So you have infinite power points...

[AmberVael]

So, assume you're a level 20 psion, with no prestige classes. You might have picked up some of the more interesting feats for a psion to have (like Midnight Augmentation and Psycarnum Infusion, not to mention the essentia to use them), but otherwise, you're pretty much just a level 20 manifester.

However, you have infinite power points. Maybe you used the Bestow Power trick, or something else. Either way, you can manifest as much as you want.

What would be the most powerful things you could do, with this option?


The purpose of this exercise, at least for me, is to see what problems are brought up by infinite power points. The thought of it seems utterly ludicrous, but I'm honestly having a hard time pinpointing anything absurdly broken you could do, at least when compared to a 'normal' 20th level manifester or caster.

A decent psion at this level is going to have well over 460 power points already, which means that augmenting all powers to full in combat is pretty much an option. You might have to be slightly more careful if you're using Schism to get an extra action each round too, but even then that is a lot of power points to toss around.

So where does being unlimited in this regard really get broken? Because I'm sure there is something, I'm just not entirely sure where to look.

[AstralFire]

Well, infinite power points are about the only situation where an elan becomes OP. But even with infinite, it's a suboptimal thing to rely a lot on since it robs you of your swift action next round. As you noted, the action economy becomes a joke, though they're far from the worst abusers on that front now.

[CodeRed]

It's not a completely far-fetched scenario. There is already a way to get infinite power points via the Metamind prestige class. It only advances Psion/Wilder by 5/10 for its levels though.

I've used Psionics quite extensively and I can tell you that most of its cheese isn't nearly as strong as a supremely optimized Wizard's cheese. The power point system keeps you from making your powers too powerful and needing to expend a Psionic focus for Psionic "Metamagic" means you have to do some serious gymnastics to get enough foci to really abuse them. The strength comes in the fact that the Psion can cast effectively lvl 9 Powers all day long maxed out in PP but at the cost of using that same pool for casting lower lvl powers. That's personally why I've always liked Psionics more than the Vancian system, you have a pool of power to draw from, not slots set in stone each day.

Where unlimited PP gets out of control is in that you have no limit per day at all. Anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day. If a Wizard could cast all of his spells all day w/o using any slots of course he'd be broken.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Using the Midnight Augmentation/Psycarnum Infusion/Bestow Power trick, your infinite power points are pretty much limited to out-of-combat situations, such as 'recharging' after a battle or buff sequence. As such, you'd be best served by manifesting a large number of long-duration buffs before you even left your bedroom in the morning.

Otherwise, it just means you can pretty much enter any combat at or close to full strength. Pretty handy, but a series of fights without much time to rest will eventually tap your power.

If you wanted to, you could just keep manifesting Mass Time Hop to travel to the FUTURE. *shrug*

[Flickerdart]

Being able to pump ML/break the ML cap is going to be your top priority; having infinity power points doesn't matter if you can only use 20 at a time.

[AmberVael]

Where unlimited PP gets out of control is in that you have no limit per day at all. Anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day. If a Wizard could cast all of his spells all day w/o using any slots of course he'd be broken.

Why?

That's the question I'm asking in this thread.

It can't be that you can fully augment all your powers all the time in combat, because at the level I'm talking about, you can practically do that already.

Most of the actually interesting psionic buffs either last all day already (like Mind Blank), or are personal only, so I have yet to find a good use involving buffing the entire party constantly, though I suppose I could missing something.

So what does that leave? Utility powers? Which powers are going to be the most problematic, and why?

[AstralFire]

If you're expending around 60 PP/round, which is roughly possible if you're {Scrubbed} the action economy and my memory isn't even more terrible than I thought, you're only getting a maximum of about eight rounds a day like that at level 20. Especially if you throw in temporal acceleration or buffs. I'm not sure I agree that a Psion can -always- nova at 20 to begin with.

[Greenish]

Where unlimited PP gets out of control is in that you have no limit per day at all. Anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day. If a Wizard could cast all of his spells all day w/o using any slots of course he'd be broken.Broken like warlocks, dragonfire adepts, martial adepts, binders, meldshapers…

…fighters.

