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Angry Bob
2010-11-29, 09:03 PM
Stories about monsters that you discovered were much stronger than they seemed only after they've gibbed half the party.

I've had the opposite, once, thrown an ogre mage(using, in my defense, some pretty awesome gear), backed up by four vivisectors at an ECL 7 Party with four characters. They walked right over what was supposed to be the (demi)boss battle of a small dungeon. Then I sent an NPC Blastificer after them that was supposed to be a minor obstacle.

And then, a DM of mine once threw a girallon against a party that "should" have been able to handle it. It hit a player four times with its claws, rend. The player had to reroll.

Let's hear them!

randomhero00
2010-11-29, 09:10 PM
I've actually been the opposite. Whenever I DM I *always* end up throwing too weak of monsters at my players. Its usually over in 2 rounds with little threat to my players.

dgnslyr
2010-11-29, 09:13 PM
That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) has to be mentioned, though I haven't had the, ahem, pleasure of seeing it in action firsthand.

FMArthur
2010-11-29, 09:26 PM
You know, I don't think many have actually used the thing. It's from an online D&D article, so I can't imagine more than a small handful of DMs even knew about it before the few people who used it/read it out of interest realized how brutally overpowering an encounter it is for 3rd level and spread the word. I bet it sees a lot more play just because of its reputation, so DMs who have used it likely understood what they were getting into.

big teej
2010-11-29, 10:56 PM
@ "that damn crab"

:smalleek: holy crap!

....I'm going to use this...:smallamused:

to the point

displacer beasts and hatchling kythons

Sir_Chivalry
2010-11-29, 11:01 PM
Bar-lgura, from BoVD. The party got turned to pulpy goodness until the paladin got her act together.

Crossblade
2010-11-29, 11:08 PM
I've used a number of small crabs before. With all that grapple, it was a hard fight for the party.

However, the hardest fight ever would have been a Frenzied Berserker. Had it not specifically wanted the party tank dead, it likely would have downed any other party member in 1-2 hits/turns.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-29, 11:21 PM
In the right circumstances Shocker Lizards can be more of a handful than expected, especially with three or more of them. Bullettes seem to me to have an awful lot of bang for the buck and can often take an unprepared party by surprise. I had one almost tear a party to shreds until they realized that they'd better pack it in. Behirs can be devastating when played well and they are nasty. But even Pixies can be quite vexing if played well.

Sometimes I find that having several different creatures working in concert, even those with whom the players are familiar, can make planning a defense/attack difficult.

JaronK
2010-11-29, 11:30 PM
That Adamantine Horror might just take the cake for most messed up thing to throw at your players. Shadows are a pain too.

JaronK

flabort
2010-11-29, 11:31 PM
I'm imagining... A druid's meddling has struck in the swamps...
The crabs, big, small, and monstrous, all rise up, chattering amongst themselves...
One of the strongest sees that in order to lead the pack, it'll need to get stronger.
It takes levels in Frenzied berserker.

I'd be terrified if a DM threw a monstrous crab with FB levels at me, though. Even worse if it took hulking hurler.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-29, 11:32 PM
That Adamantine Horror might just take the cake for most messed up thing to throw at your players. Shadows are a pain too.

JaronK

Heck, using animate object on an adamant object is mean. Especially the Sneak attacking Shadowcaster version. Mmmmmm.

thubby
2010-11-29, 11:51 PM
anything that grapples before level 7-ish.
wolves and their dire counterparts.

dragons
and maybe it's just how i play them, but my group is afraid of kobolds.

JaronK
2010-11-29, 11:56 PM
and maybe it's just how i play them, but my group is afraid of kobolds.

If your group doesn't shriek in terror at the mention of Kobolds, either you're running Kobolds wrong, or they're playing as Kobolds.

JaronK

MyLifeMyMusical
2010-11-30, 12:00 AM
In one of my first games, my group spent at least 20 rounds trying to kill this [string of expletives] Dire Weasel (right before taking out the would be BBEG in 2 rounds).

Safety Sword
2010-11-30, 12:16 AM
:smalleek: unholy crab!



Fixed.

I second displacer beasts. And any incorporeal undead... 50% miss chance "just suck it" is nasty.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-11-30, 12:26 AM
I'm imagining... A druid's meddling has struck in the swamps...
The crabs, big, small, and monstrous, all rise up, chattering amongst themselves...
One of the strongest sees that in order to lead the pack, it'll need to get stronger.
It takes levels in Frenzied berserker.

I'd be terrified if a DM threw a monstrous crab with FB levels at me, though. Even worse if it took hulking hurler.

You haven't seen Fax's Crabthulhu thought exercise then. :smalltongue: The crab god mocks your puny crab with just levels in Frenzied Berserker!

