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WarKitty
2010-11-29, 12:36 PM
Have a question for you all. We have a player that seems to have...improbable die rolls. Like, he has 5 high stats and one low one. Or he never seems to roll ones. Rolls crit chances a lot and they always seem to confirm, and always seems to roll near-max damage. It's at the point where it's a bit suspicious, but there's no hard evidence. How would you proceed here?

Vladislav
2010-11-29, 12:37 PM
Start observing that player very carefully.

AstralFire
2010-11-29, 12:38 PM
Replace dice with a graphing calc.

BRC
2010-11-29, 12:38 PM
Have a question for you all. We have a player that seems to have...improbable die rolls. Like, he has 5 high stats and one low one. Or he never seems to roll ones. Rolls crit chances a lot and they always seem to confirm, and always seems to roll near-max damage. It's at the point where it's a bit suspicious, but there's no hard evidence. How would you proceed here?
Keep a close eye on how he rolls and see if you can spot him doing anything weird. Check his dice. Institute some table-wide rolling techniques (like using a cup to roll the dice).

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-29, 12:40 PM
Yeah, I'd just pay a lot more attention to them. You might want to check his d20, there are trick d20s out there with 2 20's and no 1's.

Did you roll stats together?

Ailurus
2010-11-29, 12:40 PM
Make sure he always rolls in an environment where people are watching the dice, for one (IE, in the middle of the table, rather than rolling behind some books and having him say 'I got an 18!' )

If it continues - or you're already doing that - maybe get one of the other players ask him something like "man, I really need to roll high for this. Can I borrow your dice for it, you always seem to roll well when you need to" and see how he responds?

Tvtyrant
2010-11-29, 12:40 PM
I can roll consistent 6's if I roll one at a time; make him roll using your dice and a cup. Seriously, the shaking them in a cup thing is the easiest way to prevent cheating.

AstralFire
2010-11-29, 12:41 PM
Make sure he always rolls in an environment where people are watching the dice, for one (IE, in the middle of the table, rather than rolling behind some books and having him say 'I got an 18!' )

If it continues - or you're already doing that - maybe get one of the other players ask him something like "man, I really need to roll high for this. Can I borrow your dice for it, you always seem to roll well when you need to" and see how he responds?

That seems passive-aggressive to me.

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 12:42 PM
I can roll consistent 6's if I roll one at a time; make him roll using your dice and a cup. Seriously, the shaking them in a cup thing is the easiest way to prevent cheating.

Yeah this is the thing. Several of us know how to "spin" dice so as to come up with what we want. That's what we think is going on, but I don't know how to suggest using a cup or anything without essentially saying "we think you're cheating."

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-29, 12:44 PM
That seems passive-aggressive to me.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm not sure how you'd see it as passive-aggressive...

akma
2010-11-29, 12:45 PM
You could always admit that you think he`s cheating.
And check if his dice are loaded.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-29, 12:45 PM
Yeah this is the thing. Several of us know how to "spin" dice so as to come up with what we want. That's what we think is going on, but I don't know how to suggest using a cup or anything without essentially saying "we think you're cheating."

If others know how to do it, just introduce it as a general "since you all can do this, let's use a cup to avoid the temptation." Then it's not singling anybody out.

AstralFire
2010-11-29, 12:46 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm not sure how you'd see it as passive-aggressive...

Proceed as normal, then innocently pop a confrontational implication.

It doesn't feel tactful to me, just sneaky. The right type of liar and the wrong type of oversensitive will give false pings with it too.

TheMeMan
2010-11-29, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I'd just pay a lot more attention to them. You might want to check his d20, there are trick d20s out there with 2 20's and no 1's.

Did you roll stats together?

Another possibility is that he's using loaded dice. One of my friends has a set of them as a joke, and never uses them. If he always seems to crit, it's a possiblity.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-29, 12:47 PM
Proceed as normal, then innocently pop a confrontational implication.

It doesn't feel tactful to me, just sneaky. The right type of liar and the wrong type of oversensitive will give false pings with it too.

I don't really see how that matters. That's not really the definition of passive-aggressive behavior, either. It's not pathological. It's just a way to possibly figure things out without being direct. Being direct won't get you anywhere, as if he's cheating he's not going to actually admit it.

Dalek-K
2010-11-29, 12:51 PM
I actually do this a lot... If I need to roll high then I end up rolling and if I need to roll low (for roll under table top games) then I roll low... This is usually 85% of the time... I even started using a player's dice that could never roll above a 1 on initiative ... ever... Heck he started using his computer and still rolled 1's on initiative all the time.

So I'm not sure if I'm doing something subconsciously or whatever but i can swear that its not always the player cheating...

alchemyprime
2010-11-29, 12:52 PM
Use a dice boot. It's what I have. It's a wooden box with three small ramps inside, and it lets out into a tray with a lip and felt on the bottom.

We mostly use it when people are trying to sleep and the rolling would wake them, but it's also useful when people bring trick dice, because I just start telling them to use mine (Also, having some fancy dice yourself helps with that. I have some with astrological symbols, classes, races, etc.). The only one with trick dice I don't need to worry about is my brother (Fizzleborp if he's still on the boards. Well, not anymore, he just left for basic. Anyways) as he tends to use them as examples.

Though he knows I've caught him using the Crit die before... (It's all 18s, 19s and 20s :smallannoyed:) It was the kind of campaign it didn't matter much though, and I will let him use it in times of dire need.

| |
|\ |
| /|
|\ ___| (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx4rpjFlDS0&feature=related)
Dice boot. Get one or build one. Actually, it's a really fun woodworking project and really easy to make. Mine took my dad and I only about an hour, then waiting another hour for the glue to set before using it. Good for a lazy Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

BRC
2010-11-29, 12:54 PM
Yeah this is the thing. Several of us know how to "spin" dice so as to come up with what we want. That's what we think is going on, but I don't know how to suggest using a cup or anything without essentially saying "we think you're cheating."
I propose Deception.
The Cast is as follows, The DM, and at least one other player, preferably one who knows how to "Spin" dice and who is NOT the one you are discussing in this thread. Bring more of the group into it.

You begin play as normal, and the Spinner spins the dice a few times. The DM accuses him of cheating. He denies it, the other players support the DM, ect ect.
In the end, the DM says "Here, to keep the game Honest, from now on all rolls will be done using cups". The rest of the group agrees, ect ect.
The result (Rolls are made with Cups) is achieved, however the problem player does not consider themselves targeted. The Spinner (Who was in on it the entire time) is the one who was targeted, and everybody uses Cups in the interest of fairness.

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 12:57 PM
I actually do this a lot... If I need to roll high then I end up rolling and if I need to roll low (for roll under table top games) then I roll low... This is usually 85% of the time... I even started using a player's dice that could never roll above a 1 on initiative ... ever... Heck he started using his computer and still rolled 1's on initiative all the time.