[AmberVael]

If you're expending around 60 PP/round, which is roughly possible if you're {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} the action economy and my memory isn't even more terrible than I thought, you're only getting a maximum of about eight rounds a day like that at level 20. Especially if you throw in temporal acceleration or buffs. I'm not sure I agree that a Psion can -always- nova at 20 to begin with.

Hmm, I suppose if you're assuming they'll be using quicken power constantly on top of Schism, then that statement becomes a lot less valid, yeah.
I was mostly thinking- with one of those torcs of power preservation, you save a power point per casting (not a lot, but significant over the entire day). Using schism instead of quicken power, at least most of the time, will ensure that you're saving power points even with extra actions (Schism only costs extra power points to use once- Quicken costs +6 power points per casting, so anything you manifest with schism basically has the same effect but costs less).

It helps you keep costs down. Further, it doesn't seem too rash to assume that in some places you won't need fully augmented powers, so you could deduct a little from that too...

But assuming three actions a round and a full buff sequence, I do agree, you'd not get full augmentation even with all those power points.


So essentially, more power points would allow you to reliably get up to three actions per round rather than two.
Assuming you aren't spending your focus on something else.

[Psyren]

One that immediately comes to mind is Linked Twinned Hustle for some bonus move actions. This trick lets you and your psicrystal refocus at the end of each of your turns.

1) Both you and your psicrystal are focused.
2) With your Swift, manifest Twinned Hustle linked to Hustle (expending both focuses - total PP cost 3+3+6 = 12.) - you now have two extra move actions, with a third one coming in the next round. Use the two extra move actions to regain both your focus and your psicrystal's, then take your other actions for the turn as normal (move and standard.)
3) Next round, your linked Hustle goes off. Use your swift again to repeat (2).
You now have 3 bonus move actions (2 from the twinned hustle, and the third one from last round's linked power.) Use two of them to regain your foci again, and you have your standard + 2 move actions. This of course means that you can manifest a standard-action power modified with two more metapsionic feats (any), use your two move actions to regain your foci, and start the cycle over from (1).

This trick allows you to use a metapsionic feat every turn, and double metapsionics every other turn. Or you can just zip around the battlefield or something.

To generate infinite move actions with this, you need some way to either (a) convert move actions to swift actions, or (b) manifest Hustle as a move action. I don't know of either, but maybe someone else does...?

[Ryuuk]

The only problem with the Twin Linked Hustle is that you need a full round action to recover your psicrystal's focus, unless it was ruled that Psionic Meditation also lets you focus your psicrystal as a move.

[Psyren]

The only problem with the Twin Linked Hustle is that you need a full round action to recover your psicrystal's focus, unless it was ruled that Psionic Meditation also lets you focus your psicrystal as a move.

The RAW is conflicting. While it does specify a full-round action in the feat itself, it also says this:


Psionically focusing your psicrystal works just like focusing yourself.

So it would end up a DM call at that point.


Ironically, there is a RAW way around that RAW; Your psicrystal can gain feats by RAW, so have it take Hidden Talent (for a PP reserve) and Psionic Meditation itself. (Boost its Wis to 13 and give it 7 ranks in Concentration via the method of your choice.) Now your Psicrystal can become focused by itself using its own move actions. Share Hustle with it and it can continue to become focused.

The idea behind this second trick is that Psicrystal Containment lets you spend your crystal's focus, but doesn't actually care where that focus came from. In short, you can use the second half of PsiCon (spend your crystal's focus) without having to use the first (spend a full-round action to focus your crystal.)

[Eldariel]

You generate Affinity Field/Synchronity Loop and proceed to do anything infinite times in 3 seconds.

[AmberVael]

You generate Affinity Field/Synchronity Loop and proceed to do anything infinite times in 3 seconds.

Hm yes. Affinity Field abuse could be quite troublesome.
It seems like it shows up a lot in psionics optimization.

[Psyren]

Hm yes. Affinity Field abuse could be quite troublesome.
It seems like it shows up a lot in psionics optimization.