Zaq
2010-11-30, 03:18 AM
Cranium Rat Swarm. My players still bring that up occasionally. I sent a single normal Cranium Rat Swarm (CR 5) and a single Lesser Cranium Rat Swarm (CR 2) against a party of four or five level 6 PCs. I also toned down their defenses, turning "immune to weapon damage" into "takes half damage from weapons" so the warblade and crusader wouldn't feel shafted. Man, that was an ugly fight. Don't use Cranium Rat Swarms.

thubby
2010-11-30, 05:11 AM
Cranium Rat Swarm. My players still bring that up occasionally. I sent a single normal Cranium Rat Swarm (CR 5) and a single Lesser Cranium Rat Swarm (CR 2) against a party of four or five level 6 PCs. I also toned down their defenses, turning "immune to weapon damage" into "takes half damage from weapons" so the warblade and crusader wouldn't feel shafted. Man, that was an ugly fight. Don't use Cranium Rat Swarms.

speaking of swarms, the hellwasps are pretty nasty if they get a surprise round.

Runestar
2010-11-30, 05:29 AM
The remohaz can be devastating if it catches the party by surprise, bursting from underground, grappling one of the PCs and swallowing him next round. I guess wotc's definition of "expends 25% of the party's resources" also includes "insta-gibbing one of the party members". :smallannoyed:

I agree with the bar-luga being fairly tough for its cr5. Its dr/sr is pretty significant, and few PCs can hope to make the dc18 will save against its abduction power.

Another one - martial adept classes from tome of battle can interact unusually well with high HD/low cr monsters, so you may need to evaluate their cr independently.

Mastikator
2010-11-30, 06:04 AM
Maybe eating 25% of the party counts as expending 25% of their resources :smalltongue:

Eldan
2010-11-30, 06:08 AM
Our party was horribly unoptimized at the time (I think we had a bard, a monk and a cleric who tried to heal out of combat and blast in it and something else), but we were completely wiped out.

By a charging Rhino (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rhinoceros.htm).

That charge is just nasty, it killed the monk outright, then proceeded to leisurely slaughter the rest of the group. I mean, 4d6+24? Ouch?

Eldariel
2010-11-30, 06:21 AM
I once unleashed an Annis Hag (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hag.htm#annis) on a (dreadfully underoptimized) level 6 party. I had to remove like half her HP to stop it from being a TPK. Improved Grab + Rake + Rend does nasty damage. And of course, there was a surprise round involved; no self-respecting Hag appears a Hag when encountering people she plans to eat. Imagine my surprise as I was thinking an even-CRd encounter would be a walkover...

Hanuman
2010-11-30, 06:34 AM
For a brute?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bulette.htm

2d6+4 x 4 claws +15 melee at 10' reach and made with a jump, fast, big and burrowing.
And then he jumps down on you as a falling object, then a +25 grapple.


For thinkers?

KOBOLDS

A handful of CR 1/4's and a couple CR 1/2 to 1 traps can TPKO a party very very fast.

DarkEternal
2010-11-30, 07:32 AM
For a challenge rating 4 monsters, Basiliks are pretty dangerous. One botched save and you are pretty much dead at those levels.

Runestar
2010-11-30, 07:36 AM
For a challenge rating 4 monsters, Basiliks are pretty dangerous. One botched save and you are pretty much dead at those levels.

Of course, if everyone just closed their eyes...:smalltongue:

Hanuman
2010-11-30, 07:37 AM
Of course, if everyone just closed their eyes...:smalltongue:
Yeah, you can just use peripheral vision too.

DarkEternal
2010-11-30, 08:09 AM
Yeah, you can close your eyes, but then you get some massive penalties and the basilisk is pretty much invisible to you, so if there's something else in the party with them you'll get a lot of damage.

Hell, if they are alone, they'll just keep biting you over and over.

Not overpowered hard, but for their level, I think they are more then a challenge.

Killer Angel
2010-11-30, 08:15 AM
If your group doesn't shriek in terror at the mention of Kobolds, either you're running Kobolds wrong, or they're playing as Kobolds.


...or they're virgin minds who need to be educated... :smallbiggrin:

My experience: three Mezzoloth against a group of 5 PC (PCs of 10-11° lev., but underoptimized). Almost a TPK. One of my worst selection for a combat, I totally missed their real potential.

Flickerdart
2010-11-30, 08:23 AM
Udoroots are pretty hardcore when you advance them so they can manifest the next level of astral constructs.
Tendriculos are also pretty absurd, with their grapple check and paralysis. Used one yesterday in conjunction with four spriggans, the fight took 13 rounds and ended with two PCs in the negatives and the psion completely out of PPs. When I used spriggans before, I missed that they can cast Produce Flame at will, which makes their attacks considerably better than with their short swords.

FMArthur
2010-11-30, 09:02 AM
Almost every monster that is supposed to sneakily engage the party when they least expect seems to be designed to kill at least one party member outright. If your party doesn't have a dedicated scouter who is very good at his job, a ridiculously large amount of monsters have free reign to murder a party member at their leisure.


Meenlocks, for instance, are CR3 aberrations found in groups underground or in forests and apparently stalk players for days using 300ft range wisdom damage periodically. Each of them can project a fear aura that renders victims catatonic (DC 14, 30ft) for 1d4+4 rounds, and every attack they make forces a Fortitude save against 3d6 round paralysis. They coordinate using 300ft range telepathy and use Dimension Door at will. It's a good thing they prefer to drag victims into their tiny holes to expose them to their own unending torment via horrifying 1d6-hours-long irreversable transformation instead of simply using coups de grace, isn't it? Isn't it. :smalleek:

Meenlocks come up a lot in 'most frightening creature' threads.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-30, 09:10 AM
...or they're virgin minds who need to be educated...

