scry on xykons phylactery [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Felixc-91

2010-11-30, 02:28 AM

So does that mean something? Was he away on purpose? Doesn't that point to him not wanting to fail and incur Xykons wrath? Or does he just not want to tell him? Or is it a coincidence?dude, read the strip again. 737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) its implied that the oracle is out because he dose not want to get that directly involved in world politics. i would also like to put forward the idea the maybe X was there to ask the oracle about the defences around the next gate.

factotum

2010-11-30, 02:51 AM

I think it's more likely the Oracle was out because he foresaw Xykon's visit and, well, it's XYKON! In the Oracle's own words, "Dude is frickin' scary".

tcrudisi

2010-11-30, 03:02 AM

So does that mean something? Was he away on purpose? Doesn't that point to him not wanting to fail and incur Xykons wrath? Or does he just not want to tell him? Or is it a coincidence?

It's funny you ask this, as I was just thinking about it a couple of days ago when I re-read the whole comic.

I actually think that he was gone because Tiamat is obviously one of the players/sides involved in the gate. Yes, so is the Order of the Stick, but I suspect that they have similar goals. Xykon, however, has entirely different goals, ones that I believe run counter to that of Tiamat, so therefore the Oracle was nowhere to be found when Xykon came calling.

Or, as someone else said, "Dude is frickin' scary." Maybe he just didn't want to get tortured for information endlessly.

Mewtarthio

2010-11-30, 03:20 AM

I think it's more likely the Oracle was out because he foresaw Xykon's visit and, well, it's XYKON! In the Oracle's own words, "Dude is frickin' scary".

You have to look at it from Xykon's perspective. If the Oracle can't find your phylactery, then you've just wasted your trip, so you might as well amuse yourself by killing him and binding his soul, right? On the other hand, if he can find your phylactery, then he can tell anyone else who happens to stop by about it, too, so you should kill him and bind his soul to be safe.

Hironomus

2010-11-30, 03:28 AM

dude, read the strip again. 737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) its implied that the oracle is out because he dose not want to get that directly involved in world politics. i would also like to put forward the idea the maybe X was there to ask the oracle about the defences around the next gate.

Ah thanks. I actually couldn't find this strip :smallredface: and was too preoccupied to look. But yeah that pretty much answers that question. i do wonder what exactly the oracle forsaw to make him leave though.

Souhiro

2010-11-30, 03:56 AM

You have to look at it from Xykon's perspective. If the Oracle can't find your phylactery, then you've just wasted your trip, so you might as well amuse yourself by killing him and binding his soul, right? On the other hand, if he can find your phylactery, then he can tell anyone else who happens to stop by about it, too, so you should kill him and bind his soul to be safe.

If that is possible, the Oracle just did saw itself dead and soulbound, and went to hiding, then the destiny isn't written at all! and he gives then self fulfilling prophecies to ensure that what he says is what will happen.

Red XIV

2010-11-30, 04:51 AM

Or, he saw himself not being there when Xykon showed up, because that's what actually happened.

Hironomus

2010-11-30, 05:36 AM

Ack my head. I hate discussing the relativity of time haha. sorry i asked.

blueblade

2010-11-30, 05:41 AM

Ack my head. I hate discussing the relativity of time haha. sorry i asked.

Don't be. The Oracle certainly doesn't get hung up on inevitability. Just like he did with Belkar, he's not above living his life how he sees fit, and having the future arrange itself accordingly!

But thanks TC. Going back to 737 made me reread the part about the Oracle avoiding world politics. I thought it was more to save his bacon, or mere coincidence.

tcrudisi

2010-11-30, 06:23 AM

But thanks TC. Going back to 737 made me reread the part about the Oracle avoiding world politics. I thought it was more to save his bacon, or mere coincidence.

Yeahhh, umh, no. The Oracle has already picked a side. He's assisted the OotS. Suddenly disappearing does not mean he's "avoiding world politics". He's already in it. He's given help to one side.

