force of good.

C) Encourage the people to come up with their own government

Now, if he opts for B or C, he's still going to loot the castle and everything in it as reward for himself for a good day of work. Seriously, he's going to take everything that's not nailed down. Then he will get a crowbar and take everything that is nailed down. If it's too heavy for him to lift, he'll just sell it to an ogre or a giant. If he can find the deed to the castle, he will sell it. If he can't, he will try to sell it anyways. If he can't sell it, he will live in it/make it a headquarters for the team.

At least, that's how I play Chaotic Good. That's probably why I'm a Barbarian....

Also, I think http://easydamus.com/alignment.html says that Chaotic alignments are about oneself.

yup.... definitely a barbarian

[The Pilgrim]

Tarquin once again proves us that there is more about being "good" and "evil" than just fighting people of the opposite alignment.

Anyway, Belkar and Roy are still there to ensure this isn't gonna end as peacefully as Tarquin wishes.

[Warren Dew]

Funniest strip in a while. I like how Rich keeps it clear that Tarquin is evil while making him likeable at the same time. Kind of the exact opposite of Miko.

[JadeTarisu]

So, so awesome!! Tarquin just became my favorite character. For now, anyways. Man, I bet Rich is having a fine laugh at us now for making all those Star Wars assumptions. LoL! :smallamused:

[warmachine]

The trouble is Elan is already a violent, travelling hobo who kills sentient beings and takes their stuff.

Oh alright, that's not fair. Mostly goblins defending an evil liche, invading hobgoblins and raiding sea trolls.

[Grelna the Blue]

Even if I were to place myself within your limited and unrealistic "alignment system," why would that be a reason to harm you?

You are my sole remaining son! I do love you. And I would gain nothing by your demise.

"Of course, if I saw some sort of gain in it..."

As a GM, I've had a fair amount of success making villains the heroes actually liked on a personal basis, even when they knew they'd probably eventually have to throw down with them. But Tarquin is classic. I've never even tried to make someone that over-the-top-evil (e.g., making escaped slaves into disposable holiday decorations) seem a likeable character and now I sorta want to give it a try.

[Grommen]

Personally I would take organized evil over chaotic neutral empires. With the LE you can tell where you stand. As long as you walk the line your ok. Yes you have to topple it eventually cause it's evil and all that. But the people are happy. The economie is stable, and the pesents are fed. Their slaves yes, but right now this corner of the world is stable. It can wait to be smoked.

Tarquin, other than the fact that he is undenyably evil, and brutal to his foes. He is a lesser evil. He gets to live for now. Coarse trying to explain that to the rest of the stick. That could get sticky.

Side note: Tarquin thinks that Nale is dead. So his information gathering skills are limited.

[Crisis21]

I was wondering about the line where Tarquin claims Elan as his only remaining son, then I remembered that Elan thought Nale perished in the exploding castle back in Azure city and told Malack as much.

So, obviously Tarquin has heard this version of events, has high enough ranks in relevant skills to be able to tell that Elan isn't lying (that Elan is ignorant of the truth is another issue), and has no reason to believe that Nale is alive.

[the_tick_rules]

Oh just take the ring. What magical item hasn't been killed over a couple times?

[KeiranHalcyon]

Side note: Tarquin thinks that Nale is dead. So his information gathering skills are limited.

Good catch, I'd missed that.

What I found interesting was that it seems that Tarquin has (and always had) every intention of telling the party what he knows about Girard. It fits with what we now know of his motives - he only wants to delay the party a little while so he can have some time with his son and set up his real plan for him later - but I expect it will take some doing to convince the rest of the Order (especially Haley) of that. (Of course, he could merely have adapted tactics once he realized the gravity of the Order's quest, and decided it would be best to let his son go and defeat the BBEG so that he wouldn't have to do it himself later...)

[DaveMcW]

So... Elan is going to loose a limb. :smalleek:

Many people were predicting Elan would lose a limb during the duel, but Tarquin managed to disarm his son without cutting off his hand.

Tarquin > Vader

[Half-Orc Rage]

I like that he's evil but truly loves his son. Elan should have taken the ring though.

I don't think the Order of the Stick should mess with Tarquin, because Xykon is the bigger fish. Also, Tarquin, the red dragon, and the chancellor would not be an easy fight.

[One Skunk Todd]

So if you have to wriggle your body around during a pun-duel, is that pun-duel-ation?

[Orzel]

Love the strip.

I knew Tarquin would spare his son and why he'd do it.

Reminds me of the time my CG rogue didn't kill an LE wizard in his sleep because we needed him and his friends to kill a bigger threat.

[the Riddler]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png <- this man. Is. Awesome.

[Blaznak]

Sigh: Kids never understand their folks... :)

Very good strip, once again!

~Later~

[Eloel]

Last panel is epic.
"Wait who do you consider a "somebody"?"
Heh.

[Inferno232]

I like that he's a father first, member of a sketchy group that rules a continent second. Guy has his priorities in order. After all, children ARE the future.

Also, can I just throw out what struck me as the coolest thing here? He not only defended against a class that he hasn't encountered in who-knows-how-long, but he did so with a DAGGER. He won in a sword fight against someone who was wielding a RAPIER, a sword that is made for sword fighting, with what looked like a fancy letter opener. Guy is skilled. If I was the Order, I'd leave him to his continent. As long as he doesn't go for world domination, well, no tyrant can live for ever, right?

... Well, other than our favorite lich, that is...

[Scutilla]

Loving the deconstruction of the alignment system.


I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.
They probably will leave him be, but more on the grounds that "they have bigger fish to fry", and they finally have a good lead on their quest.


Elan! Dude! Take the ring!

Sure, your father tortured some guy for it, and that's evil. BUT that's in the past and it can't be changed.
Agreed. Whether immoral things were done while making it before Elan came along is completely irrelevant. It's not like Tarquin is going to have to go torture somebody to replace the ring he just gave away, he specifically said it was a spare.

[Banni]

"sole remaining son" combined with "who do you consider somebody" sounds like Nale's found a newer, shinier form.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Tarquin: Lawful Evil, not Stupid Evil. Sure he may brutally opress you and painfully and publicly execute people, but he won't shoot himself in the foot just because somebody picked a fight with him.

[Querzis]

"sole remaining son" combined with "who do you consider somebody" sounds like Nale's found a newer, shinier form.

...hum no. He just think Nale is dead cause Elan told him he was.

Anyway, loving Tarquin even more now. You know, guys like Tarquin, Nale, the Joker, Rance, Eggman, Buggy, Wario, The Mayor (he only wanted to be a big snake) or Ner'zhul all gives me big moral problems because they are all evil peoples I always end up rooting for.

[Shale]

Regarding the ring, it might not be the best idea for Elan to take it with him, and not just for moral reasons. Remember, in this setting objects that are strongly aligned with one alignment or another can "broadcast" it to their wearers, and a magic ring created through the murder of an innocent could easily create some more Roy-registers-Evil-to-paladins hijinks that the Order is not remotely interested in.

[Scarlet Knight]

"...less hurty organs." Loved it !

[dps]

Great update--plot advancement [i]andi/i] a good punchline.

[fractal]

Now I want to know if Tarquin's party could take down Xykon. I'm sure they're individually weaker than he is, but they seem to be more powerful than the Order of the Stick (plus, they're spread out in groups of two, so they almost have to be higher level to pose an interesting challenge to the OotS).

Of course, they would never abandon their empires to take action until it was way too late, so it doesn't really matter.

[Corporal Flint]

Is it bad that, more and more with each strip, I'm starting to consider Tarquin my favorite character? :smalleek:

[Tundar]

This just keeps getting better and better.

I'd don't like Tarquin, but he's quite a charachter. And he's onest about being who he is, gotta give him credit fot that.

[Niveus Candidus]

Okay, Tarquin is clearly twinked to the gills. In fact, he might be the most powerful type of NPC possible: One sans stats. As a power-gaming, cheese-weasel, I respect that. He just trounced a melee character using his own attack methods without batting an eye. I suspect he'd slash Miko to pieces as well, ker-powed Roy and flipped over Belkar, all with his eyes closed. We haven't seen any magical aptitude, but at this point if he started chaining a group of interchangeable children to his belt I would not bat an eye.

On the note of magic items, extra rings of regeneration laying around is a terrifying thought. Who knows what this guy is decked out with. It would make me giddy with evil, if such an alignment system could truly represent my glee. I wonder if it is the SRD ring, useful in its own right, or the completely stupid version from the Cadderly books.