Would you care to educate me, then? Because the quintessential kobold story -Tucker's Kobolds - is entirely underwhelming. Party leader panicks, runs into enemy territory, and the expected consequences ensue. Nothing about that story that makes the kobolds more responsible for mission failure than the players. Humans, elves, or goblins could do the same.

From an IC perspective, if kobolds followed the RotD fluff, I'd be damn scared of them as a race and culture, but individually (and the way most campaigns depict them) they're puny.

WinWin
2010-11-30, 09:14 AM
I think the threat of Tuckers Kobolds was that they were not the main opposition. They were the speedbump on the way to and out of a dungeon.

They sapped resources on the way in. Then the party made sure they conserved enough resources to escape the area.

Killer Angel
2010-11-30, 09:28 AM
Would you care to educate me, then? Because the quintessential kobold story -Tucker's Kobolds - is entirely underwhelming. Party leader panicks, runs into enemy territory, and the expected consequences ensue. Nothing about that story that makes the kobolds more responsible for mission failure than the players.

That's the point. Weak monsters played intelligently, use of smart tactics, and the players that feel that they're losing control, hence the panic and the mistakes.
Tucker's kobold are only the most well known example of a wrong mental attitude: we're stronger then them, they are no threat. The consequences are unexpected... for the overconfident ones.
In my mind, fearing kobolds is not "Kobold are deadly", but is "be aware of your limits, never underestimate a foe, even if is weaker than you".

panaikhan
2010-11-30, 09:31 AM
I know our group struggled against Ignan Yuan-Ti (think that was the name).
Perfectly CR-appropriate (according to the numbers) but tough fights.

LordBlades
2010-11-30, 09:47 AM
Eye of the deep

CR8 with an at will DC 22 60 ft. cone of stun and blindness as a free action.

In addition to eye rays of cone of cold and DC 18 hold monster and decent melee attacks.

Oh, and persistent image at will.

Flickerdart
2010-11-30, 01:09 PM
Eye of the deep

CR8 with an at will DC 22 60 ft. cone of stun and blindness as a free action.

In addition to eye rays of cone of cold and DC 18 hold monster and decent melee attacks.

Oh, and persistent image at will.
That's not surprising though - it's immediately apparent that the creature is ridiculous, rather than only becoming clear when it's eaten the third PC in the surprise round.

Mecharious
2010-11-30, 01:25 PM
My friend was going to DM a group of new players, so he wanted me and my friends to test the dungeon (he found it online) before he used it. It's a good thing he did.

The end boss was supposed to be CR4 or something. It had:

Displacement
DR
Flight
Fireball spell at CL 9
High AC
Undead immunities
Huge Turn Undead resistance
Laser attack (did like 4d6 damage two times or something) at will.
Immunity to fire, cold, and lightning
SR 17ish

He was wondering what the hell the designer was thinking when he put that boss in there. Up until that point, everything was easy enough.

Angry Bob
2010-11-30, 03:09 PM
Actually, I think the kobolds only count if you have them deploy traps that cripple the party unexpectedly. If you play them, or really any creature intelligently, you should be expecting to inflict some pain.

Also, +1 to kythons, and not just the hatchlings. Lost half a party to a pair of impalers that the DM later admitted he had no idea were that strong.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-30, 03:36 PM
A coven of hags can be extremely nasty, especially if you make sure they use everything they have available to them (like Forcecage and Veil).

Nimblewrights can be tough with their tripping crits and high AC and SR.

These gave my relatively low-op group a lot of trouble, at least.

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-30, 03:45 PM
My players still complain about my acid-breathing octopus.

(Acid Breathing allows the creature to survive in acid. Octopus allows the creature to grapple. Grappling enemies into acid makes death.)

Sipex
2010-11-30, 04:01 PM
D&D 4e here.

Needlefang drake swarms. A swarm in 4e is basically a medium creature which takes 1/2 damage from melee and ranged attacks and extra damage from aoe attacks. These guys are pretty low level so any class with focus fire (most) has trouble downing them and they have an aura which deals damage.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-30, 05:30 PM
Huh, I thought I once saw that Kobolds because of their emaciated forms could fit into spaces fitted to tiny creatures, but I don't see it in the SRD or Monster's Manual. Huh, weird.

Iamyourking
2010-11-30, 05:34 PM
Try either Races of the Dragon or the online articles; one of them has Slight Build.

Siosilvar
2010-11-30, 05:34 PM
Huh, I thought I once saw that Kobolds because of their emaciated forms could fit into spaces fitted to tiny creatures, but I don't see it in the SRD or Monster's Manual. Huh, weird.

Kobold web enhancement. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

Ormur
2010-11-30, 05:46 PM
I unleashed both shadows and that damn crab on my group in the span of two sessions. To even it out I played the crabs according to their int score and gave the players hints about the shadows so they did okay.