So I'm not sure if I'm doing something subconsciously or whatever but i can swear that its not always the player cheating...

Agreed. It's possible that he's just really lucky, or that he unknowingly got loaded dice (some of the cheap ones are loaded like that). Which is part of why I don't want to raise a fuss.

Totally Guy
2010-11-29, 12:58 PM
Build a really kick ass dice tower. You know the ones, you put the dice in the top, they fall through it and bounce out of a door at the bottom into a small tray.

Present it and say "What a cool dice tower I've made! We should start using it for all our rolls."

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-29, 12:58 PM
I propose Deception.

I love deception.


Agreed. It's possible that he's just really lucky, or that he unknowingly got loaded dice (some of the cheap ones are loaded like that). Which is part of why I don't want to raise a fuss.

Have somebody roll his dice down a vent on "accident?" :smallbiggrin: Just kidding, seriously, just kidding.

togapika
2010-11-29, 01:05 PM
I propose Deception.


I propose Inception!
So you go into his dreams to find out if he is cheating, but then someone gets shot, so you have to go deeper, and along the way you find out someone has deep insecurities regarding cheating, and you get attacked by giant d20's...

Gnaritas
2010-11-29, 01:05 PM
We have an area in the middle of the table where dice are thrown, except the DM's.
Nobody has a problem with this and nobody thinks if we didn't do this someone would cheat.
We just think this is normal. When you play monopoly, do you roll the dice secretly? if so, why?

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 01:06 PM
The dice tower sounds like a good idea, thanks. Especially since we already have issues because we play in a carpeted area, and dice sometimes land so what number is on top depends on which way you're looking at it.

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-29, 01:11 PM
ect ect.

Etc. It's short for et cetera.

Electrohydra
2010-11-29, 01:15 PM
I confirm that some (generally cheap) dice can be biased even if they are not supposed to. I have a d20 that rolls extremes (1, 2, 3, 18, 19, 20) much more often then middle values. (about 2 to 3 times more). I actually did the math for it as a stats problem.

Urpriest
2010-11-29, 01:17 PM
Just vigilance will probably be enough, depending on how sneaky you think he's being. The first game I ran my brother got into a bad habit of cheating on rolls, and once I knew to look out for it it was pretty easy to spot.

Sipex
2010-11-29, 01:17 PM
These boards are interesting, one topic can influence several. Someone posted a "Cheating Player" topic and now a few have popped up within hours.

I'm just posting this observation since WarKitty has already chosen a solution.

Yukitsu
2010-11-29, 01:17 PM
What about players who improbably roll a lot of 1s. :smallsigh:

It's ultimately probably just as disruptive.

Noodles2375
2010-11-29, 01:21 PM
Have a question for you all. We have a player that seems to have...improbable die rolls. Like, he has 5 high stats and one low one. Or he never seems to roll ones. Rolls crit chances a lot and they always seem to confirm, and always seems to roll near-max damage. It's at the point where it's a bit suspicious, but there's no hard evidence. How would you proceed here?

1 - I'd consider using point buy to generate stats in the future. The IRL variance alone can be unfun. No one can fudge point buy :)

2 - I try to have all my players roll die in the open on top of the table. If you aren't doing this already it might be awkward to suggest it. But you're the DM and you can say something like, "if everyone rolls openly it takes care of misreadings or mistaken addition, the game will run smoother".

nedz
2010-11-29, 02:40 PM
Use Elite Array or Points Buy for char gen.

Set up an encounter where they have to roll low; to test the player's reaction.
Anything involving a random table should suffice.

Choco
2010-11-29, 02:51 PM
Set up an encounter where they have to roll low; to test the player's reaction.

Sometimes I think Warhammer 40k mixes things up for this very reason... It would be kinda obvious if you were using a different set of dice when you need to roll high than when you need to roll low :smalltongue:.

On topic though, I would do any/all of the following:

* Inspect his dice when he goes to the bathroom (check for 2 of the highest number in place of the lowest, roll them a few times to check for weighting, check if the number patterns are the same as other dice of that kind, etc).
* Ask him to use someone elses dice and see how he reacts (If you don't want to be confrontational, implement a rule that everyone on the table has to use your dice).
* ALWAYS have him roll in the open, never take his word for a dice roll, implement a rule that if you can't see the roll yourself then he has to reroll it.
* Use a cup for rolling.

Moonlitdreams
2010-11-29, 05:52 PM
I have a player that uses these tiny d6s for rolling damage and stats all the time. All the time, they seem to roll high, but it's impossible for me to watch closer as he sits a few seats away and I don't have very good eyesight... and they are tiny.

Suggestions?

I just thought I would ask since this is on a related topic.

amaranth69
2010-11-29, 06:19 PM
pop-o-matic bubble

Warlawk
2010-11-29, 06:36 PM
What about players who improbably roll a lot of 1s. :smallsigh:

It's ultimately probably just as disruptive.

That's my wife right there! When it comes to rolling stats she is the resident Dice Jesus (Her and our DM's share the title for character gen). Her most recent character rolled 15, 17, 14, 17, 15, 14, all rolled at the table in front of everyone. (yeah yeah, point buy... bottom line, no one in our group really cares, it's just to illustrate this point). But when it comes to combat and important skill checks, she rolls amazingly low a LOT of the time.

My combat dice tend to have performance anxiety. Against mooks I am a whirling death machine of carnage and mayhem. I am death incarnate. When it comes to key major plot battles and BBEGs I completely choke up and every cool thing I try to do backfires. Instead of doing a jumping death from above spin wind ninja Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike of doom... I run up and trip over an imaginary unseen deceased turtle (gogo M.E.R.P. crit fumble tables!) and end up prone in front of the bad guy. It seriously has become the running joke in our group. No fudging of dice or anything of the sort, it just seems to consistently happen.

Here's another consideration though in regards to the post I quoted. Almost every time someone at our table says "Hey you remember that time..." it is in reference to one of our groups many spectacular failures, and almost never about when we just crushed our enemies in super awesome guy fashion. A good hero is often defined by their flaws. A good adventure can follow the same model and be defined by our failures, and overcoming them.

Hey remember that time in 2E the thief blew his use scroll check when casting the super buff spell on your minotaur and he ended up slowed, shrunk and weakened? REVENGE OF THE MINI-TAUR! It was great, and the group laughs about it to this day.

Hey Remember that time H (My wife) spent days casing that rich guys house to steal that sword he had mounted on his wall? It was a work of art, a truly magnificent piece of hardware. She beat herself up, falling off of two walls and triggering a trap due to bad dice rolls. Turns out the sword really was a piece of art. Not a weapon, just a very amazingly made art/replica blade that would break the first time used in combat.