I do so hope its the latter.

[Turalisj]

Just when we've got it figured out... He pulls us back in. :smallamused:

[Azukar]

D'you think he'd let Ian go if Elan just asks him?

I'm hedging my bets on either "yes", or "he would have, but Elan asks the question in a way that tips Tarquin off to something so he says no instead".

And I'll add myself to the "this story arc is awesome" alignment.

[Dvandemon]

If I were Elan I'd just shut up and deal with the moral problems later

[Turalisj]

D'you think he'd let Ian go if Elan just asks him?

I'm hedging my bets on either "yes", or "he would have, but Elan asks the question in a way that tips Tarquin off to something so he says no instead".

And I'll add myself to the "this story arc is awesome" alignment.

He's offering to give Elan a major magical item and, at this point, seems to have laid all his cards on the table.

But he might still have an ace up his sleeve... and a joker in his pocket... and another ace in his left shoe.... And a third ace in his right shoe.

[krossbow]

You know, it always seems to end up going this way in plots; the Lawful evil individuals will inevitably team up with the good guys to put down the chaotic evil ones.

[KillItWithFire]

I must admit I have a newfound respect for Tarquin now. Here is one who does not feel that he is constricted by this black and white alignment system. Although I must admit I'm kind of hoping that Elan does not look a gift horse in the mouth and just accepts the help his father is willing to offer, without further confrontation. Elan has to remember that he is a guest in his fathers kingdom.

[AstralFire]

Elan's family, which will likely include Hayley at some point, is now decidedly better than anyone else's.

[Nilan8888]

Very nice comic. Very nice indeed.

A few observations:

1) I think that Tarquin is, to some degree, being on the level here. I think he does have some immediate plans involving Elan in his schemes within the continent, but that in terms of where things stand with Xykon, that this is essentially the situation. Tarquin stands to lose as much as anyone if Xykon gains total control, and even Tarquin might demurr from resorting to the Snarl for world domination: Tarquin might see the Snarl as equivalent to a nuclear weapon, and recognize that for anyone to have control of it... even himself... might put the world to much at risk of annhilation.

An anti-nuclear evil warlord. Whod'a thunk?

So, while I think there is another shoe to drop in some respects, it's not a shoe with regards to Xykon and the Gates.

2) I think Tarquin also has to figure at this point that while he's impatient with Elan's adhering to the alignment system, it's to be expected even in his view: most of this world doesn't look on the system like Tarquin... certainly not Elan's mother... and it's not like he could expect any encounter with Nale to have gone in a similar direction to this one.

As to that, he'd probably have to expect that Elan's friends will have a similar reaction (although V may prove a pleasant surprise). They've very used to dealing with evil people in a certain manner, and so if Haley starts flipping out, Tarquin would probably see that coming. He's got to expect that thier first reaction is going to be one of non-cooperation and that presenting them with this sort of situation where he's hoping they go along with it has an effect on their afterlife, and so on.

3) That said, I think Roy, once he gets a chance to get back in the game, so to speak, will have to agree not to interfere with the EoB. This is too big a regime for them to antagonize right now.

4) Tarquin is very interesting on a relative scale. Compared to only Xykon or Nale... he's sort of a good guy since all three think nothing of torture and killing. Yet when you compare him to RedCloak, he's pretty much a bad guy again since RedCloak, IMO, holds his evil deeds to a higher standard of a 'greater good', and is willing to sacrifice his own well-being to see the goblinoid races prosper. For Tarquin to be galavanting around and having a good time even as he slaughters people for his self-professed 'better world' is something that RedCloak might find abominable... if you're going kill for a better world, he might say, you'd better be getting some dramatic catharsis out of it!

In the strictest sense they're all evil, especially compared to characters like Celia. But if you compare them to one another you get interesting contrasts.

[Sijo]

Fun read, but at a point it felt like an author filibuster against the D&D alignment system. We've those here before, of course, but they've never convinced me- evil characters only seem to not be evil when it is convenient to the plot, but can be downright sick otherwise. Let's not forget Tarquin burned alive people just to entertain his son and is torturing a woman just so he can marry her. So I call BS.

Can we get back to the story now? Roy must be getting impatient. :smallsigh:

[Ranylyn]

"I'll keep the ring, then."

What a trooper, doesn't force things his kids don't want upon them, bless his soul.

[JonestheSpy]

Okay, Tarquin is clearly twinked to the gills. In fact, he might be the most powerful type of NPC possible: One sans stats. As a power-gaming, cheese-weasel, I respect that. He just trounced a melee character using his own attack methods without batting an eye. I suspect he'd slash Miko to pieces as well, ker-powed Roy and flipped over Belkar, all with his eyes closed. We haven't seen any magical aptitude, but at this point if he started chaining a group of interchangeable children to his belt I would not bat an eye.



What the heck are you talking about? He's a high level fighter who won a melee battle against a bard with 2-3 levels max of a combat-oriented class.

[Shale]

Not only that, but he had a way to nullify the combat bonuses provided by that class, leaving Elan as a bard fighting a fighter.

[Turalisj]

Okay, Tarquin is clearly twinked to the gills. In fact, he might be the most powerful type of NPC possible: One sans stats. As a power-gaming, cheese-weasel, I respect that. He just trounced a melee character using his own attack methods without batting an eye. I suspect he'd slash Miko to pieces as well, ker-powed Roy and flipped over Belkar, all with his eyes closed. We haven't seen any magical aptitude, but at this point if he started chaining a group of interchangeable children to his belt I would not bat an eye.

On the note of magic items, extra rings of regeneration laying around is a terrifying thought. Who knows what this guy is decked out with. It would make me giddy with evil, if such an alignment system could truly represent my glee. I wonder if it is the SRD ring, useful in its own right, or the completely stupid version from the Cadderly books.

I do so hope its the latter.

Um... what?

First off, Elan isn't front line soldier material. He's support the troops guy. While he can do some combat (he took 2-3 levels of Dashing swordsman so he wouldn't be so helpless anymore), Roy, Durkon, or Belkar could wipe the floor with him easily. Tarquin, who likely has some level advantages to the OotS gang, had no problem trouncing him. This doesn't represent being 'twinked out the gills' anymore than sending your first level rogue to challenge the 5th level captain of the guard and losing does.

Secondly, the ring isn't "just lying around". Tarquin, as we've seen, is friends with (a) spellcaster(s). He has the ability to make requests for items. Not only that, Elan is his only heir (that he likes anyway, he seems to consider Nale better off dead). This is like the king giving his son the prince a family heirloom sword. The sword in this case happens to be a ring that can heal you.

[Querzis]

Fun read, but at a point it felt like an author filibuster against the D&D alignment system. We've those here before, of course, but they've never convinced me- evil characters only seem to not be evil when it is convenient to the plot, but can be downright sick otherwise. Let's not forget Tarquin burned alive people just to entertain his son and is torturing a woman just so he can marry her. So I call BS.

...This is either the greatest example of sarcasm in the world or the greatest example of completely missing the point. You think the author, as in Rich, think the alignement system and good and evil are outdated concept? Thats the idea you got from reading this comic? Really????

[Turalisj]

...This is either the greatest example of sarcasm in the world or the greatest example of completely missing the point. You think the author, as in Rich, think the alignement system and good and evil are outdated concept? Thats the idea you got from reading this comic? Really????

Say it with me.

Head. Meets. Desk.

[Sengoku]

Once again, the Giant shows his opinion regarding how moral alignment is viewed and (mis)used in D&D.

And I like it (not just for the nice strip).

[RedCloakLives!]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

Interesting. Well, there is hope, because very little survives contact with the OOTS.

Examples:

- OOTS visits some underground caverns. The caverns are destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

- OOTS visits some bandits. Their leader is deposed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) (And subsequently killed)

- OOTS visits an inn. Said inn is destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

- OOTS visits a city ruled by military despots. The city's fortress is destroyed, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) and their despotic rule falls to the Goblin Revolution.

- OOTS spends an extended period of time with a paladin. Paladin falls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

- OOTS visits some orcs. The orcs traditional gods are deposed, and replaced by a puppet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

Etc., etc. So, most likely, the Empire of BST is doomed. One way or another. A trail of destruction follows OOTS!:smallwink:

[Santiago]

Great comic! I really wish more players understood alignment like the Giant.

