Yet another Gish Build Question

[McClintock]

I have been looking through the posts and handbooks and have decided that a gish build would be fun to play, but I have some questions that will require some help.

1: Don't like the Paladin part - I've played LG a lot in the past few years and I want a bit more room in the gray area.

2: Sorc vs Wiz??

3: Warblade vs Fighter??

4: Abjurant Champ included??

5: Jade Phoenix Mage (if warblade)??

6: Race??

7: 32 point buy

8: I can use most d&d books, just need to get approval outside of core (not usually a problem) No Dragon Magazines.

Finally, I need to keep it to 2 base classes and 2 PrCs (might be able to squeeze a PrC dip if absolutely necessary) per our house rules.

[SurlySeraph]

There are lots of possible gish builds out there.

1. Plenty of other entries. Wizard 6/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) X is a good one. Paladin 2 is for the Cha synergy with Sorcerer.
2. If you don't have Cha synergy with something else, Wizard will tend to be stronger.
3. Depends what you need. Some gish builds need a lot of feats, and so take Fighter; Warblade's always good, though.
4. Yes. Always. Abjurant Champion improves almost any gish build.
5. I'm not a big fan of JPMs, but they have applications. You'll definitely want a lot of quickened spells if you go with them.
6. Elf if weapon proficiencies are required (possibly Grey Elf if Int will matter more than Str), usually Human if not. Strongheart Halflings, Deep Imaskari, Gnomes (+Shadowcraft Mage), Lesser Aasimar/ Star Elves/ Spellscales if you need Cha... there are plenty of possibilities.
7. Wait, that's not a question.
8. Doable!
And 2 base classes and 2 PrCs isn't a big problem.

There are lots of possible builds that meet your criteria. Wizard 6/ Swiftblade X is simple. Wizard 6 (using the variant that trades its feats for Fighter feats, taking 2x Martial Study and a Martial Stance)/ JPM X works, as does Wiz 3/ Warblade 3/ JPM X. What abilities are you looking for?

[Amphetryon]

I have been looking through the posts and handbooks and have decided that a gish build would be fun to play, but I have some questions that will require some help.

1: Don't like the Paladin part - I've played LG a lot in the past few years and I want a bit more room in the gray area.

2: Sorc vs Wiz??

3: Warblade vs Fighter??

4: Abjurant Champ included??

5: Jade Phoenix Mage (if warblade)??

6: Race??

7: 32 point buy

8: I can use most d&d books, just need to get approval outside of core (not usually a problem) No Dragon Magazines.

Finally, I need to keep it to 2 base classes and 2 PrCs (might be able to squeeze a PrC dip if absolutely necessary) per our house rules.

1. Didn't seem like a question. No Paladin; fair enough.

2. Without Paladin, Sorcerer loses some of its appeal. If Sorcerer and Wizard are the only choices here, I'd go Wizard. But I'd love to interest you in some Beguiler instead.

3. Warblade, almost certainly. Even if you have to blow a feat for Heavy Armor proficiency, it's just a better class.

4. The number of times where Abjurant Champion should not be included in a gish build is microscopically small. This is not one of those times.

5. Most definitely, Jade Phoenix Mage.

6. Human is the default answer, for obvious reasons. For variety, I like Raptoran, so you have an easy way to deal with Flight without spending resources.

7. 16 12 14 16 10 8. Season to taste. If you're going for a ranged gish, swap DEX and STR, for instance.

Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Wizard +5/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 5 is perfectly serviceable. Decrease Wizard in proportion to how much JPM you want, keeping an eye on prereqs.

[McClintock]

Abilities: highest BAB is a given, as well as full caster
I've looked at swiftblade, but focusing that much on one spell seems kind of one trick pony to me.

I like the idea of martial abilities and magic together

As far as anything else, my group is usually very under optimized and I am looking to be a "fix a flat" type character. (Filling in as many holes as possible)

[SurlySeraph]

Then a JPM is likely best, they're pretty versatile. Diplomacy and Sense Motive (backed up by enchantments) can't hurt, you *could* be the party's knowledge provider except that JPM doesn't actually get Knowledge as a class skill, which is probably an oversight, and with enough spells you can make up for almost any shortfall.

Based off Amphetryon's build, you might try:

Human Wizard 5/ Warblade 1/ AbjChamp 5/ JPM 9
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16 (+ level up bonuses)
Wis 10
Cha 8
17th-level casting, BAB +17

1 Wizard, Combat Casting, Knowledge Devotion, open bonus feat
2 Wizard
3 Wizard, open feat
4 Wizard
5 Wizard, open bonus feat
6 Warblade, open feat
7 JPM
8 JPM
9 AbjChamp, open feat
And continue the distribution however you'd like. I'd probably use the open feats for Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire), Searing Spell, Quicken Spell, and other metamagic feats.