Eurus
2010-11-30, 05:54 PM
I had a surprising amount of fun sending my players against a half dozen or so level 1 human commoners, once. The players were only level 2 or so, but they didn't have any decent AoEs at the time. Thanks to favorable terrain, aid another and readied actions, and the use of tower shields and ranged/reach weapons, those commoners did a surprising amount of damage. :smallbiggrin:

dbauers
2010-11-30, 06:14 PM
My group was fighting an athach. Im the wizard and thinking, well, its a giant so it will have lots of hp, high str/melee dmg, but pretty low AC and a pitiful will save.

I'll glitterdust it and we can whittle him down while he's blind. Um, yeah. Its an aberration with high will save. Made the save, and pounded the crusader into goo. My bad. Giant-like guy with high will save is a pretty nasty combo.

Runestar
2010-11-30, 08:23 PM
D&D 4e here.

Needlefang drake swarms. A swarm in 4e is basically a medium creature which takes 1/2 damage from melee and ranged attacks and extra damage from aoe attacks. These guys are pretty low level so any class with focus fire (most) has trouble downing them and they have an aura which deals damage.

IIRC, their damage was quite heavily nerfed in a recent errata article.

Kobolds can be tricky. A kobold adept4 is cr1 by the rules, and can cast 2nd lv spells like scorching ray or web. :smallamused:

BenTheJester
2010-11-30, 08:30 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what is so bad about the crab(no, not that kind of crabs)?

The huge grapple bonus?

balistafreak
2010-11-30, 08:42 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what is so bad about the crab(no, not that kind of crabs)?

The huge grapple bonus?

It's rated CR 3.

Look at those stats, then at CR 3, then back at those stats. Your pants are now diamonds wet.

(It has 7 Hit Dice. It is most certainly NOT a CR 3 encounter.)

Coidzor
2010-11-30, 08:53 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what is so bad about the crab(no, not that kind of crabs)?

The huge grapple bonus?

That, and it can move freely while grappling 2 PCs, walk back into the water and swim away under the surface and wait for the PCs to drown as they aren't escaping.

But it would probably kill them first before they drowned.

The other PCs are not really going to be able to take it out, and it can just walk up to 2 PCs, attack and grab 'em, and then get back underneath the surface of the water, probably breaking line of sight, the next round, and then be lost forever due moving/swimming away.

Alternatively, it is strong enough that it can take 'em out in a straight fight.

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-30, 08:57 PM
Okay, so, let's take a level 3 barbarian. He has 14 CON. He rolled totally average, so that's 8.5 HP per level times 3 for a total of 25 HP.

The crab full attacks him and almost certainly hits with at least one attack, since even against AC 18 or 20 it has a 50-50 chance of hitting.

Then it deals an average of 13 damage. The strongest member of the party is now at half HP. It now attempts to grapple and succeeds at the grapple because it has +19 to grapple.

The next turn it grabs the fighter. Then it walks underwater and they drown. Or maybe it just finishes them off by crushing them because it can deal half their HP per hit.

And that's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is the one where it one-hit kills the wizard first.

Angry Bob
2010-11-30, 09:14 PM
Nah. Worst-case is where you're wading through the shallows and this thing shows up and instagibs the wizard and the melee guy. I'd say the healstick too, but anything that fights this at level three may be a bit beyond healing when it gets done with them.

big teej
2010-11-30, 09:39 PM
Our party was horribly unoptimized at the time (I think we had a bard, a monk and a cleric who tried to heal out of combat and blast in it and something else), but we were completely wiped out.

By a charging Rhino (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rhinoceros.htm).

That charge is just nasty, it killed the monk outright, then proceeded to leisurely slaughter the rest of the group. I mean, 4d6+24? Ouch?

My Knight is gonna have one as a mount :smallbiggrin: (DM cleared it and everything)


Actually, I think the kobolds only count if you have them deploy traps that cripple the party unexpectedly. If you play them, or really any creature intelligently, you should be expecting to inflict some pain.

Also, +1 to kythons, and not just the hatchlings. Lost half a party to a pair of impalers that the DM later admitted he had no idea were that strong.

yea, I was rereading the kython entry today (trying to decide if a juvie was an acceptable boss monster) and read over the impalers, I plan to use that in maaaaaaaaybe another 3 levels, I plan on throwing on at the party with specific instructions to 'kill the paladin'

you know, in hindsight, thanks to the paladin player lobbing a plot hook at me that I just HAD to use (in game and in character no less!!) I've noticed he's become the focus of .... alot of my DM plotting....

recurring villian, assasination plots... well, everything sorta revolves around that recurrin villian

and I'm predicting next session that he'll have ANOTHER enemy out to get him...

wierd

/ramble



I had a surprising amount of fun sending my players against a half dozen or so level 1 human commoners, once. The players were only level 2 or so, but they didn't have any decent AoEs at the time. Thanks to favorable terrain, aid another and readied actions, and the use of tower shields and ranged/reach weapons, those commoners did a surprising amount of damage. :smallbiggrin:

I... like this plan
may I steal it?

Volos
2010-11-30, 09:55 PM
"The X Rages, Frenzies, and turns into a Bear."

This phrase tends to put fear into my party. Frenzied Bear Warrior Bezerkers populate my world like rats for one reason or another.