[Ted The Bug]

Ok, so I kinda love Tarquin.

[mneme]

Tarquin: Best evil overlord ever? Or Evilest best overlord? You decide!

[Floater]

...hum no. He just think Nale is dead cause Elan told him he was.

I don't think Tarquin can THINK something only because Elan told him...

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin is awesome.

This also may explain why Tarquin showed no damage during the flashback vs. Nale (I would expect at least a scratch).

[Firemeier]

Fun read, but at a point it felt like an author filibuster against the D&D alignment system. We've those here before, of course, but they've never convinced me- evil characters only seem to not be evil when it is convenient to the plot, but can be downright sick otherwise. Let's not forget Tarquin burned alive people just to entertain his son and is torturing a woman just so he can marry her. So I call BS.

Can we get back to the story now? Roy must be getting impatient. :smallsigh:

Have you ever considered getting an avatar of the cranky old guys from the muppet show? I mean, what exactly do you consider these last strips to be other than story? :smallsigh:

I swear we could have a strip that involves the ultimate battle between Roy and Xykon over the last gate and someone would call it filler...

Personally I can't wait for more Tarquin! :smallamused:

[danelsan]

Interesting. Well, there is hope, because very little survives contact with the OOTS.

Examples:

- OOTS visits some underground caverns. The caverns are destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

- OOTS visits some bandits. Their leader is deposed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) (And subsequently killed)

- OOTS visits an inn. Said inn is destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

- OOTS visits a city ruled by military despots. The city's fortress is destroyed, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) and their despotic rule falls to the Goblin Revolution.

- OOTS spends an extended period of time with a paladin. Paladin falls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

- OOTS visits some orcs. The orcs traditional gods are deposed, and replaced by a puppet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

Etc., etc. So, most likely, the Empire of BST is doomed. One way or another. A trail of destruction follows OOTS!:smallwink:

Heh. Never connected all that together in my head before. The OotS is almost as bad as Lina Inverse and her companions!

Edit: huh. My avatar used to show entirely. Have the dimensions for avatars changed?

[Belazure]

Great comic as ever, the last three panels are priceless :smallbiggrin:

Well, the least we can say about Tarquin is that he sees things in the long term. Probably the second biggest vilain, just behind Xykon ... maybe even on par with him.

[CrimsonAngel]

I honestly don't see why Elan sees the need to be so bent out of shape. His father may be evil, but he's the fun kind of evil. :smallbiggrin:

[Turalisj]

Great comic as ever, the last three panels are priceless :smallbiggrin:

Well, the least we can say about Tarquin is that he sees things in the long term. Probably the second biggest vilain, just behind Xykon ... maybe even on par with him.

Xykon's longest term goals are: Kill that annoying elf and paladin that threw my phylactery into a sewer, create undead out of them, then get enough power to laugh at every last wizard in creation.

[Mr. Scaly]

:smallbiggrin: Okay, that does it. Tarquin is going on my Top 10 Villains list along with Xykon.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Edit: huh. My avatar used to show entirely. Have the dimensions for avatars changed?

No, but they did stop auto-resizing.

[Harbajar]

Nicely titled, very appropriate! "helping" and "vested interest" :smallbiggrin:

*patiently awaits 763 and beyond*

[Asis]

I was totally expecting him to be a cliche'd evil character, specially with the 'choice' thing he was going on about before the 'battle' with his son. I mean, it still could be a cliche'd 'turn to the darkside' choice, but it's less likely now.
Just like he did with Paladins and MC's deaths, I'm pretty sure he's trying to make a point here

[CrimsonAngel]

I don't think Tarquin can THINK something only because Elan told him...

If you woke up from a coma and a doctor told you all of your loved ones were dead and that you'd been asleep for many years, would you believe him?

Or a better example would be: Would you believe your son if he told you his brother, your other son that you haven't seen in forever, was dead, would you believe him?

[calar]

Im beginning to think Tarquin is one of the more interesting characters in the story. Great job breaking with convention once again Giant.

[Turalisj]

I was totally expecting him to be a cliche'd evil character, specially with the 'choice' thing he was going on about before the 'battle' with his son. I mean, it still could be a cliche'd 'turn to the darkside' choice, but it's less likely now.
Just like he did with Paladins and MC's deaths, I'm pretty sure he's trying to make a point here

You mean the same point that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson had been trying to make ever since first edition came out? That alignment is a guideline, not a hard set path that must be followed without exception?

[mistformsquirrl]

This is why I read OOTS - that was awesome ><

Normally evil characters are utterly repellent to me, even the ones most people like... this guy though? Tarquin is awesome <. .>

[2-HeadedGiraffe]

This comic has continuously played with the alignment system. We have obvious divisions between Xykon and Redcloak, showing that just because two people are evil does not mean they'll get along. Then there's Miko, who despite being Lawful Good (at least at first) opposed the mostly-good Order. Now we have Tarquin, who looks like he's still willing to help the team even though he's evil and they're good.

Personally, I tend not to define NPC alignments when I DM, unless the PCs decide to use spells or abilities that require that information. Otherwise, I just leave alignments vague since I'm going to run the characters however I think is right, anyway.

[Dread Cthulhu]

Tarquin is an absolutely amazing character. Comics like these are why I read OOTS.

[silvadel]

Smarter response:

I have no idea what I need but Haley is the one who is best at such things -- why don't you talk to her about it.

---

Haley would probably take half the kingdom :)

[Turalisj]

Smarter response:

I have no idea what I need but Haley is the one who is best at such things -- why don't you talk to her about it.

---

Haley would probably take half the kingdom :)

You forget, that Haley is only so rabid about gaining money because her dad was taken for ransom, BY THE KINGDOM TARQUIN SECRETLY RULED.

[Anterean]

Every strip just makes me like Tarquin even more

[silvadel]

Interesting. Well, there is hope, because very little survives contact with the OOTS.

Examples:

- OOTS visits some underground caverns. The caverns are destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

- OOTS visits some bandits. Their leader is deposed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) (And subsequently killed)

- OOTS visits an inn. Said inn is destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

- OOTS visits a city ruled by military despots. The city's fortress is destroyed, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) and their despotic rule falls to the Goblin Revolution.

- OOTS spends an extended period of time with a paladin. Paladin falls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

- OOTS visits some orcs. The orcs traditional gods are deposed, and replaced by a puppet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

Etc., etc. So, most likely, the Empire of BST is doomed. One way or another. A trail of destruction follows OOTS!:smallwink:

Ooof -- you are right... Tarq would be much better off it they go and go quickly.... No matter where they go -- DOOM seems to follow them.

[Turalisj]

What about that village they visited? It didn't get destroyed, did it?

[MythicFox]

You forget, that Haley is only so rabid about gaining money because her dad was taken for ransom, BY THE KINGDOM TARQUIN SECRETLY RULED.

OtOoPCs actually makes it pretty clear that Haley was pretty dang greedy before the ransom. In fact, it goes out of its way to make that clear (so as to make the character trait more 'funny' and less 'tragic').

[The MunchKING]

... Well, other than our favorite lich, that is...

Oh he didn't live forever, Heck he died along time ago.

[Hrairoo]

o_0 oh my gosh! this is an awesome comic once again, mr. giant!

in the immortal words of jack sparrow, "a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest." tarquin's helping the order out of self interest should prove interesting once he meets roy.

i always knew the giant likes using tropes, but now he's going word for word!

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Agi Hammerthief]

who do you consider somebody
spoken as a true politician :smallbiggrin:
nice catch on T's part though

[tanonx]

It would be cool of Tarquin actually considered Elan's views, and changed his own a bit because of them. We haven't really had an alignment shift in the comic yet, that I know of anyhow.

[Callista]

Well, it was pretty impressive the way Elan reacted to the expectation of being killed. Very badass, in a silly Elan sort of way. No begging, no Please Don't, Daddy; just "Tell Haley I love her and if you don't mind, aim for a less-hurty organ!" I think Tarquin is at least impressed by his son; the phrase "a hero of your caliber" seems to imply that he is.

[Komitadji]

This strip is - by far - one of my favourites of the entire run so far. I love General Tarquin.

[SPoD]

Fun read, but at a point it felt like an author filibuster against the D&D alignment system. We've those here before, of course, but they've never convinced me- evil characters only seem to not be evil when it is convenient to the plot, but can be downright sick otherwise. Let's not forget Tarquin burned alive people just to entertain his son and is torturing a woman just so he can marry her. So I call BS.

