When immovable object meets unstoppable force....

[randomhero00]

What happens when an Ur-Priest becomes a god? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously...

[dgnslyr]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTSAkwrylMI&feature=related) happens.

[randomhero00]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTSAkwrylMI&feature=related) happens.

huh? Don't get it at all. Explain more?


But seriously this is coming up in a campaign. Would he remain a god that siphons power off other gods? Or would he lose his levels in Ur-priest and gain them as a normal priest?

[randomhero00]

Although a god that feeds off other gods would be pretty interesting. But then it raises the question, why don't the other gods kill him/her? Of course that also raises the question why gods don't kill ur priests in the first place.

[AstralFire]

Although a god that feeds off other gods would be pretty interesting. But then it raises the question, why don't the other gods kill him/her? Of course that also raises the question why gods don't kill ur priests in the first place.

I think this is a pretty interesting concept. What I would say is that he is -still- siphoning off the power of the other gods. Potential reasons he's not dead:
1) Major pantheons and alliances are afraid to move against him; for example, the good deities moving against him would drive him to consort with the evil ones, and the evil ones might aid him in siphoning off good deity power at a higher rate.
2) He is an 'invisible' god. The method of siphoning off the essences of the other gods allows him to hide himself from them. This is also a possible reason why Ur-Priests are not slain - they use a portion of the energy they steal to cloak themselves. A god can only see an Ur-Priest if something non-godly is pointing at it.
In this case, the other gods know he exists, but they can't actually find him.


This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTSAkwrylMI&feature=related) happens.

What the heck did I just watch?

[randomhero00]

I think this is a pretty interesting concept. What I would say is that he is -still- siphoning off the power of the other gods. Potential reasons he's not dead:
1) Major pantheons and alliances are afraid to move against him; for example, the good deities moving against him would drive him to consort with the evil ones, and the evil ones might aid him in siphoning off good deity power at a higher rate.
2) He is an 'invisible' god. The method of siphoning off the essences of the other gods allows him to hide himself from them. This is also a possible reason why Ur-Priests are not slain - they use a portion of the energy they steal to cloak themselves. A god can only see an Ur-Priest if something non-godly is pointing at it.
In this case, the other gods know he exists, but they can't actually find him.


Glad someone else finds this an interesting concept. I like the idea that he's siphoning from good deities and the evil ones are protecting him.

2nd question though. Do his or her followers have normal clerics or are they Ur Priests too?

[AstralFire]

Glad someone else finds this an interesting concept. I like the idea that he's siphoning from good deities and the evil ones are protecting him.

2nd question though. Do his or her followers have normal clerics or are they Ur Priests too?

Well, it could also be good ones helping against the evil, or lawful against chaotic, or drow against Zohan or w/e the evil human deity's name is. Just the idea that the risk taken by moving against him is too great because he would be allying with the opposite side.

I think as to the second point, it depends. For example, you could have him be a god who is philosophically opposed to the concept of gods - he has his power, but at least dogmatically, he's only keeping it as long as he can until all gods are at the level of mortals. So he would encourage Ur-Priests but also allow clerics of misotheism, for those willing to aid in his quest but unable to master the art of siphoning.

On the other hand, he could just be a selfish jerk who makes no pretenses of being anything else and he would want to jealously guard the secrets of Ur-Priesting so no one else can pull it off, in which case clerics only.

On the other other hand, he could be a selfish jerk who is willing to spread the secret to give the other gods more targets to busy themselves with, and be unwilling to ration out some of his divine power to clerics - instead instructing them to steal it from the other dimwits.

[dgnslyr]

What the heck did I just watch?

An unstoppable force meeting an immovable object?

[AstralFire]

An unstoppable force meeting an immovable object?

I... don't get it. Seems like your average, incoherently insipid youtube video.

[TSGames]

I'd think at the point that an Ur Priest becomes a god, he is no longer stealing energy at all.

I can't remember which one, but there's a diety in 3.5 that managed to ascend to godhood as a cleric of one of the good dieties(IIRC, he worshiped Pelor). I remember it mentioning in the description that he was still on good terms with the diety he had served, but that he no longer worshiped said diety; rather he drew power from himself now. I'd imagine that the exact same thing would happen if an Ur Priest became a diety. After all, there is no longer any need to steal power from the other dieties.

That's not to say an Ur Priest wouldn't be able to steal power from the other dieties; if anything it would make an awesome and terribly appropriate salient divine ability for an Ur Priest's energy stealing ability to get a super-massive power boost. Already this sounds like a good theme for an epic campaign.