Also Kython. Whenever I level them or put templates over them, my party wipes them up like kobolds. If I leave them alone and just toss them into the right/wrong situation... they nearly TPK every time. You should have seen the look on the Half-Black Dragon's face when he realized his breath weapon was useless.


I had a surprising amount of fun sending my players against a half dozen or so level 1 human commoners, once. The players were only level 2 or so, but they didn't have any decent AoEs at the time. Thanks to favorable terrain, aid another and readied actions, and the use of tower shields and ranged/reach weapons, those commoners did a surprising amount of damage. :smallbiggrin:

I usually just use mobs and non-leathal damage. It surprisingly took my players several tries to realize that messing with the common folk wasn't the best idea. Setting houses on fire, blatantly breaking the law, stealing their daughters, and assaulting the guards is a one way ticket to a mob beatdown. I think they were... 15th level before they could handle fighting against a village worth of people? Even then they had to watch themselves or they would get grappled into submission. I use mob rules for zombies as well, making them more exciting to fight in large numbers without too much effort on my part.

Hanuman
2010-11-30, 10:18 PM
Okay, so, let's take a level 3 barbarian. He has 14 CON. He rolled totally average, so that's 8.5 HP per level times 3 for a total of 25 HP.

The crab full attacks him and almost certainly hits with at least one attack, since even against AC 18 or 20 it has a 50-50 chance of hitting.

Then it deals an average of 13 damage. The strongest member of the party is now at half HP. It now attempts to grapple and succeeds at the grapple because it has +19 to grapple.

The next turn it grabs the fighter. Then it walks underwater and they drown. Or maybe it just finishes them off by crushing them because it can deal half their HP per hit.

And that's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is the one where it one-hit kills the wizard first.
A 3rd level wizard has 2nd level spells.

Round 1: The party unleashes both marbles and sculped grease, ok mr. crab with 0 ranks in balance, make your checks if you want to get in range.
Second level core spell? Web.

Magic Missiles Away!

ITS GETTING CLOSE! DROW POISON, FIRE!

It's going to start failing one of these rolls, if by luck it makes most of them then you can keep trying the drow poison and kiting away and using full defense for dex characters when it gets close (+15 to grapple means nothing if you have to hit a 24AC character with a +5 melee). Marbles around where you are will allow more battlefield control.

Remember that it's mindless, you can outsmart it into a coup de grace.

That being said, 66 avr HP for a level 3 enemy is a BIT much, you better not be surprise rounded by this thing.

Angry Bob
2010-11-30, 10:24 PM
The DM might rule that its legs make it immune to the marbles, though probably not the grease.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-30, 11:07 PM
Oozes. You would think they would be pushovers, but unfortunately no side is down.

Weasel of Doom
2010-12-01, 12:57 AM
A 3rd level wizard has 2nd level spells.

Round 1: The party unleashes both marbles and sculped grease, ok mr. crab with 0 ranks in balance, make your checks if you want to get in range.
Second level core spell? Web.

Magic Missiles Away!

ITS GETTING CLOSE! DROW POISON, FIRE!

It's going to start failing one of these rolls, if by luck it makes most of them then you can keep trying the drow poison and kiting away and using full defense for dex characters when it gets close (+15 to grapple means nothing if you have to hit a 24AC character with a +5 melee). Marbles around where you are will allow more battlefield control.

Remember that it's mindless, you can outsmart it into a coup de grace.

That being said, 66 avr HP for a level 3 enemy is a BIT much, you better not be surprise rounded by this thing.

Hmm, I don't think it would be as easy as you seem to think.

Presumably it would be attacking the pcs on a beach either in or near the water since it's a coastal animal.
Because of this I don't think grease would work since neither sand or water are solid surfaces as called for in the grease spell description.
Not sure about marbles (are they house-ruled or in a book somewhere?) because I don't know the rules but I don't see them working anywhere except hard stone floors.
Web needs diametrically opposed points to anchor it or it disappears, not sure about you but the beaches around me are pretty lacking in solid (or any) anchors.

I also wouldn't want to rely on drow poison against this thing.
First you have to hit and injure it, certainly possible but it does have 10ft reach and 19 ac so melee isn't a sure thing.
Then it has to fail a dc 13 fort save which, considering it's got a +10 is pretty unlikely.
Drow poison is 75gp a pop so you'll probably blow through a lot of loot taking it down that way.

And as far as I can tell it's +10 melee not +5

It'd be easier to take out in a dungeon and it's not invincible but is definately a nasty monster.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-01, 12:59 AM
Its a mini-Chuul! Yay mini-Chuuls!

The mini-Beholders are evil.

Sitzkrieg
2010-12-01, 02:19 AM
I accidentally slaughtered a level 5 druid with a Dire Wolf and 4 regular CR 1 wolves. Once you're tripped and surrounded, you're basically toast. Trolls are also pretty deadly for level 5 characters. 3 decent attack rolls and they can drop a full-health fighter in a single round.

Hida Reju
2010-12-01, 02:29 AM
I still get things thrown at me for this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060721a) one

Basically a lvl 7 party of 6 people with ok optimization faced a pair of lvl 2 Rogue/2 Ninja Skiurid. With about 15 of the basic ones as backup.