You have completely missed the point.

Tarquin is spoofing players who complain about the alignment system. Rich is strongly in favor of it, as shown by the many ways he shows us that different characters of the same alignment can be unique. He's mocking players who claim that alignment is limited and unrealistic by putting their position in the mouth of an unrepentant mass murderer. He's saying that the only people who claim that moral frameworks are unnecessary are people who are utterly amoral; that only evil people claim to not need words like "good" and "evil". Of course Tarquin did horrible evil things and then claimed that the word "evil" doesn't matter; his hypocrisy is the entire point!

In short, if there is any authorial POV here, it's the exact opposite of what you think it is, because the author's tongue is in cheek at the time.

[Felixc-91]

I WAS RIGHT! HE ISN'T A DASHING SWORDSMAN! he's not even an evil equivalent!. he's just that good at combat! and on a side note... damn, not how i saw things continuing, but i was right again: The games must go on.
lols:smallbiggrin:

[jidasfire]

Since no one has pointed it out yet, I'd just like to say that Tarquin's reference to having a spare Ring of Regeneration explains where the cut on his chin went.

Naturally, I think storywise this is an interesting turn of events and makes it harder to guess what's going to happen next, but I mainly wanted to point out the first thing.

[Felixc-91]

i would like to add that i'm fairly sure that T is both incredibley awsoem, and telling the truth. The Show Must Go On.

[GreenMuffin]

Tarquin is awesome. Favorite character for sure now.

[Asis]

You forget, that Haley is only so rabid about gaining money because her dad was taken for ransom, BY THE KINGDOM TARQUIN SECRETLY RULED.
Her flashback scene in 'on the origins of PCs' was made, according to the Giant himself, to show the readers (I.E. us) that Haley was on the greedy side BEFORE she had her father captured.

[Nevereatcars]

No... no Dashing Swordsman? That's... such an unbelievable disappointment. And DAMMIT, Tarquin, why couldn't you kill him? It. Would. Have. Been. Beautiful.

[Z-Maker]

Great comic! I really wish more players understood alignment like the Giant.

^This. I approve of this message, by leaps and bounds. QFT

[Shatteredtower]

Great work. Delightful.

And I agree with SPoD ("Send Payment on Delivery"?) on the subject of Tarquin and his alignment.

[Nilan8888]

In short, if there is any authorial POV here, it's the exact opposite of what you think it is, because the author's tongue is in cheek at the time.

With all due respect, SPoD, this is itself an ironic post. It is entirely possible that this is not the correct reading either. The author's viewpoint, if they wish to share it, should be left up to the author.

[Acero]

Sorry if someone already caught this one of the other pages, but did Tarquin say sole remaining son?

[RaggedAngel]

Sorry if someone already caught this one of the other pages, but did Tarquin say sole remaining son?

Nale is believed to be dead by the characters. Click back to the beginning of this story arc, when Tarquin first reveals himself as Elan's father.

[Shale]

Yes. The Order, which is Tarquin's only source of information on Nale's activities after leaving the Western Continent, believes him to have died in the explosion at Azure City.

[Kish]

Elan told Malack that Nale is dead, remember?

Those two ninjas probably killed him...

[SPoD]

With all due respect, SPoD, this is itself an ironic post. It is entirely possible that this is not the correct reading either. The author's viewpoint, if they wish to share it, should be left up to the author.

Someone stated their interpretation. I stated mine, and my opinion that they are wrong. They are free to disagree or ignore me if they wish, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to say what I think. And yes, it is possible my reading is not correct, but I thought that was implied by the fact that I am not a deity or other type of perfect infallible being. I'm not going to surround my statements with wishy-washy language like "IMHO" or "but I could be wrong" just to make other people feel better about themselves.

If you don't like what I wrote, fine. But don't imply that I'm not allowed to voice my opinion, or that I somehow told him he couldn't voice his. I told him he was wrong, not that he wasn't permitted to speak. In fact, the only person here who seems to not want to let someone state their opinion is you.

Also, 400 years of literary criticism would dispute your suggestion that only the author is allowed to guess at the author's viewpoint.

[Elfin]

...I love Tarquin.

[Nilan8888]

If you don't like what I wrote, fine. But don't imply that I'm not allowed to voice my opinion, or that I somehow told him he couldn't voice his. I told him he was wrong, not that he wasn't permitted to speak. In fact, the only person here who seems to not want to let someone state their opinion is you.

SPoD, I would prefer it if you would calm down, if this phrasing is an accurate indication to your current temperment. I don't know where you are getting this impression that I am the only person here wanting to suppress an opinion but I can say for certain that you certainly didn't get it from the three regular-length sentences of my post.

The entire reason for my post was that you did not present your previous response as opinion. For instance, the phrase 'I think' or 'in my opinion'... or the word 'opinion' itself... was missing from that post. It is only in this subsequent one that it appears. The phrasing of the post was entirely that you were right and that the original poster was wrong, and that it was more than just opinion, or a guess.

EDIT: I notice now that you did refer to these elements of speech as "wishy-washy talk". I would venture that they are more than that. Much more, in fact. I would go so far that they can be taken as tokens of respect, and that the lack of them are tokens of disrespect.

But I suppose that is, well, just my opinion.

[Kish]

I agree with SPoD.

I'd like to add that the phenomenon of "assume X saying something means the author believes it" mystifies me even when the character is not presented as evil enough to give Voldemort, Skeletor, and Darkseid pause.

[snikrept]

Evil guy that helps Good to fight other Evil because it's in the Evil guy's self-interest to win that fight. IMO any player that's tried playing an Evil character in a party of do-gooders can relate to this.

[SPoD]

The entire reason for my post was that you did not present your previous response as opinion. For instance, the phrase 'I think' or 'in my opinion'... or the word 'opinion' itself... was missing from that post. It is only in this subsequent one that it appears. The phrasing of the post was entirely that you were right and that the original poster was wrong, and that it was more than just opinion.

It's absurd that anyone would think that what I wrote was anything BUT an opinion. Everything everyone ever writes on this or any other message board is an opinion. I shouldn't need to tag it with weasel words just so people grasp that I am not omniscient or telepathic and do not believe myself to be so.

People don't need to write, "In my opinion, Tarquin is awesome!" It's assumed that if they write "Tarquin is awesome!" that such is, by general understanding of how language works, an opinion.

[fractal]

Well, it was pretty impressive the way Elan reacted to the expectation of being killed. Very badass, in a silly Elan sort of way. No begging, no Please Don't, Daddy; just "Tell Haley I love her and if you don't mind, aim for a less-hurty organ!" I think Tarquin is at least impressed by his son; the phrase "a hero of your caliber" seems to imply that he is.Well, considering his "me-centric" view of the world, Elan is assumed to be impressive and influential regardless of reality. That's why he's believed to be the leader of the OotS. It's how evil people can care about those close to them while still acting callously towards everyone else - only friends and relatives are important and "real".

[fractal]

Evil guy that helps Good to fight other Evil because it's in the Evil guy's self-interest to win that fight. IMO any player that's tried playing an Evil character in a party of do-gooders can relate to this.Yeah. The guy earlier mentioned the trope of the lawful evil character helping the good guys against the chaotic evil madman. That works fine, but there's also the chaotic evil rogue who helps to overthrow the lawful evil tyrant. Good is (relatively) happy to have someone else good in charge, but evil hates someone else evil being in charge just as much as it hates good being in charge.

[Nilan8888]

It's absurd that anyone would think that what I wrote was anything BUT an opinion. Everything everyone ever writes on this or any other message board is an opinion. I shouldn't need to tag it with weasel words just so people grasp that I am not omniscient or telepathic and do not believe myself to be so.

People don't need to write, "In my opinion, Tarquin is awesome!" It's assumed that if they write "Tarquin is awesome!" that such is, by general understanding of how language works, an opinion.

I did not think that your post was anything but opinion. What was not so clear was that YOU thought it was anything but opinion. And that is NOT an absurd notion. When people write "Tarquin is awesome", after all, they're not refuting or responding to anyone's opinion by saying that.

If you're going to describe phrases such as "I think" and "in my opinion" as "weasel words" well... I think at this point our conversation is speaking for itself.

In respect for the mods not scrubbing our posts, we should take this to PM because it's not helping out the rest of the thread at this point.

