Tarquin vs Xykon?

[Jagos]

Place yer betsx folks, place yer bets! It's the match of the century as one fights for the location of a gate and the other fights for the control of his continent!

Let's look at our contenders first and foremost. In this corner, with an abnormally high DC...

He is cunning, he's a slick master of perception, taking on and taking out the competition and anyone standing in his way for more than two decades...

He is the unnamed fighter type, keeping stability where there isn't any...

He is Tarquin!

And in the other corner,

He's in it for the Evulz, keeping his enemies close, not caring if they want a fight so long as it pleases his need for death, mayhem, and destruction.

The crown signifies he's a Bad @__, never crass, too quick to sass and no heart, all brass.

He is the lich of the hour, a wizard's nightmare, world power, and an unholy stare...

He is Xykon!
---------------------------------------------

Honestly, if you read up above, both have their good points and I wouldn't be surprised if either of them decided to square off over a misunderstanding. But I doubt that Tarquin could take Xykon in a duel. Thing is, magic usually trumps fighters, especially in 3.5. And Xykon is known for beating things by the most basic tactic that works. Why get close to him and fight if all he has to do is fly and throw energy drains?

Not to doubt Tarquin but we've yet to see that killer ruthless instinct that we know that Xykon has. Is it too early to tell? Perhaps. Still, it may be fun to see what may happen between the two if they ever meet.

[AstralFire]

We have no reason to think that Tarquin is epic, as that's something that happens very rarely. We don't have enough data beyond that Tarquin can trounce a level 12 (13?) melee-focused bard robbed of his primary combat buff.

[Conuly]

And that Tarquin has survived for a very long time in this hellhole of a desert, and that he originally took down, what, 11 nations in just a few months? And it took twice that number to get rid of him. He's gotta be powerful.

However, he didn't get that powerful by being stupid. I'm sure that if/when Xykon shows up, Tarquin will go with discretion being the better part of valor and get out of there. Fast. Let the Empress - or whoever his latest patsy is - take care of things!

[AstralFire]

Being very smart, being a military leader, and having the requisite skills for survival to play that shellgame doesn't necessarily mean he's epic either. Again, not enough data. The Order of the Stick at level 13 way outpaces 99% of what they encounter even in a one-on-one scenario.

[Nilan8888]

Xykon's still got tops, IMO.

Tarquin would give him a bit of a workout, maybe, but Xykon still comes out on top -- and I don't think it would be as close as Xykon's encounters with Soon and Lirian, either. I think Tarquin would aquit himself well in terms of ability and get Xykon's attention, but he'd still be put to pasture before Xykon felt he was on the verge of defeat.

[Forum Explorer]

Well if Tarquin had his party backing him up and let his current pasty weaken Xykon first I can see them standing a decent chance.

Though if the full Team Evil was involved I doubt Tarquin's forces would have a chance.

[Lorin]

Well. I guess If will ever witness such a fight, when i think that Tarquin will try to make Xykon play by his own rules. For example in the zone of antimagic or overwise limit his abilities. But my bet is that we will see a battle between Xykon\Redcloak's army of goblins and empire of blood. That's the type of battle were Xykon's magic and Tarquin's leadership talents will be equally usefull.

[Mordaenor]

While my vote is firmly inthe Xykon camp, I do feel the need to point out one thing. For all Xykon's power, and intelligence, he DID get defeated once. By a not-so-epic level, single-class figter. With his bare hands. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Not that I expect THAT trick to work EVER AGAIN, but I'm just saying.

[Dr.Epic]

We have no reason to think Tarquin can stand his ground against an epic level lich whose proven to be so cunning in battle.

[factotum]

While my vote is firmly inthe Xykon camp, I do feel the need to point out one thing. For all Xykon's power, and intelligence, he DID get defeated once. By a not-so-epic level, single-class figter. With his bare hands. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Not that I expect THAT trick to work EVER AGAIN, but I'm just saying.

Actually, Xykon was not defeated by Roy's bare hands at all on that occasion...notice that he's barely inconvenienced by Roy knocking his head off. What defeated Xykon there was an epic-level magic rune built into Dorukan's Gate. Since each member of the Order of the Scribble chose to defend their gates in their own way, none of the others are likely to have gone in for epic magic wards like that!

Simple fact is that the fight on the back of the zombie dragon shows what will generally happen when a single-classed non-epic fighter tries to get in Xykon's way, and the results aren't pretty.

[Callista]

Depends on whether Tarquin has the opportunity to plan. Xykon doesn't plan very much, and that's his weakness.

[HalfTangible]

Actually, Xykon was not defeated by Roy's bare hands at all on that occasion...notice that he's barely inconvenienced by Roy knocking his head off. What defeated Xykon there was an epic-level magic rune built into Dorukan's Gate. Since each member of the Order of the Scribble chose to defend their gates in their own way, none of the others are likely to have gone in for epic magic wards like that!

Simple fact is that the fight on the back of the zombie dragon shows what will generally happen when a single-classed non-epic fighter tries to get in Xykon's way, and the results aren't pretty.

Not quite. That battle took place several hundred to several thousand (not sure which) feet off the ground. It's very unlikely that any fighter is going to be fighting Xykon in midair again, least of all on top of a platform Xykon can easily destroy. So no, no fall damage. Hell, that fight is a pretty unlikely scenario when you really think about it.

Having said that, Xykon would probably win because he can go into the sky anyway.


Depends on whether Tarquin has the opportunity to plan. Xykon doesn't plan very much, and that's his weakness.

Xykon doesn't NEED to plan. He just needs his spells.

[tanonx]

Tarquin's got the upper hand, I think. Not because of raw power, or minions to put between him and the enemy in a fight, but because he's cunning. His conquest has been expansive and relatively low-risk because of that. He knows pretty well how to attack someone by proxy, and it would be his only sensible option against Xykon. He's also shown patience and dedication to his work, enough to assemble half a continent under the covert command of him and his friends, and he's cautious enough to make sure he has an exit plan or two.

Tarquin would be a good choice for fighting against Xykon on the world stage, if only because it would be fairly simple for him to keep Xykon in the dark about who was really setting up the attacks. On the defensive, he could survive, not by hit points and high saves, but by disappearing and using experience from his time adventuring and being a shadow ruler. He'd likely be able to set up a trap or two to turn the tables, given enough time.

Overall, I think Tarquin is well suited to survival and endurance, which would be an interesting match against the power-based tactics Xykon tends to employ.

[Damon_Caskey]

I'm of the mind Tarquin is at or knocking on the door of epic. I used to think he was maybe had a level or two on the Order, or as I put it in another thread "about on par with Miko".

But the duel with Elan has promoted him to "several levels" on the Order in my reckoning, which puts him at or near epic. It's not just that him trouncing Elan with 0 effort whatsoever, it's that he had breezy fun doing it. Bard vs. combat class or not, a .75:1 AB class will still get its licks in against a 1:1 AB class of near level before going down. Elan didn't even manage to make Tarquin think it was a fight.

You can bring up countering the puns, but that has nothing to do with getting hit or not. The actual statement from Julio was that DS adds Charisma to damage; nothing at all was mentioned about a bonus to attack. So it didn't matter that Elan got his damage addition countered, he never connected to begin with. That's also considering Tarquin's primary weapon probably isn't a dagger. In real fights he hauls out the Sword/Board or his trusty BFA.

Now all that said, I do not think Tarquin could win a one on one duel with Xykon. The big X has plot armor, way too many mechanical advantages, and he knows how to exploit weaknesses. He's proven he can beat other epics face to face no problem.

What I DO think is if you look at the big picture, Tarquin is IMO, much more dangerous overall. Xykon relies on a McGuffin for his entire plan to work, and has failed at every turn thus far. His only backup is to move on like some kind of locust. Tarquin lost once, and turned that failure into a massive win. Xykon is the bigger world threat because of his goals, but that doesn't mean he's the baddest a** in town. Tarquin has been the one who gotter' done. What has Xykon actually accomplished besides blowing some stuff up and making Redcloak his bitch?

Unless Xykon has more at his disposal then we've seen, the BST empire trumps Team Evil in total force. A bunch of hobos and zombies backed up by a few high level casters just ain't enough against 3 empires. It took everything they had to drop a single city with weakened defenses run by narrow minded Paladins. I seriously doubt Team Evil could do the same against three ruthless armies headed up by an epic or near epic party that thinks just as underhandedly as they do.

It would depend on the situation, but if you take away plot, I think Redcloak would know better then to let Xykon provoke a full retaliation from Tarquin. Which wouldn't be all that hard since Tarquin wouldn't want to mess with Team Evil unless he had to. But if it did come down to an all out showdown, my money is on BST.

Xykon wins duels. Tarquin just wins.

DC

[DeltaEmil]

Xykon can spam Energy Drain.

Xykon can also spam Superior Dispelling.

Whatever magical items Tarquin would wear to protect himself from negative energy is quickly disabled.

Afterwards, he will end like Dorukan: As a grotesque corpse.

It absolutely doesn't matter how smart your opponent is, once you wield enough power. And Xykon is willing to let style slide if push comes to shove.

Only an epic character can defeat another epic threat. And even epic warrior-types still suck against epic spellcasters.

[silversaraph]

We have no reason to think Tarquin can stand his ground against an epic level lich whose proven to be so cunning in battle.

We also had no reason to believe that O-chul was as powerful as he is. There was no evidence at all, just the fact that he was a significant paladin of some sort. Besides that, I have no idea. I just don't think the idea can be dismissed so easily.

[Gorgondantess]

Heh. Funny. Tarquin vs. Xykon.
Maybe if he had his whole adventuring party and the empress of blood at her peak and all of his top soldiers (i.e. all who are better than level 1 warriors), he could give Xykon a run for his money. Xykon is an epic level sorcerer- i.e., the kind of guy who can change the world in 20 different ways 10 times a day- and he didn't get there just because he got lucky. If you've ever read Start of Darkness, Xykon is cunning- just as cunning as Tarquin. Oh, granted, he doesn't have a good head for strategy, and he doesn't do things like "plan", and much of the time he's not very practical... but in the end, in a "Let's kill each other as best we can" kind of scenario, nobody beats Xykon.
Of course, that's a moot point, as Xykon wouldn't take Tarquin seriously, and Tarquin is too smart to try to take Xykon head on. With careful planning and exploitations, Xykon can be... hoodwinked. But even then, you'd better make damn well sure he's hoodwinked for good, coz he'll come back with a vengeance. And once Xykon starts taking you seriously, you are seriously screwed. Tarquin is truly brilliant, but nothing can stand up to the unstoppable hurricane that is Xykon: the only strategy is to stay the F out of its way.

[TreesOfDeath]

This matchup is silly.

If Tarquin was strong enough to take down Xykon, he'd have done so and added Azure City to his collection

[AstralFire]

We also had no reason to believe that O-chul was as powerful as he is. There was no evidence at all, just the fact that he was a significant paladin of some sort. Besides that, I have no idea. I just don't think the idea can be dismissed so easily.

Yes, the possibility exists and isn't beyond the pale; that doesn't necessarily mean that the idea has real merit as a theory on existing evidence, either.

[NegativeFifteen]

Tarquin can counter PUNS. What the hell does Xykon have that is that impressive?

[Elfey]

I'm holding off judgment until we know the class of Tarquin. I also don't seem him as the type to fight unless it's worth it, he's got everything set up, and cuts off Xykon from the rest of his party to keep them out of it. But Xykon's pretty much the most powerful thing on the planet except for the Order of the scribble, and they're now mostly dead.

[DeltaEmil]

Tarquin can counter PUNS. What the hell does Xykon have that is that impressive? Absolute brutal cruelty that shatters the very soul of any living being.

[NegativeFifteen]

Absolute brutal cruelty that shatters the very soul of any living being.

But... PUNS. On top of that, Xykon was never the ripest cherry. Tarquin would somehow manipulate him into killing himself.

[DeltaEmil]

Only if Xykon is bored, because he needs a new stimulus.

And Xykon fights boredom off by killing something randomly in a horrible and demeaning manner.

However, Tarquin is smart. He'll sacrifice the entire populace of the western continent to Xykon, and make them fight themselves while being burned alive so that he may live on for a few seconds if needed, just so that Xykon won't strangle him alive or shoot a meteor swarm through any orifice that Tarquin wouldn't like to have penetrated.

That, or he'll pledge himself to become Xykon's expandable minion, and try to find a way to survive the lich lord's cruel antics by being necessary, like the prophet of the dark one tries day for day (and he's starting to become less useful for the dreaded lich lord at that).

[shadowkiller]

:xykon:: Let's shake on a fair fight.
Tarquin: paralyzed

Seriously O-Chul couldn't make that save on just a base lich ability. Tarquin wouldn't have a chance against real spells.

[AstralFire]

I don't think Tarquin would be dumb enough to try and shake with Xykon. What's more dramatic than a lawful person ignoring dueling etiquette because they're savvy to the fact that their opponent would use it against them?

[DeltaEmil]

It depends if he knows what abilities a lich has.

Although yeah, he'll probably rather not shake hands with an undead abomination who can slaughter an entire city by itself at a slight whim. It might confer negative energy cooties...

[shadowkiller]

I don't think Tarquin would be dumb enough to try and shake with Xykon. What's more dramatic than a lawful person ignoring dueling etiquette because they're savvy to the fact that their opponent would use it against them?

Very true but my point was more that if a base lich ability can take him out Tarquin doesn't stand a chance against Xykon's spells. Tarquin's only chance would be to run and hope that Xykon's poor memory causes him to forget about Tarquin.

[AstralFire]

I find it probable Xykon's out of his league, but I'm gonna ultimately stick to "not enough data" still.

[Conuly]

But... PUNS. On top of that, Xykon was never the ripest cherry. Tarquin would somehow manipulate him into killing himself.

I don't think Xykon is as stupid as all that. He acts stupid, and he's not big on planning, but he's not *actually* stupid.

Plus, he has an awful lot of raw power - and he's not afraid to use it - no matter how. If he somehow ran out of spells, he wouldn't be ashamed to just lob a few tons of rock at somebody.

[Dr.Epic]

We also had no reason to believe that O-chul was as powerful as he is. There was no evidence at all, just the fact that he was a significant paladin of some sort.

Um, yes we do. There's lots of evidence showing how powerful O-Chul is:

-Survived both the blast from a Gate (a blast that tore Miko in two) and flew through the air taking who knows how many d10 points of damage.
-Survived an acid breathing shark in acid when he was bound.
-Killed Jirix with a bar in one attack.
-Almost killed Red Cloak (proved tough enough to have him leave combat).

O-Chul's proven he can kick ass and he isn't enough for Xykon. Tarquin has yet to show any sort of power that could rival or even match Xykon.

[Hironomus]

I don't care what anyone says, definitely not an easy pick.
I love the idea of Tarquin winning and I think it would be possible, but in the long run I would expect him the be an interesting speed bump for Xykon. Note that speed bumps can do some real damage to your car or even kill you if you go over them too fast, and Xykon isn't one for caution. Ah what the heck, my money is on Tarquin. Go get him little guy.

[Gorgondantess]

Very true but my point was more that if a base lich ability can take him out Tarquin doesn't stand a chance against Xykon's spells. Tarquin's only chance would be to run and hope that Xykon's poor memory causes him to forget about Tarquin.

Poor memory?
"Don't confuse not knowing with not caring.":xykon:
Xykon is to Tarquin as Tarquin is to Elan. Tarquin knows Elan was trying to kill him, but he's so out of Elan's league that he can just shrug it off. Same with Xykon: he'd still know Tarquin had it out for him, he just wouldn't give a damn.

[Nevereatcars]

Tarquin would beat Xykon the same way Miko beat Xykon: By getting torn in two and losing his paladinship. Or, y'know, there's always the PLAUSIBLE possibilities. :smallsmile:

[olthar]

I'm relatively sure there are hundreds of threads in these forums about how much more powerful spellcasters are than tanks. Add in epic and it is even more unbalanced.

Yes, Xykon is not optimized (plus sorcerer) but it wouldn't even be close if Tarquin was a confirmed epic character. As an unconfirmed epic you would need to create a long story about how Tarquin thought about everything ahead of time and Xykon walked in with his eyes closed (oh, and the whole plan everything out is a scry and die technique, which is a wizard thing).

[Zevox]

We don't have enough data beyond that Tarquin can trounce a level 12 (13?) melee-focused bard robbed of his primary combat buff.
Correction: a level 14 or up bard. Elan is known to have exactly 13 Bard levels from the strip where he talked about picking up his first 5th-level spells, and he has at least one Dashing Swordsman level. The Order in general averages level 14-15 at this point.

But yes, you are correct, we have little real idea of what Tarquin's actual level is.

In any event, such a conflict is unlikely to happen. The two have never met, and likely never will. With Xykon teleporting over the western continent with a small group this time instead of going full-blown invasion, he has no reason to bother with Tarquin unless the Empire of Blood's capital happens to be sitting on the gate. Which isn't completely beyond the realm of possibility I suppose, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If they were to fight, I'd have money on Xykon. From a rules perspective, he's the single most powerful force in the comic that we've seen short of the gods. His minimum level has been pegged at 26, he has a batch of powerful offensive spells at his disposal (and epic spells, as shown by his ability to use Superb Dispelling - I sure wouldn't be betting on that being his only one), he's been smarter than he acts ever since he became a Lich, and being a Lich he has potent built-in defenses even before magical ones come into play. Plus he has powerful allies of his own in Redcloak and the Monster in the Darkness, should it come to that.

Tarquin appears to be a warrior of some sort personally, not the best suited to fighting a force like Xykon. Even if he were epic, Xykon could still take him out any number of ways, including simple Energy Drain spam - he already took out one epic character that way. Tarquin's armies are no threat to Xykon, not with his Lich DR and ability to fly. And all his cunning for political and military manipulation can't help Tarquin against the likes of Xykon, because he simply does not play those games. He is after the gates, plain and simple. If Tarquin stands between him and one of those, he'll blast his way through him. If not, he'll ignore him as inconsequential. Either way, I don't see Tarquin being able to do much about it.

Zevox

[Callista]

I think those of you pointing out the power of Xykon's magic are missing that Tarquin would, if he could use his gift for strategy, never come within range of Xykon's spells--or even Xykon's knowledge of his existence--to begin with. For the most part, it seems that if Tarquin has decided that you're a dangerous enemy, chances are you will never know who he is or what he is doing until you're already dead.

[Zevox]

I think those of you pointing out the power of Xykon's magic are missing that Tarquin would, if he could use his gift for strategy, never come within range of Xykon's spells--or even Xykon's knowledge of his existence--to begin with. For the most part, it seems that if Tarquin has decided that you're a dangerous enemy, chances are you will never know who he is or what he is doing until you're already dead.
Yeah, good luck with that. Finding anyone on the planet who can actually destroy Xykon is not an easy feat. You'll need an epic-level threat, or at least a very high-level party of skilled adventurers, to stand any chance. And whoever it is has to be willing to work for the likes of Tarquin or whatever intermediaries he finds.

Oh, and don't forget his phylactery, the location of which is at this point totally unknown, and which is warded so heavily against scrying that even Xykon can't find it that way. Again, good luck with that.

Zevox

[Conuly]

Finding anyone on the planet who can actually destroy Xykon is not an easy feat.

OotPCs spoiler:

Durkon did it. Two guys, in fact. Upon being rejected from the Order because it was "full" they went and stormed the gates of hell. Again.

Of course, that was obviously a joke, but still. It's not absolutely impossible.

[Felixc-91]

X vs T one on one. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
X vs T with T using a intermediaries. not likely, but possible.
X vs T and company where company consists of T's adventuring party and a few hired mook spell casters when T has had time to plan.... assuming T and his fellows are epic or maybe level 19/20 this probably has the best shot. maybe not for T surviving, but for his side winning, sure.
X and Gobbotopia vs T and BST. please?:smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

So no, no fall damage. Hell, that fight is a pretty unlikely scenario when you really think about it.

Having said that, Xykon would probably win because he can go into the sky anyway.


That was pretty much my point! Once Xykon stopped playing around with Roy and got serious, he just flew up out of his reach and then bombarded him. The fact Roy survived the Meteor Shower doesn't mean he would have survived Xykon's next spell--all it would mean is that he'd have a whole extra round to contemplate the futility of his existence before dying. The fight on the dragon also proved that Roy can't one-hit-kill Xykon just by hitting him with his sword (he can't even do it with SEVERAL hits), and he'd need to do that to avoid the situation I just described.

[Souhiro]

Face to face, Xykon wins. He's epic while Tarquin don't seems to be.

But I think that Tarquin could foil Xykon's plan, and even destroy him, if he can do it indirectly.

I mean: Xykon has really huge CHA (At least 19) but the only times I recall he used was in just one bluff in Dungeon Crawling Fools. Tarquin seems to have a TON of Charisma, being the power behind the power. He surely has that "Leadership" feat. And he is cunning, more his plans are better than anything Xykon has show us until now.

Xykon being a master tactician would be an a$$pvll, like would be Tarquin having an "Armor of Unlimited Epic Wishes". So I think that Tarquin could instigate anxiety among Xykon men, instigate treason feelings among Redcloak, MiTD and maybe even Tsukiko, and having the Soul Hidey Thing destroyed. All of this without putting a single stain his hands.

Then it would be matter of sending high level adventurers (When the Order will get to Xykon, they surely be Lvl-15-17, so they could qualify) and without Soul Hidey Thing, Xykon is... just less Xykon.


So, Tarquin indeed is one of the best bets against Xykon, but without geting up of his chair.

[factotum]

I mean: Xykon has really huge CHA (At least 19) but the only times I recall he used was in just one bluff in Dungeon Crawling Fools.

I think he's using it all the time, actually. Part of the reason Redcloak is still with him, even after all Xykon has done, must be his charisma. Also, high CHA doesn't mean you have to be likeable, it just means you have massive force of personality--it's intimidation rather than persuasion, but the end result is the same.

[Souhiro]

I think he's using it all the time, actually. Part of the reason Redcloak is still with him, even after all Xykon has done, must be his charisma. Also, high CHA doesn't mean you have to be likeable, it just means you have massive force of personality--it's intimidation rather than persuasion, but the end result is the same.

If you haven't ever seen 'Naruto' there is a character, Gaara, who wears a silly costume, carries a huge jar in his back filled with sand, hasn't any eyebrows, never smile and has "Love, please!" tatooed in his forehead. That's the character you will laugh onto... until he starts killing people using the sand as giant arms, or crushing until tons of pressure, or just becoming a giant monster.


Being TRULY Charismatic isn't about intimidating using the force, is intimidating just by being there. And if Xykon wasn't able to trigger Meteor Swarms so happily, he would be only another stupid skeleton roaming the world.


And Redcloack is with him because he tried to leave Xykon and joined a peaceful Goblin Village with his brother and niece, only to have almost all of them killed, and the village burned, by Xikon's hands.
The only moment that RC had to get free from Xykon grasp was to smath his very own Holy Symbol, which incidentally was Xykon's philactery, when Xykon was killed. But alas, RC hasn't any backstory then.

[erictheredd]

Um, didn't Tarquin just launch the most powerful weapon at his disposal against Xykon?

Tarquin knows that the only way to defeat the most powerful villain on earth is with a bunch of heroes who will eventually succeed despite ridiculous odds. The plot demands it. That is the most effective scheme he knows of and guess what--- its going to work. Now Tarquin just sits back and lets his weapons do all of the dirty and dangerous work for him

[Souhiro]

Um, didn't Tarquin just launch the most powerful weapon at his disposal against Xykon?

If you didn't read OotS #761, Tarquin is more powerful than Elan. Marlack (I think that the lizardfolk's name is that) is giving advices to Durkon, so Marlack is at the worst at Durkon's level of clerical power.

Alas, still I'm fearing that Tarquin, who is a better character at every panel he is drawn, won't survive this volume

[Zevox]

So I think that Tarquin could instigate anxiety among Xykon men, instigate treason feelings among Redcloak, MiTD and maybe even Tsukiko, and having the Soul Hidey Thing destroyed. All of this without putting a single stain his hands.
*laughter*

Oh, that's just silly. You do know what that would cause Xykon to do, right? He'd just kill whoever was acting treasonous, eliminating them and intimidating the rest of his forces, give Redcloak's mantle to some other Goblin like he threatened to do earlier if he was one of the ones doing that, and move on. This is the guy who kills his own forces for fun - if he doesn't even need a reason to kill his followers, they know full well that he won't stop to think twice about doing it if he has a reason, and none of them are capable of actually defeating him (only Redcloak might even be able to put up a fight). As such, there's no way you could get all of his forces to turn on him. Hell, even if you did, he'd just kill 'em all and go find new ones. He's already gone through a couple of batches of Goblin lackeys, what's one more to him?

Zevox

[shadowkiller]

If you didn't read OotS #761, Tarquin is more powerful than Elan.

That doesn't mean Tarquin is a higher level though, all that shows is that he is better a melee than a Bard. A good fighter or warblade (or other ToB class) using counters should be able to do exactly what we saw Tarquin just do to Elan at several levels lower than Elan.

[erictheredd]

Ahh, Elan's power (and the power of the Oots, for that matter) does not truely depend on stats, it depends on the story. We all know that they will eventually cause, in one way or another, the decease of Xykon. Tarquin, knowing and respecting "procedure", knows as sure as we do that this will happen and as such, he is launching his most powerful weapon--- not a bard, but a protagonist, which is much more powerful.

[13arrage]

Xykon is an epic-level sorcerer. Which you might notice is a primary caster.



Tarquin is at best a high-level something melee. Probably fighter, god help us. Which you'll notice is not a primary caster.


So 1v1 isn't a contest.
Any other forms of engagement have too many factors to determine.

[Souhiro]

*laughter*

Oh, that's just silly. You do know what that would cause Xykon to do, right? He'd just kill whoever was acting treasonous, eliminating them and intimidating the rest of his forces, give Redcloak's mantle to some other Goblin like he threatened to do earlier if he was one of the ones doing that, and move on. This is the guy who kills his own forces for fun - if he doesn't even need a reason to kill his followers, they know full well that he won't stop to think twice about doing it if he has a reason, and none of them are capable of actually defeating him (only Redcloak might even be able to put up a fight). As such, there's no way you could get all of his forces to turn on him. Hell, even if you did, he'd just kill 'em all and go find new ones. He's already gone through a couple of batches of Goblin lackeys, what's one more to him?

You're just assuming that when an agent of Tarquin instigates something, the instigated hobbos put a sign over their heads "I'm opossing Xykon!". You said that he is the guy who kills his own forces for fun. But he is also the one who isn't able to see beyond his nose. An he's a noseless stick skeleton. Given the chances, he could kill non-rebel hobbos mistakin them for rebel hobbos. An that would put a lot more rebellion.


And don't forget that RedCloack is a goblin messiah! The put a HUGE sign with his face in Azure City. Killing him could have swarms of hobbos going to him. And do you know what would happen if 500 hobbos attack Xykon at the very same time, and Xykon tries to blast them?
If you said 500 attacks of oportunity, you're right.

[faustin]

And don't forget that RedCloack is a goblin messiah! The put a HUGE sign with his face in Azure City. Killing him could have swarms of hobbos going to him. And do you know what would happen if 500 hobbos attack Xykon at the very same time, and Xykon tries to blast them?
If you said 500 attacks of oportunity, you're right.
Yesterday 10:49 PM


Ummm.... Let me think: fly + superb dispell (for the casters) + massive lighting bolt + massive fireballs + meteor swarms , etc.... and finally + massive zombify = 500 hobbozombies. Yes, that would be a classic Xykon answer to the problem.

Have you forget Redcloak little chat with Jirix in strip #704: """Xykon finds the idea of leaving you to dance on the paladins´graves marginally more amusing that the idea of slaughtering all of you"". No I don´t think Xykon would be impresses by a sudden minion rebellion.

[Souhiro]

Ummm.... Let me think: fly + superb dispell (for the casters) + massive lighting bolt + massive fireballs + meteor swarms , etc.... and finally + massive zombify = 500 hobbozombies. Yes, that would be a classic Xykon answer to the problem.

I see it more like:

- Fly: 500 attacks of opportunity. He WILL get an 1 on one ofhis 500 Concentration Check, so the Fly spell will be ruined.
- Try fo Fly again = 500 attacks of opportunity, and again...
- Fireball at his feet: 500 attacks of opportunity, man.
- Paralyzing Touch: It don't provoke attack of opportunity, but he gets rid of just ONE hobbo. 499 remains.

You know, in Vampire the Masquerade (And Requiem) even the ancients have their fears about hunters during day. So, Xykon can have a lot of arcane power, but you know? An army is power. And a HUGE Hobbo Army is a HUGE power.
And perhaps RC could put an Antimagic Field Xykon (in SoD he was able to cast Regeneration, Lvl-7) and let the hobbos run the Smash-The-Skeleton-Party.


The End of SoD had RC totally devastated, mentally destroyed by Xykon and in fear of him. My point is that Tarquin, as The Master Tactician who he is, and a Great Chessmaster and The Great Politician, could be able to use it.

[SPoD]

Ahh, Elan's power (and the power of the Oots, for that matter) does not truely depend on stats, it depends on the story. We all know that they will eventually cause, in one way or another, the decease of Xykon. Tarquin, knowing and respecting "procedure", knows as sure as we do that this will happen and as such, he is launching his most powerful weapon--- not a bard, but a protagonist, which is much more powerful.

This, exactly. The world of OOTS operates by narrative conventions, and by understanding these conventions, Tarquin has a power that Xykon will never understand: The power of Plot. All Tarquin has to do is give as much assistance to Elan, Roy, and the rest as possible, then lay low for a while. The Order will eventually triumph over Evil, then Tarquin is free to continue his own schemes. At least until he meets his own comeuppance.

However, if it did come to a physical confrontation somehow, I think we should remember that Tarquin has five allies as powerful as he is, one of which is a 15th+ level cleric who lives in the same castle. With even twenty minutes of preparation, Tarquin could probably Send for and gather his entire party, as each of the other two pairs looks like it includes a caster that could Teleport. Tarquin plus Malack plus four other equal-level adventurers may have a decent chance, especially if they're all hovering around 20th level. Tarquin is likely a better strategist than Redcloak. In fact, I think it would take Tarquin only one or two rounds to figure out that he should kill Redcloak first, since he's a better tactician than Xykon. And Malack probably has tons of anti-undead spells prepared every day as the high priest of a Death god, so he can hold off Xykon for a round while Tarquin and his other four allies demolish the non-epic goblin.

A straight one-on-one, though? Tarquin's dead in 2-3 rounds, tops.

[fibonacciseries]

even with time to prepare, T can't beat X one on one.
T could only beat X with time to prepare, and if said preparations involve manipulating other people
more to the point, T would need to find a way to beat X without X becoming suspicious of anything going on, causing him to start flying (he does cast Overland Flight every morning as a regular part of his routine after all) and Meteor Swarm-ing the vicinity
Basically, T needs to find a way to surround X w/ high-level people who are actually on T's side, without X becoming the tiniest bit suspicious of any of them.

[Nilan8888]

What I DO think is if you look at the big picture, Tarquin is IMO, much more dangerous overall. Xykon relies on a McGuffin for his entire plan to work, and has failed at every turn thus far. His only backup is to move on like some kind of locust. Tarquin lost once, and turned that failure into a massive win. Xykon is the bigger world threat because of his goals, but that doesn't mean he's the baddest a** in town. Tarquin has been the one who gotter' done. What has Xykon actually accomplished besides blowing some stuff up and making Redcloak his bitch?

This is actually a pretty good argument, and it's making me think a few things over again.

Consensus seems to be that if it were just a straight 1 on 1 duel, that Tarquin would lose. But since when would Tarquin be foolish enough to get drawn into that situation?

I think the biggest achilles heel Xykon has... and it's a glaring one... is that he's LAZY. His entire display with RedCloak after Darth V's raid was mostly just a tantrum blaming him for things that is really Xykon's fault more than RedCloak's, if anything. Yes, RedCloak persuaded Xykon to take his foot off the gas pedal, but Xykon was the one really wasting time: RedCloak was spending every day tending to what he REALLY wanted to get done, while Xykon pretty much sat around and did nothing until Darth V showed up. It's only now that he got smacked around a little that he's stood up and tried to make some changes like having Tsukiko look over the ritual.

Tarquin appears to be anything but lazy. He apparently spends his free time learning about obscure fighting techniques that would, when you think about it, be unlikely for him to encounter for years at a time. Xykon had to be convinced by RedCloak just to put up a few defensive wards around his sanctum. Even in Xykon's struggle with Darth V, he had to somewhat rely on RedCloak to do a little investigation and find out a soul splice was going on.

Xykon's a pretty inefficient guy, and it seems he gets by on account of the fact he's just that much ahead of everyone else in terms of power. When he gets confronted with something that might be a challenge, he starts foundering pretty quickly becuase his mettle isn't often tested, and he can't be bothered testing it himself. RedCloak relies on Xykon's power, but Xykon might not be noticing that he actually relies on RedCloak a fair bit as well.

So if Tarquin had enough 'prep' time and avoided a personal duel, you're right -- it could be conceivable he could take down Team Evil, because he seems to be a master planner and tactician, whereas Team Evil's tactician -- RedCloak -- is merely competent.

[Wikiality]

Xykon versus Tarquin? That could be interesting, but perhaps a little one-sided. If you wanted to give Tarquin a real challenge, it would be better to go with someone more his speed: like Lord Shojo or maybe Kubota. Sure, in a one-on-one fight, Xykon would win. It doesn’t matter what level Tarquin might believably be or what class he is, an epic level lich’s mechanics would just be too much for him to counter directly. The thing is, Tarquin would never have to engage in a one-on-one fight with Xykon and would be smart enough to realize that.

Tarquin is he is a master illusionist –pardon the analogy. He and his allies have successfully created the illusion that the Western Continent is this divided, war torn place, with kingdoms and tyrants disappearing like the shifting sands. The lie they have created is so convincing that even the mighty elves to the north seem to have bought into it. Even if they knew what is going on, they have no reason to care; because the empires to the south are set up in such a way that they don’t immediately pose a threat to the elves. Even if Tarquin isn’t epic level, that deception is.

It is that deft touch that would allow him do things to Xykon that the lich really has no defense against. The fights and conflicts Xykon has won against epic level opponents have been won by other’s intervention, his opponents choosing to play to Xykon’s strengths, or both. Lirian, Dorukan, the ancient silver dragon, Soon, and Darth Vaasuivius all were beaten due to those mitigating factors. Remove those factors, and Xykon’s story would be very different.

That is something Tarquin has the tools to do. He also has a huge advantage I think most people are overlooking: Xykon would love Tarquin! The man is not only a “professional minion”, but he is also Evil with a capital E. He had a bunch of escaped slaves rounded up, arranged to spell his son’s name, and then light on fire. That is the sort of thing Xykon would get giddy about. A direct confrontation would not happen, because Tarquin would have Xykon in the palm of his hands. After all, this is a game Tarquin has mastered, even going so far as to dupe a red dragon of an undetermined age category. The only hope Xykon has of escaping Tarquin’s honey pot lies in Redcloak noticing the family resemblance, because Xykon certainly won’t; but that scenario opens up a whole new can of worms for Team Evil.

Redcloak making a stink about Elan and Tarquin’s connection plays right into Tarquin’s hands. From there, Tarquin can easily deduce that he is dealing with the “scenery-chewing” villain his son is fighting and not just some mook trying to become the next tyrant on the Western Continent. After all, Tarquin was able to deduce Team Evil’s existence from far less data; and while discovery might have spelled doom early in the series, Redcloak’s word isn’t worth much anymore. That means a man of Tarquin’s charisma should be able to easily make that Bluff roll and keep Xykon on his side. That same charisma and analytical skill could then be used to slow Team Evil down. There are countless points of tension in Team Evil, from Redcloak’s agenda to Tsukiko’s schoolgirl crush, which could be used to pit the members of the group against each other. It never has to come to blows; Tarquin just has to cause enough drama to slow them down. Really, if he can pull of his empire hustle, lighting that powder keg should be easy.

Something that could really hurt Xykon in the long term, but Tarquin can’t plan for, is what I call the O-Chul Effect. Tarquin might be evil, but he is certainly a loving person and could easily fall into the role of father figure. Maybe that observation is false and only applies to his interactions with his own son, but if Tarquin could win over the MitD that could be real trouble for Team Evil. The thing about Tarquin is that, just like O-Chul, he seems a big proponent of self-determination—and survival. You can see this both in his acceptance of Elan’s life choices and in Tarquin’s own dogged refusal to give up on his dreams. Continued exposure to that philosophy could create an even more willful, and maybe slightly manipulative, MitD.

Even if Tarquin’s plotting and charisma fails to win over Xykon and Team Evil, that doesn’t mean Tarquin has lost the fight yet. Just because Xykon knows what is going on, doesn’t mean he cares. As long as Tarquin proves he is a useful tool for Xykon’s search for the Gates, and not a direct threat, there is no reason for Xykon to get blast happy.

That should be easy enough to do, considering Tarquin doesn’t need to confront Xykon directly in order to destroy him. Heck, Tarquin is free to provide Xykon with a bunch of information regarding Girard Draketooth, not only to appease the lich, but to get him moving in the right direction; because at the end of the day, all Tarquin really needs to do is give the Order of the Stick enough time to reach Draketooth and warn him of Xykon’s arrival.

[DeltaEmil]

- Fly: 500 attacks of opportunity. He WILL get an 1 on one ofhis 500 Concentration Check, so the Fly spell will be ruined.The maximum amounts of attacks of opportunity that Xykon can suffer are restricted to those who have enough reach to threaten him. And that number will be below 12.

Also, he has damage reduction, is immune to criticals, and cannot be harmed in any meaningful way by any hordes of goblinoids.

No, epic spellcasters will shape the world, while entire armies are nothing more but speed-bumps.



- Try fo Fly again = 500 attacks of opportunity, and again...
- Fireball at his feet: 500 attacks of opportunity, man.
- Paralyzing Touch: It don't provoke attack of opportunity, but he gets rid of just ONE hobbo. 499 remains.There is nothing to stop Xykon. Nothing.
And they can't even grapple him, because by virtue of having higher levels, he's actually a more powerful melee combatant than all 499 survivors.

You know, in Vampire the Masquerade (And Requiem) even the ancients have their fears about hunters during day. So, Xykon can have a lot of arcane power, but you know? An army is power. And a HUGE Hobbo Army is a HUGE power.D&D works with different rules. And epic characters in D&D are so close to the gods that the low-hd-mooks have indeed become irrelevant.



And perhaps RC could put an Antimagic Field Xykon (in SoD he was able to cast Regeneration, Lvl-7) and let the hobbos run the Smash-The-Skeleton-Party.
The hobgoblins can't do anything to hurt or even hinder Xykon, neither in melee, nor in magical combat.

Nothing.

The End of SoD had RC totally devastated, mentally destroyed by Xykon and in fear of him. My point is that Tarquin, as The Master Tactician who he is, and a Great Chessmaster and The Great Politician, could be able to use it.The Dark One's order supersedes Redcloak's personal feelings. And the Dark One has ordered his prophet to suck it up and work with the lich lord, so that he will gain control over the being that destroyed another world a long time ago.

[Chirios]

"Hey you know what really gets under my skin? Proverbially, of course? A century of wizards looking down their damn noses at me. I know people think I'm stupid. Because I'm not a wizard. Because I get bored easily. Because I have no interest in strategy or tactics or contingency planning. But see, I've learned a lot over the years since I died. A lot more than I learned during my life. And now I see planning doesn't matter. Strategy doesn't matter. Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed. For example, all I need to do is keep smacking you with Energy Drains, and eventually you won't be able to cast any of your fancy spells at all. Because yes, I am a sorcerer — and this magic is in my bones, not cribbed-off "Magic for Dummies". And I can keep casting the same friggin' spell at you until you roll over and die. You can have your finely-tuned watch -- give me the sledgehammer to the face any day."

It has been proven several times that Xykon is not a pushover, not an idiot, not easily beaten. He is very good at killing things, and just because Tarquin can disarm Elan does not mean he could beat an epic level lich.

[Conuly]

The Dark One's order supersedes Redcloak's personal feelings. And the Dark One has ordered his prophet to suck it up and work with the lich lord, so that he will gain control over the being that destroyed another world a long time ago.

Nothing that specific. He ordered Redcloak not to mess up the plan. We have no record of him saying one thing about working with the lich. For all we know, he's still not happy that Redcloak and his brother decided to trust Xykon in the first place.

[Tyndmyr]

Correction: a level 14 or up bard. Elan is known to have exactly 13 Bard levels from the strip where he talked about picking up his first 5th-level spells, and he has at least one Dashing Swordsman level. The Order in general averages level 14-15 at this point.

But yes, you are correct, we have little real idea of what Tarquin's actual level is.

That gives Tarquin a minimum of "somewheres close to epic". Where exactly, we don't know, nor do we know Tarquin's build with a great deal of accuracy. However, if a level 14+ bard has absolutely no ability to hit him, he can reasonably be assumed to be at least a coupla levels higher. Given that he used to be a former adventurer, we can assume those are PC classes, and he may have continued to level since retiring. So...he's at bare minimum, level 16+. Possibly quite a lot higher.

We can assume that his mental stats are pretty solid as well. He's certainly very genre savvy, and has a great deal of knowledge about even obscure builds and tactics. We can assume he's got a solid character build, and pretty much always has a plan.

In addition, we know he's bedecked with magic items, and cost is probably not a significant object here. Anyone who doesn't mind giving away a secondary ring of regeneration apparently has quite the stash. If WBL guidelines are in play, this might be a clue. Even if not, it indicates a great deal of power.

Even discounting the power given from position and cleverness, he's almost certainly no slouch in combat, and he probably has options for dealing with a reasonably standard sorcerer, even a very high level one. It's also quite probable that he knows of our lich buddy, and may even know something of his fighting style. After all, he is shown to have knowledge of other epic types that most people don't. Due to his lower profile, the reverse is less likely to be true.

Xykon is no slouch either, but he is arrogant. Despite having access to a great deal of power, he rarely uses what he has with the same finesse we've seen from Tarquin. Therefore, in a duel, I'd say it'd be quite close, with advantage slightly to Tarquin due to knowledge and preparation.

[DeltaEmil]

And what magical items are going to protect him from a superior dispelling, shutting down the magical items for enough rounds that allow Xykon to follow up with several utterances of energy drain?

It doesn't matter how smart you are, how fast your army of evil can conquer a wartorn continent, how genre-savvy you are (although Xykon is actually also equally genre-savvy), how much wealth you possess, if your enemy has enough raw force that he can obliterate all of these advantages singlehandedly.

The greatest heroes of the world, the Order of the Scribble, have proven themselves so far powerless to stop the onslaught of Xykon, the lich lord. The last remaining one is a powerful illusionist and tracker, who was so dumb and callous that he has inadvertantly informed said lich lord about the true location of the gates...

[Forum Explorer]

There's no real evidence of this but I suspect that Tarquin and his party are at or close to Redcloak's level. So 17+.

If Tarquin was able to convince Redcloak that Xykon is a threat to 'the Plan' then he can grab another high level character. If the fight happened soon he could likely grab the Order of the Stick as well. Not to mention the minions of BST and the red dragon ruler.

While you can talk about how much power Xykon has and how no minon can harm him they can use up his spells. I think Tarquin can actrually muster enough rescources to bring down Xykon through sheer attrition.

Also since Tarquin isn't above allying with the good guys you can bet he would try and get the pallys and elves to help as well. Perhaps whatever bronze or brass dragons he knows about. Or even more blue dragons. And with some clever manipulation Tarquin would time it to attack after Xykon had just finished fighting Girand. Or just get Girand to fight with him agianst Xykon.

We also still don't know Tarquin's class. I'm guessing something from Tome of Battle that gives him manouvers and stances. Something that lets him switch up his fighting style seems appropriate for what we've seen of Tarquin so far. Also he likely knows all the weaknesses/strengths of a lich already and would create appropriate counter measures.

By himself Tarquin would probaly last about as long as O-Chul or Roy did. Can take a couple spells and piss Xykon off, but would get destroyed when he got serious.

[Tyndmyr]

And what magical items are going to protect him from a superior dispelling, shutting down the magical items for enough rounds that allow Xykon to follow up with several utterances of energy drain?

Ring of Counterspelling. Incidentally, that's a really powerful item in general against sorcerers, provided you know their spell list.


It doesn't matter how smart you are, how fast your army of evil can conquer a wartorn continent, how genre-savvy you are (although Xykon is actually also equally genre-savvy), how much wealth you possess, if your enemy has enough raw force that he can obliterate all of these advantages singlehandedly.

Im assuming that, for whatever reason, it's personal, and neither side can use their massive army of doom. That's an entirely different fight.


The greatest heroes of the world, the Order of the Scribble, have proven themselves so far powerless to stop the onslaught of Xykon, the lich lord. The last remaining one is a powerful illusionist and tracker, who was so dumb and callous that he has inadvertantly informed said lich lord about the true location of the gates...

Well, lets keep in mind that they were seperated, and Xykon isn't facing off against all of them directly, merely whatever defenses they left behind. In D&D, all sorts of dungeons have been created by ridiculously powerful wizards for whatever reasons. Being able to survive the dungeon isn't the same as being able to defeat the wizard.

Now, Xykon does have lots and lots of power, but it is almost exclusively in the form of spells, with a side order of magic items. It isn't in stealth or planning, neither of which he's a fan of.

Therefore, in any conflict, we can assume Tarquin is the initiator. At high level combats, you have rocket tag, with ablative defenses. The question is mostly who gets a shot through the others defenses first. The additional knowledge and planning is really a lot of help for this.

[Jagos]

And with this newest comic, I'm certainly convinced that perhaps Xykon and Tarquin should meet. Either that or Tarquin isn't going to be able to get exactly what he wants.

But good gods, is he Magnificent.

[DeltaEmil]

Ring of Counterspelling. Incidentally, that's a really powerful item in general against sorcerers, provided you know their spell list. Are we talking about that ring that can only be used against a specific spell from level 1 to 6? Because that would be useless against an epic spell...


Im assuming that, for whatever reason, it's personal, and neither side can use their massive army of doom. That's an entirely different fight. Without the army of doom to buy Tharquin enough time so that he can flee and hide forever, he'll just die quicker...

Well, lets keep in mind that they were seperated, and Xykon isn't facing off against all of them directly, merely whatever defenses they left behind. In D&D, all sorts of dungeons have been created by ridiculously powerful wizards for whatever reasons. Being able to survive the dungeon isn't the same as being able to defeat the wizard. He bested and annihilated Dorukan and Lirian, the two epic spellcasters responsible for creating the seals on the gates.

Now, Xykon does have lots and lots of power, but it is almost exclusively in the form of spells, with a side order of magic items. It isn't in stealth or planning, neither of which he's a fan of.What use is stealth or planning against an undead abomination that can slaughter the greatest heroes of the world in a few rounds? What plan or stealthy action can a mere mortal use against a being with epic magic and powerful undead immunities? No matter how cool and dread lordish Tarquin overlooks his dominion, unless he turns himself into a death knight and gains magical abilities on his own, there is no way save for a deus ex machinae to even stand a chance against Xykon.

Therefore, in any conflict, we can assume Tarquin is the initiator. At high level combats, you have rocket tag, with ablative defenses. The question is mostly who gets a shot through the others defenses first. The additional knowledge and planning is really a lot of help for this.Tarquin still plays normal tag. Also, the biggest mistake is to believe that Xykon couldn't be the initiator. He's only bored and makes his slave-priest work out the details, while he goes around butchering children for fun. But we do know (or at least must suspect) that he's starting to remedy his reliance upon the prophet of the dark one... Xykon is not dumb.

[Zevox]

You said that he is the guy who kills his own forces for fun. But he is also the one who isn't able to see beyond his nose.
I take it you haven't read Start of Darkness. Do not underestimate Xykon's intelligence. He's no genius, but he's no idiot either. He was once as dumb as he acts, but he hasn't been since becoming a Lich. To quote him: "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."


Killing him could have swarms of hobbos going to him. And do you know what would happen if 500 hobbos attack Xykon at the very same time, and Xykon tries to blast them?
If you said 500 attacks of oportunity, you're right.
Oh boy, that is a silly assertion.