[Eldariel]

Warblade 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is a fine Gish.
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is a fine Gish.
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight-OR-Sacred Exorcist-OR-Knight Phantom -> is a fine Gish.
Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword/Abjurant Champion is a fine Gish.

You have lots of options.

[Last Laugh]

Abilities: highest BAB is a given, as well as full caster
I've looked at swiftblade, but focusing that much on one spell seems kind of one trick pony to me.

I like the idea of martial abilities and magic together

As far as anything else, my group is usually very under optimized and I am looking to be a "fix a flat" type character. (Filling in as many holes as possible)

I like how Haste works on the Swiftblade, making it ALWAYS active is wonderful (swift action really good party buff, works in Antimagic field, gives 50% miss chance for most things) It is a bit one trick, but it's a realllly good trick.
It isn't an Abjurant Champion, but it is an interesting prestige class. The loss of caster levels is tough for a full caster, making it a hard decision. +1 standard action/round is amazing, starting every battle with 3 spells is awesome! I cast Haste! Then I cast Solid Fog! Then I cast Legion of Sentinels!
The party you are in is unoptimized? Play whats fun! Personally I like the idea of a highly mobile Mageknight throwing around debuffs while full attacking.

For kicks: Cleric 5/Swiftblade 9. Halfling. Take Yondalla's Sense (RotW) for Wis-> Initiative twice. Go first, lay down party buffs, next round activate travel devotion.

I believe that swiftblade was not intended to be exclusive to wizards or sorcerers. Anyone capable of casting haste from any level spell should be allowed entry as long as that was the only spell that cast from that level. (I remember reading that this was the author's intention)

[SurlySeraph]

@^: You need the Time domain for Haste, and I don't think Yondalla grants Time or Travel.

[Last Laugh]

@^: You need the Time domain for Haste, and I don't think Yondalla grants Time or Travel.

Awkwardly enough you do not need to worship Yondalla to take Yondalla's Sense. You just need to be a halfling.

[Greenish]

5. I'm not a big fan of JPMs, but they have applications. You'll definitely want a lot of quickened spells if you go with them.Meh, you should find use for your swift actions with maneuvers (and if warblade, recovering them).

I've looked at swiftblade, but focusing that much on one spell seems kind of one trick pony to me.That would depend on the spell, eh? :smallamused:

It's extra actions on a good chassis with decent spellcasting. "One-trick pony" doesn't really describe anything with even partial wizard casting.

Warblade 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is a fine Gish.Why warblade instead of crusader? That'd get you started with Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and free action recovery.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Most of these have already been covered, but I'll throw my two copper in, too.

1. The only time you use Paladin is when you're also using Sorcerer. That set-up is generally of the form Paladin 2/Sorcerer X/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist Y, where X is the minimum needed to get into Sacred Exorcist or Abjurant Champion, whichever is easier to qualify for and then Y is the remainder.

2. Wizard. Always wizard. The only time you go sorcerer is when you go with Cha to everything, but every other time is wizard. Yes, even when loredrake shenanigans are on the table: wizard.

3. If you have to choose, actually, Crusader, as that generally gets you into Jade Phoenix Mage and/or Eldritch Knight, whereas Warblade doesn't really work well with either of those. However, if it can be avoided (and it can), I'd go with none of the above.

4. The only time you don't go Abjurant Champion is when it is not allowed or if you're DM is throwing some sort of limit on prestige classes.

5. I'm generally a bigger fan of Swiftblade over Jade Phoenix Mage, but I'd rather go with Jade Phoenix Mage over just Eldritch Knight, despite the lose of caster levels.

6. If Loredrake is allowed, Kobold. If just the web enhancements are allowed, Kobold (assuming sorcerer-based). For easy access into Swiftblade, some brand of elven subrace. For everything else, human.

7. 16 16 16 14 8 8 works well if you're wizard base.

8. I'm a fan of going Crusader 1/Wizard 4 (using Cityscape for early entry, shuffling the feats away later)/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage +8 is probably the best you can do with your house rules. You can move around JPM and AC levels around for getting higher level maneuvers.

[Coidzor]

Why warblade instead of crusader? That'd get you started with Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and free action recovery.

I've wondered that myself, crusader doesn't get mentioned much except for Ruby Knight Windicator builds in mixing martial adepts with spellcasting...