[AstralFire]

For the record - I both agree with SPoD's reading of the comic, and Nilan.

[Nilan8888]

On the matter of SPoD's actual original post, I actually don't totally disagree with her, btw. I do, for the record though, think it's neither completely one thing or the other in terms of moral relativism. If there's a standpoint, I think it's both that Tarquin has a point in what he says, and yet there is a clear standard by which it should be rejected.

[rewinn]

So I was wrong about T being a Dashing Swordsman. Such things happen!

Sigh: Kids never understand their folks... :)

:elan: Every teenager thinks that their parents are evil, but my dad REALLY IS evil!


Interesting. Well, there is hope, because very little survives contact with the OOTS.

Examples:

- OOTS visits some underground caverns. The caverns are destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

- OOTS visits some bandits. Their leader is deposed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) (And subsequently killed)

- OOTS visits an inn. Said inn is destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html)

- OOTS visits a city ruled by military despots. The city's fortress is destroyed, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) and their despotic rule falls to the Goblin Revolution.

- OOTS spends an extended period of time with a paladin. Paladin falls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

- OOTS visits some orcs. The orcs traditional gods are deposed, and replaced by a puppet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

Etc., etc. So, most likely, the Empire of BST is doomed. One way or another. A trail of destruction follows OOTS!:smallwink:

Did you ever notice how this happens to heros - whereever they go, disaster follows? We know it today as the "Murder She Wrote" effect, but Dashell Hammett made it the climactic plot point in "The Dain Curse" and of course Isaac Asimov did the same in "Foundation and Empire".

Evil guy that helps Good to fight other Evil because it's in the Evil guy's self-interest to win that fight. IMO any player that's tried playing an Evil character in a party of do-gooders can relate to this.
:belkar: Hey! I'm standing over HERE!

[Indalecio]

Side note: Tarquin thinks that Nale is dead. So his information gathering skills are limited.

Or possibly he knows something the rest of us don't?

[Kish]

Or possibly he knows something the rest of us don't?
50 gold says Nale is, as of the time of the current comic, alive.

[Niveus Candidus]

What the heck are you talking about? He's a high level fighter who won a melee battle against a bard with 2-3 levels max of a combat-oriented class.

1. He did not win a melee battle, he won a pun duel. An obscure form of combat that is not his typical method.

2. The combat-oriented class allows Elan to substitute his charisma score for his strength score, and presumably has fighter-BAB. If it does half of what we know of it, it effectively will reverse engineer a bard into something beefy. Not sublime chord good, but if built into with the right feats it could be quite the gish.


Um... what?

First off, Elan isn't front line soldier material. He's support the troops guy. While he can do some combat (he took 2-3 levels of Dashing swordsman so he wouldn't be so helpless anymore), Roy, Durkon, or Belkar could wipe the floor with him easily. Tarquin, who likely has some level advantages to the OotS gang, had no problem trouncing him. This doesn't represent being 'twinked out the gills' anymore than sending your first level rogue to challenge the 5th level captain of the guard and losing does.

It would be more like my 17th level character challenging a 13th level character to precisely what he is good at, and whipping him at it with no visible form of magical aide. And by like, I mean that is exactly what just happened.


Secondly, the ring isn't "just lying around". Tarquin, as we've seen, is friends with (a) spellcaster(s). He has the ability to make requests for items. Not only that, Elan is his only heir (that he likes anyway, he seems to consider Nale better off dead). This is like the king giving his son the prince a family heirloom sword. The sword in this case happens to be a ring that can heal you.

Third to last panel: "In fact, I have a few duplicate magic items that may really help you."

[Aimbot]

With all due respect, SPoD, this is itself an ironic post. It is entirely possible that this is not the correct reading either. The author's viewpoint, if they wish to share it, should be left up to the author.

Yeah, It's imposible to infer the message behind literature. All those English majors are just wasting their time. We have no idea if Harriot Beecher Stowe was really anti-slavery.



the last panel in this comic was among the best ever for this series.

[pendell]

*Applauds madly*

Terrific! Absolutely terrific! Having demonstrated that it is possible to have a lawful good antagonist, we now see what we can do with a lawful evil ally!

News flash to Elan: You're not a paladin. You're not even lawful. Someone is not necessarily your ally because they are good, and someone is not necessarily your enemy because they are evil.

It's all about picking and choosing your battles. Saving the world takes priority over sorting out the continent. You can co-operate for short-term mutual advantage without sacrificing your alignment.

Well done story telling in this strip!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shale]

We don't know how, mechanically speaking, Tarquin nullified Elan's puns. It may just be that all you have to do to cancel out the Dashing Swordsman bonus is to make a viable pun of your own, which means that anybody with a good enough INT score to think on their feet can do it easily if they know the trick. It's not like Dashing Swordsmen are the only people in the world who can make bad jokes.

[brionl]

I keep trying to tell you guys, that just because Tarquin is evil, doesn't mean he has to automatically oppose the order. As long as they don't try to pick a (worse) fight with him, he can just let them carry on their merry way.

[SPoD]

*Applauds madly*

Terrific! Absolutely terrific! Having demonstrated that it is possible to have a lawful good antagonist, we now see what we can do with a lawful evil ally!

News flash to Elan: You're not a paladin. You're not even lawful. Someone is not necessarily your ally because they are good, and someone is not necessarily your enemy because they are evil.

It's all about picking and choosing your battles. Saving the world takes priority over sorting out the continent. You can co-operate for short-term mutual advantage without sacrificing your alignment.

Well done story telling in this strip!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The fly in the ointment, however, is Haley's dad. Because the fact that his father is imprisoning his girlfriend's father has the potential to make them enemies, all other issues notwithstanding. Remember that Ian knows all about Tarquin's game and was arrested for treason against Lord Tyrinar the Puppet. Tarquin will not necessarily want to release a known agitator, and the Order will not want to leave the EOB with Ian still in jail.

IN MY OPINION.

[Nilan8888]

Yeah, It's imposible to infer the message behind literature. All those English majors are just wasting their time. We have no idea if Harriot Beecher Stowe was really anti-slavery.

Being a former English major, I can tell you from a somewhat assurance (I've hardly attended every university) that inferring the messages behind literature was not quite done in the same manner as the exchange to which you refer.

[Sijo]

You have completely missed the point.

Tarquin is spoofing players who complain about the alignment system. Rich is strongly in favor of it, as shown by the many ways he shows us that different characters of the same alignment can be unique. He's mocking players who claim that alignment is limited and unrealistic by putting their position in the mouth of an unrepentant mass murderer. He's saying that the only people who claim that moral frameworks are unnecessary are people who are utterly amoral; that only evil people claim to not need words like "good" and "evil". Of course Tarquin did horrible evil things and then claimed that the word "evil" doesn't matter; his hypocrisy is the entire point!

In short, if there is any authorial POV here, it's the exact opposite of what you think it is, because the author's tongue is in cheek at the time.

I have seen plenty of OOTS strips where the alignment system is criticized... mostly to justify feeling pity for villains who also do VERY cruel acts. Like Redcloak, Belkar, and now Tarquin. It's probably my least favorite part of the series. Whether Rick meant it that way or not, I'm *sick*of it. It ruined what otherwise was a fun strip for me, and I'm simply expressing my opinion. :smallannoyed:

[SPoD]

I have seen plenty of OOTS strips where the alignment system is criticized... mostly to justify feeling pity for villains who also do VERY cruel acts. Like Redcloak, Belkar, and now Tarquin. It's probably my least favorite part of the series. Whether Rick meant it that way or not, I'm *sick*of it. It ruined what otherwise was a fun strip for me, and I'm simply expressing my opinion. :smallannoyed:

You are still missing the point. We are not intended to feel pity for any of those characters. We are intended to think they are hypocrites and self-deluders, because they are. Redcloak contradicts himself dozens of times. Both he and Belkar are 100% evil and Rich practically says as much in the book commentaries. You are mistaking the fact that THEY think their actions are justified with their actions actually BEING justified.

But if you can't tell the difference between what a character says and what the author believes, nothing I say will make any difference anyway. I'm just curious if you can link to these mythical strips where the author criticizes the alignment system. I'm really curious to see them, since I seem to have missed them every time I've ever read the comic.

[Kish]

I have seen plenty of OOTS strips where the alignment system is criticized...
Passive voice makes this statement objectively true, but bizarre. You're saying the villains should avoid any efforts to justify themselves?