That means that there are other reasons why he avoided Xykon. Sure, maybe it was something small, but something tipped him over the edge to not wanting to meet with Xykon. Maybe he does prefer to avoid world politics, but the fact that the OotS were willing to pay caused him to ignore his feelings and help them anyway... and then Xykon would not have paid. Maybe Tiamat told him not to help Xykon. Regardless, something else is going on besides just some desire to avoid world politics.

Lvl45DM!

2010-11-30, 06:33 AM

He got PAID to assist one side that could only kill him when he's got a ressurection squad. Xykon can do worse

Kareasint

2010-11-30, 06:55 AM

Xykon could:

Kill and Soul Bind the Oracle if tells him where the phylactery is
Kill and Soul Bind the Oracle if he does not tell him where the phylactery is
Kill and Soul Bind the Oracle after Xykon gets info about the next Gate

Or

Xykon could simply drag the Oracle in a cage around and get questions answered any time he wanted to do so by torturing the Oracle.

I like Red's answer though. He saw Xykon in a vision approaching a door with an "Oracle is out" sign on it and made sure that the vision came true.

Dalek-K

2010-11-30, 06:58 AM

So wait... Tiamat is another player using the OoTS?

She is letting her oracle help the OoTS int heir quest... The oracle could have saw when the OoTS would come back and just not been there also. But for some reason he helped the people that held him out a window.... I'm guessing under Tiamat's command since they are trying to protect the gates that are holding one thing that can and will destroy her....

There are lots of players in this game and OoTS is getting played by all sides good and evil!

Hironomus

2010-11-30, 07:11 AM

Yeahhh, umh, no. The Oracle has already picked a side. He's assisted the OotS. Suddenly disappearing does not mean he's "avoiding world politics". He's already in it. He's given help to one side.

That means that there are other reasons why he avoided Xykon. Sure, maybe it was something small, but something tipped him over the edge to not wanting to meet with Xykon. Maybe he does prefer to avoid world politics, but the fact that the OotS were willing to pay caused him to ignore his feelings and help them anyway... and then Xykon would not have paid. Maybe Tiamat told him not to help Xykon. Regardless, something else is going on besides just some desire to avoid world politics.

haven't you seen the latest poster? the oracle is CLEARLY on team evil! :smallbiggrin:

tcrudisi

2010-11-30, 07:42 AM

So wait... Tiamat is another player using the OoTS?

That's what I think. If the Oracle is willing to disappear when one faction shows up, why wouldn't he do it for all factions (considering that he does not like world politics)? Therefore, there's a reason he stayed.

Either the sight of mere money convinces him to stay (not likely, since probably everyone is supposed to pay) or he has a vested interest in the group that he worked for. In this case, that's the OotS. That implies to me that, at the worst, the OotS goal does not interfere with Tiamat's goal (and thus he took their money and answered their questions). At the best, Tiamat's goal matches up nicely with the OotS goal (so he had a strong interest in helping them out).

factotum

2010-11-30, 07:55 AM

That's what I think. If the Oracle is willing to disappear when one faction shows up, why wouldn't he do it for all factions (considering that he does not like world politics)? Therefore, there's a reason he stayed.

Because this particular faction is prone to killing and soul-binding people it doesn't like? It does you no good to have the Resurrection Brothers on tap if they can't find your soul to bring you back!

MReav

2010-11-30, 08:05 AM

haven't you seen the latest poster? the oracle is CLEARLY on team evil! :smallbiggrin:

But he's mirrored up against Belkar, the Order's token evil teammate.

Hironomus

2010-11-30, 08:45 AM

But he's mirrored up against Belkar, the Order's token evil teammate.

Ooh nice point. is he really good though?

Souhiro

2010-11-30, 09:17 AM

But he's mirrored up against Belkar, the Order's token evil teammate.

But Belkar is an evil guy who does good things, don't forget that.

So, The Oracle is a good animal who does evil things?

Shale

2010-11-30, 09:19 AM

He does get his powers from Tiamat. One would assume she has him use them for less-than-nice purposes on occasion.

Swordpriest

2010-11-30, 09:52 AM

If that is possible, the Oracle just did saw itself dead and soulbound, and went to hiding, then the destiny isn't written at all! and he gives then self fulfilling prophecies to ensure that what he says is what will happen.

Actually, I've thought this since those two lizardmen teleported in and resurrected him. I figure he sees the future that will happen if you don't do something to prevent it from happening, and does stuff specifically to prevent it from happening. It's the only way that he can both predict things

The problem with other people is that they can't see what needs to be done to prevent the stuff he predicts from happening. Or, they don't ask.

(P.S. I find predicting the future to be more illogical by far than throwing a fireball out of your fingertips :smallbiggrin: .... so it's one of the things I try not to think about at all when reading the comic, just glazing over it as an interesting thing without trying to analyze it.)

The Pilgrim

2010-11-30, 10:50 AM

Well, the Oracle is willing to allow some customers to kill him because he can predict it and schelude to be resurrected. Bonus points if, like with Belkar, he can screw the little schump whit it.

But with Xykon, he knows that the Lich is likely to kill him, no matter which answers he gets. And after that there is a 100% chance that his body will get zombifyed and a fair chance that his soul will get binded too.

So, "Out for Lunch" looks like a clever tactic.

tcrudisi

2010-11-30, 12:05 PM

Because this particular faction is prone to killing and soul-binding people it doesn't like? It does you no good to have the Resurrection Brothers on tap if they can't find your soul to bring you back!

Well, that's fine. That's a perfectly good reason.

Of course, then it completely invalidates strip 737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) where it's implied that he's out because he doesn't want to get too involved in politics.

So either he really doesn't want to get too involved in politics, so he ducked Xykon...

Or he doesn't mind getting involved in politics, but ducked Xykon to avoid getting soul-bound.

If it's the first one, it implies that he's chosen a side and somehow Tiamat and the OotS are working towards similar (or at worst, goals that do not contradict one another).

If it's the second one, it implies that the comic lied (albeit for a very good reason).

There is, of course, a 3rd option: the Oracle chose to get involved with one side (OotS / Tiamat) but really doesn't like politics, so avoids Xykon both because of the soul-bound thing and to avoid further politics. But in that hypothesis, it strongly implies that the OotS goals and Tiamats goals are very similar (compared to the first one where it just implies that the OotS goals and Tiamat's goals do not conflict).

Am I making my logic clear? I did fail to get any sleep last night (darn 30 page research papers being due in 6 hours), so there's a chance my logic is completely faulty or only striking on 2 out of 4 cylinders.

Shale

2010-11-30, 12:19 PM

Souhiro

2010-11-30, 12:34 PM

Yeah, but the main event is that Xykon isn't a politic side at all. He is "Just Another Force of Evil" (JAFE, for short) since politics, nations, diplomatic relations with any country... or the very Gobbotopia don't mind him at all. For him, Hobbos and Gobbos are just disposable minions.
Redcloak is more political, since he really created Gobbotopia and is more concerned with a cause (The Goblin race) that with personal power.

And seriously, if you were the oracle, a potion dealer, or just an alive thing, you don't want to cross your path with Xykon: He is mad and is powerful.
Unless you're Soon Kim, then it would be okay to cross your path with him, and put him in a cross of the path. But alas, very few of us are Epic Paladins!

tcrudisi

2010-11-30, 01:20 PM

But you can't choose a side and not get involved. The Oracle invalidated any claim that he didn't want to get into the conflict when he told the Order where Xykon was headed (and tried to help them even more than that).

I agree. That's why I believe he really does have a vested interest in the outcome -- which implies that the OotS goal is similar (or identical) to Tiamat's.

Yeah, but the main event is that Xykon isn't a politic side at all. He is "Just Another Force of Evil"

Oh no, he's very much a side. He may be singular, but he's one of the 9 major groups/players in the battle for the gates. He wants it because he can use it to control the world. He's one of the 9-11 possible outcomes (with releasing the Snarl possibly being 10 and nobody getting a gate possibly being 11).