It's just poorly written, and serves no purpose but to enable shenanigans. Ban it, I say.

[Eldariel]

Hm yes. Affinity Field abuse could be quite troublesome.
It seems like it shows up a lot in psionics optimization.

Affinity Field does lots of stupid stuff with anything that grants actions. Well, Synchronity is really bad too, since it's basically a swift action for a standard action (or two with Twin Power; Dominant Ideal Ardent can have all sorts of fun with that not needing Psionic Focus for Metapsionics...).

[Godskook]

Consumptive Field abuse bears mentioning, but that's a niche build that utilizes an already broken spell, so its not really too big of a problem.

On another note, "hard to wear out" and "can't wear out except over *extremely* short time periods" are different enough that a DM would have to work significantly harder to challenge one over the other. In one case, a deadline that prevents recharging will work(Say, 10 hours from now, with events happening a few times intermittently.), while to prevent recharging to full in the second requires having events which prevent even a half hour's rest with enough challenges to force the psion to start rationing.

[megabyter5]

Broken like warlocks, dragonfire adepts, martial adepts, binders, meldshapers…

…fighters.

Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.

With infinite PP, you can manifest over and over and over again, and all combat situations will be handled with death effects. You can, if you so choose, put every living being you come across in a microcosm, because you can augment it enough to completely ignore the HP restriction. It's a good thing you can't augment the size of the AoE, or you could kill everything with one standard action.

[Reynard]

Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.

With infinite PP, you can manifest over and over and over again, and all combat situations will be handled with death effects. You can, if you so choose, put every living being you come across in a microcosm, because you can augment it enough to completely ignore the HP restriction. It's a good thing you can't augment the size of the AoE, or you could kill everything with one standard action.

No, no you couldn't. There is a cap on how much PP you can spend per power.

[AmberVael]

Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.

With infinite PP, you can manifest over and over and over again, and all combat situations will be handled with death effects. You can, if you so choose, put every living being you come across in a microcosm, because you can augment it enough to completely ignore the HP restriction. It's a good thing you can't augment the size of the AoE, or you could kill everything with one standard action.

Even with infinite power points, you can't ignore augment restrictions. Our hypothetical manifester probably wouldn't be able to manifest any power that cost above 21 power points (assuming an orange ioun stone or a similar boost), or 24 if they overchannel.

So the max they could affect with microcosm is 170 hp.
And tons of people will have immunity to compulsions and mind affecting.
And this is something a manifester with limited power points could do anyway.

[Greenish]

Funny, but not a valid argument. Spells and Powers are much more powerful than invocations and the like.Funny, but I recall someone claiming that "anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day". :smallamused:

[Eurus]

You generate Affinity Field/Synchronity Loop and proceed to do anything infinite times in 3 seconds.

Synchronicity was the first thing that came to my mind too. I personally enjoy sharing it with psicrystals (and, in one entertaining case, also a familiar); helps get around the need for Affinity Field and lowers the level that you can do it at.

Lessee, what else can you do? You could have some fun with infinite quintessence. One casting per round, 24 hours a day (finding a way to go without sleep isn't hard), and you could build up quite a stockpile.

Oh, you could walk around spamming Fission every few minutes to make sure there's two of you. Heck, you could even try using it with Mind Switch to make fissioned duplicates of everyone in your party, including your psicrystal. :smallamused:

If you're not using that Complete Psionic nerf, you can keep an army of astral constructs at your beck and call. You can Bestow Power any other psions on your team to recharge them whenever you want. You can use a maximally augmented Temporal Acceleration every single round, just to laugh even more in the face of space-time (and action balance).

Nothing quite as impressive as the synchronicity thing, but plenty of fun options.