Just a couple of examples off the top of my head that get mentioned often even though they happened a good many years ago, and always get a chuckle and some good natured heckling of the victim.

Istari
2010-11-29, 06:46 PM
Our group does most of our roles in a bowl, bounces the dice around alot and makes it more random, mainly because otherwise, we have to roll on the floor or books.

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 07:05 PM
Sometimes I think Warhammer 40k mixes things up for this very reason... It would be kinda obvious if you were using a different set of dice when you need to roll high than when you need to roll low :smalltongue:.

On topic though, I would do any/all of the following:

* Inspect his dice when he goes to the bathroom (check for 2 of the highest number in place of the lowest, roll them a few times to check for weighting, check if the number patterns are the same as other dice of that kind, etc).
* Ask him to use someone elses dice and see how he reacts (If you don't want to be confrontational, implement a rule that everyone on the table has to use your dice).
* ALWAYS have him roll in the open, never take his word for a dice roll, implement a rule that if you can't see the roll yourself then he has to reroll it.
* Use a cup for rolling.

Unfortunately, while about three of the players suspect the guy, the DM does not. So it might be difficult to get new rules implemented.

FMArthur
2010-11-29, 07:11 PM
My best friends's only complete set of dice are totally transparent, with white writing. They are impossible to read from anywhere more than a foot away, making them kind of annoying to use when shared, but funnily enough, he doesn't seem to cheat with them. They just look cool and he loves them for it. I suppose he could be cheating but is careful with his number distribution, but he really isn't the type to do so. I just worry about running into a real cheater with similar dice. :smallconfused:

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-11-29, 07:13 PM
pop-o-matic bubble

This.

In all seriousness though, if the OP isn't the DM, and most of the players suspect the guy, just start using the various proposed rules, and mention you're doing so. If the suspected cheater is the only one not doing it, it'll look pretty suspicious.

FMArthur
2010-11-29, 07:15 PM
This.

In all seriousness though, if the OP isn't the DM, and most of the players suspect the guy, just start using the various proposed rules, and mention you're doing so. If the suspected cheater is the only one not doing it, it'll look pretty suspicious.

If most of the other players suspect the guy, he already is looking suspicious. He probably doesn't even care about suspicion as long as there is no concrete evidence or direct witness of wrongdoing.

MrRigger
2010-11-29, 07:21 PM
That's my wife right there! When it comes to rolling stats she is the resident Dice Jesus (Her and our DM's share the title for character gen). Her most recent character rolled 15, 17, 14, 17, 15, 14, all rolled at the table in front of everyone. (yeah yeah, point buy... bottom line, no one in our group really cares, it's just to illustrate this point). But when it comes to combat and important skill checks, she rolls amazingly low a LOT of the time.

Regarding amazing dice rolls for character generation, I have a friend who had better starting stats than I have ever seen. The method of rolling stats our group uses is 4d6 drop the lowest, re-rolling 1s and 2s (as my DM sees PCs as exceptional individuals and tends to misunderstand the CR system), and if you get an 18, you roll another d6 and add that result to the stat (allowing for stats above 18 without race adjustment at character creation). Rolling on the table, in front of everyone, he rolled up stats of 23, 21, 20, 17, 16, and 14 for his human psion. Pity that game only lasted one session.

MrRigger

Gamer Girl
2010-11-29, 07:22 PM
1.Watch his rolls. Should you see something odd or funny, point it out. ''Wow, Fred you confirmed the crit roll vs. that dragon with a three?!?" or ''You rolled a 5, how did you hit?" Most DM's are happy to have the help.

2.Figure out his character sheet. Easy enough if you know the rules. If he hits a AC 20 and rolls a 10, he must have +10 bonus to hit. And so if that suddenly changes, he rolls a 10 but suddenly hits AC 25 something might be up. Don't forget to watch for buffs and such though...

3.Mention this to the Dm, of course.

4.If it's really bad...he does like seven crits and encounter, for like two encounters in a row. Or he never fails a saving throw. Or he never misses. You might just want to call him out right there. There is no point in playing a game with someone who is cheating. To put it simply, you will have no fun. It's almost impossible to sit there, while things effect your character...yet the cheater always just happily dances around the table.

Sure, you can get a couple good rolls, but not all the time. And if you get good ones...you will get bad ones.


5.As a DM. Should I suspect someone of cheating, ('Oh, um, that is my 25th crit in a row vs the next dragon') I will simply ignore whatever they did. Or more accurately just adjust things, they do 20 points of damage..from the 20 temporary hit points and such. Generally, such cheaters expect a big pay off. When they jump into melee and make two crits they want to kill the monster and get a medal and a parade. So when you say 'you make a slight cut in the monsters shoulder' they will melt down fairly quick.

nedz
2010-11-29, 07:22 PM
I had assumed that the OP was the DM, my bad.

The best way of dealing with problem players is peer pressure from the other players. I am not going to tell you haw to handle this because I do not know the group dynamics involved, but one of you will know how to handle this I'm sure.

togapika
2010-11-29, 07:23 PM
What advice would you give to a player who cheats, but is trying to break the habit? Some one who just does it as a sort of reflex.

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 07:25 PM
What advice would you give to a player who cheats, but is trying to break the habit? Some one who just does it as a sort of reflex.

Honestly, try some of the tricks in this thread. Get yourself a rolling cup or dice tower. If you don't want to admit it to people, get one of those fancy dice towers that look like castles and justify it by the cool factor.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-11-29, 07:26 PM
If most of the other players suspect the guy, he already is looking suspicious. He probably doesn't even care about suspicion as long as there is no concrete evidence or direct witness of wrongdoing.

Apparently not enough though, since the DM apparently isn't suspicious yet. A DM often has better things to do (checking notes, planning, etc.) than paying attention to whether players are rolling an unusual number of 20s, but even the most clueless DM would notice if everyone started rolling into a cup except for one player.

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 09:42 PM
Another issue with the same player:

The guy has a way of declaring what he's going to do, but he speaks in a fairly quiet tone of voice. Now, we have seven players, and the person speaking quietly is not likely to be heard. Last encounter when something like this:

I look up the helmet...I pick it up and examine it...I'm putting it on...I'm putting the helmet on!

And then we're all wondering what just happened, because none of us heard him say he's picking it up because we were busy doing other things. In that case, those of us with spellcraft had been talking to the DM about the item's exact properties.

Gamer Girl
2010-11-29, 10:14 PM
Another issue with the same player:

The guy has a way of declaring what he's going to do, but he speaks in a fairly quiet tone of voice. Now, we have seven players, and the person speaking quietly is not likely to be heard. Last encounter when something like this:

I look up the helmet...I pick it up and examine it...I'm putting it on...I'm putting the helmet on!