No, you mean "I have seen plenty of OotS strips where Rich Burlew criticizes the alignment system," don't you? And that is a much less objective statement.

[Tobimaro]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png <- this man. Is. Awesome.

I have to give Tarquin some respect here. He may be evil, but he realizes that there may be a much more powerful villain out there. So, he now wants to help those heroes accomplish their goals. Tarquin may be evil, but evil does not necessarily equal being stupid.

[bellisaurius]

I wonder if there's a third axis to the alignment system: Evangelicism (Preachy) vs Acceptance (live and let live). Assuming my own feelings aren't uncommon, I think this aspect has a lot to do with why an evil Tarquin can seem affable, while a good miko can come off as a jerk.

OChul and Tarquin dwell on the acceptance end (unless they stand in the way of some other task). Miko would be in the Evangelical end, willing to forcefully convert as need be. Redcloak is probably evangelical, but he's often sympathetic, so it often doesn't rub too harshly on the reader.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Now, if he opts for B or C, he's still going to loot the castle and everything in it as reward for himself for a good day of work. Seriously, he's going to take everything that's not nailed down. Then he will get a crowbar and take everything that is nailed down. If it's too heavy for him to lift, he'll just sell it to an ogre or a giant. If he can find the deed to the castle, he will sell it. If he can't, he will try to sell it anyways. If he can't sell it, he will live in it/make it a headquarters for the team.

I don't know...to stay CG and not CN, I think you'd have to give most of the loot to either the new rulers or the people. You would have to keep enough to upgrade your equipment and take down more tyrants, of course.

And that sounds like a rogue, a ranger, a fighter, that paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana...barbarians don't have a monopoly on getting results through kicking ass, cracking heads, breaking legs, punching kidneys, taking names, and sticking genitals in fax-machines.

[Hallavast]

So... if Elan had killed Tarquin and looted the ring from his body... you know what, nevermind. I find I'm liking Elan's dad more and more with each new comic. Which is interesting because I don't much care for Elan.

:smallwink:

[silvadel]

I have seen plenty of OOTS strips where the alignment system is criticized... mostly to justify feeling pity for villains who also do VERY cruel acts. Like Redcloak, Belkar, and now Tarquin. It's probably my least favorite part of the series. Whether Rick meant it that way or not, I'm *sick*of it. It ruined what otherwise was a fun strip for me, and I'm simply expressing my opinion. :smallannoyed:

I think Miko had something to say on that very point in the Foreward to Start of Darkness.

[fractal]

So... if Elan had killed Tarquin and looted the ring from his body... you know what, nevermind. I find I'm liking Elan's dad more and more with each new comic. Which is interesting because I don't much care for Elan.

:smallwink:Yeah, Haley didn't seem concerned which of Crystal's magic items had been made by torturing people to death.

[krossbow]

I honestly don't see why Elan sees the need to be so bent out of shape. His father may be evil, but he's the fun kind of evil. :smallbiggrin:



Imagine that someone that you loved, respected and admired suddenly admitted, openly and proudly, to murdering people for fun, torturing innocents, and abusing woman. Would you just ignore that? Click back two comics and look at Elan's horrified expression there.

Your not realizing Elan's nature here: He is pure innocence. While he does engage in violence if needed, Elan is one of those individuals who HONESTLY believed that everyone in the world could learn to get along in harmony and work together with enough work; he's like a male version of Collette from tales of symphonia. When people slap him in the face with situations where his world view is challenged, it REALLY slams his SAN score (hence his expressions and horror at individuals like kubota who force him to realize that killing might just be the only option).

Elan would never condone evil; he's almost like a paladin in that regard in that he's probably the character most staunchly "good" aligned. As such, he cannot help but avoid getting bent out of shape, no matter how fun someone might be.




It would be cool of Tarquin actually considered Elan's views, and changed his own a bit because of them. We haven't really had an alignment shift in the comic yet, that I know of anyhow.

While i personally would like such an occurence, i can't help but realize that hoping for this is probably pretty delusional; it reminds me of Elan's belief that his father and mother were going to get married again. People just don't change that easily, especially one who seems so happy and satisfied with his lot in life (as tarquin very clearly is)

[silvadel]

Yeah, Haley didn't seem concerned which of Crystal's magic items had been made by torturing people to death.

I think it has something to do with the ring being given freely.

If you accept the gift of someone evil when that gift was obtained in a horrible manner, you become somewhat a part of that horrible act.

If you were to kill the evil and get the same object then that doesnt apply and if anything you are putting the item to better use than it would have been.

[AstralFire]

Your not realizing Elan's nature here: He is pure innocence. While he does engage in violence if needed, Elan is one of those individuals who HONESTLY believed that everyone in the world could learn to get along in harmony and work together with enough work; he's like a male version of Collette from tales of symphonia. When people slap him in the face with situations where his world view is challenged, it REALLY slams his SAN score (hence his expressions and horror at individuals like kubota who force him to realize that killing might just be the only option).

I'd say more like Lloyd than Colette; Elan is not annoyingly dull, flat, quiet, and self-sacrificing. He is, however, annoyingly dumb and overeager. (Also, I love Elan and tolerate Lloyd, while I have searched in vain for an action replay code just to mute all of Colette's lines.)

[Hallavast]

I think it has something to do with the ring being given freely.

If you accept the gift of someone evil when that gift was obtained in a horrible manner, you become somewhat a part of that horrible act.

You do? :smalleek: Are you sure you didn't just make that up? :smalltongue:

After all, Tarquin didn't torture, loot, rape, pillage, and plunder for the sake of giving Elan that gift. It's just kind of an afterthought, really.



If you were to kill the evil and get the same object then that doesnt apply and if anything you are putting the item to better use than it would have been.

Well, you'd be putting the item to better use either way. To get this correct, you're saying that taking the ring by force is less evil than accepting it as a gift? That somehow seems unintuitive...

[ADHD]

i don't think Tarquin help Elan out of love (maybe just a little). Remembre that Tarquin said that the destiny of the empire of blood lies in the hand of Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html) I think that Tarquin les Elan live for is own selfish need.

[Nevereatcars]

Wait. Wait wait wait wait. WAIT. Tarquin, a total player with a grand total of NINE wives to his name (going on ten), has only TWO sons? One of whom is presumed dead to him? Any math nerds out there? What's the statistic for a man to get eight barren wives IN A ROW?

[silvadel]

Yes I am...

If a paladin accepted a major magical gift from a demon knowing that the item came from someone tortured and then killed, they would be in trouble -- potentially even falling.

If the same paladin killed the demon and then looted the item, it would be situation normal.

[Jack Zander]

Man, people can't even give rings of regeneration away. Yes, they are that bad.

[DeltaEmil]

Wait. Wait wait wait wait. WAIT. Tarquin, a total player with a grand total of NINE wives to his name (going on ten), has only TWO sons? One of whom is presumed dead to him? Any math nerds out there? What's the statistic for a man to get eight barren wives IN A ROW?Depends if he "loses them to mysterious circumstances" when his "wives" have gained "a few pounds" after intercoursse, because he doesn't want to deal with child caring after the entire deal with Nale...

[Toper]

Wait. Wait wait wait wait. WAIT. Tarquin, a total player with a grand total of NINE wives to his name (going on ten), has only TWO sons? One of whom is presumed dead to him? Any math nerds out there? What's the statistic for a man to get eight barren wives IN A ROW?
Well, Tarquin felt genuinely guilty about abandoning Elan, and Nale was apparently a disappointment at best, and he's been pretty busy with the whole empire-building thing, so maybe he's just not interested in having more kids... although I actually agree that this is kind of surprising on its face, Tarquin doesn't seem like the sort to just give up on producing better progeny.

[Hallavast]

Yes I am...

If a paladin accepted a major magical gift from a demon knowing that the item came from someone tortured and then killed, they would be in trouble -- potentially even falling.

Yeah... I don't think they would. There's no evil act that I can see. I mean, he probly shouldn't be consorting with demons, but even that by itself isn't fall worthy. What if he's teaching demon childeren how to read and stuff and one of them gives him an apple? Would it be wrong for him to accept it?


If the same paladin killed the demon and then looted the item, it would be situation normal.

Should he kill the demon baby and take the apple instead? What if he picked the Demon's pocket or demanded the Demon give him money at swordpoint in some alley in New York? What if he tortured the demon into telling him where its apples were stashed (because everybody knows demons have the best apple stashes).