It ended up with the party running for their lives they brought the two big ones down but had very little left for the small ones. That 1D6 damage from Chill darkness was killing them when it was done 3 times in a round.

Schylerwalker
2010-12-01, 02:38 AM
I agree that when used correctly Behirs are absolutely devastating. Not a lot of hitpoints and Armor Class, but they can basically kill one party member a turn with a full attack.

Also, Mohrgs are BRUTAL, especially a pair of them working in concert.

Hanuman
2010-12-01, 03:51 AM
Hmm, I don't think it would be as easy as you seem to think.

Presumably it would be attacking the pcs on a beach either in or near the water since it's a coastal animal.
Because of this I don't think grease would work since neither sand or water are solid surfaces as called for in the grease spell description.
Not sure about marbles (are they house-ruled or in a book somewhere?) because I don't know the rules but I don't see them working anywhere except hard stone floors.
Web needs diametrically opposed points to anchor it or it disappears, not sure about you but the beaches around me are pretty lacking in solid (or any) anchors.

I also wouldn't want to rely on drow poison against this thing.
First you have to hit and injure it, certainly possible but it does have 10ft reach and 19 ac so melee isn't a sure thing.
Then it has to fail a dc 13 fort save which, considering it's got a +10 is pretty unlikely.
Drow poison is 75gp a pop so you'll probably blow through a lot of loot taking it down that way.

And as far as I can tell it's +10 melee not +5

It'd be easier to take out in a dungeon and it's not invincible but is definately a nasty monster.
Bwhaha, no, drow poison is at ranged.

Mm yes I was using it's BAB not post-strength.

It's +8 after cloudy conjuration, meaning a 30% chance or so on top of hitting the crabs weakpoint for massive damage.

Rocks and logs for anchors, even without anchors it still resists charges, running, attack rolls (especially for grapple), and -4 to dexterity to avoid marbles and grease.

As far as the beaches, even the most sandy white beaches on earth have rocky coast lines that the tides wash over trapping sea life, and since the description of the crabs assumes they scavenge shores I'd wager a good chance that these are either tidal flats or porous outcroppings, and if it's a tidal flat then it's probably going to be the one in the picture, which appears as though it might have sufficient anchors. If not, you could claim that the two anchors are a single stone flat and use the crab as the second anchor as a tether.

Marbles and grease might not work, agreed. Without those two options, a wizard is kinda sunk?

Druids on the other hand have a combination of brier web and hold animal that can really do a number on melee ground animals.

Person_Man
2010-12-01, 10:27 AM
Anything with a Save or Lose effect, even if it's weak. Things like the Bodak (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bodak.htm), Chuul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chuul.htm), and various oozes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm) are weak enough that a Fighter of the appropriate level should be able to kill them in 1 round. But if a small group of monsters wins Initiative and take out 1 or 2 players before they can act thanks to a botched Saving Throw, then a random combat can suddenly become TPK.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-01, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I had a level 6 party wipe to a harpy. That was the only time I ever just retconned an encounter, since it was a pretty pointless fight in the first place.

HalfTangible
2010-12-01, 01:10 PM
In our first encounter, a single goblin rolled a natural 20 on his first attack and brought our healer down to -4.

....

We left.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-12-01, 04:02 PM
two things about that damn crab: grease is still useful, apply to the crab (not the ground) add alchemist fire or some other ignition, Poof! crab flambe'. Alternately, apply grease to the character most likely to be/already grappled, giving him a +10 to escape the crab. Also, doesn't glitterdust still pwn the crab since it's reliant on normal vision?

Slipperychicken
2010-12-01, 06:20 PM
Two words: Minotaur. Ninja.

Makiru
2010-12-01, 06:48 PM
The megatherium (giant land sloth) out of FF. When that thing decides to focus fire a guy, he won't have HP for very long.

Also, I'm surprised nobody has brought up Allips yet.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-01, 06:59 PM
Speaking of low CR incorporeal creatures, Ephemeral Swarms. It's even harder to kill than shadows or allips due to its swarm nature and high HP. Special mention goes to its ability to deal no save, no attack roll strength damage to up to four party members per turn. And it kills at 0 strength.

Talon Sky
2010-12-01, 07:51 PM
Also, I'm surprised nobody has brought up Allips yet.

I never thought Allips were that difficult to handle, not like Shadows.

true_shinken
2010-12-01, 08:13 PM
I never thought Allips were that difficult to handle, not like Shadows.

Think again, allips are even harder. They get temp hp, have higher initiative and a debuff in addition to their touch attacks.

ericgrau
2010-12-01, 08:15 PM
A 3rd level wizard has 2nd level spells.

Round 1: The party unleashes both marbles and sculped grease, ok mr. crab with 0 ranks in balance, make your checks if you want to get in range.
Second level core spell? Web.

Magic Missiles Away!

ITS GETTING CLOSE! DROW POISON, FIRE!