And then we're all wondering what just happened, because none of us heard him say he's picking it up because we were busy doing other things. In that case, those of us with spellcraft had been talking to the DM about the item's exact properties.


Well, ask the player to speak up. At the very least the DM must hear what he is doing.


But your group might have a bigger group problem. You might need set rules that everyone agrees to ahead of time.

A chaotic group is like:

DM:You see a wooden chest.
Player 1-"I open it''
Player 2-"I look for traps"
Player 3-"I cast detect magic"
Player 4-"I do a search check"
Player 5-"I open it"

A much more organized group has set rules. For example, the rogue will always check for traps first or the fighter will always take point.

But your point is more of a DM point. The DM is the one that need to speak up and say 'player 5, you can't do that...player 2 already picked up the helm'.

WarKitty
2010-11-29, 10:40 PM
Well, ask the player to speak up. At the very least the DM must hear what he is doing.


But your group might have a bigger group problem. You might need set rules that everyone agrees to ahead of time.

A chaotic group is like:

DM:You see a wooden chest.
Player 1-"I open it''
Player 2-"I look for traps"
Player 3-"I cast detect magic"
Player 4-"I do a search check"
Player 5-"I open it"

A much more organized group has set rules. For example, the rogue will always check for traps first or the fighter will always take point.

But your point is more of a DM point. The DM is the one that need to speak up and say 'player 5, you can't do that...player 2 already picked up the helm'.

Yeah...I'm trying to think of how to approach him with this. Especially since *technically* no one else had picked up the helm...but there were three people clustered around looking at it who would certainly not have allowed someone to reach in and grab it. Or the time he somehow slipped past both of the barbarians to grab a magic item that they were standing directly in front of.

Gamer Girl
2010-11-29, 10:51 PM
Yeah...I'm trying to think of how to approach him with this.

Sneaky Player Trick 1-Simply distract him. When ever you think he might do something, jump up and distract him. That way he does not get the chance to do anything else.

It works best, if you can come up with a set plan. Something like 'lets stay on guard while they look through the treasure' (Lets have fun while the egg heads work).

Sneaky Player Trick 2-Become the announcer. State 'Joe and Amy are looking at the helm while me and problem player stand over by the door'. To semi-officially let all the players know what is going on.

Ragitsu
2010-11-29, 10:55 PM
A chaotic group is like:

DM:You see a wooden chest.
Player 1-"I open it''
Player 2-"I look for traps"
Player 3-"I cast detect magic"
Player 4-"I do a search check"
Player 5-"I open it"

A much more organized group has set rules. For example, the rogue will always check for traps first or the fighter will always take point.

The two are not always mutually exclusive. You could, for instance, have organized players that are (at least partially) roleplaying impulsive/curious characters.

Otherworld Odd
2010-11-30, 12:38 AM
Sit down with him and have a talk. A little maturity in a situation like this goes a long way, and I'm sure as adults you two can sit down together and discuss it like adults. There's no reasons to trick him or accuse him of anything. Merely sit down with him, and talk to him about it. Ask to test his dice. Ask for him to use a set of your dice if you want. Don't talk to him in front of everyone else so he gets embarrassed or lies to protect his rep.

It's really as easy as that.

Kami2awa
2010-11-30, 02:14 PM
My best friends's only complete set of dice are totally transparent, with white writing. They are impossible to read from anywhere more than a foot away, making them kind of annoying to use when shared, but funnily enough, he doesn't seem to cheat with them. They just look cool and he loves them for it. I suppose he could be cheating but is careful with his number distribution, but he really isn't the type to do so. I just worry about running into a real cheater with similar dice. :smallconfused:

You can be fairly certain, however, that transparent dice have no weights inside.

Gamer Girl
2010-11-30, 02:26 PM
The two are not always mutually exclusive. You could, for instance, have organized players that are (at least partially) roleplaying impulsive/curious characters.


This is one of the 'game vs. reality things'. Sure you could have a group of impulsive/curious characters, but that does not work out so well for the game.

To have five characters all doing conflicting things at every step of the game will get you no where. This is where the players will have to say screaming loudly and pushing others out of the way so my character can act first is not working.

randomhero00
2010-11-30, 02:31 PM
I'm actually in the camp of, "Who cares?" Is him being lucky really screwing up your game? Its a cooperative game. I'm happy when my teammates are powerful. I don't like cheating mind you, but if he's a friend I'm not sure I'd risk it.

Plus, it really could just be luck. I've had lucky streaks that lasted several game sessions and must have looked really suspicious (the DM even moved over closer to me at the table). But I wasn't cheating.

Really, its his game too. If he continues to get super lucky rolls just let the monsters get really lucky rolls too. :smallbiggrin:

kyoryu
2010-11-30, 02:34 PM
Another issue with the same player:

The guy has a way of declaring what he's going to do, but he speaks in a fairly quiet tone of voice. Now, we have seven players, and the person speaking quietly is not likely to be heard. Last encounter when something like this:

I look up the helmet...I pick it up and examine it...I'm putting it on...I'm putting the helmet on!

And then we're all wondering what just happened, because none of us heard him say he's picking it up because we were busy doing other things. In that case, those of us with spellcraft had been talking to the DM about the item's exact properties.

As a DM, I'd look at the probably intent of the action.

If the character is simply acting, in-character, impulsively, then I'd probably let it go.

It sounds like the player is using the mumbling to meta-game, and acquire the helmet without alerting the group to what's going on. I'd seriously disallow that. Also, if the other group members were checking out the item (talking to the DM about it), it's reasonable to assume that they're in close proximity to the helm, and would get a chance to react if the character tried to grab it from under their noses.

Frankly, it sounds like this player is basically a cheat, and is probably engaging in this type of behavior in other areas as well.

WarKitty
2010-11-30, 02:54 PM
I'm actually in the camp of, "Who cares?" Is him being lucky really screwing up your game? Its a cooperative game. I'm happy when my teammates are powerful. I don't like cheating mind you, but if he's a friend I'm not sure I'd risk it.

Plus, it really could just be luck. I've had lucky streaks that lasted several game sessions and must have looked really suspicious (the DM even moved over closer to me at the table). But I wasn't cheating.

Really, its his game too. If he continues to get super lucky rolls just let the monsters get really lucky rolls too. :smallbiggrin:

It's frustrating people because he's making other players feel like they're useless. The DM ends up ramping up encounters to deal with him, which makes a couple other members of the party ineffective.


As a DM, I'd look at the probably intent of the action.

If the character is simply acting, in-character, impulsively, then I'd probably let it go.

It sounds like the player is using the mumbling to meta-game, and acquire the helmet without alerting the group to what's going on. I'd seriously disallow that. Also, if the other group members were checking out the item (talking to the DM about it), it's reasonable to assume that they're in close proximity to the helm, and would get a chance to react if the character tried to grab it from under their noses.