Souhiro

2010-12-01, 03:53 AM

Oh no, he's very much a side. He may be singular, but he's one of the 9 major groups/players in the battle for the gates. He wants it because he can use it to control the world. He's one of the 9-11 possible outcomes (with releasing the Snarl possibly being 10 and nobody getting a gate possibly being 11).

Well, I didn't saw in that way.

Where did the outcomes were disucssed, anyway?

tcrudisi

2010-12-01, 09:54 AM

Well, I didn't saw in that way.

Where did the outcomes were disucssed, anyway?

If there are 9 sides to the gates (as Rich has supposedly stated in one of the books), then it makes sense that each side wants it for a specific purpose (ie - one specific outcome). Of course, there's always a chance that they all fail (no one gets the gates - a 10th outcome) or they completely botch it (release Snarl - an 11th outcome).

Bulzeeb

2010-12-01, 10:17 AM

The exact phrase is "rather than get too involved with world politics.". Keep in mind that this is Malak speaking, so his view of "getting involved with world politics" is actually establishing a nation and continuing its interests. So from his perspective, the Oracle could very well help various factions without being part of politics.

Somehow I don't see merely carrying out the job that the Oracle is regularly paid to do as being "too" involved. Somewhat involved? Sure. But all he's really doing is helping a single party of adventurers.

Hironomus

2010-12-02, 03:26 AM

Well, that's fine. That's a perfectly good reason.

Of course, then it completely invalidates strip 737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) where it's implied that he's out because he doesn't want to get too involved in politics.

So either he really doesn't want to get too involved in politics, so he ducked Xykon...

Or he doesn't mind getting involved in politics, but ducked Xykon to avoid getting soul-bound.

If it's the first one, it implies that he's chosen a side and somehow Tiamat and the OotS are working towards similar (or at worst, goals that do not contradict one another).

If it's the second one, it implies that the comic lied (albeit for a very good reason).

There is, of course, a 3rd option: the Oracle chose to get involved with one side (OotS / Tiamat) but really doesn't like politics, so avoids Xykon both because of the soul-bound thing and to avoid further politics. But in that hypothesis, it strongly implies that the OotS goals and Tiamats goals are very similar (compared to the first one where it just implies that the OotS goals and Tiamat's goals do not conflict).

Am I making my logic clear? I did fail to get any sleep last night (darn 30 page research papers being due in 6 hours), so there's a chance my logic is completely faulty or only striking on 2 out of 4 cylinders.

There is also a third possibility. He doesn't want to get involved in politics AND he doesn't want any of what Xykon would do to him.
He is a proffesional oracle so answering the orders question may have just been buisness for him. But Xykon is likely to obliterate him whatever he does. So being elsewhere is just the safest tactic. "Those who don't have swords can still die on them" and all that.

cho_j

2010-12-05, 10:09 PM

Or, he saw himself not being there when Xykon showed up, because that's what actually happened.

Augh, psychic abilities are almost as bad as time travel for messing with your head. I think that comment physically hurt my brain.

blazingshadow

2010-12-05, 11:30 PM

SaintRidley

2010-12-06, 12:04 AM

question, i thought that xykon's phylactery was unscryable because of the cloister effect (making it scryable again after the cloister spell wore off) and the fact that xykon isn't that good at scrying himself. is this a non issue and all phylacteries are unscryable?

edit: oh and i guess this is my hello post

It's perfectly possible to scry on phylacteries in general, but Xykon and Redcloak have layered on every protective spell possible onto the phylactery to ensure it cannot be destroyed or scryed upon (something which would allow enemies to potentially discern their location/plans if done).

Basically, they protected it really well and it's biting them in their asses because it's too protected for them to search for it any other way than by hand.

factotum

2010-12-06, 02:47 AM

Tass

2010-12-06, 03:59 AM

If there are 9 sides to the gates (as Rich has supposedly stated in one of the books), then it makes sense that each side wants it for a specific purpose (ie - one specific outcome). Of course, there's always a chance that they all fail (no one gets the gates - a 10th outcome) or they completely botch it (release Snarl - an 11th outcome).

He does? I've never heard that.

The roaches once made an offhand comment about it, but that is quite different.

Shale

2010-12-06, 07:45 AM

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe he's said that yes, the roaches know what they're talking about.

Souhiro

2010-12-09, 12:09 PM

Note that Cloister doesn't block scrying attempts inside the protected zone, only from outside to inside. Mind you, if I remember the description of the scry spell correctly, it can only be used to scry on a person anyway--directly scrying on an object just isn't possible.

Okay... I've been out.

The Scry spell isn't usable in this case, fact. But there is another ones, like Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) It is a Lvl-8 divination, so it's unlikely that Xykon can use it (He is more a "Me Blast You" Guy, than a "I control the Battlefield" Guy) And RC isn't confirmed to be able to cast Lvl-8. And if all of that fails, there is still WISH and MIRACLE.

But yeah, I think that almost direct divine intervention (And the oracle is an agent of Tiamat) is above all the cheese that two spellcasters can use.

Forum Explorer

2010-12-09, 02:29 PM

It could be that the oracle thinks that helping the OotS doesn't count as politics as they are adventurers who are trying to protect the world. Xykon on the other hand is a leader (of a sort) who is trying to rule the world.

One is much more personal then the other.

IndigoFenix

2010-12-11, 08:56 PM

I'm guessing the Oracle is probably even more scared of the Snarl than anyone else (any of the other mortal characters, at least). Since it's outside of the normal laws of the universe, and more powerful than the gods (from which he derives his power), it's possible that even he can't predict things properly when it's involved. Even if the Oracle doesn't normally take sides, there's a good chance that in this case he just wants the Snarl out of the picture, which would mean opposing Xykon (who wants to use the Gates) and possibly even siding with the Order.

IronWilliam

2010-12-13, 02:58 PM

The Oracle is kind of inconsistant, might be hard to rely on him. His prophecys are often misleading.

blazingshadow

2010-12-14, 02:25 AM

the oracle might just be mourning the death of 1/4 of the black dragon population or just getting rid of evidence that link his implication in the whole issue. he might not even be thinking about whether it is a good idea to help xykon or not

Tvtyrant

2010-12-14, 02:53 AM

Come to think of it, he helped a dragon get 1/4 of the dragon population killed despite knowing they would.... Which means Tiamat is probably quite angry with him.

Question: In traditional D&D Tiamat is Lawful Evil and resides in Baator; there have been references to her being chaotic in OoTS land. Is she in fact chaotic?

The MunchKING

2010-12-14, 02:55 AM

The Oracle is kind of inconsistant, might be hard to rely on him. His prophecys are often misleading.

Not as much so as Eugine's.

All his propechies were pretty starightforward, and not all that misleading.

Some of the prophecies wouldn't make sense until they came true, ut that was more the nature of the question asked.

IronWilliam

2010-12-14, 08:05 PM

Don't forget, the epic level cloister spell stays in effect for six months.

Kish

2010-12-14, 08:44 PM

there have been references to her being chaotic in OoTS land.
Where?

Her alignment has never been stated, beyond that she's Something Evil.

Blanth

2010-12-14, 10:29 PM

Perhaps the Oracle stepped out for some Goblin' Dan's BBQ Hydra?

Juggling Goth

2010-12-15, 02:22 AM

I agree that the Oracle is avoiding Xykon because of a combination of not wanting the world destroyed and "dude is fricking scary".

Regarding his alignment/position on the villains' poster, I figure the Oracle just hates everybody more or less equally. (This doesn't affect whether he'll help them to further his goals.) He snarks everybody and he doesn't seem to actually want visitors ("don't come back!"). I figure the whole memory charm/getting paid/one question deal is just his way of making the best of the fact people are going to keep bugging him for prophecies, so he might as well make some cash and set some rules.