[term1nally s1ck]

There are like 5 ways to gain actions for PP in psionics. with infinite power points, you can just spam everything and anything, all within 3s.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... assuming just the XPH (no Complete Psionic nerfs)

Round 1:
Move: Gain Focus (Psionic Meditation)
Swift: Overchanneled Temporal Acceleration for 23 power points (four rounds)
TA Round 1: Focus Psicyrstal (Psicrystal Containment)
TA Round 2: Astral Construct
TA Round 3: Astral Construct
TA Round 4: Astral Construct, Quickened Body Adjustment
Standard: Extended Timeless Body
Astral Constructs beat up on the target.
Round N+1: Repeat Round 1

This is a 'neener neener' build, but pretty much requires infinite power points to pull off.

[randomhero00]

Shift to astral plane (basically gives you 2 or 3 free rounds because of time difference, buff schism etc) go nova...on every single encounter...

But really, its a lot less overpowering than a wizard with infinite spells.

[term1nally s1ck]

Shift to astral plane (basically gives you 2 or 3 free rounds because of time difference, buff schism etc) go nova...on every single encounter...

But really, its a lot less overpowering than a wizard with infinite spells.

Actually, I'd argue against that. an infinite wizard is RIDICULOUS, yes. But he can't do what a Psion can, which is use all of his infinite abilities at once. He's capped by the action limit, while a Psion doesn't have that cap.

[randomhero00]

Actually, I'd argue against that. an infinite wizard is RIDICULOUS, yes. But he can't do what a Psion can, which is use all of his infinite abilities at once. He's capped by the action limit, while a Psion doesn't have that cap.

Never played a psion to high levels. Explain please? All I know about is schism, which doubles his actions.

[term1nally s1ck]

Affinity field, schism, synchronicity, linked power. Just read those 4, and you'll have a rough idea. He can create action loops that provide bonus actions with every iteration. With infinite PP, you can have infinite standard actions (and via the start/complete full-round, infinite full-round actions, and every other action type while you're at it.)

[randomhero00]

I'm AFB

All I have is the SRD. All that has (I think) is Synchronicty. I fail to see how that would help much.

[AstralFire]

Affinity Field and Schism are SRD, Linked Power and Synchronicity are C. Psi. Synchronicity is the real problem here.

[Jack_Simth]

Never played a psion to high levels. Explain please? All I know about is schism, which doubles his actions.
Fission + Affinity Field + Synchronicity (Complete Psionic). Synchronicity is a Personal range 1st level power that (augmented for 3 points) gives you a standard action that you can take whenever. Affinity Field means it gets copied to anyone inside the Affinity Field with you (as it's just a 1st level power).

So you:
1) Temporal Acceleration (TA) as a Swift action for at least 3 rounds
A) Fission as a standard action in round one of the the TA
B) Have your Fissioned Copy manifest Affinity Field, while you do whatever.
C) Have your Fissioned Copy manifest Synchronicity for 3 power points (which gets copied to you), while you do whatever.
2) Use your standard action from Synchronicity to do whatever. Your Fissioned Copy uses Synchronicity to cast Sychronicity again, which gets copied to you. You use your Synchronicity to do whatever. Your Fissioned copy uses Synchronicity to cast Sychronicity again, which gets copied to you....

AKA, as soon as you get a turn, if you have infinite power points as a Psion-20, it's totally possible to blow up everything within range of your highest-level blow stuff up power. Oh yes, and if you manifest Affinity Field as well, you can use teleportation effects to move the pair of you to wherever you want, and blow everything up there, too.

You have trouble with swift-action powers, though.

[term1nally s1ck]

Affinity field lets any level 3 or less power affect all people in the field.

Synchronicity lets you give up your standard to have a standard action at any time before your next turn.

Linked Power lets you add a synchronicity to your synchronicity at the cost of psionic focus...which your psicrystal can be recovering for you with the actions gained from your affinity field.

Yeah. Creative use means you get infinite actions on your first turn, and you can use Timeless Body to be invulnerable when you get bored and feel like letting the wizard do something.

EDIT: See above. Pretty much perfect explanation. I forgot to mention Fission.

EDIT2: Also, they have their own version of Celerity.

[AmberVael]

I think the real problem is abuse of Affinity Field, as it seems to be the source of the infinite loops. Without it, would Synchronicity really be so bad? I mean, I guess it also pretty bad if you use Twin Power with it...