Frankly, it sounds like this player is basically a cheat, and is probably engaging in this type of behavior in other areas as well.

I'm not sure if it's being done intentionally or not. The frustration is more that the rest of the players are feeling like we're losing control of our own characters, because we don't get any chance to respond until it's over. Mind, he is trying to play a bit of a sneaky deceptive character, but he's doing things that shouldn't be possible, like rolling a stealth check to walk between a couple of characters (he would have to pass through another PC's square to do this) and pick up an item because "we were distracted by the conversation with the other guy."

Sipex
2010-11-30, 02:56 PM
This would be the point where the DM is supposed to interject and go "Not on your fellow players, or at least, not this often."

ericgrau
2010-11-30, 02:57 PM
Make sure his dice actually roll rather than fall, as this tends to repeat the same result as before. Ask for rerolls if he "accidentally forgets" too often.


Mind, he is trying to play a bit of a sneaky deceptive character, but he's doing things that shouldn't be possible, like rolling a stealth check to walk between a couple of characters (he would have to pass through another PC's square to do this) and pick up an item because "we were distracted by the conversation with the other guy."

Two options for this:
1. Learn the rules better. This isn't allowed. He needs cover or concealment or he can't hide. Distraction does provide others with a perception penalty but no matter how high the stealth or how low the perception he can't hide w/o cover or concealment. Period.

2. Use common sense. If it seems impossible, it probably is. Just say no, regardless of the rules.

randomhero00
2010-11-30, 02:57 PM
It's frustrating people because he's making other players feel like they're useless. The DM ends up ramping up encounters to deal with him, which makes a couple other members of the party ineffective.



I'm not sure if it's being done intentionally or not. The frustration is more that the rest of the players are feeling like we're losing control of our own characters, because we don't get any chance to respond until it's over. Mind, he is trying to play a bit of a sneaky deceptive character, but he's doing things that shouldn't be possible, like rolling a stealth check to walk between a couple of characters (he would have to pass through another PC's square to do this) and pick up an item because "we were distracted by the conversation with the other guy."
Well that's totally different. Call him out. Check his dice. Try to be polite as possible and say nothing personal but it seems odd.

If that doesn't work, give each party member except for him a personal artifact that bumps their power so they are all on the same level.

WarKitty
2010-11-30, 02:59 PM
This would be the point where the DM is supposed to interject and go "Not on your fellow players, or at least, not this often."


Yeah, honestly, I'm not sure the DM has noticed and I would like a specific solution to suggest to the DM when I go to him. We specifically don't want to have to take turns talking, because there is a lot of cooperative stuff that goes on. Two of us actually have something worked out where he tries stupid stuff and I stop him midway before it gets too bad. But we need to get a chance to react to what he's doing.

kyoryu
2010-11-30, 03:12 PM
Yeah, honestly, I'm not sure the DM has noticed and I would like a specific solution to suggest to the DM when I go to him. We specifically don't want to have to take turns talking, because there is a lot of cooperative stuff that goes on. Two of us actually have something worked out where he tries stupid stuff and I stop him midway before it gets too bad. But we need to get a chance to react to what he's doing.

Here's a rule. Stuff like "stealth check to go between two players" is resolved like combat. Break out the grid, he has to follow the rules.

If he's going to pull character abilities on the other PCs, they get to do the same back to him.

One thing to point out is that announcing an action does not indicate that the action was performed - it merely announces the *intent* to perform the action. The DM is the final arbiter of what *actually* happens. It's probably worth bringing this up with the DM, and let him know that you want a chance to respond in these scenarios.

Also, it's perfectly reasonable for the characters to notice that all the shinies keep disappearing, and when it becomes obvious where they went, tell the thief to leave in peace, or in pieces - his choice.

This is why stealing from the party is a bad idea - there's an implicit contract of "we won't kick you out or kill you" that removes the consequences from theft, basically tying the hands of the players who are getting stolen from. Party thieves abuse this contract.

And, I understand that you're not sure he's doing this stuff on purpose - but, combined with the sketchy dice rolls, Occam's Razor seems to be pointing more and more in that direction.

The Big Dice
2010-11-30, 03:13 PM
I've seen a player who would roll 3 20sin a row in one combat. During the nexty fight, he'd swap dice with me (who had consistently rolled nothing above a 7 all night) and score two confirmed crits in the same turn.

Some people are just naturally lucky with the dice. I've seen one guy consistently roll multiple 10s in L5R, and another who would jinx you without fail every time he'd say "anything over a 2 and you've got it" or similar.

Not everyone who rolls well is cheating. Some people are just favoured by the Dice Gods. And oddly0 enough, those kind of people are often favoured by the gods of one type of dice more than the gods of another.

Coidzor
2010-11-30, 04:46 PM
Yeah this is the thing. Several of us know how to "spin" dice so as to come up with what we want. That's what we think is going on, but I don't know how to suggest using a cup or anything without essentially saying "we think you're cheating."

You just said that several of you have the skill necessary to do this. You don't even have to single him out. You just need to have several people get together and suggest this change and impress upon the DM how they want to try it out. So unless he's an old school DM of the type that thinks he's lord of the dinner table, you should be able to find some means of convincing him to take up the challenge.

And if he really has to compensate for the other guy's good rolls so much that it's causing issues with the rest of the players, then it being offered to him in that context, or even freaking Random.org or something, he should be amicable enough to something to be convinced by the group of you.


Another issue with the same player:

The guy has a way of declaring what he's going to do, but he speaks in a fairly quiet tone of voice. Now, we have seven players, and the person speaking quietly is not likely to be heard. Last encounter when something like this:

I look up the helmet...I pick it up and examine it...I'm putting it on...I'm putting the helmet on!

And then we're all wondering what just happened, because none of us heard him say he's picking it up because we were busy doing other things. In that case, those of us with spellcraft had been talking to the DM about the item's exact properties.

Sounds like he's doing it on purpose then if he knows the DM and the rest of the players are distracted with other things. Possibly he's doing it to be an active ***. Possibly he's just an *** unintentionally. The point is, he's making an *** of himself.

Now as to how to deal with it... Maybe a gag-rule while the DM is involved in conversation with someone else. Maybe a "don't be a *********" rule.


It's frustrating people because he's making other players feel like they're useless. The DM ends up ramping up encounters to deal with him, which makes a couple other members of the party ineffective.

I'm not sure if it's being done intentionally or not. The frustration is more that the rest of the players are feeling like we're losing control of our own characters, because we don't get any chance to respond until it's over. Mind, he is trying to play a bit of a sneaky deceptive character, but he's doing things that shouldn't be possible, like rolling a stealth check to walk between a couple of characters (he would have to pass through another PC's square to do this) and pick up an item because "we were distracted by the conversation with the other guy."