[Last Laugh]

6. If Loredrake is allowed, Kobold. If just the web enhancements are allowed, Kobold (assuming sorcerer-based). For easy access into Swiftblade, some brand of elven subrace. For everything else, human.

Or kobold because:

Weapon Proficiency: Kobolds receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the heavy pick and light pick as bonus feats. Kobolds are born and bred miners, regardless of their actual profession, allowing them to easily wield these weapons.

[Maho-Tsukai]

All these tips are great, but are you sold on being an ARCANE casting Gish? I ask because the cleric(and to a lesser extent the psiwar) in and of itself is a pre-made gish basically out of the box. While I know that's kinda cheesy advice, it's true. However, the main reason I mention it is that, if you are evil, there is an awesome PrC on these forums for a Martial Adapt/Cleric multiclass known as the Doom Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79032) which has some really awesome, evil flavor that makes for an awesome "Tin Tyrant/Dark Lord" type of character. In addition, I will give you a shamless plug. If that Doom Lord class is looking a bit too MAD for your tastes, it would be rather awesome with my homebrew feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177245). *end shameless plug*

If you are set on arcane however, the options already stated above are all good, really.

[Escheton]

Warblades recover all their maneuvers with a swift action and a non-action/attack action. They have all their choices at all times.
Which means you can use your massive healing strike 2x in 3 turns. Or any other that you favor. That is quite good.

[randomhero00]

warblades/swordmages are pretty much premade gishes (or that's what they feel like).

Also ask if you can use pathfinder, there are some PrCs that are very gishy (magus IIRC).

Also, cleric pretty much comes gish out of the box if you pick the right spells, especially if you DMM.

edit: oh, and of course there's the druid, which is basically a gish if you shapeshift and take the natural spell feat.

These are all fairly simple builds hard to mess up.

[Amphetryon]

7. 16 16 16 14 8 8 works well if you're wizard base.How are you getting those stats on 32 points? My math says that's 36 points.

[herrhauptmann]

For kicks: Cleric 5/Swiftblade 9. Halfling. Take Yondalla's Sense (RotW) for Wis-> Initiative twice. Go first, lay down party buffs, next round activate travel devotion.

I believe that swiftblade was not intended to be exclusive to wizards or sorcerers. Anyone capable of casting haste from any level spell should be allowed entry as long as that was the only spell that cast from that level. (I remember reading that this was the author's intention)

Word of god did say that more than just wiz/sorc were supposed to be able to get into swiftblade. But I believe it was referring to the special requirement "Must have spent all 3rd level spells exclusively casting haste". Which automatically disqualifies Warmage and Trapspring PrC (4th and 1st respectively).
However, clerics and other divine types that get into swiftblade suffer greatly, because swift only advances arcane spellcasting. Possibilities: Cleric with time, travel, celerity domains, and they need to spend a feat to get more than 1 haste per day.
Also, clerics of lathander get it with a feat. A heretic feat(Risen Sun) in Power of Faerun puts haste on their class spell list.

[gorfnab]

Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8 - Song of White Raven is nice.

[Eldariel]

Why warblade instead of crusader? That'd get you started with Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and free action recovery.

True, but I just like Warblade to get those low-level maneuvers you won't be able to learn during JPM. Meh. What I really like is taking a second Warblade-level at some point to get IHS or WRT. But again, bleh.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

How are you getting those stats on 32 points? My math says that's 36 points.

That would be me being bad at math as of that posting.

[true_shinken]

Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is the best gish around... at low levels.

[Last Laugh]

Word of god did say that more than just wiz/sorc were supposed to be able to get into swiftblade. But I believe it was referring to the special requirement "Must have spent all 3rd level spells exclusively casting haste". Which automatically disqualifies Warmage and Trapspring PrC (4th and 1st respectively).
However, clerics and other divine types that get into swiftblade suffer greatly, because swift only advances arcane spellcasting. Possibilities: Cleric with time, travel, celerity domains, and they need to spend a feat to get more than 1 haste per day.
Also, clerics of lathander get it with a feat. A heretic feat(Risen Sun) in Power of Faerun puts haste on their class spell list.

Ah, thank you for the correction. I didn't notice that it was arcane only.

[Thurbane]

What's the highest caster level you can get, and still get +16 BAB by 20th level (Divine Power not withstanding)?

[Glimbur]

What's the highest caster level you can get, and still get +16 BAB by 20th level (Divine Power not withstanding)?

Duskblade 20. 20 CL, 20 BAB... and the spell list is mostly damage stuff. There are more powerful ways to mid-to-high-level gish.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The benchmark for gishes is at least spellcasting level 17 (9th level spells) and BAB+16 (4 iterative attacks) by level 20, and is not that hard to get CL 20 and BAB 16.

Use martial arcanist class feature from Abjurant Champion to set your CL to your BAB then apply the effect of practised spellcaster to get a nice CL of 20. Note this only help with CL for the purposes of durations, SR checks, etc. Not access to higher level spells.

[Thurbane]

Duskblade 20. 20 CL, 20 BAB... and the spell list is mostly damage stuff. There are more powerful ways to mid-to-high-level gish.
Sorry, should have clarified - highest CL with at least +16 BAB and 9th level spells. :smalltongue:

The benchmark for gishes is at least spellcasting level 17 (9th level spells) and BAB+16 (4 iterative attacks) by level 20, and is not that hard to get CL 20 and BAB 16.
Thanks - what would be a sample of such a build?

Battle Sorcerer 15/Abj Champion 5 gets to BAB +16, 20th level casting...but obviously BS casting is pretty limited.

[TKB]

OK, this may sound a bit newbish and i think i've already answered this question myself but just to make sure...

What exactly is "gish"?

[Thurbane]

OK, this may sound a bit newbish and i think i've already answered this question myself but just to make sure...

What exactly is "gish"?
Gish means a combined melee/arcane casting combo...traditionally a Fighter/Wizard. The term comes from way back in 1E, and was originally coined in regards to a specific caste of the Githyanki race.

[TKB]

Gish means a combined melee/arcane casting combo...traditionally a Fighter/Wizard. The term comes from way back in 1E, and was originally coined in regards to a specific caste of the Githyanki race.

Ah, thank you very kindly.

[BenTheJester]

Duskblade 20. 20 CL, 20 BAB... and the spell list is mostly damage stuff. There are more powerful ways to mid-to-high-level gish.

This. It IS a gish, without the unnecessary complications

[Coidzor]

This. It IS a gish, without the unnecessary complications

Or utility. :/

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorry, should have clarified - highest CL with at least +16 BAB and 9th level spells. :smalltongue:

Thanks - what would be a sample of such a build?

Battle Sorcerer 15/Abj Champion 5 gets to BAB +16, 20th level casting...but obviously BS casting is pretty limited.

Ranger 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

Bab 18
Normal CL 16 With Martial Arcanist 18, with Practiced Spellcaster CL 20
Cast as a 17 level wizard.

[gbprime]

Ranger 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

Bab 18
Normal CL 16 With Martial Arcanist 18, with Practiced Spellcaster CL 20
Cast as a 17 level wizard.

I'd change that up a bit.

Duskblade 1 / Wizard 2 / Elf or Human Paragon 3 / Spellsword 1 / Abj Champ 5 / Knight Phantom 8

Same BAB and Casting, plus a stat bonus, bonus feat, and more class abilities. Duskblade gets you the heavy armor to qualify for Spellsword, but if you want to spend the bonus feat on a Ranger's TWF, so be it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

:facepalm: crap I didn't remember Ranger only gave light (or was it medium?) armour proficiency, and that Spellsword required up to heavy.

Still my general point stans, a BAB 16 SL 17 gish is not difficult, and in many cases quite straightforward.

[Psyren]

This. It IS a gish, without the unnecessary complications

Or utility. :/

Is it bad that I lol'ed at this?

As I am wont to do, I will toss in the psionic solutions. One of my personal faves is the Slayer.

Cookie-cutter Slayer: Ranger 2/Psion 8/Slayer 10 = ML 17, BAB 16
Good choices for your discipline are Nomad, Egoist or Seer, though any of them work well really. (The latter is great for a hunter or "blind swordsman")

Gish-in-a-can: Psywar 20. With the proper feat selection, can curbstomp Duskblades and go toe-to-toe with Swordsages. Consider trading a feat for a Mantle or Soulbound Weapon.

I Know Kung-Fu: Tashalatora Monk 2/Ardent or Psywar 18. The choice here is between more feats or more powers. If your DM lets you swap powers out of mantles then Ardent is definitely better; even if s/he doesn't, it's a solid option. I call this one the Ur-Monk.

Zealot: Paladin 2/Wilder 18: This one falls just short of that 4th attack, but I think Surging Euphoria and Divine Grace make up for it, personally. :smallsmile: Unlike the Sorcadin, your armor and shield don't interfere with manifesting.

[Coidzor]

Is it bad that I lol'ed at this? What? A Gish could use utility spells or items. <_< >_>

Heck, a gish as primary arcanist/psionicist might actually be more balanced with the rest of the party due to being a spell level behind for most of his career.

Though you've reminded me that I really do need to get a better feel for psionics.

[Psyren]

Though you've reminded me that I really do need to get a better feel for psionics.

The best part is that all 4 builds can be made simply using the SRD and WotC site. You'll have to be a Psywar instead of an Ardent for the third one, and you'll need to find the text of Monastic Training somewhere (Tashalatora's prereq), but you can easily just dump one of the Monk's bonus feats for it without knowing what benefit it gives if your DM is so inclined.

[SurlySeraph]

Zealot: Paladin 2/Wilder 18: This one falls just short of that 4th attack, but I think Surging Euphoria and Divine Grace make up for it, personally. :smallsmile: Unlike the Sorcadin, your armor and shield don't interfere with manifesting.

If you've got Lords of Madness, Sanctified Mind is full BAB, 5/6 psi progression, and has a nifty 1st-level ability that makes Psychic Enervation a lot less bad. Paladin 2/ Wilder 12/ SM 6 has 17 BAB, though losing 9th-level powers is an issue.

I've also been reading up on Ardents recently, and thought of Ardent 4/ Ranger 1/ Sanctified Mind 6/ Slayer 9 as a potential build. +19 BAB, 20th-level manifesting with Practiced Manifester (17th without), and some great defensive abilities.

[BeholderSlayer]

How about Gish? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9593.0)

[Psyren]

How about Gish? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9593.0)


Skippy the Dancing Venerable Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Desert Phrenic Magic-Blooded Kobold

I kinda stopped reading here :smalltongue:

[BeholderSlayer]

I kinda stopped reading here :smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin: Yes...yes....the plan worked...

[SurlySeraph]

Eh, it's an epic-ECL character. 20 levels, +3 LA from White Dragonspawn and Phrenic. He needs to have at least 1/8 elven blood to be a Spelldancer (yay for fluff requirements!), and good luck justifying that for a Dragonwrought Kobold. Plus mixing Eberron, Dragonlance, *and* Forgotten Realms-specific material. Plus using Dragonwrought to qualify for a sovereign archetype is still a questionable interpretation. Plus material from Dragon Magazine (Magic-Blooded) is rarely allowed.

It works, of course, but it's an epic-ECL character using the always-questionable free sorcerer levels trick. Of course it's ridiculously powerful.

[BeholderSlayer]

Eh, it's an epic-ECL character. 20 levels, +3 LA from White Dragonspawn and Phrenic. He needs to have at least 1/8 elven blood to be a Spelldancer (yay for fluff requirements!), and good luck justifying that for a Dragonwrought Kobold. Plus mixing Eberron, Dragonlance, *and* Forgotten Realms-specific material. Plus using Dragonwrought to qualify for a sovereign archetype is still a questionable interpretation. Plus material from Dragon Magazine (Magic-Blooded) is rarely allowed.

It works, of course, but it's an epic-ECL character using the always-questionable free sorcerer levels trick. Of course it's ridiculously powerful.

Not Spellsinger, Spelldancer. There are no special fluff requirements for Spelldancer, only feats, skills, and spell level.

Whether or not stuff is allowed at other tables isn't a concern for me, only what is allowed at MY table is. :smallwink: Of course, it can give the OP some ideas.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not Spellsinger, Spelldancer. There are no special fluff requirements for Spelldancer, only feats, skills, and spell level.

Whether or not stuff is allowed at other tables isn't a concern for me, only what is allowed at MY table is. :smallwink:

:smallconfused: Wasn't skippy supposed to be a villain?....

[BeholderSlayer]

:smallconfused: Wasn't skippy supposed to be a villain?....

Yes. So, what's confusing?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Me misinterpreting what you said.The way I read what you said, that it only matters what is allowed at your table, seemed to imply you were using Skippy as a PC not as a BBEG.

[BeholderSlayer]

Me misinterpreting what you said.The way I read what you said, that it only matters what is allowed at your table, seemed to imply you were using Skippy as a PC not as a BBEG.

Maybe one day, but not right now, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Oh and as for the Epic ECL thing, using LA buyoff (although I suppose that really doesn't matter, still epic ECL in a way).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe one day, but not right now, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek: You are evill, EVILLLL I say
:smalltongue:

And who am I kidding, I love skippy (I bookmarked the thread at BG when I saw it)

[SurlySeraph]

Not Spellsinger, Spelldancer. There are no special fluff requirements for Spelldancer, only feats, skills, and spell level.