But even making Synchronicity a swift action doesn't seem so bad to me. I mean, by the time you can Quicken it, you could just Quicken another power anyway.

If you were to just use Synchronicity as is, without abusing metapsionics, where would you rate it in terms of power? Still too powerful for an infinite PP psion? Or just really good?


^: Also, the power you're thinking of is Anticipatory Strike. I think it's a little bit better than Celerity (though you can still go LOL MY ACTION FIRST), given that I don't think there is any real way around it taking away your turn (it doesn't daze you, it just takes your turn away, or whatever actions you used).

[Keinnicht]

Psicrystal Containment
Psionic Meditation
Overchannel

Congratulations, you can now start out every combat by manifesting quickened recall death twice. Oh, and then spend your next standard action to manifest recall death. And then use your move action to regain psionic focus. So that next round you can use quickened recall death. And the manifest recall death.

NOTE: Read the feat. Unlike quickened spells, there is technically no limit on how many times you can use a quickened power in one round.

Damage from overchanneling getting to be a problem? Just overchannel again to manifest Twinned True Metabolism, and you now have fast healing 20 for the next 23 minutes.

[tyckspoon]

NOTE: Read the feat. Unlike quickened spells, there is technically no limit on how many times you can use a quickened power in one round.


Erm. This feat?

You can perform another action, even manifest another power, in the same round that you manifest a quickened power. You can manifest only one quickened power per round. A power whose manifesting time is longer than 1 round cannot be quickened.

You can manifest only one quickened power per round. Weird that they didn't just make it a Swift action, tho, since Swift/Immediate actions had been invented by the time of the XPH.. still, it means you can blow your focus on a Quickened power and still have your Swift to Hustle or use an Immediate defense, which is nice.

[Psyren]

Funny, but I recall someone claiming that "anything becomes broken when it becomes unlimited uses per day". :smallamused:

Ba-zing :smallbiggrin:


Actually, I'd argue against that. an infinite wizard is RIDICULOUS, yes. But he can't do what a Psion can, which is use all of his infinite abilities at once. He's capped by the action limit, while a Psion doesn't have that cap.

I read this as "my infinity is bigger than your infinity!"


Affinity Field and Schism are SRD, Linked Power and Synchronicity are C. Psi. Synchronicity is the real problem here.

No, Affinity Field is the problem, trust me.
Have you ever seen that power used in any build outside of TO discussions?

Psyrogue'd by Vael

[Eldariel]

Well, for what it's worth, every Char Ops competition banned Synchronity right off the bat. Take that as you will...

[Eurus]

Well, for what it's worth, every Char Ops competition banned Synchronity right off the bat. Take that as you will...

Yeah, Synch just gets messy when you use it in any way besides the expected. Sharing it with familiars/psicrystals, twinning or quickening it, using it with affinity field or linked power... Affinity Field is messy too, though.

[AmberVael]

Yeah, Synch just gets messy when you use it in any way besides the expected. Sharing it with familiars/psicrystals, twinning or quickening it, using it with affinity field or linked power... Affinity Field is messy too, though.

I'm not entirely sure why quickening it is seen as such a bad thing. I mean, by the time you can quicken Synchronicity, you can quicken any other power you might want to use, right? It's not like you're getting a standard action from nowhere- you paid for that thing and already can use it elsewhere.

Synchronicity does have the advantage of being a readied action, and not necessarily having to be a power... but... you could already do that with your normal action, with Synchronicity. Is having it twice really going to make such a big difference?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not entirely sure why quickening it is seen as such a bad thing. I mean, by the time you can quicken Synchronicity, you can quicken any other power you might want to use, right?Not necessarily, considering that a Quickened Synchronicity, fully augmented so that you can do whatever with it, only costs 9 power points. So at level 9, that Quickened Synchronicity uses your swift action (and 9 power points), to do something you'd have trouble with otherwise: Spending your maximum number of power points on the second power.