Then... Bring that up. It doesn't really matter if he's doing it intentionally or not. If it's unintentional he needs to be told and corrected. If it's intentional he needs to be told and corrected with a garden hose. He's causing bad feelings amongst a number of members of the group and the DM is reacting to him and further causing bad feelings amongst a number of members of the group and he's being deliberately duplicitous at the table so as to take choice away from his fellow players, which, again, is causing bad feelings amongst a number of members of the group.

So, yeah, there's a problem here, it needs to be addressed in the open. When the fun is being diminished for multiple people, that's grounds for a group discussion.

WarKitty
2010-12-31, 01:11 PM
Well, we found out why his stat rolls are so improbable. He's been rolling up 5 or 6 characters at a time, then picking the best ones.

Kylarra
2010-12-31, 01:18 PM
Well, we found out why his stat rolls are so improbable. He's been rolling up 5 or 6 characters at a time, then picking the best ones.That would definitely do it.

Sipex
2010-12-31, 01:25 PM
Probably a way to convince himself he's not cheating. He creates the characters legitimately so it still feels fair to him.

FMArthur
2010-12-31, 01:30 PM
So he's doing, like... 6(6 x 4d6b3)b1 and saying it's the same as 6x 4d6b3?

grimbold
2010-12-31, 01:33 PM
share dice
borrow his see how he reacts
force him to use yours and see how his rolls are.
thats what i would do,
if the other players find it odd too then you may want to confront him

Sipex
2010-12-31, 01:37 PM
So he's doing, like... 6(6 x 4d6b3)b1 and saying it's the same as 6x 4d6b3?

I think she means he creates 6 different characters and when it's time to use a character he picks the one with the best stat rolls.

Kerrin
2010-12-31, 01:41 PM
Well, we found out why his stat rolls are so improbable. He's been rolling up 5 or 6 characters at a time, then picking the best ones.
If he's doing that, then he might as well just write down 18 for all his character's stats because given enough time to roll enough characters he could hit upon one with all 18s "legitimately."

Seems like a player like this one you have bears watching since they're willing to game the system in such ways.

Psyx
2010-12-31, 01:50 PM
I propose Deception.

Not a bad way of handling it.


Although I'd propose perception first. Just watch what's happening and make sure the dice are in the open.

Wait 'til the player is out of the room and it's easy to check for loading. Have a glass of water ready - a long one - and drop the dice in there a couple of times. Loaded ones will tumble around in compliance to the load in a very obvious manner. If the player comes back to wet dice, say that you were throwing them and they fell in, or something.

If you play on carpet, you MUST make players roll on books or something. Otherwise players always select the best option when the dice ****. Edit: When the dice don't land with one face clearly showing as the upward one. /rolleyes. Stupid filter.

Also: Pair players off when genning characters. I got into the habit of this when doing end of year stuff for Pendragon and it really foils cheating, as the players audit each other.


Suggestions?

Ban tiny dice. And those cylinder ones. It's perfectly reasonable, and I do it.


What advice would you give to a player who cheats, but is trying to break the habit?

Shock therapy?

Have them sit next to the GM and use large dice that are easy to read.


I look up the helmet...I pick it up and examine it.

Task the player next to him to listen to him carefully and act as a 'stupid interceptor'

Sipex
2010-12-31, 01:52 PM
Oh yeah, for the 'quiet speak' cheating, I'd tell the group that you explicitly keep an eye on <player> and/or restrain <player> due to past experiences.

WarKitty
2010-12-31, 01:53 PM
Oh yeah, for the 'quiet speak' cheating, I'd tell the group that you explicitly keep an eye on <player> and/or restrain <player> due to past experiences.

I was thinking of suggestion "if the DM didn't hear it then it doesn't count." Although we've had issues in general with characters acting at the same time, when we don't really want to spend the entire game in initiative order.

Popertop
2010-12-31, 02:40 PM
I have a player that uses these tiny d6s for rolling damage and stats all the time. All the time, they seem to roll high, but it's impossible for me to watch closer as he sits a few seats away and I don't have very good eyesight... and they are tiny.

Suggestions?

I just thought I would ask since this is on a related topic.

use binoculars

AerykVyrion
2010-12-31, 03:22 PM
IMHO, in the second situation it is more of a problem that the DM is letting it happen than that the player is cheating. If he is speaking softly or saying he's doing something that he shouldn't technically be able to do, then it is up to the DM to say "No, you can't do that (yet/right now/ever)," or even just ignore him; he'll get the message really quick.

For example:
In a campaign I was in, out of combat actions worked as "the first to speak and loudest person goes first", merely because the DM would respond to that person first. I specifically started taking advantage of that by yelling out long strings of what my character was doing as soon (or during) the description of the room, etc., was complete (not out of malice or anything, just because I wanted to go first). The DM finally noticed and began waiting to hear what everyone was doing first, and then would have the group as a whole pick what order the actions went in.

For the first situation (the dice cheating), don't just pull a Deception (although that's still a great idea), I say to go crazy and have everyone start cheating their rolls. It'll either kick-start the DM into asserting some kind of no-cheat dice-rolling rule, or it'll bring everyone back on the same playing field again. It'll work out even if the player is just naturally lucky, and not cheating.

kyoryu
2010-12-31, 03:24 PM
I think she means he creates 6 different characters and when it's time to use a character he picks the one with the best stat rolls.

That's what 6(6X4d6b3)b1 means. Roll 4d6b3 six times, do that for six sets, and keep the best one.


If he's doing that, then he might as well just write down 18 for all his character's stats because given enough time to roll enough characters he could hit upon one with all 18s "legitimately."

It's like take 20, but for character generation!


Seems like a player like this one you have bears watching since they're willing to game the system in such ways.

Yeah. There's a serious dishonesty issue going on that's going to have to be dealt with. Personally, I'd tell him to shape up, or he'll be gone the next time he's caught.

Kaww
2010-12-31, 03:40 PM
I propose Deception.
The Cast is as follows, The DM, and at least one other player, preferably one who knows how to "Spin" dice and who is NOT the one you are discussing in this thread. Bring more of the group into it.

You begin play as normal, and the Spinner spins the dice a few times. The DM accuses him of cheating. He denies it, the other players support the DM, ect ect.
In the end, the DM says "Here, to keep the game Honest, from now on all rolls will be done using cups". The rest of the group agrees, ect ect.
The result (Rolls are made with Cups) is achieved, however the problem player does not consider themselves targeted. The Spinner (Who was in on it the entire time) is the one who was targeted, and everybody uses Cups in the interest of fairness.

I laughed so hard! I read it as 'I propose Decapitation.'

It reminded me of an image "Cheater's fate" with a man hanging in half life style graphic...

FMArthur
2010-12-31, 04:23 PM
That's what 6(6X4d6b3)b1 means. Roll 4d6b3 six times, do that for six sets, and keep the best one.
Well, a stat array is not really the same as a whole character, so the correction stands, but I really, really doubt that any of these 'characters' consisted of anything more than an (unassigned) array of stats.

eepop
2010-12-31, 05:04 PM
I confirm that some (generally cheap) dice can be biased even if they are not supposed to. I have a d20 that rolls extremes (1, 2, 3, 18, 19, 20) much more often then middle values. (about 2 to 3 times more). I actually did the math for it as a stats problem.

We've got one like that too, it came as a life counter in a Magic the Gathering Fatpack. We've had a few other dice from fatpacks before and they seem to have a pretty common problem being biased (although not always in a good way).

Ashram
2010-12-31, 05:10 PM
We have someone in our group who is doing the same thing. Some big pointers:

1. Check what kind of dice he uses and where they're being rolled. Aside from possibly being tampered with, darker dice with hard to read font (Such as black dice with red font) are hard to see from far away, so make sure he rolls in front of the DM, and not behind some cover.

2. Make sure you institute the "Leave it where they lie" rule. If you notice he has a habit of snatching up his dice before anyone can see it and then giving some high number, this along with watching him rolling like a hawk should cut down on potential cheating.

3. If all else fails, confront him and talk to him about it.

Volos
2010-12-31, 05:36 PM
I had a player who always rolled crits against bosses or anything more difficult than the average challenge. It seemed strange so I questioned him about it, being upfront that if he was cheating that he needed to stop or I would remove him from the game. One thing that pushed me over the edge was when he rolled three 20s in a row on a boss that I spent a good deal of roleplaying time introducing and more time developing. I was running with the optional rule that if you rolled two 20s in a row you could roll once more to confirm an instant death attack. I asked him to start playing with other dice and to roll where I could clearly see him and he refused. This led to me removing him from the group.

A few things I noticed with my cheater and that I would suggest for other DMs to watch for are...
-Rolling before asked- The player might roll between turns or right before you ask him to. If the roll is good, he will keep it and claim it is for whatever attack, skill check, save, or ability check he wants to roll well for. If it is bad, then he is 'just testing' his dice and will wait until you ask him to roll.
-Clings to Dice- The player will only roll certian dice claiming that they are 'lucky' or something similar. If presented with other dice or given an ultimatium to change dice they will refuse profusely.
-Rolls before declaring action- The player will roll before declaring what he is rolling for. If the roll is bad, he will ask to make a check for something unimportant or something his character is bad at. If the result is good he will ask to do something important or he will ask to make an attack roll or something that could benifit from such a high roll.
-Special Dice- If the player reserves a single die for attack rolls or saves, you can be fairly sure it is either loaded or has been tested and proven to roll higher than the average by the player beforehand.

woodenbandman
2010-12-31, 07:49 PM
You could always admit that you think he`s cheating.
And check if his dice are loaded.


Honestly that's probably the best thing to do.

It's less passive aggressive and it will clearly display what your expectations are for your game.

randomhero00
2010-12-31, 09:27 PM
OP
meh, who cares? Is it really ruining your fun?

Tvtyrant
2010-12-31, 09:34 PM
The big one in my group is never allow people to roll 1 dice at a time. Its wayyy too easy to manipulate the dice that way (especially D6s).

Leecros
2010-12-31, 10:46 PM
-Clings to Dice- The player will only roll certian dice claiming that they are 'lucky' or something similar. If presented with other dice or given an ultimatium to change dice they will refuse profusely.

there are people who claim that their die are lucky. I agree that you need to keep an eye on them, but i've had....two? in my group before and i've written down their rolls and they've been no better than anyone else's. So while that's a red flag for cheating, it should not be utter proof that they are.



OP
meh, who cares? Is it really ruining your fun?

Evidently so since:

It's frustrating people because he's making other players feel like they're useless. The DM ends up ramping up encounters to deal with him, which makes a couple other members of the party ineffective.


Although if the DM has to ramp up the encounters then he/she really should look into the person in question's character.

It seems to be an unspoken rule in my group. i didn't make it, but basically when someone in my group makes a character they hand it over to me and say "would this make you change your campaign in any way?" After he did that everyone in my group did it. Of course, WarKitty, you're not the DM so you can't really make that rule.


It seems like there are a lot of ideas in this thread, but my suggestion would be to have you, and everyone else who suspects the person in question to pull the DM out and express your concerns. He may have his own and just hasn't said anything yet. I had to do that a couple of times in my old group because the fighter was one-shorting everything he fought. Me and my roommate talked to the DM and he checked out the other guy's character sheet and it turns out he was adding an extra +15 to his attack and damage rolls.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-31, 10:50 PM
OP
meh, who cares? Is it really ruining your fun?

Apparently, if he cares enough to come complain to us.:smallannoyed:

Traab
2011-01-01, 01:02 AM
I dont get the problem here, I see all these complicated devices and techniques to secretly stop him from cheating or to trap him or whatever. Just say, "Ive been noticing some rolling trends, to avoid that, we all roll with a cup now." Dont name names, dont stare at the guy you think is cheating while you say this, just act as the dm and at the start announce dice will be rolled with cups.

2xMachina
2011-01-01, 01:46 AM
It could be practiced.

Anecdote

If I take 2d6's in a certain way, shake it up at a certain strength and times, and throw it at a certain strength, they tend to roll high.
(No, they aren't dropped. They tend to roll a fair bit away, that they sometimes comment that I throw too hard. I let them look at it BTW.
No, they aren't my dice. It's used by everyone. Only especially effective when I do it.)

I'm pretty sure you can replicate the trick with any rolling device.
For cups: Remember what side is up when you put it in, roll it at a fixed speed and time. Keep trying till you get what you want. Once you do, remember it, and use the same configuration for it. The results shouldn't vary much.

Physics aren't random. Something that happens in the same way, always give the same results. The trick is making sure it happens the same way.
Adding amount of dices, not let you control how you start the dice, that goes to making it harder to control the results.

Fiery Diamond
2011-01-01, 02:11 AM
It could be practiced.

Anecdote

If I take 2d6's in a certain way, shake it up at a certain strength and times, and throw it at a certain strength, they tend to roll high.
(No, they aren't dropped. They tend to roll a fair bit away, that they sometimes comment that I throw too hard. I let them look at it BTW.
No, they aren't my dice. It's used by everyone. Only especially effective when I do it.)

I'm pretty sure you can replicate the trick with any rolling device.
For cups: Remember what side is up when you put it in, roll it at a fixed speed and time. Keep trying till you get what you want. Once you do, remember it, and use the same configuration for it. The results shouldn't vary much.

Physics aren't random. Something that happens in the same way, always give the same results. The trick is making sure it happens the same way.
Adding amount of dices, not let you control how you start the dice, that goes to making it harder to control the results.