[flabort]

Fools! What do you think an Overdiety is?! :smallfurious:
The moment an Ur-priest gains a divine rank, it rockets up to some hundred, is what happens.
If they care anything for worshipers, those worshipers have a fairly high divine rank themselves. It's sheer power and strength explodes, and it's siphoned power inverts and turns upon itself, becoming so powerful that it feeds spells and powers to the lesser gods, giving them their strength when it took from them before.
Some say until the first Ur-priest became a god, All the gods in the world were barely stronger than a man. some say ur-priests came before the gods. but those are the believers that the world created gods, and not vice versa.

[thubby]

I can't remember which one, but there's a diety in 3.5 that managed to ascend to godhood as a cleric of one of the good dieties(IIRC, he worshiped Pelor).

i believe pelor was a paladin before he got divine.

[TSGames]

i believe pelor was a paladin before he got divine.
That's probably what I was thinking of.

[Coidzor]

i believe pelor was a paladin before he got divine.

Slander! Pelor is the epitome of Neutral*cough*chaoticevil (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate)*cough*Good!

[Lord_Gareth]

I think as to the second point, it depends. For example, you could have him be a god who is philosophically opposed to the concept of gods - he has his power, but at least dogmatically, he's only keeping it as long as he can until all gods are at the level of mortals. So he would encourage Ur-Priests but also allow clerics of misotheism, for those willing to aid in his quest but unable to master the art of siphoning.

In a god game I once participated in, a player was a god like this - Athe, the God of Doubt, who was essentially a sociopath with a single command: determine whether or not gods are an essential aspect of reality. He was one of the sickest and most disturbing PC villains I ever ran across and I feel honored to have ever played with him.

Ur-Priest Athe gains my full approval.

[TSGames]

Slander! Pelor is the epitome of Neutral*cough*chaoticevil (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate)*cough*Good!
"It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel."
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/columbia_pictures/spider_man_2/j_k__simmons/spiderman3.jpg

[Psyx]

An unstoppable force meeting an immovable object?

There is of course no such thing. One or the other gives way, meaning that one is not unstoppable, or the other is not immovable.

[Eldan]

Hmm.

On the subject of invisible gods:
There's one big point which would help a god stealing from other gods: he would need no worshipers.
The traditional way of attacking a god is attacking their worshipers. If they have none, that is out.
Furthermore, they need no temples, no domains, no afterlives, no symbols even, really. They are easy to hide.

[Ragitsu]

There is of course no such thing. One or the other gives way, meaning that one is not unstoppable, or the other is not immovable.

Or a paradox occurs, which destroys the universe. And cheese.

[Psyx]

I for one am unwilling to explore a philosophical exercise which excludes the existence of cheese.

I have my limits; and a world without Stilton reaches far beyond them.

[Echoes]

There is of course no such thing. One or the other gives way, meaning that one is not unstoppable, or the other is not immovable.

Not true. The unmovable object can divert the unstoppable force. The force is not stopped and neither is the object moved, yet they both retain the quality which gives them their name. Take, for instance, a massive pillar of stone in the middle of a metaphorical river rapids. The rapids sweep away any object dropped into their current, yet they are powerless against the monolith. Yet, the monolith doesn't stop the rapids, the rapids just move around it.

Then again, this is an issue of RAW vs. RAI, as I have a feeling your interpretation suggests that an unstoppable force is also undivertable. >.>

[Eldan]

Well, the immovable object could also stretch indefinitely without actually moving from it's place...

[Ason]

This reminded me of something from Warhammer Fantasy. Let's see... now where was that?... Er... no... maybe... a-ha! Here you go: Necoho the Doubter (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necoho)

As for the video... I assume its relevance is that the hammer was an unstoppable force and the burnt-on cheese was an immovable object, which makes the result Billy Mays (the guy who wields them both). That's the best I can come up with.

[Eldonauran]

You got it all wrong. The immovable object is the unstoppable force. The immovable object is stationary when compared to everything else and only has the illusion of motion.

[Shadowleaf]

i believe pelor was a paladin before he got divine.Kelemvor Lyonsbane was a fighter, too.

With an Ur-Priest turned God, I would first and foremost consider this:

Since he ascended using divine energy from others, there would first be the issue of whether or not the Ur-God needed more. If he has stolen enough to gain a divine rank, does he still need the flow of energy from the Gods, or has he gathered enough to start radiating his own?
See it as a power plant getting a jolt to get back online - once it is back online, it is able to generate its own power. Perhaps this is the case now?