It's not like you're getting a standard action from nowhere- you paid for that thing and already can use it elsewhere.You're paying a small amount compared to what you can do with it, however. Actions are VALUABLE.

Synchronicity does have the advantage of being a readied action, and not necessarily having to be a power... but... you could already do that with your normal action, with Synchronicity. Is having it twice really going to make such a big difference?It can, yes. Will it always do so? No. But it can.

[term1nally s1ck]

I read this as "my infinity is bigger than your infinity!"


It's more an 'I can actually use my infinity powers in one turn, whereas you can only use 2-3 spells in a round.'

[Psyren]

It's more an 'I can actually use my infinity powers in one turn, whereas you can only use 2-3 spells in a round.'

Psions can mess with the action economy better earlier in their careers. Once you hit 9ths though, the Wizard is sitting on his Genesis demiplane with the Fast Time trait and Astral Projecting back to the material so he can adventure, and he's the one {{scrubbed}}ing the action economy. Or chain-gating in Solars to cast spells on his behalf. Not to mention imbuing his familiar with Celerity as an SLA, making them both immune to daze to negate the drawback, shapechanging into a Choker...

It really does become the battle of the infinities then.

[AmberVael]

Hmm. So, lets assume you have just plain synchronicity- no metapsionics, no crazy affinity field abuse, just synchronicity, maybe augmented, but that's it.

Would it still be too powerful for a character with infinite power points to have, given that they could basically trade their action for a readied action with no true penalty?

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm. So, lets assume you have just plain synchronicity- no metapsionics, no crazy affinity field abuse, just synchronicity, maybe augmented, but that's it.

Would it still be too powerful for a character with infinite power points to have, given that they could basically trade their action for a readied action with no true penalty?
Synchronicity, when used as a standard action, and not duplicated or action-cost-reduced in any manner, is a low-value power known. It's got it's uses, but when it's used as intended, it's usually rather sub-par.

[Eurus]

Synchronicity, when used as a standard action, and not duplicated or action-cost-reduced in any manner, is a low-value power known. It's got it's uses, but when it's used as intended, it's usually rather sub-par.

I disagree, in this situation. The fact that it would let the hypothetical character ready his action at all times without specifying the trigger or even what action with no drawback at all, is pretty impressive. Whether he's teleporting out of harm's way, interrupting a spellcaster with a crystal to the face, or just cutting off someone's retreat with a wall of ectoplasm, the ability to react like that is pretty impressive. You can manifest Synchronicity even out of combat, so it's a decent way to avoid traps and ambushes.

[Jack_Simth]

I disagree, in this situation. The fact that it would let the hypothetical character ready his action at all times without specifying the trigger or even what action with no drawback at all, is pretty impressive. Whether he's teleporting out of harm's way, interrupting a spellcaster with a crystal to the face, or just cutting off someone's retreat with a wall of ectoplasm, the ability to react like that is pretty impressive. You can manifest Synchronicity even out of combat, so it's a decent way to avoid traps and ambushes.

It has a one-round duration. You're spending 3 power points per round that you'll maybe need. If you Extend it, Persist it, or similar, then it's potentially worthwhile out of battle... in battle, yeah, it can be useful... but it operates as a readied action, which means it also slows down your initiative and reduces your total action rate even if you do use it (to just before the person you interrupt). It has it's place... but it's not that great.

[Galsiah]

On another way infinite PP could be broken, be a shaper. Now use True Creation to make adamatine or something similarly awesome. Make as much as you want, you have infinite PP (though the XP cost could start to hurt after a while, unless you make a bunch of iron or something). Now use Greater Psionic Fabricate to make, well, anything you so please that can be made from metal. As a Psion, making a Craft check should be no problem, with your huge Intelligence and all. Make a castle with siege weapons or something. Heck, make a giant sword for gits and shiggles. I'm sure someone can think of better ways to abuse this than giant adamatine swords or castles, but you get the idea.

[balistafreak]

I'm sure someone can think of better ways to abuse this than giant adamatine swords or castles, but you get the idea.

Adamantine drills.

You have infinite PP. Pierce the heavens.:smallcool: