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Heliomance
2010-11-29, 12:02 PM
I'm currently DMing my first ever campaign. Unfortunately, I let one of my players play a Beguiler, and it's a fairly construct heavy campaign. While there have been times she's shone - for example, persuading a mole for the BBEG that she was his best friend and getting him to confess - she's feeling quite useless in combat. Over half of the combats so far have been against constructs, I think, and one of the ones that wasn't was against monstrous spiders. Admittedly it's a low combat campaign, averaging I think at slightly less than one fight per session, but still.

What do I do? I don't want to punish her for playing a Beguiler - especially as I suggested it in the first place as suiting her perfectly. And yet the plot calls for constructs. Halp!

AmberVael
2010-11-29, 12:07 PM
Use Living Constructs? I don't know why the plot calls for constructs, but if you could use something like Warforged, they'd be affected by enchantment spells.

Alternately, you could encourage her to focus on some of her illusions, as they should work against constructs. You can't use Phantasms, but you CAN use figments and such.

Gorgondantess
2010-11-29, 12:09 PM
A beguiler can be useful against all foes at all levels, to put it simply. A well placed silent image is a very potent device... and it works just as well against a lich as it does against an iron golem as it does against some big dumb stupid human fighter.

Incanur
2010-11-29, 12:12 PM
Doesn't glitterdust technically blind constructs and undead? Strange but effective.

Heliomance
2010-11-29, 12:16 PM
If any of my players are reading this, don't open this. No, really, it has huge campaign spoilers.
Seriously, don't look. The BBEG is a construct specialist. He's been making artificial replicas of people for blackmail purposes, and his biggest combat tricks and most loyal underlings are all constructs. He's a homebrew class I wrote that gets to make some rather powerful and extranet versatile constructs, it's his entire schtick. He's got some propaganda going on to make everyone think he' a voodoo practitioner and is animating bodies or something, but it's all constructs.

Frosty
2010-11-29, 12:20 PM
Assuming most constructs don't have a sexy Will save, Slow is not mind-affecting and will help against many constructs.

Also, use Haste on party or Displacement, or Improved Invisibility, etc etc.

Taking the proper Advanced Learning spells are also important. Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation is good. Heroism is also good.

AmberVael
2010-11-29, 12:26 PM
If any of my players are reading this, don't open this. No, really, it has huge campaign spoilers.
Seriously, don't look. The BBEG is a construct specialist. He's been making artificial replicas of people for blackmail purposes, and his biggest combat tricks and most loyal underlings are all constructs. He's a homebrew class I wrote that gets to make some rather powerful and extranet versatile constructs, it's his entire schtick. He's got some propaganda going on to make everyone think he' a voodoo practitioner and is animating bodies or something, but it's all constructs.

So Living Constructs would be just fine with that explanation. In fact, he could do even MORE evil things with constructs that seemed much more human, which is what you could explain it as.

I mean, if people think he's a voodoo person, and he learns how to make things that really look like living bodies... yeah, that seems like it fits pretty well to me.

Incanur
2010-11-29, 12:30 PM
Yeah, between slow and glitterdust, construct should be fairly screwed. A beguiler could probably ping a blind, slowed construct to death with a crossbow.

Duke of URL
2010-11-29, 12:33 PM
Use Magic Device + wands/scrolls.

Seriously, isn't that standard practice for a Beguiler in the first place?

I mean a Beguiler is little more than a Rogue who trades Sneak Attack, BAB and some skill points (and trades good saves) for full spellcasting, albeit from a limited list. The same types of tricks Rogues use to deal with critical-immune foes are going to work for Beguilers, too.

Vladislav
2010-11-29, 12:33 PM
Just looking at the low levels, Beguiler also has Dispel Magic and Spider Climb on his spell list. I'm sure you can think of traps or other challenges that can be overcome using those spells. Party dumped into a pit with smooth walls, maybe? Need to scale a chimney? Magical wards that need to be removed?

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-29, 12:33 PM
Constructs tend to have a pretty high CR. Can't he Shadow Evocation them to death yet?

Heliomance
2010-11-29, 12:36 PM
Works for the humaniform ones, I think I might actually rule that making them humaniform automatically gives the Living Construct subtype. When he gets serious about killing someone though, his heavy combat constructs don't look like humans. Screw subtlety, make them better at killing. The players are gong to run into one next session, I really hope they run. Doesn't make as much sense for them to have Living Constrct.

Eldariel
2010-11-29, 02:38 PM
Unintelligent Constructs can't deal with Illusions. At all. For all intents and purposes, they have no means to tell apart Illusions from reality. So...yeah, make illusionary cages or some such. And yeah, Glitterdust and Slow are really, really good offensive spells that work on Constructs. Legion of Sentinels definitely deals a lot of damage.

And buffs too. Haste is excellent, alongside Displacement, Blur, Greater Invisibility and so on. Solid Fog is as good against Constructs as anything else; often even better since they can't just Dispel it usually. And of course, Dispels can sometimes have their uses.


Really, what more could she want? She has everything she needs right in her toolbox. Constructs are no more special than anything else for a Beguiler; you just have to Beguile them with different tools. Instead of dominating their mind, shape their surroundings so their perception betrays them. Empower your allies to defeat them more safely.

Further, she could learn some UMD and use Wands of Grease/Web/some such. Teleports work too. Orbs too, if you identify certain Construct weaknesses; Lesser Orb of Electricitiy for example does nasty stuff to Iron Golems. There's always Wand of Polymorph; suddenly you REALLY have a hardcore buff in your hand to make your warriors Hydras or Remorhazes or some such. And Advanced Learning could be used to pick up some ally generation spells (there's always Simulacrum, though it's a bit too good...).

It all depends on the levels but there's lots of options. Lots of good options depending on the details of each particular Construct (and for that, Beguilers have great Knowledge: Arcane, right up there with Wizards for the best in the game).

nedz
2010-11-29, 03:07 PM
Frankly: this is a problem for your player to solve.
Nothing wrong with you suggesting a few options mind.

Fixing a PC takes resources (I'm thinking levels/cash) so:

You could chuck in a few side quests, just to spice things up with a little variety.

Or maybe your BBEG has co-opted some non construct allies who have to be dealt with.

By the time they back to fighting the robots the Beguiler should be OK.

the clumsy bard
2010-11-29, 03:38 PM
Beguilers also have enchantment spells

They don't work against constructs

They do however work against other people that the beguiler can dominate or charm into being his good friend and bodyguards.

Might just be a case of suggesting some tactics to the player. Before going off you might want some thralls that can beat down constructs etc...

Quietus
2010-11-29, 03:52 PM
Or maybe your BBEG has co-opted some non construct allies who have to be dealt with.

This is what I'd go with. Sure, the BBEG's directly-controlled minions are constructs.. but let's say, where's he getting the materials from? Illithids get their slaves to produce X materials, and in return they get Y benefit, or something to that effect. Maybe a group of Dwarves, or Kobolds, who've been mining just the right kind of metal, and the BBEG is paying them off. These miners sent combatant individuals to protect the shipment (and the payment), and they certainly aren't immune to mind-affecting stuff.

Thurbane
2010-11-29, 08:04 PM
A beguiler can be useful against all foes at all levels, to put it simply. A well placed silent image is a very potent device... and it works just as well against a lich as it does against an iron golem as it does against some big dumb stupid human fighter.
Indeed.

This topic pops up fairly often, and my default answer is that beguiler's are far from useless against mindless enemies. A whole chunk of their spell list is just as effective against mindless undead and constructs as it is against anyone else (Giltterdust, Solid Fog, Legion of Sentinels, Slow, illusions etc.).

Not to mention having UMD as a class skill, and items like Eternal Wands, Robe of Mysterious Conjuration and the Raiment of the Four.

Heliomance
2010-11-29, 08:07 PM
They're level 5 at the moment. As a whole, the campaign is fairly low loot. I recently gave them a loot dump that got them up to WBL, but that was the first loot they'd got at all. Certainly they haven't had access to a magic mart. That could change fairly soon though, depending on how willing they are to brave the dangers of Faerie...

HunterOfJello
2010-11-29, 08:48 PM
Playing a beguiler requires a good solid knowledge of all of the class' spells and lots of creativity to be effective. If the player voices concerns that they aren't happy with the class, then maybe they should reroll a new character or recreate the character as a bard.

The beguiler class isn't for everyone, I've played it in sessions before and still have very mixed feelings about it. However, it can definitely be effective in the campaign from the information you've given.

randomhero00
2010-11-29, 09:00 PM
Pretty simple. Tell him to reroll, sorry that doesn't fit my campaign. Or rearange your campaign to fit it. For instance, create a homebrew feat that's only for beguilers that lets all their abilities work on constructs.

Heliomance
2010-11-29, 09:59 PM
Pretty simple. Tell him to reroll, sorry that doesn't fit my campaign.

You missed the bit where I recommended the class to the player as fitting her disposition perfectly. Recommending a class and then saying she can't use it is a bit of a **** move, don't you think?

Thurbane
2010-11-29, 10:13 PM
If there isn't a "magic mart" for the character to pick up any of the gear I suggested above, maybe drop some of the less expensive options in as loot, or used by an opponent...

Has the character got a decent UMD score? If so, scrolls are a relatively cheap option.

dextercorvia
2010-11-29, 11:00 PM
Honestly, I agree with the others. There are a lot of options for a Beguiler in combat and out, regardless of the foe. If the player is hung up on Beguiler=mindcontrol, they are missing out on easily 75% of the class.

mucat
2010-11-30, 12:55 AM
They're level 5 at the moment. As a whole, the campaign is fairly low loot. I recently gave them a loot dump that got them up to WBL, but that was the first loot they'd got at all. Certainly they haven't had access to a magic mart. That could change fairly soon though, depending on how willing they are to brave the dangers of Faerie...

She may be on the verge of solving these problems, then. In my experience, Beguilers really come into their own at level 6, when they first get access to third-level spells. Haste, Slow, Legion of Sentinels, Invisibility Sphere...along with her existing powerhouse spells like Glitterdust, and the usual array of illusions...she should have no trouble feeling useful against constructs. It's also the point where spells-per-day stops feeling like such a severe constraint. (And then, whenever she meets living sapients, she can have fun taking the mind-affecting spells for a spin!)

So for just one more level, see if you can throw her more living foes than usual...whether because the bad guy uses slaves or minions alongside his constructs, or because there are other "sides" involved than just the PCs and the main BBEG's forces. When she hits Level 6, if she can't have fun with a beguiler, then maybe it really doesn't suit her play style.

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 02:14 AM
You missed the bit where I recommended the class to the player as fitting her disposition perfectly. Recommending a class and then saying she can't use it is a bit of a **** move, don't you think?

Yeah, the answer is:
- Obscuring Mist
- Silent Image
- Fog Cloud
- Glitterdust
- Minor Image

And buffs like Invisibility and Blur. She may not literally swim in options but they are there. Best part is, Images in particular are quite open-ended as to use them so it should be rather interesting regardless.

Next level she gets Haste, Slow and Legion of Sentinels which will further expand her options vastly, each giving a different new effect that works fine with Undead; potent, offensive buff spell, action denial debuff and damage. So yeah, if she gets a Wand of Grease at some point too, I think she'll be good to go.