What if the demon wasn't a demon at all, but a person with basic human rights?

You know what, nevermind... I don't know if I want to start one of these...

[correnos]

Alignment systems can look so very limited and unrealistic when you are on the wrong side of it, wouldn't you agree?

Nice motivation on Tarquin's part, though. "Yes, son, I will gladly help you get rid of my competition for me. *snickers*"

When Tarquin says that he currently holds a third of the continent, I wonder if he's implying that cooperation between his cohorts isn't as smooth as could be hoped. Also, it's entirely possible that he was embellishing events slightly when he said that all the others in his group rallied around him to influence events.

[ADHD]

Yeah... I don't think they would. There's no evil act that I can see. I mean, he probly shouldn't be consorting with demons, but even that by itself isn't fall worthy. What if he's teaching demon childeren how to read and stuff and one of them gives him an apple? Would it be wrong for him to accept it?


Should he kill the demon baby and take the apple instead? What if he picked the Demon's pocket or demanded the Demon give him money at swordpoint in some alley in New York? What if he tortured the demon into telling him where its apples were stashed (because everybody knows demons have the best apple stashes).

What if the demon wasn't a demon at all, but a person with basic human rights?

You know what, nevermind... I don't know if I want to start one of these...

the difference is the demon (in d&d, because i don't think that there is demon in real life) are evil, and there is no exception to that rule (and there is no such thing ase a baby demon)

[Toothpaste]

Great comic I like how though he is most certainly evil hes not overdoing it. Belkar is CE and i always liked him though he was not overdone persay.
Alot of playres acully play in moderatly evil ways, stealing, killing when it suits them more then dipomacy and such

[Hallavast]

the difference is the demon (in d&d, because i don't think that there is demon in real life) are evil, and there is no exception to that rule (and there is no such thing ase a baby demon)

Tieflings.

Besides, demons are a dodge of the original question. We were talking about tyrranical human family members here.

[ADHD]

yes, tiefling would be another mather.

But even then, it wouldn't be really goodish or loyal to accept a gift from a person that told you the he torture someone to get it

[Kish]

the difference is the demon (in d&d, because i don't think that there is demon in real life) are evil, and there is no exception to that rule
Yeah, WotC never published a Lawful Good succubus who was actually a paladin!

No evil celestials show up in their material either, particularly not ruling levels of the Nine Hells!

[Zevox]

Huh, you know, I've rather got to respect Tarquin after this. Smart critiquing of the alignment system, taking Elan's attack in stride and sparing him for perfectly logical as well as emotional reasons, and continuing to be willing to help him - he may be a cruel, merciless tyrant, but at least he's an intelligent one who doesn't simply fall into the old stereotypes of his role.

Still hoping he'll be deposed or dead by the end of the book, but still, good villain.

Zevox

[Gift Jeraff]

When Tarquin says that he currently holds a third of the continent, I wonder if he's implying that cooperation between his cohorts isn't as smooth as could be hoped. Also, it's entirely possible that he was embellishing events slightly when he said that all the others in his group rallied around him to influence events.
Or he, y'know, means that his three empires cover roughly a third of the continent.

Which they most certainly do. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

[ADHD]

Yeah, WotC never published a Lawful Good succubus who was actually a paladin!

No evil celestials show up in their material either, particularly not ruling levels of the Nine Hells!

okay, they are the exception that prove the rule

[Boogastreehouse]

By laws of drama Elan's lack of that ring is going to hurt him.

>snip<

So... Elan is going to loose a limb. :smalleek:

...or an eye... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0502.html)

...foreshadowing...?

dun dun DUUHH!

[Calmness]

Strips like this really make me wish Elan were more competent. Tarquin knows so much about Elan's and the Order's plans now.

[Deuce]

Wait. Wait wait wait wait. WAIT. Tarquin, a total player with a grand total of NINE wives to his name (going on ten), has only TWO sons? One of whom is presumed dead to him? Any math nerds out there? What's the statistic for a man to get eight barren wives IN A ROW?

Well, they'd have to survive at least 9 months after first meeting him -quite likely longer.:smalleek:

[Vemynal]

We had Miko who was basically the Lawful good villain to the Order, basically a take on how Good people can do wrong and be a pain in the rear

We had Girard's show of Chaotic 'something', and how his paranoia and 'anti-establishment' obsession hurt his cause more than anything else

and now we have Tarquin, who is Lawful Evil and more than anything else wants to help the party (and I believe him, what he says to Elan rings true).
He is evil but admittedly a wonderful ally and great source of assistance to the Order (basically a foil to Miko)

Tarquin, at least in my opinion, is the Giants best character to date.

[CelestialMagpie]

Fantastic character development!

Despite the horrible things he's done to accomplish a choke-hold over the continent, Tarquin is ultimately a man who just loves his son. That would make sense, considering he doesn't mind torturing his wives into "loving" him :smallyuk: too.

But there is no way Roy is going to go along with this, or Haley. My bet is that Elan is going to have to spend at least one strip calling in any and all favors he thinks he has, just to get the Order out of the city, and away from a fight.

Perhaps Red will have a last minute stand and get a pot shot off at Tarquin? That would be unexpected too....

[Swordpriest]

Fun read, but at a point it felt like an author filibuster against the D&D alignment system. We've those here before, of course, but they've never convinced me- evil characters only seem to not be evil when it is convenient to the plot, but can be downright sick otherwise. Let's not forget Tarquin burned alive people just to entertain his son and is torturing a woman just so he can marry her. So I call BS.

Can we get back to the story now? Roy must be getting impatient. :smallsigh:

Actually, I got the opposite impression. The last two or three comics seem to me to be in favor of the D&D alignment system. Tarquin, who rejects it as "outmoded," is an utterly detestable piece of garbage. He is a rapist, a torturer, a murderer, a tyrant, and smug, obnoxious hypocrite. Does criticism of the alignment system from the mouth of a sub-human like Tarquin represent a valid criticism of the system? :smallconfused:

I mean, is saying "there is no evil" when you're setting fire to a six year old orphan on the rack really a condemnation of moral systems? Isn't it more just a flimsy justification for being a monster? "There's no good or evil, so although I'm doing evil stuff, I can't really be evil, because that's just an outmoded label."

Isn't it suggesting rather strongly that those who deny the existence of good and evil are just making an excuse for their perfidy?

I think that's pretty self-evident in the strip. Having a piece of dung like Tarquin criticize the alignment system isn't an author condemnation of the alignment system, it's a way to show that people who dismiss all moral ideas and codes as "outmoded" may be doing so for the purpose of excusing detestable actions on their part.

[sihnfahl]

Strips like this really make me wish Elan were more competent. Tarquin knows so much about Elan's and the Order's plans now.
He also knew because Haley let slip that they were VERY interested in Draketooth... and so Tarquin used her eagerness to find out as a hook to keep them in place.

[Nevereatcars]

Swordpriest, something about you just seems to scream at the top of its voice "I DO NOT LIKE GENERAL TARQUIN!!!!!". But of course, that couldn't be it, because Tarquin is awesome, however true your statements may be...

EDIT: jk

[Wadoka]

What we need now... are several strips worth of debate, between, say, Durkon, Malack, Tarquin... and O-Chul!

:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:

[fractal]

Well, Tarquin felt genuinely guilty about abandoning Elan, and Nale was apparently a disappointment at best, and he's been pretty busy with the whole empire-building thing, so maybe he's just not interested in having more kids... although I actually agree that this is kind of surprising on its face, Tarquin doesn't seem like the sort to just give up on producing better progeny.Tarquin's been going out of his way to avoid having more children, after Nale.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html

[Hironomus]

What did Tarquin mean 'sole remaining son'?
just that he has disowned Nale (has he? I forget) or is he alluding to something more sinister?

[Nilan8888]

Does criticism of the alignment system from the mouth of a sub-human like Tarquin represent a valid criticism of the system?

Much as the Joker's soliloquy on human nature could be interpreted as a valid critique on the same... yes, yes it could.

The fact that someone is a monster does not mean that they do not have a point, and that they have absolutely no insights into anything. Yes, what Tarquin does is evil and yes, much of what he does is done regardless of the "better world" he professes the be creating.

This does not mean everything he says can or should be written off, however. That, IMO, would be hubris.

[Shale]

What did Tarquin mean 'sole remaining son'?
just that he has disowned Nale (has he? I forget) or is he alluding to something more sinister?

The only people who know the Linear Guild escaped Azure City before it exploded are the fiends and the Linear Guild themselves.

[Swordpriest]

This does not mean everything he says can or should be written off, however. That, IMO, would be hubris.

Except that he doesn't say anything particularly deep. He just throws out a couple of epithets and leaves it at that.

"Ideas of good and evil are outmoded. Therefore, I'm not evil for torturing people to death when they want to be free of my loathsome, oppressive society which has turned them into slaves. Anything I do is fine, because there's no good and evil, because I say so."

Sounds like shallow, hypocritical self-justification to me. He says nothing that really argues against the alignment system. All he says is, "I don't like alignment because I don't want to be labeled evil, so it doesn't exist."

I mean, I can say "the sky isn't really blue and dandelions aren't really yellow, it's just that most people say they are. But there really isn't blue or yellow, because I don't like them." But that doesn't mean that I have anything worth hearing.

[MarkusWolfe]

yes, tiefling would be another mather.

But even then, it wouldn't be really goodish or loyal to accept a gift from a person that told you the he torture someone to get it

As I said earlier, you can't change the fact that he tortured someone for it earlier. And he won't do it again to get another one; he DID say it was a spare he had kicking around.

[MarkusWolfe]

I don't know...to stay CG and not CN, I think you'd have to give most of the loot to either the new rulers or the people. You would have to keep enough to upgrade your equipment and take down more tyrants, of course.

And that sounds like a rogue, a ranger, a fighter, that paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana...barbarians don't have a monopoly on getting results through kicking ass, cracking heads, breaking legs, punching kidneys, taking names, and sticking genitals in fax-machines.

You were correct up until that bit about the fax-machines.

The thing is that they all have their own styles.

The rogue and the ranger do it with some amount of stealth and subtlety, usually with the rogue assassinating folks and the ranger doing some Robin Hood stuff.

The Paladin never tries to use subtlety in the first place. He just strides in and Smites Evil left and right in a GLORIOUS personal crusade of JUSTICE.

The Barbarian tries to use stealth and subtlety. Key word is TRIES. When he finds it doesn't work, he throws it out the window and goes on a killing spree no less than 3 times less subtle than the Paladins crusade.

As for the loot.....a barbarian has got to make a living. On top of the equipment upgrades, he needs some change for wenches and mead. Of course, if I get all my wenches and mead locally for the next month, the people still get the money. EVERYONE WINS!

[Callista]

Elan would've been stupid to take the ring. How does he know Tarquin won't just torture some other poor schmoe to death to replace the backup ring he gave to Elan? No way would a decent guy like Elan risk that. He'll ask V to make him a ring if he wants one that badly, and no torture involved.

[Rakarth]

Huh, you know, I've rather got to respect Tarquin after this. Smart critiquing of the alignment system, taking Elan's attack in stride and sparing him for perfectly logical as well as emotional reasons, and continuing to be willing to help him - he may be a cruel, merciless tyrant, but at least he's an intelligent one who doesn't simply fall into the old stereotypes of his role.

Still hoping he'll be deposed or dead by the end of the book, but still, good villain.

Zevox

Have to agree with this; Tarquin's the type of villain who's the best at what he does, because he's pragmatic and doesn't place limits around himself.

Having said that...I'm kind of hoping he'll stick around and see the Light. You know, Redemption-style.

Good comic with a useful plot build-up.

[Felixc-91]

Have to agree with this; Tarquin's the type of villain who's the best at what he does, because he's pragmatic and doesn't place limits around himself.

Having said that...I'm kind of hoping he'll stick around and see the Light. You know, Redemption-style.

Good comic with a useful plot build-up. Tarquin: so awesome in concept, such a horrific excuse for life in reality.

[Conuly]

I mean, is saying "there is no evil" when you're setting fire to a six year old orphan on the rack really a condemnation of moral systems?

Oh, please. There is no evidence that Tarquin has ever set fire to a single six year old orphan. All the escaped slaves were normal, adult-sized - and for all we know, their parents are still alive! Let's at least keep our condemnations of his behavior realistic! :smalltongue:


Tarquin: so awesome in concept, such a horrific excuse for life in reality.

Yes, this.

[Azukar]

He's offering to give Elan a major magical item and, at this point, seems to have laid all his cards on the table.

But he might still have an ace up his sleeve... and a joker in his pocket... and another ace in his left shoe.... And a third ace in his right shoe.

All very true points, agreed. Doesn't add any thoughts to whether or not he'd be willing to let Ian go, though.

[Azukar]

Had a thought on my way home from the daily grind:

D'you suppose Julio Scoundrel ever crossed paths with Tarquin? The latter knows how to counter pun-fighting; I don't imagine there are too many Dashing Swordsmen running around the place...

[Sylthia]

Great Comic, I wonder if Nale will make an appearance before the arc is over. He'd probably be insanely jealous since Elan is now the favorite.

[Ave]

I love how Tarquin is helping his son out of his own self-interest, once again proving you can be Evil without doing it for the Evulz.

He did his fair share of 'evulz' doing the sign.
And he is doing his 'business as usual evils' by keeping Haley's father hostage.
Learning that, will shake Elan up a bit.

[Felixc-91]

Had a thought on my way home from the daily grind:

D'you suppose Julio Scoundrel ever crossed paths with Tarquin? The latter knows how to counter pun-fighting; I don't imagine there are too many Dashing Swordsmen running around the place...it would make sense, Julio and Tarquin... but why did they clash? they are alignment opposites (or damn close)... maybe J raided a country T was running (he did seem to have engaged in some piracy) and they ended up fighting? seems like a long shot, but the only other explanation i got involves a back story that will probably bring up more Star Wars comments.

[krossbow]

it would make sense, Julio and Tarquin... but why did they clash? they are alignment opposites (or damn close)... maybe J raided a country T was running (he did seem to have engaged in some piracy) and they ended up fighting? seems like a long shot, but the only other explanation i got involves a back story that will probably bring up more Star Wars comments.


Tarquin caught him cheating with elan's mother.:smalltongue:

[Niveus Candidus]

Wait. Wait wait wait wait. WAIT. Tarquin, a total player with a grand total of NINE wives to his name (going on ten), has only TWO sons? One of whom is presumed dead to him? Any math nerds out there? What's the statistic for a man to get eight barren wives IN A ROW?

Maybe Tarquin is a Cylon, and he only can procreate with the wife he actually loved. Note, the wife in question is alive.

[Felixc-91]

Maybe Tarquin is a Cylon, and he only can procreate with the wife he actually loved. Note, the wife in question is alive.it was stated that he went to considerable effort to avoid having kids. now, the nice version of how he would achieve that involves a reinforced protection spell. the not so nice version involves the removal of a certain organ in each of his wives.:smallfrown:

[EvilJames]

I don't care how affable he is, he's a still a tyrant only marginally better than Xykon. I will lose ALL respect for the Order if they see fit to leave peaceably with him still in power, if it's done solely on the grounds that "he's capable of love." I mean, I'm a sucker for redemption stories and all, but that's just not going to cut it.

I think they will leave him in power, but not because he's capable of love, but because they really can't do anything about him right now. He and his scheme are just to well entrenched to be removed by standard adventuring means. Besides they have much bigger fish to fry.

[silvadel]

All very true points, agreed. Doesn't add any thoughts to whether or not he'd be willing to let Ian go, though.

If asked nicely by Elan -- all signs point to yes.

[Kish]

Do you know how Chaotic Good deals with tyrants?

In an individual manner, depending on the specific Chaotic Good character.


Also, I think http://easydamus.com/alignment.html says that Chaotic alignments are about oneself.
Really? Some random person on the Internet agrees with your misconception that every Chaotic Good character should be expected to act exactly like yours? Shocking!

[hamishspence]

Really? Some random person on the Internet agrees with your misconception that every Chaotic Good character should be expected to act exactly like yours? Shocking!

It's a massive compilation of alignment-related material throughout the editions (plus some Palladium material).

While it's still a "fan-made alignment system" it is very heavy on content made by official WoTC and TSR writers.

[Kish]

*clicks on link* Ah. A lot of this is taken from the Player's Handbook, I see.

No separation markers between "published in a WotC book" and "written by me right now."

...Also, I'm not even finding what MarkusWolfe said it said.