It's going to start failing one of these rolls, if by luck it makes most of them then you can keep trying the drow poison and kiting away and using full defense for dex characters when it gets close (+15 to grapple means nothing if you have to hit a 24AC character with a +5 melee). Marbles around where you are will allow more battlefield control.

Remember that it's mindless, you can outsmart it into a coup de grace.

That being said, 66 avr HP for a level 3 enemy is a BIT much, you better not be surprise rounded by this thing.
You're also counting on a lot of successful rolls. For one initiative is a 50:50 shot, and he has a 65% chance of making his balance check. You better open with web instead... in a beach environment, when the spell requires two opposing walls to cast it. Crud.Even if he fails, his hefty HP pool means he'll break free and TPK the party soon enough. Glitterdust might work help a little if he fails his save and you ignore the blindness rules. Even flailing about he should manage to grab someone within 2-6 rounds and automatically grapple him to death from there. Except within 3 rounds the blindness wears off. I think any viable strategy would involve the PCs sneaking up on him and not vis versa while employing a complicated trap of Scooby Doo proportions. Nah, this guy is just ridiculous.

Allips run into problems when this is ignored:

Organization: Solitary
All the Allip fluff seems to get ignored for that matter.

Silus
2010-12-01, 08:35 PM
The Calzone Golem.

+AC when exposed to fire attacks, and we blasted it with 16 Damage in the first round of combat (Synchronized, ready actioned double chug of vials of "Liquid Evil Fire", a homebrewed booze that hit for like 3d6 in a 30ft cone with no reflex save for Good creatures). Guy gained +6 AC from that, and dealt 1hp of fire damage whenever attacked with piercing and/or slashing weapons.

Thank God for a Tiefling's 5 Fire Resistance.

Akal Saris
2010-12-01, 08:39 PM
The OP's mention of the Ogre Mage reminded me of a moment from 2E. I was running a solo game for a 16/16 Mage/Thief - somebody high level enough that he was single-handedly opposing an evil empire. One random encounter while the PC was traveling put him against a standard ogre magi.

After about five minutes of perfect rolls from me and absolutely terrible rolls for the PC, the PC surrendered to the ogre magi and both agreed never to meet each other again in return for the PC's +4 vorpal sword and a few other magical items.


For 3.5:
A Bleakborn from Libris Mortis is another insanely difficult opponent, by the way.

AslanCross
2010-12-01, 09:15 PM
Although not a creature, the Voidmind Template grants a whole slew of powerful buffs on a creature for +1 to CR. It's great on giants, since it goes around their primary weakness (lousy will saves) by making them completely immune to mind-affecting spells. The Sentient Tentacle goes well with their grappling ability, and their Illithid hosts can fire off mind blasts and psionic powers through them. From five miles away.

Also seconding the Behir. The half-fiend behir in RHOD is one of the notoriously dangerous bosses in that adventure. It's really difficult to beat a +27 grapple check at Lv 8. Not to mention that when it swallows someone, it can automatically bite (thanks to Cleave) and start another grapple.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-02, 12:31 AM
Drowned.

Heck, anything that drowns people, really. I once saw a party of 13th level characters nearly wipe to a water elementite swarm.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-12-02, 04:34 PM
Is the phantasmal slayer from HoH as dangerous as it seems at a glance?

bannable
2010-12-02, 05:39 PM
That Adamantine Horror might just take the cake for most messed up thing to throw at your players. Shadows are a pain too.

JaronK

Don't those have at-will disjunction? :smalleek:

Angry Bob
2010-12-02, 06:30 PM
Is the phantasmal slayer from HoH as dangerous as it seems at a glance?

Throw it at a "level-appropriate" party and find out.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-02, 07:12 PM
Don't those have at-will disjunction? :smalleek:

And Disintegrate, if the party flees through a wall or something. Oh, and Implosion, for some damn reason. My theory is that the guy who wrote it had a brain fart and thought you got 9th-level spells at 9th level.

stainboy
2010-12-02, 07:39 PM
That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) has to be mentioned, though I haven't had the, ahem, pleasure of seeing it in action firsthand.

Wow, that thing is Death's right hand for a 3rd level party. Er, Death's right claw. Death's right auto-grappling, auto-constricting, 2x per round claw.

I did the same thing with a rhinoceros once. Saw the CR 4, didn't read Powerful Charge, figured I could send a rhino with a rider against a 4th level party and it'd be a straightforward fight. Noooope.

faceroll
2010-12-02, 08:32 PM
Hill giants throwing boulders against a party with low AC, from a height position with a lot of open space. One PC was dead and another unconscious in the first round of combat. Mostly core game with high op, level 7 or 8?

Giants with cleric levels, for their CR, are really nasty. Crusaders + low level monsters become really nasty threats when you start stacking maneuver, boost, and stance bonuses on them.

Kobolds, between the web enhancement and dragonwrought, and their low CR, make really nasty threats. Nothing like a room full of loredrak kobolds that take up the size of house cats and have a claw claw bite routine.


Okay, so, let's take a level 3 barbarian. He has 14 CON. He rolled totally average, so that's 8.5 HP per level times 3 for a total of 25 HP.

The crab full attacks him and almost certainly hits with at least one attack, since even against AC 18 or 20 it has a 50-50 chance of hitting.