This is very true. I don't get why so many people seem to think that "rolling in a cup" is necessarily going to fix things. As long as a player can 1) control the setup (how the dice are held in hand, how the dice as set in the cup, etc.) and 2) control the rolling, all it takes is being rather dedicated and learning/practicing the best way of getting the outcome you want. So, the only two surefire ways of preventing controlling the outcome of your die rolls are to not let the player control the setup (by changing up the number of dice rolled, or using different rolling mechanisms that the player isn't familiar with, etc.) or to not let the player control the rolling (by having another player roll for them or something similar).

Now, if the player is lazy, he/she is probably not willing to learn new ways of controlling outcomes, and so changing the rolling mechanism should suffice. But you can't always count on laziness.

Gavinfoxx
2011-01-01, 03:25 AM
Buy them a set of gamescience dice and one of those dice rolling cups, maybe?

I bought my gaming group each a gamescience d20, as a gift, once.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 05:26 AM
Start using a Cup or Dice Tower and get the other players who suspect the problem-player to use it too. It will probably snowball and everyone will be using a Cup or Dice Tower for their rolls and problem-player will have to use that or be conspicuous.

Fable Wright
2011-01-01, 06:47 AM
We've got one like that too, it came as a life counter in a Magic the Gathering Fatpack. We've had a few other dice from fatpacks before and they seem to have a pretty common problem being biased (although not always in a good way).

They're actually made to be like that. Look at your gaming d20, and then look at your fat pack d20. The fat pack d20 is a 'spin-down' die, which, while perfect for tracking life in M:tG, really botches up rolls in an actual game. The actual placement of numbers on the normal d20 is made to avoid cheating, while the spin-down dice are made to keep the numbers in about the same area. In my games, there's a flat-out ban on those.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-01, 10:23 AM
Have a question for you all. We have a player that seems to have...improbable die rolls. Like, he has 5 high stats and one low one. Or he never seems to roll ones. Rolls crit chances a lot and they always seem to confirm, and always seems to roll near-max damage. It's at the point where it's a bit suspicious, but there's no hard evidence. How would you proceed here?

I always keep track of a few basic metrics of die rolls. If you don't enjoy counting up running averages, just tally up 1s and 20s. Actually write them down, to avoid confirmation bias.

If, over a long period of time, you have a substantially unbalanced result, you have a problem. It might be just the die(some dice are made without much precision, and thus, are not actually that random). It might be cheating, etc. I'd avoid accusations of cheating without evidence. Here are some things to look for.

Player uses a counter D20 instead of one which has alternating high and low numbers. Not necessarily cheating, but it makes it much easier to roll in such a way that you end up with the high side up.

Player quickly moves the dice after rolling them. Either scooping them back up, or moving them, often before announcing the result. Generally a good sign of cheating. If happening, address the symptom first, to be sure. It's just generally good manners to let others see what you rolled.

Tiki Snakes
2011-01-01, 01:05 PM
Currently have a player who, for old-school related kicks, insists on rolling his d20's by rolling a 20-sided D10, and a D6 (with 4-6 marking the d10 as high, 1-3 low.)

Can't really accuse him of doing it so as to cheat though, because he almost universally rolls low that way, (Except of course on things like knowledge-checks and other largely irrelevant efforts).

randomhero00
2011-01-01, 01:13 PM
Well then if it's ruining your game....avoid the cup idea, they may be weighted and that won't stop it.

Just tell him straight up that his dice seem to roll too well. Its not his fault, they probably just came that way. Not all dice are created equal. Then ask him to buy new dice, or better yet, buy them yourself for him as a treat. What gamer would turn down new dice?

It is the surest way to deal with it with the least amount of consequence or fallout.

BeholderSlayer
2011-01-01, 03:03 PM
hahaha rolling up 5 or 6 characters at a time? that's awesome. i bet it's even the same character, just with different die rolls, if he's even doing that much.

this guy needs to be forced to make his stat rolls on all characters in front of the whole group, especially the DM.

WarKitty
2011-01-01, 06:45 PM
hahaha rolling up 5 or 6 characters at a time? that's awesome. i bet it's even the same character, just with different die rolls, if he's even doing that much.

this guy needs to be forced to make his stat rolls on all characters in front of the whole group, especially the DM.

We've seen at least one of these different characters - it was a completely different class. I know what I posted, but please do not make groundless accusations against my friend. I doubt he particularly thought of this as cheating.

BeholderSlayer
2011-01-01, 11:50 PM
We've seen at least one of these different characters - it was a completely different class. I know what I posted, but please do not make groundless accusations against my friend. I doubt he particularly thought of this as cheating.

I wouldn't call my assessment of this kind of activity a "groundless" accusation. In fact, it is fairly well grounded, the fact that he is your friend notwithstanding.

I can't see how it could possibly be construed as anything other than cheating.

Hmmm, I'll go roll up 5 of each class, and choose which one I want to play next time I get the chance. That's not cheating, right?

WarKitty
2011-01-01, 11:56 PM
I wouldn't call my assessment of this kind of activity a "groundless" accusation. In fact, it is fairly well grounded, the fact that he is your friend notwithstanding.

I can't see how it could possibly be construed as anything other than cheating.

Hmmm, I'll go roll up 5 of each class, and choose which one I want to play next time I get the chance. That's not cheating, right?

If they were all the same class I wouldn't say that he was rolling up different characters.

BeholderSlayer
2011-01-02, 12:04 AM
If they were all the same class I wouldn't say that he was rolling up different characters.

I'd hardly say looking at *one* sheet that happened to be another class makes him look any better. In fact, knowing that he's rolling up multiples, it just makes me believe more strongly that he's intentionally trying to deceive you. Why wouldn't he show you all the sheets that he's been making?

WarKitty
2011-01-02, 12:06 AM
I'd hardly say looking at *one* sheet that happened to be another class makes him look any better. In fact, knowing that he's rolling up multiples, it just makes me believe more strongly that he's intentionally trying to deceive you. Why wouldn't he show you all the sheets that he's been making?

I'll ask, he likes making characters so I suspect he would. Actually several of our group have a number of different characters on standby, so it's not *that* unusual around here. Just usually we roll a primary for each campaign and then pick one up if a character dies. For that matter, I think half of us roll again if the first roll was really crappy.

It's a bit hard to explain everything on an online forum. Gaming is only a small part of what we do together. He's been generally honest in everything else I know of him. There's some oddities about the gaming stuff, but that's the only place any of us have noticed anything. Hence why I think we're not getting outright cheating as much as some self-justification.

BeholderSlayer
2011-01-02, 12:08 AM
To put it fairly bluntly, if you roll for stats it should not be done in private.

This is just one more reason that rolling for stats is a bad decision. Point buy is simply superior in almost every way.