Because it would be the most badass option, I'd say he'd still need energy from the other Gods in order to substain his divinity, if he wanted to have followers.. As an Ur-Priest, he knows how to hide this siphon of energy. If he just wanted to enjoy his divinity, he would not need any additional energy - unless he started using his energies. Seeing as he has no followers, he has no one to send him the energy he needs.

[TSGames]

I for one am unwilling to explore a philosophical exercise which excludes the existence of cheese.

I have my limits; and a world without Stilton reaches far beyond them.

*Nods* A world without cheese just wouldn't be very gouda. I'm going to pun hell for that one.

[Drogorn]

Both the immovable object and the unstoppable force release a massive amount of energy, until they are utterly destroyed.

[randomhero00]

Ok, but what about the question of his levels? Would he retain his Ur Priest levels? Or gain cleric levels? If so, would the cleric levels be equal to Ur Priest, or equal to the casting of the Ur priest (as they have different spell progressions.)

Also, what if the Ur Priest became so power he essentially siphoned off so much power from a particular god that he beat him and took his position. Do the followers still worship him? Does he keep the domains? etc.

[Shadowleaf]

Ok, but what about the question of his levels? Would he retain his Ur Priest levels? Or gain cleric levels? If so, would the cleric levels be equal to Ur Priest, or equal to the casting of the Ur priest (as they have different spell progressions.)

Also, what if the Ur Priest became so power he essentially siphoned off so much power from a particular god that he beat him and took his position. Do the followers still worship him? Does he keep the domains? etc.
Why would his character levels change? IIRC, Mystra has Wizard levels.

I would say the siphoned God became a vestige, and while his followers could still worship the concept of the God (i.e. worship the concept of Good, instead of Pelor), direct offerings and rituals to the God would do squat. I don't think a God takes over another's portfolio just because he kills him. Maybe the Multiverse/Overgod/balance would 'elect' a new God.

[randomhero00]

Why would his character levels change? IIRC, Mystra has Wizard levels.


Well he's an Ur Priest...someone who detests gods and feeds off them. Now he is a god...That makes sense to you? Maybe I need another explanation.

I find this concept very interesting and plan on putting something like it in my homebrew world.

[Sir Swindle89]

There is nothing any where that says his levels would change. Additionally his attitudes are not a culmination of his class levels. Even if he got his levels switched to cleric levels he would still be that same guy who became an Ur-Priest. Just because he is now on an equal footing with the beings he steals power from doesn't mean he would suddenly learn to channel it in a different way.

Deitys and Demigods explicitly states that gods can only use cleric spells if they have levels in cleric. Cleric spells are not a way for gods to manifest their divine power. Their salient divine abilities and power to controll divinly morphic planes are.

So ya he's keep stealing divine power from other gods rather than magically forgetting how and learning to channel his own power through belief and dedication to his cause.

[randomhero00]

There is nothing any where that says his levels would change. Additionally his attitudes are not a culmination of his class levels. Even if he got his levels switched to cleric levels he would still be that same guy who became an Ur-Priest. Just because he is now on an equal footing with the beings he steals power from doesn't mean he would suddenly learn to channel it in a different way.

Deitys and Demigods explicitly states that gods can only use cleric spells if they have levels in cleric. Cleric spells are not a way for gods to manifest their divine power. Their salient divine abilities and power to controll divinly morphic planes are.

So ya he's keep stealing divine power from other gods rather than magically forgetting how and learning to channel his own power through belief and dedication to his cause.

So if he gained followers, would they gain his abilities from Ur Priest and would the have to be Ur Priests themselves, or normal clerics?

I can almost see a full campaign now...an Urpriest rises to godhood, gains followers who are the same, and they all start sucking the power out of all the other gods. A war begins...

[Sir Swindle89]

So if he gained followers, would they gain his abilities from Ur Priest and would the have to be Ur Priests themselves, or normal clerics?

I can almost see a full campaign now...an Urpriest rises to godhood, gains followers who are the same, and they all start sucking the power out of all the other gods. A war begins...

Let us presume to call this guy the god of Ur-Priests, ok
Let us then call Kord the god of strength and warriors, ok acceptable
Krod has clerics that are very strong and warlike, but they are still CLERICS. He also has a large number of followers that ate warriors, fighters and the like.

The same thing would happen with the god of Ur-Priests. He would have clerics that worshiped him and held services and give advice to his other followers, they would also be total bastards most likely evil god i assume attracts that sort. His followers would likely consist of many Ur-Priests or aspiring Ur-Priests along with thieves and the like.

The only point of confusion i can see is that his Clerics are full class clerics but they are also theoretically second hand Ur-Priests because the god they worship to get their magic steals power from other gods. But aside from domain abilities that would not affect them mechanically.

The Ur-Priest domain would be a lot of fun:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

The same thing would happen with the god of Ur-Priests. He would have clerics that worshiped him and held services and give advice to his other followers, they would also be total bastards most likely evil god i assume attracts that sort. His followers would likely consist of many Ur-Priests or aspiring Ur-Priests along with thieves and the like.

For a more "antivillain" version, he could be an Athar from Planescape, on ascension, appear to other Athar, freely admit he's not a "real divinity"- but offer them power to further their own cause of putting an end to the current system of gods.

[randomhero00]

Oh man, so much potential :smallbiggrin:

Basically instead of granted power (like most gods grant their clerics) he could grant his followers knowledge of how to gain levels in Ur Priest so they may feed on other gods. Begin his slow machinations to become an overdeity and get rid of every single other god.

[Echoes]

Now, to complicate matters further: What if the Ur-Priest had levels of ex-cleric before taking up the Ur-Priest PrC... Could he become a follower of himself, use his Ur-Priest levels to siphon off an atonement spell, then become a cleric of himself? And if he did so, would the cleric spellcasting turn him into an ex-Ur-Priest?

EDIT: Point of clarification - I went and looked up the Ur-Priest again, and realized that the "special" entry states that divine spellcasting is forever forsaken when the first level of Ur-Priest is taken. Question answered.

[Tyger]

I for one am unwilling to explore a philosophical exercise which excludes the existence of cheese.

I have my limits; and a world without Stilton reaches far beyond them.

Soooo sigging this, with permission of course.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd imagine it like a Star, actually. The Ur Priest (Jupiter), has been syphoning light, heat and matter off of the gods (The Sun) for a long period of time. Eventually, however, the Ur Priest (Jupiter) will reach a kind of critical mass and ascend (Ignite).

Once this point is reached, no more is needed, because the nuclear reactions(stolen divine energy) are effectively self sustaining.

He'd keep the same class, and maybe even steal his petty-cash-abilities (non divine ones) from other gods, still, but his essential divinity is complete and self sustaining.

[Eldan]

What happens when an Urpriest turns into a Pulsar?

[Kallisti]

I'd imagine it like a Star, actually. The Ur Priest (Jupiter), has been syphoning light, heat and matter off of the gods (The Sun) for a long period of time. Eventually, however, the Ur Priest (Jupiter) will reach a kind of critical mass and ascend (Ignite).

Once this point is reached, no more is needed, because the nuclear reactions(stolen divine energy) are effectively self sustaining.

He'd keep the same class, and maybe even steal his petty-cash-abilities (non divine ones) from other gods, still, but his essential divinity is complete and self sustaining.

Metaphysics and Astrophysics are confusing enough without confusing the two...

[Psyx]

Let us presume to call this guy the god of Ur-Priests, ok

But he wouldn't have any worshippers, then. Sure: Ur-priests might steal his power, but the whole point of being an Ur-Priest is that you give nothing in return for the power that you take.

Deities are part-defined by the strength and will of their congregations. This 'deity' has none. By gaining (somehow) divine rank, the entity is basically announcing to the pantheon 'Hey: I've stole enough power off you to become a god myself. Mwhahaha'. Which for me would be grounds for a serious smack-down from a bunch on unamused deities!

[hamishspence]

In the rules, it doesn't cost a deity any power, to grant spells to their worshippers.

Indeed, by empowering them, they can increase their own power- clerics go out and recruit people to the deity.

It's like saying "There can't be a God of Thieves- since thieves are all about taking, and not giving".

[Psyx]

But thieves worship a god of thieves.

Ur-priests by very definition may NOT worship the god of ur-priests... and frankly, who else is going to?

[hamishspence]

Ordinary priests who revere "a concept" (such as the few clerical members of the Athar) might switch to revering the Ur-priest guy.

In the Athar's case, it might be a belief that, by empowering him, they may eventually achieve their goal of eliminating all worship of conventional deities.

Once worship of the gods is ended, they can stop worshipping the Ur-priest deity.

Also, if the Ur-priest, on ascension, becomes "deity of those who wish to become deities" he might be able to garner the devotion of those who want to ascend themselves.

You don't actually have to be a cleric of a deity, to worship them, and be a "spiritual leader". In the D&D splats, it mentions this- churches may be headed by experts rather than clerics.

Ur-priests could do some of this because they revere the greatest of them all- and pull their actual power from other deities.