For one, there is no way for so many creatures to get AoOs on anyone, ever. The maximum number that can surround one medium-size or smaller character is 9, plus another 12 (I think) with 2-space reach weapons (if such are available).

Point two, if you honestly think an epic-level caster like Xykon doesn't have enough concentration skill to automatically succeed on a simple DC 20 cast defensively check, I've got a bridge to sell you. He was, you'll recall, surprised at Darth V's inability to make a concentration check against his ward runes, calling it a "simple" one. (Oh, and a natural 1 is not an auto-fail on skill checks, since I see you're unaware of that.)

Third, even if he didn't have enough concentration to cast defensively automatically, he has DR 15/magic and bludgeoning and immunity to to critical hits just by virtue of being a Lich, so there's scant little chance of him taking any damage from any attack. And even if he did, it would be so low after that DR that he'd just shrug it off and cast anyway.

Lastly, from what we've seen, he casts Overland Flight on himself every morning. And that lasts more than a full day at his level. All he has to do is fly up and away from anyone coming at him and he's safe even from such pathetic attempts as his forces could make against him. Unless you know of a way to get those rebels a bunch of magical bludgeoning ranged weapons.


There's no real evidence of this but I suspect that Tarquin and his party are at or close to Redcloak's level. So 17+.
Redcloak's minimum confirmed level is 15, actually. The best information we have on that is that he is known to be able to cast 8th-level spells.

Zevox

[Wikiality]

The greatest heroes of the world, the Order of the Scribble, have proven themselves so far powerless to stop the onslaught of Xykon, the lich lord.
Both Lirian and Soon had their boots so far up Xykon's backside that it took some serious plot armour to bail him out. Face it, Xykon might be 5-0, but he would have never gotten that far without some serious backup.

Also, despite all his crowing about strategy not mattering, it was his "foolproof plan" that carried the day against Dorukan. Actually, it was Dorukan yeilding his main advantage and trying to go hammer versus hammer with Xykon, but the plan played a role.


The last remaining one is a powerful illusionist and tracker, who was so dumb and callous that he has inadvertantly informed said lich lord about the true location of the gates...
I must of missed that bit of information, what page is that again? Also, when did Serini die?

[DeltaEmil]

Both Lirian and Soon had their boots so far up Xykon's backside that it took some serious plot armour to bail him out. Face it, Xykon might be 5-0, but he would have never gotten that far without some serious backup.Xykon, the old sorceror with grey hair was not being take seriously by Lirian, and was easily incapacitated by her "allies".

Xykon, the lich lord, broke the elven druid's neck with his bare claws.

Xykon, the lich lord survived gods knows how many rounds against the deathless paladin Soon and the ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guards, all alone, until his slave priest came to his aide.

Also, despite all his crowing about strategy not mattering, it was his "foolproof plan" that carried the day against Dorukan. Actually, it was Dorukan yeilding his main advantage and trying to go hammer versus hammer with Xykon, but the plan played a role.Using pure brutal direct force can be considered a plan. It's however so simple that his enemies think that by sticking to such simple things, Xykon must therefore be an easy to beat bufoon...


I must of missed that bit of information, what page is that again? Strip 695.


Also, when did Serini die?By the time Xykon has gotten her diary with all the important information about the truth of the world. That, or she's working with him or anything more far-fetched...

[Reverent-One]

Strip 695.


And how is Serini's failure to guard her notebook (or even to leave such information in a notebook in the first place) Girard's fault?

[Forum Explorer]

Redcloak's minimum confirmed level is 15, actually. The best information we have on that is that he is known to be able to cast 8th-level spells.

Zevox

oops, I just went with what Belkar said in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)

My bad. :smallfrown:

[Wikiality]

Perhaps I was being too subtle:

Both Lirian and Soon had their boots so far up Xykon's backside that it took some serious plot armour to bail him out. Face it, Xykon might be 5-0, but he would have never gotten that far without some serious backup. How did Xykon become a lich? Redcloak. How did Xykon escape the ancient silver dragon? Shelby. How did Xykon survive Soon and the Sapphire Guard? Miko. How did Xykon know how disarm Darth V? Redcloak and Jirix.

Xykon tends to get slapped around before getting bailed out by someone. While I still maintain that Xykon would beat Tarquin in one-on-one combat, I feel it is disingenuous to say Xykon is slaughtering people he is barely squeaking by. He's epic, but not that epic.


Also, despite all his crowing about strategy not mattering, it was his "foolproof plan" that carried the day against Dorukan. Actually, it was Dorukan yeilding his main advantage and trying to go hammer versus hammer with Xykon, but the plan played a role.
This wasn't a reference to force, but a reference to Xykon's "foolproof plan" to lure Durokan out by using Lirian's corpse as bait. The reason foolproof was quoted like that was because I took the phrase straight out of SoD and wanted to retain the irony in the statement. Xykon came up with a foolproof plan; a plan that even a fool can't mess up. Get it?

As for Serini, there is nothing to suggest she is dead. Also, 695 doesn't even include half of what you claim it does, so I am dismissing that claim as complete hogwash as well.

[Callista]

How long do halflings live? She may simply have died of old age by now.

[hamishspence]

They live longer than humans- and Dorukan was still alive fairly recently. Though as the "new kid" he may have been younger than Serini, even in relative terms.

[Zevox]

How long do halflings live? She may simply have died of old age by now.
A good bit longer than humans. They don't even reach the venerable age category until 100, and their maximum life span is 200 years. There's no way Serini could be dead of old age when Dorukon wasn't, given she appears young during their adventures.

Zevox

[cho_j]

No opinion on how the fight should go, but the OP's wrestling-style description had me grinning ear to ear. :)

[martinkou]

Xykon (storms into castle): Ok, guys, we're taking over. It's not a good idea to found an empire near a gate, kids.
Tarquin: Hold a moment, gentleman!
Xykon: Maximized disintegrate.
Xykon: Lesson two today - it's not a good idea to show off your bling in front of an epic lich.

[Soranar]

I dunno, Tarquin is lawful evil and highly optimized

that means a paladin of tyranny/ blackguard combo to get insane saves is quite possible (getting his CHA to saves 2x)

and , as pointed out before, Tarquin's CHA is very very high

he might just resist any spell thrown at might and kill the lich

[Soranar]

Tarquin : smart, laughably evil, aligned with a team of high level evil dudes willing to back him up (the other tyrants)

Xykon : 1 epic level evil lich with a goblin backstabber

not looking that good for Xykon

[Cizak]

Or, he could fall down some stairs.

....what's your point again?

[Thanatosia]

Unfortunately, in every battle there is a level of force against which no smart laughably evil tyrant can suceed. Tarquins Empire is no match for Xykon's Sledgehammer to the face.

I don't see Xykon or Tarquin ever coming into direct conflict however.

[Cizak]

Xykon, epic level lich sorcerer, with a high level goblin priest of The Dark One, followed by another high level spell caster who can cast both arcane and divine magice, topped off with whatever that thing under the pink umbrella is.

Might wanna look at those odds again.

[ThePhantasm]

Actually, if Xykon came and took over Tarquin's army and castle and such, he could go down in history as a BIGGER legend and Tarquin would be mostly forgotten, AND it would not be due to a good guy victory. So in theory, that would mess up Tarquin's plans.

But how many threads ARE there on this topic?!

[Soranar]

I'm saying Tarquin has a lot more buddies with him

Tarquin= unknown level, at least superior to Elan since he easily defeats him (so 12+)

assuming the same for his party then 6 level 12 + characters

they're also pimped out in every available magic item

the level 20ish goblin is not a very trustworthy ally, might side with Tarquin

the dual casting necrophiliac can be taken care of by the obese dragon any day

still say Tarquin might win

[Kish]

Laughably evil? Is this a joke, or a relic of the same kind of "sounds like" association that gave us "for all intensive purposes"?

[Kislath]

Oh, please. You guys haven't figured this out yet?
Xykon is Capt Ahab, and the snarl is Moby D i c k. Xykon will be undone only when he thinks ultimate victory is in his grasp, fragged by the very snarl he dared to think he could control.

[hamishspence]

Laughably evil? Is this a joke, or a relic of the same kind of "sounds like" association that gave us "for all intensive purposes"?

Laughably Evil means, in general, a Yes answer to
"Does the villain make you laugh?":

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LaughablyEvil

[KillItWithFire]

Somehow I think Tarquin would be smarter than to just walk in front of a epic sorcerer lich to be blasted. Besides, why would Xykon meet Tarquin at the front gate? Likely enough it would be some random red-shirt soldier. I've also seen little evidence that Tarquin is "highly optomized." What has he done so far? Beat Elan when Elan was denied his CHA bonus, good job cookie for you. That being said, as we've seen no spells cast against him we also have no idea what his saves are like.


But how many threads ARE there on this topic?!

I've seen at least 3.

[zimmerwald1915]

highly optimized
We know nothing whatsoever of Tarquin's build. He hasn't actually made use of any identifiable class features or mechanics aside from apparently relying on Dodge bonuses as well as armor to up his AC and possibly a feat that allows him to not be flat-footed. More to the point, it doesn't matter. Tarquin doesn't need to be optimized to be awesome.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon will get destroyed by Roy. It's Roy's story that gets told here in the end and Xykon is the villain in that story.

For all we know, Tarquin could be the same or even of higher level than Xykon. He has been general and schemer for decades and playfully defeated Elan (level 15) twice now. He's the de-facto ruler of nearly the entire western continent. In fact, it'd be a huge surprise if he was just "barely epic".
Tarquin probably is at least level 20 (even jerks as Bozzok are level 18+)... 25 or even 30? Does not seem to be impossible.

[Geddoe]

For all we know, Tarquin could be the same or even of higher level than Xykon. He has been general and schemer for decades and playfully defeated Elan (level 15) twice now.

I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Until his level in Dashing Swordsman Elan was a joke in melee and still is if his ability to make puns while attacking is either negated or countered. A level 12 dedicated melee could probably do the same thing to Elan if needed. We are talking about Elan, a guy who, before taking the class, had trouble defeating a fighter/rogue/sorceror in melee combat.

[Floater]

He can just die changed into puppet by The Creature in the Shadow...
Or he can be sucked by the toilet seat.
Or he can be eatten by The SSerpme of Doolb in the case of her sudden insanity.
Or he can also get paranoid about all of these things and lose his power as a result.

In fact there are many different ways he can die or just lose without glory: not to be a king and not to be a legend, because almost everything is possible in the comic like this one.


But I'm not sure if Tarquin really revealed his true plans to Elan.

[Swordpriest]

Impossible.

The story is probably about 3/5 (60%) complete at the moment.

The main driving force of the whole plot is Xykon's attempt to get the gates.

How can the main driving force of the whole plot of the comic be destroyed when there is still roughly 40% of the comic to go?

QED, as far as I'm concerned. :smalltongue:

[Nilan8888]

Xykon tends to get slapped around before getting bailed out by someone. While I still maintain that Xykon would beat Tarquin in one-on-one combat, I feel it is disingenuous to say Xykon is slaughtering people he is barely squeaking by. He's epic, but not that epic.

I definately agree with this. Xykon gets by because he's just that far ahead in absolute terms than others. He does not spend his time making plans or even making a better sledgehammer, but making sure a sledghammer is available.

That is, if you have a gun and Xykon has a gun, and Xykon sees that you have a gun, Xykon is not going to go and get shooting lessons and read up on what guns perform best and how to use them... he's going to go get a tank. And he probably won't even get the best tank for the job: just the easiest one he can get to render your gun useless.

His monologue shows that he's convinced that all he has to do is get the biggest weapon and he can bypass finesse and learning and everything else. to a certain degree this is true, but the major reason it works for him is that Xykon doesn't make himself anyone's target. That is, he doesn't RUN an empire. He doesn't HAVE enemies from way back when that have levelled up along with him -- the ones he's had are those he was so far ahead of when he met them that he doesn't need to care.

It makes him lazy and complacent, as the IFCC observed. The IFCC made the comment as a general statement of all the players at hand, but it's especially true with Xykon. The moment he runs up against something that is, for whatever reason, a real challenge for him, his odds start moving toward 50/50. Xykon can level entire legions of troops, but if he were to go face to face with someone like say, Elminster, even if they were at equal power, Xykon would be done, done and done. All Xykon did in SoD is admit that he's got only one general strategy: get the bigger boat. If he can't get that bigger boat or bigger weapon, he's screwed. He's cunning; but a cunning man with a sledgehammer will still only go so far.

[Maraxus1]

Tarquin might have beaten the Symbol of Pain, Shatter and Magic Missile throwing Xykon in the first battle. (And would have been smart enough to capture Redcloak and have somebody detect-magic the area for the phylactery, too).

With some help or good luck he might have even beaten the Meteor Swarm, Symbol of Insanity and Maximized Magic Missile throwing Xykon who conquered Azure City.

But there is no way, he could have beaten that Energy Drain, MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, Still Meteor Swarm, Superb Dispelling and a few more Meteor Swarms throwing Xykon who defeated the soul spliced Vaarsuvius.

(Seriously with the speed Xykon gains power, he will be able to cast Vengeful Gaze of God (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm) soon and survive the backlash damage. :smallwink:)

[shadowkiller]

Xykon will get destroyed by Roy. It's Roy's story that gets told here in the end and Xykon is the villain in that story.

For all we know, Tarquin could be the same or even of higher level than Xykon. He has been general and schemer for decades and playfully defeated Elan (level 15) twice now. He's the de-facto ruler of nearly the entire western continent. In fact, it'd be a huge surprise if he was just "barely epic".
Tarquin probably is at least level 20 (even jerks as Bozzok are level 18+)... 25 or even 30? Does not seem to be impossible.

It's not hard to beat a Bard, especially is straight melee. A fighter or other good melee class could do that at a lower level than Elan.

As for the level for Bozzok, Crystal and a good portion of the Thieves Guild got defeated by a Rogue, a Ranger/Barbarian who can't cast spells and a Sylph that does not give them as high of a level as you're stating.

[Zevox]

Tarquin= unknown level, at least superior to Elan since he easily defeats him (so 12+)
Ugh. Two points:

First, Elan is level 14, maybe 15. We know for certain he is exactly 13 as a Bard from the strip where he talked about his new 5th-level spells at the end of Don't Split the Party, and he has one or more levels as a Dashing Swordsman. Given the rest of the party seems to be around 14-15 as well, it's unlikely he has more than two DS levels.

Second, Tarquin beating Elan in that fight does not make him higher level! Where on earth are people getting that notion? All Tarquin did was defend himself - while neutralizing Elan's one ability that has made him semi-competent in combat, I might add - and then disarm him. All he needs to accomplish this is a good AC (via magic armor, items, total defense, etc) and a decent attack score (bab, strength, magical bonuses). He could quite easily do this while being lower level than Elan, given that Elan, as a Bard relying on his Dashing Swordsman abilities to fight worth a damn, does not have an impressive attack bonus himself for his level.

Zevox

[slayerx]

I really don't think people should underestimate Taquin... afterall like bozzok, i'm sure Tarquin has found plenty of opportunities for rapid exp gain given his position. Hell i wouldn't be surprised that if Roy survived the arena but refused tarquin, he would probably make sure he deals the final blow just to get some of that sweet exp. As a man who likes to survive he would value having as high level as possible



But there is no way, he could have beaten that Energy Drain, MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, Still Meteor Swarm, Superb Dispelling and a few more Meteor Swarms throwing Xykon who defeated the soul spliced Vaarsuvius.

(Seriously with the speed Xykon gains power, he will be able to cast Vengeful Gaze of God (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm) soon and survive the backlash damage. :smallwink:)

Antimagic Field
8th level cleric spell
It would be centered on Malack but that only means that he and Tarquin would have to stick close to eachother... which is not a bad idea since Malack doesn't seem like the armored type and thus needs a good meat shield

I think only a disjunction can take it down, but as far as we know that is not on Xykon's list of known spells... not to mention the chances of it being successful aren't to good

[Zevox]

Antimagic Field
8th level cleric spell
It would be centered on Malack but that only means that he and Tarquin would have to stick close to eachother

I think only a disjunction can take it down, but as far as we know that is not on Xykon's list of known spells... not to mention the chances of it being successful aren't to good
Epic magic, such the Superb Dispelling we know Xykon can cast, can defeat antimagic fields, and with a much greater likelihood of success than Disjunction:


Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.
With Xykon's minimum level pegged at 26, that means an antimagic field caster has to roll a 17+ to suppress any epic magic he casts, minimum. Which means that his Superb Dispelling can dispel antimagic fields at least 80% of the time.

Zevox

[hrak]

Like what others have said, what Tarquin has done, as far as melee combat, isn't all that impressive. I personally think Xykon is alot funnier and more interesting then Tarquin. And if the two ever did meet I think Xykon would wipe the floor with Tarquin and be quite hilarious about it aswell.

I guess Tarquin doesn't do much for me. I mean he is funny, though everyone else seems to be acting like he is the greatest character ever to appear in this comic. I personally think Lord Shojo was far more clever and Xykon too...

[Da'Shain]

Remember, Enor treated Elan like a nonentity as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0714.html), and yet we can be almost certain that he and Gannji are lower level than the Order by Gannji's amazement that they can dive through a Blade Barrier and all survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html). Granted, Enor is a Large half-dragon half-ogre, but still, it shows that Elan is still not a very big threat in melee to any similarly-leveled foe besides his brother. Tarquin, as others have pointed out, is just as likely to be lower leveled with a better build as he is to be near-epic.

[Forum Staff]

Three threads on the same topic have been merged.

[Half-Orc Rage]

I think Tarquin is entirely too smart to go after the epic lich. Better to let the band of heroes take care of it.

[Jagos]

I definately agree with this. Xykon gets by because he's just that far ahead in absolute terms than others. He does not spend his time making plans or even making a better sledgehammer, but making sure a sledghammer is available.

That is, if you have a gun and Xykon has a gun, and Xykon sees that you have a gun, Xykon is not going to go and get shooting lessons and read up on what guns perform best and how to use them... he's going to go get a tank. And he probably won't even get the best tank for the job: just the easiest one he can get to render your gun useless.

His monologue shows that he's convinced that all he has to do is get the biggest weapon and he can bypass finesse and learning and everything else. to a certain degree this is true, but the major reason it works for him is that Xykon doesn't make himself anyone's target. That is, he doesn't RUN an empire. He doesn't HAVE enemies from way back when that have levelled up along with him -- the ones he's had are those he was so far ahead of when he met them that he doesn't need to care.

It makes him lazy and complacent, as the IFCC observed. The IFCC made the comment as a general statement of all the players at hand, but it's especially true with Xykon. The moment he runs up against something that is, for whatever reason, a real challenge for him, his odds start moving toward 50/50. Xykon can level entire legions of troops, but if he were to go face to face with someone like say, Elminster, even if they were at equal power, Xykon would be done, done and done. All Xykon did in SoD is admit that he's got only one general strategy: get the bigger boat. If he can't get that bigger boat or bigger weapon, he's screwed. He's cunning; but a cunning man with a sledgehammer will still only go so far.

Xykon's an Engineer? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i68cEsALWt0)

O_o

[3SecondCultist]

MY opinion is that while Tarquin might not be amazing on his own in a fight (we only know for sure that Elan took one level in DS), he is probably some sort of support class (Marshal maybe?), so that with his party, he is even more awesome, and might actually have a chance of beating Xykon in close combat.

As previously stated, though, this entire argument is almost moot point, as if Tarquin ever tried to take down Xykon, the lich would never even learn of his existence. He would set up plots from the shadows, and manipulate Xykon to destroy himself accidentally or something.

[Jagos]

MY opinion is that while Tarquin might not be amazing on his own in a fight (we only know for sure that Elan took one level in DS), he is probably some sort of support class (Marshal maybe?), so that with his party, he is even more awesome, and might actually have a chance of beating Xykon in close combat.

As previously stated, though, this entire argument is almost moot point, as if Tarquin ever tried to take down Xykon, the lich would never even learn of his existence. He would set up plots from the shadows, and manipulate Xykon to destroy himself accidentally or something.

I think it's inevitable that the two MUST face off. It certainly won't be entirely cordial because Xykon doesn't have much in terms of patience. With him still salty about his phylactery, I'm sure that he won't give Tarquin much to work on when he comes knocking about the next gate.

Being nice to his face but dealing with the problem of Xykon behind his back does sound like something he would do. It's just going to take a lot of planning to truly show him the awesome that is Tarquin.

[Burner28]

I think it's inevitable that the two MUST face off.

But why really?

[Kish]

It is very evitable. Tarquin and Xykon need never know that each other exist by name.

I would, of course, be pleased if they did, if only (or primarily) because there is no doubt in my mind that Xykon would swat Tarquin like a bug.

[Swordpriest]

But why really?

So true. Kubota never squared off against Xykon. Nale never did, nor did Bozzok. There's a chance they'll "square off" -- that is, Xykon will blast the pathetic level 15 to pieces without really knowing who he is, and go off yawning and looking for the gate -- but it's definitely not required or certain.

[Jagos]

But why really?

The main rules that Tarquin is running off of are those of drama. The thing is, he's a high level diplomat and believes Elan is the main hero of this quest. Yes, that falls to Roy, who is currently a slave. So really, he's more of a second villain.

Now he currently has information on a gate that Xykon might or might not know. We don't know what's in Serini's diary and we don't know where exactly the gate is. But here, we may see an epic three sided battle. Now if the battle is over, Xykon lives and the gate is destroyed, don't you think he'd go after everyone in the area?

It would be truly undramatic to die by an even bigger bad in such a careless manner. That's why I think the rules of irony may be a stronger force than the rules of drama.

[king korath]

They would not fight each other, they would team up. That way Roy can fight Xykon and Elan would would get his dramatic final battle with his father.

[King of Nowhere]

Now if the battle is over, Xykon lives and the gate is destroyed, don't you think he'd go after everyone in the area?


No, unless you mean "blast everyone within eyesigth". But he won't lose time, he'd just start chasing the last gate. The moment Girard's gate is destroied, Xykon will teleport out of the western continent in a matter of rounds

[Jagos]

They would not fight each other, they would team up. That way Roy can fight Xykon and Elan would would get his dramatic final battle with his father.

Their goals aren't even remotely the same though. Tarquin is LE because of how he's coming to rule three cities at once. His entire motivation is that of rule through conquest and living like a god until his death.

Xykon is more about ruling the world by any means necessary. If we know a few things, it's the fact that Evil doesn't always have to team up.


Girard's gate is destroied, Xykon will teleport out of the western continent in a matter of rounds

I understand that Xykon is interested in the Maguffin but don't you think after losing his phylactery, and being shown who's boss on quite a few occasions, he'd take out that pent up frustration on the next fewest things he saw? It makes no sense (to me) that he wouldn't destroy others. He's not the same lich that lost his body in Dorukon's Dungeon.

[JSSheridan]

Would an antimagic field prevent a phylactery from functioning?

[Bad Situation]

This matchup is silly.

If Tarquin was strong enough to take down Xykon, he'd have done so and added Azure City to his collection

Why would you ship off soldiers to a distant land to capture a city when you haven't even consolidated your holdings on the continent you're already on? That's a bad move and Tarquin is smart for not attacking Azure City.

That said I think Tarquin would beat Xykon on the would stage. Xykon is not a military genius, he's an epic level caster. He doesn't plan, manipulate, or really prepare things all too well. So sure, in a one on one duel Xykon would utterly dominate Tarquin. But again, Tarquin is not an idiot, he would never let things come to that.

Xykon = BBEG with plans that go above most heads. Plans often involve macguffins.
Tarquin = Conqueror side villain with weighty goals and the methodical nature to carry them out.

[shadowkiller]

Would an antimagic field prevent a phylactery from functioning?

According to Libris Mortis an antimagic field would prevent a lich from regenerating while the phylactery is in the antimagic field but will regenerate normally once removed. More importantly an antimagic field would probably knock out most of the non-epic enchantments on the phylactery.

[Jay R]

A. Tarquin doesn't defeat evil monsters; he uses them. He's using a massive red dragon right now. If he were to get involved with Xykon at all it would be to replace Redcloak as the power behind the throne, hole up there for awhile, then set up some hero (Roy?) to defeat the lich, so he can be the power behind the next throne.

B. Xykon has no interest in fighting Tarquin, unless Tarquin decides to guard the gate himself, in direct contradiction to his usual M.O.

C. Roy will have to defeat Xykon. This story is built on genre convention.

D. Elan will have to defeat Tarquin. This story is built on genre convention.

The fight won't happen. It just won't.

[Ancalagon]

I don't know why people keep bringing this up.

Maybe because he, hum, did it? ;)


Until his level in Dashing Swordsman Elan was a joke in melee and still is if his ability to make puns while attacking is either negated or countered. A level 12 dedicated melee could probably do the same thing to Elan if needed. We are talking about Elan, a guy who, before taking the class, had trouble defeating a fighter/rogue/sorceror in melee combat.

Elan has been shown to be a decent fighter when he has to and when the plot demands it. So far, his pun-power has been MUCH more effective and had a MUCH greater impact on his fighting ability than it really, really should have according to normal D&D-rules. One level can't be a Level in Badass in D&D, but it seemed to be exactly that for Elan.
So far, Elan was a valuable, level-appropiate combatant as soon as his puns worked (he was understood) - and this was also the case in the Tarquin-fight. So I assume he was a least a "decent level 15 character" and got deafeated easily.

Yes, Elan is a very bad fight - unless he enables his pun-power in a working way. So it's still a very legit point to bring up to determine Tarquin's fighting ability.

[Zevox]

So far, Elan was a valuable, level-appropiate combatant as soon as his puns worked (he was understood) - and this was also the case in the Tarquin-fight.
No it wasn't. Did you miss the first panel of 762?

:elan: You - you blocked my puns! How did you do that??
Tarquin: I know how to defend myself against many obscure combat techniques. Though I admit that it has been many years since I have been called upon to pun-duel.

Seems to me that means that Tarquin's counter-punning was effectively negating the effects of Elan's puns on his combat prowess. Plus there are a number of other reasons why Tarquin beating Elan does not at all mean he's an impressive combatant, but I'd rather no retread that yet again just at the moment (it's late).

Zevox

[JSSheridan]

According to Libris Mortis an antimagic field would prevent a lich from regenerating while the phylactery is in the antimagic field but will regenerate normally once removed. More importantly an antimagic field would probably knock out most of the non-epic enchantments on the phylactery.

So if the phylactery is within an AMF when his body is destroyed, it would still hold his soul?

[Geddoe]

So far, Elan was a valuable, level-appropiate combatant as soon as his puns worked (he was understood) - and this was also the case in the Tarquin-fight. So I assume he was a least a "decent level 15 character" and got deafeated easily.

Yes, Elan is a very bad fight - unless he enables his pun-power in a working way. So it's still a very legit point to bring up to determine Tarquin's fighting ability.

The puns seemed to do nothing to Enor. He just swatted Elan like a bug, and we know they are lower level because he and his partner are shocked that Elan, V and Haley can jump through a blade barrier and survive.

[shadowkiller]

So if the phylactery is within an AMF when his body is destroyed, it would still hold his soul?

According to that book yes it would, the AMF would just delay the regeneration. However I have no idea if that would apply in OOTS since that is not SRD content.

[aart lover]

xykon would win. he's too powerful for tarquin to last more than 5 rounds with him.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm surprised at everyone who comes to a firm conclusion one way or another. We can state prospective odds, but we have no firm build for Tarquin. He could possibly be ridiculously epic(I consider this unlikely, but we don't KNOW this).

In fact, most of what we know about Tarquin is not demonstrated or stated, but deduced.

I suspect we'll get much better answers once we have a good idea of his build.

[natrl20]

Apologize if this point has been made (i looked and didn't see it), but:

How exactly will Xykon hurt T based on his spell list? his faves are meteor swarm, but T has protection from fire, and is (presumably) extremely dexy, so no fire damage and hard to hit with the bludgeoning.

the dex will make it hard for X to spam (maximized) energy drain (dumbass), since that requires a ranged touch.

plus T's will and fort saves are no doubt pretty studly, but how they compare to X's DC will depend on info we don't have, such as just what level T is.
But if T's level is pretty high, won't it be pretty hard for X to actually effect him? even leaving aside his toolkit of magical items... recall that T had no qualms about going to 'help' the low level soldiers arrest V and Z when they were wizard-battling at the palace, so he seems pretty confident about immunity to the attacks of wizards at that level (implying that his saves are good enough so that he'd be in no real danger from them).

of course, T might have a lot of trouble hurting X... but what are the runes on that axe again???

Thoughts?

[natrl20]

Xykon could superbly dispel away all of T's magical items, but that would be a strange thing to start out with against a fighter...

[skaddix]

I'm surprised at everyone who comes to a firm conclusion one way or another. We can state prospective odds, but we have no firm build for Tarquin. He could possibly be ridiculously epic(I consider this unlikely, but we don't KNOW this).

In fact, most of what we know about Tarquin is not demonstrated or stated, but deduced.

I suspect we'll get much better answers once we have a good idea of his build.

I would guess Tarquin and Club are around Redcloak Level.

Still Xykon should win.

[kpenguin]

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