Whether or not stuff is allowed at other tables isn't a concern for me, only what is allowed at MY table is. :smallwink: Of course, it can give the OP some ideas.

Ah, thanks for the correction.


Oh and as for the Epic ECL thing, using LA buyoff (although I suppose that really doesn't matter, still epic ECL in a way).

Still takes a lot more XP to get to 20th after buying off LA +3 than to just get to 20th.

I don't mean to disparage your build, because it is extremely powerful and very cleverly built. Using the free Sorc levels to qualify for Swiftblade early never would have occurred to me, your Cha-boosting and use of Arcane Reflexes for unbeatable initiative is awesome, your buff list is excellent, your assassination-round technique exemplary, and I really appreciate high-optimization builds that actually remember to list expensive spell components and minor magic items that they would actually use in play.
It's just that I hate Dragonwrought and the free sorcerer levels trick.

[BeholderSlayer]

It's just that I hate Dragonwrought and the free sorcerer levels trick.

No offense taken. The idea was basically to slap charisma to *everything.* Skippy gets it to AC, Saves, To-Hit, Damage (twice), and Initiative. If I could figure out some way to get Unholy Toughness without being undead, believe me, I would. :smallbiggrin:

[SurlySeraph]

Polymorph Any Object yourself into an undead that gets Unholy Toughness, maybe? But then you'd be stuck with undead type, and I don't think that spell that strips away undead immunities remove the undead type. If it counted as a feat you could use Heroics + Dark Chaos Shuffle, but I don't think it does.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Are dragons still elligible for Sarruks manipulate form ability? If so, you just gate a Sarruk and order him to give you Unholy toughness, then dismiss him.

:tongue:

[BeholderSlayer]

Are dragons still elligible for Sarruks manipulate form ability? If so, you just gate a Sarruk and order him to give you Unholy toughness, then dismiss him.

:tongue:

roflcopter :smallsmile:

[true_shinken]

Are dragons still elligible for Sarruks manipulate form ability? If so, you just gate a Sarruk and order him to give you Unholy toughness, then dismiss him.

:tongue:

At this point, you just have to wonder why the hell you are not Pun-Pun yet... specially since you are using even more books and about the same amount of cheese.

[BeholderSlayer]

At this point, you just have to wonder why the hell you are not Pun-Pun yet... specially since you are using even more books and about the same amount of cheese.

I don't think that using Kobold sorcerer shenanigans comes remotely close to utilizing Manipulate Form, and that's pretty much the only "cheese" in the build. Number of sources used isn't a relevant point.

[Psyren]

Are there any nice gish builds that use War Mind? And can anyone think of a way (not bloodlines) to get a Wilder/Sanctified Mind combo to 9ths and 16 BAB?

[Coidzor]

Now you've all got me wondering how an Aspect of Pun-Pun would compare with this.

[true_shinken]

I don't think that using Kobold sorcerer shenanigans comes remotely close to utilizing Manipulate Form, and that's pretty much the only "cheese" in the build. Number of sources used isn't a relevant point.

Number of sources may not be a relevant point to you, but it is for many many people. As is using stuff from cross-settings. As is using questionable material (like sovereign archetypes and kobolds as true dragons).
Skippy depends on 1) kobolds being considered true dragons (questionable), 2) loredrake with LA-buyoff and not using the errata (questionable as well), 3) sovereign archetypes being applied to dragons without racial hit dice (questionable yet again) and 4) stuff from three different settings.
PunPun depends on the sarrukh being able to manipulate form; that's the core of his trick. Not questionable at all. All the other stuff or 'early entry' PunPun tricks might be questionable, but the core is pretty simple and difficult to argue against.
Whatever floats your boat, anyway.

[SurlySeraph]

Are there any nice gish builds that use War Mind? And can anyone think of a way (not bloodlines) to get a Wilder/Sanctified Mind combo to 9ths and 16 BAB?

Wilder 8/ Sanctified Mind 6/ Slayer 6 gets 9ths and +18 BAB.

Most uses of War Mind that I've seen focus on Sweeping Strike, to grapple multiple targets, hit multiple targets with strikes or weapon-like powers, etc. There's a good build here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9465058&postcount=100), mixing it with Iron Mind (Races of Stone) to get as much DR as possible. I haven't read the rest of that thread, but it'll probably have plenty of good ideas as well.

[true_shinken]

Wilder 8/ Sanctified Mind 6/ Slayer 6 gets 9ths and +18 BAB.

Most uses of War Mind that I've seen focus on Sweeping Strike, to grapple multiple targets, hit multiple targets with strikes or weapon-like powers, etc. There's a good build here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9465058&postcount=100), mixing it with Iron Mind (Races of Stone) to get as much DR as possible. I haven't read the rest of that thread, but it'll probably have plenty of good ideas as well.

Yes, that round had some pretty good builds. Check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169717).

[Psyren]

Wilder 8/ Sanctified Mind 6/ Slayer 6 gets 9ths and +18 BAB.

I think you would have to enter Slayer first - you need proficiency with all martial weapons to enter SM, so the MWP feat won't cut it. And that unfortunately means blowing a feat on Track. :smallyuk:

[BeholderSlayer]

Skippy depends on 1) kobolds being considered true dragons (questionable), 2) loredrake with LA-buyoff and not using the errata (questionable as well), 3) sovereign archetypes being applied to dragons without racial hit dice (questionable yet again) and 4) stuff from three different settings.
PunPun depends on the sarrukh being able to manipulate form; that's the core of his trick. Not questionable at all. All the other stuff or 'early entry' PunPun tricks might be questionable, but the core is pretty simple and difficult to argue against.

1-3 all fall under the same umbrella, kobold sorcerer shenanigans, so your list is actually just 1. Loredrake errata? Enlighten me, or did you make that up?

[Greenish]

I think you would have to enter Slayer first - you need proficiency with all martial weapons to enter SM, so the MWP feat won't cut it.Militia will, though, but that's another feat burned.

Loredrake errata? Enlighten me, or did you make that up?I think he meant Dragonspawn errata, since otherwise he'd have mentioned dragonwrought twice.

Disclaimer: I haven't paid so much attention to the high end kobold optimization, so I don't know if dragonspawn has errata.

[Coidzor]

I think you would have to enter Slayer first - you need proficiency with all martial weapons to enter SM, so the MWP feat won't cut it. And that unfortunately means blowing a feat on Track. :smallyuk:

Militia is basically what MWP should've been, if you're willing to dump a first level feat or get regional feats in addition to first level feats. Retraining the feat once getting a level of slayer would be required for it to be worthwhile to do so, of course... And just taking track + slayer and then going into SM would probably be better. Well, depending upon if you wanted levels of slayer I guess.

[Psyren]

I liked having Paladin in there for Cha to saves. But I don't think it's possible to get Divine Grace AND 9ths AND 16 BAB in the same build.

(Well, you can if you're not a Wilder. Why on earth do they have slow progression anyway. It's not like they're any more spontaneous than a Psion. It's ridiculous.)

[true_shinken]

Militia will, though, but that's another feat burned.
I think he meant Dragonspawn errata, since otherwise he'd have mentioned dragonwrought twice.
Yup, that's about it. Dragons of Krynn updates and adds an errata to dragonspawn (and you need the errata to possibly qualify for Loredrake, so I believe you have it). LA+3 or +1 when controled by another dragon and only independent dragonspawn should be used as player characters. Since NPCs don't care about LA, it basically means white dragonspawn has an LA of +3.

[true_shinken]

(Well, you can if you're not a Wilder. Why on earth do they have slow progression anyway. It's not like they're any more spontaneous than a Psion. It's ridiculous.)
Well, the Wilder gets more skill points and actual class features...

[SurlySeraph]

I liked having Paladin in there for Cha to saves. But I don't think it's possible to get Divine Grace AND 9ths AND 16 BAB in the same build.

(Well, you can if you're not a Wilder. Why on earth do they have slow progression anyway. It's not like they're any more spontaneous than a Psion. It's ridiculous.)

Hm. Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster won't work because they only advance one class at a time and don't get features at 1st level.
Wilder 18/ Champion of Gwynharwyf 2 is possible - it only requires feats - but one of its feats requires the ability to rage, so if you gain rage via a spell or item you probably lose that feat and thus the PrC if you lose the spell or item. But Graft Weapon takes care of that, so if you don't mind replacing your hand with a weapon with the 3.0 Crazed enhancement or a cursed Berserking Sword every morning, Wilder 18/ Champion of Gwynharwyf 2 should work.

I presume Wilder's slow progression was meant to balance how they get BAB and an "easy" way to boost manifester level.

[Psyren]

Well, the Wilder gets more skill points and actual class features...

Skill points are a wash; the Psion is int-based and so likely has more anyway. So we get to the class features:

1) Wild Surge - a great ability initially, that gets progressively worse as you gain levels. (Wait, what?)
2) Elude Touch - a dodge bonus that gets better the more armor you pile on. (Wait, what?)
3) Volatile Mind - What the hell? This is a minor inconvenience at best. Worse, it ignores transparency (enchanters have no PP to lose) and it affects benign powers from your friends, like Correspond, Mind Blank, Reformation, Chirurgery etc.
4) Surging Euphoria - the only unqualifiably good ability they have. But this one, being tied to WS, also has to deal with Enervation.

The class features are eh, but better than none, right? Sure... except you also pay out the nose in Powers Known to use them. 20 LESS than a Psion??? That's one of each level, with one extra 1st and one extra 9th. You're a Battle Sorcerer now! :smallyuk:

So no... they didn't deserve delayed progression at all.




I presume Wilder's slow progression was meant to balance how they get full BAB and an "easy" way to boost manifester level.

3/4 BAB actually. And WS isn't easy at all (see above.) Wilders didn't deserve this treatment imo.

[BeholderSlayer]

Yup, that's about it. Dragons of Krynn updates and adds an errata to dragonspawn (and you need the errata to possibly qualify for Loredrake, so I believe you have it). LA+3 or +1 when controled by another dragon and only independent dragonspawn should be used as player characters. Since NPCs don't care about LA, it basically means white dragonspawn has an LA of +3.

Which isn't a big deal, because interestingly enough Bestiary of Krynn, (revised) gives rules for creating Dragonspawn abominations. You could theoretically pick up FIVE sorcerer levels from just becoming a dragonspawn abomination.

The wording of the application of the template says that you roll twice on a table, and use an applicable mutation from a list. If said player was lucky enough they'd roll "roll again twice" two times, and roll "+1 sorcerer level" for the 4 rerolls. Since kobolds aren't listed in the list of mutations, you may have to roll again, and with luck pick up yet another sorcerer level.Then they also add the dragonspawn template bonuses on top of these mutations. Then they add Loredrake, and the Greater Rite.

So, if we really want to be sticklers about the rules, a cheesed out kobold sorcerer picks up 9 sorcerer levels in trade for +3 LA (or maybe +4, hard to tell the way this is written).

Why would you need the errata to possibly qualify for Loredrake?

[SurlySeraph]

Yep, I mistyped. It wouldn't be nearly so difficult to get full Wilder progression and +16 BAB if they had full BAB. :smalltongue:
And I put "easy" in quotation marks for a reason, namely that Overchannel is easier most of the time, dazing totally sucks, and it's hard to get around it. And I don't know of any way to negate the PP loss. The Psion-Wilder power gap is at least as big as the Sorc-Wizard one.

[true_shinken]

Why would you need the errata to possibly qualify for Loredrake?
Because dragonspawn makes you a monstrous humanoid. Only with errata does it make you a dragon.


Wilders didn't deserve this treatment imo.
Your points are valid, Psyren. I think it's a minor difference at best. I tend to favor Wilders myself, because I like the flavor and the better skill list (hello movement skills!). I don't think it's that much of a difference. Wilders do get higher HD, though.

[BeholderSlayer]

Because dragonspawn makes you a monstrous humanoid. Only with errata does it make you a dragon.

True, then it comes down to the old argument of which is applied first, dragonspawn or dragonwrought. I can see the logic of both sides on that, so there's no reason to get into it.

But still, 9 sorcerer levels!

[true_shinken]

True, then it comes down to the old argument of which is applied first, dragonspawn or dragonwrought. I can see the logic of both sides on that, so there's no reason to get into it.

But still, 9 sorcerer levels!

Actually, I just realized dragonspawn can't be applied to creatures with the dragon type as well. So... yeah. No way to actually pull this.

[BeholderSlayer]

Actually, I just realized dragonspawn can't be applied to creatures with the dragon type as well. So... yeah. No way to actually pull this.

Like I said, it all depends which you believe gets applied first.

[true_shinken]

Like I said, it all depends which you believe gets applied first.

Not at all. Dragonspawn is an acquired template, like lich or vampire. It has to applied last.

[Greenish]

Not at all. Dragonspawn is an acquired template, like lich or vampire. It has to applied last.I think this discussion would be better suited for a different thread, if it indeed has to be rehashed.

Now then, does someone actually remember what the topic was? :smallcool:

[BeholderSlayer]

Not at all. Dragonspawn is an acquired template, like lich or vampire. It has to applied last.

/shrug

Not if you Psyref Dragonwrought after you take the template. :smalltongue:



Now then, does someone actually remember what the topic was? :smallcool:

Sorry about that, carry on then. GISH?!?!