Then it deals an average of 13 damage. The strongest member of the party is now at half HP. It now attempts to grapple and succeeds at the grapple because it has +19 to grapple.

The next turn it grabs the fighter. Then it walks underwater and they drown. Or maybe it just finishes them off by crushing them because it can deal half their HP per hit.

And that's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is the one where it one-hit kills the wizard first.

The wizard should grease his allies while they're getting grappled. When the crab tries to walk with them, and they are greased, they get like an effective +30 to their grapple checks. The crab trying to grapple two creatures and walk at the same time gives his grapple checks a -20 penalty. Fax forgot that rule when he/his DM ran it

.

randomhero00
2010-12-02, 08:37 PM
That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) has to be mentioned, though I haven't had the, ahem, pleasure of seeing it in action firsthand.

Explain? That doesn't sound like a crab. Sounds like a serpent.

Also reminds me of the Aion MMORPG where there's this crab that's ridiculous...

Runestar
2010-12-02, 08:40 PM
Kobolds, between the web enhancement and dragonwrought, and their low CR, make really nasty threats. Nothing like a room full of loredrak kobolds that take up the size of house cats and have a claw claw bite routine.

I was fiddling around with the cr system and interestingly enough, this is what I came up with for a kobold npc.

Kobold warrior4/sorc17 with greater rite of passage. Cr18 (comparable to a human sorc18 npc), still gives you sorc18 spellcasting, and more importantly, it can select an epic feat because it has 21HD. Hello epic spellcasting...:smallbiggrin:

If you want to go one step further, slap on dragonwrought to qualify for loredrake, giving it sorc20 spellcasting (still cr18).

Yah, hill giant with non-associated class lvs are nasty. A hill giant cleric13 is just cr14?!? :smalleek:

Eldariel
2010-12-02, 08:50 PM
Explain? That doesn't sound like a crab. Sounds like a serpent.

Also reminds me of the Aion MMORPG where there's this crab that's ridiculous...

Scroll. Down.


And yeah, Allips are a friggin' pain. Temp HP, turn as 6 HD creatures (and if turned, they just run through walls), wis DRAIN you can't cure for another 4 levels if you face it on level 3 (let alone level 1), immune to most weapons and at 50% with magic weapons, a random DC 16 AoE will-save which can screw half the party over right off the bat (characters with good Will-saves on this level tend to have like +9, and that's a Druid/Cleric with 20 Wisdom + Resistance +1; poor Will-save types without Wis-focus might be looking at +1-+2).

Oh, and for good measure it has AC 15 which isn't all that bad for an incorporeal and happens to help quite a bit if someone does roll the 50% miss chance while it's attacking from e.g. inside a wall (Cover for +4 AC). For a party of 4 level 1s, an Allip should be a "challenging" fight; good luck with that.

Runestar
2010-12-02, 08:53 PM
How are a group of lv1-2 PCs supposed to access magic weapons? The cleric may not have prepared magic weapon, and the wizard might not have magic missile. Unless you have holy water...

Eldariel
2010-12-02, 08:54 PM
How are a group of lv1-2 PCs supposed to access magic weapons? The cleric may not have prepared magic weapon, and the wizard might not have magic missile. Unless you have holy water...

Heh. I always carry a Scroll of Magic Weapon around for this very reason; 25gp well spent. Holy Water helps but in the case of an Allip, loltempHpyou'renotkillingit.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-02, 09:15 PM
Nilshai from UE are pretty nasty. It's an 8th level sorcerer with at-will etherealness and permanent 3.0 haste at CR 7. They can jaunt in, cast two spells, and jaunt back out, since their first trip is a free action and the second is a move action. No way is that something most 7th level parties can handle.

The Malaugrim is a CR 4 creature with constant CL 20 Shapechange. Just... no.

AslanCross
2010-12-02, 09:21 PM
Drowned.

Heck, anything that drowns people, really. I once saw a party of 13th level characters nearly wipe to a water elementite swarm.

The Drowned is crazy. I once threw that and a black dragon at the party (I ruled that since the dragon can breathe water, it isn't affected by the drowning aura; besides, it can fly and leave the aura). I had to fudge a fatal attack with that.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-12-02, 10:00 PM
Oozes. You would think they would be pushovers, but unfortunately no side is down.

Yeah, that's a hard, but important lesson to learn in 3.5... you never fight an ooze in melee. Ever. You kite the ooze, nice and steady. Just move away, and let the warlock or whatever kill the thing, one little chunk of hp at a time.

I'll second/third/whatever Drowned and Meenlocks. Bad times.

Schylerwalker
2010-12-03, 01:45 PM
Just threw a pair of trolls at a level 5 party of 6 people. CR 7 encounter, no biggy, they're just trolls. Unfortunately, the characters with the lowest AC rushed into combat and promptly took about 45 damage apiece. A very new player to the group had the most beautiful expression of woe on her face when she found out trolls have regeneration and do rend damage if they hit with both claws.

Only a few lucky crits, some acid vials, and judicious use of burning hands won the day in that fight.

Later, they fought a chimera, also CR 7, and cleaned its clock. :smallsigh: