Druid/ Swordsage

[Hironomus]

Can you use Maneuvers and stances whilst wildshaped? I have a player who is interested in something like this.

[mint]

Yes.
You could even replace druid spellcasting with martial progression without becoming more powerful.

[Hironomus]

Ok, but is this a case of "it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you can't"?
or "what are you a moron? of course you can do that! it's the most natural thing in the world!"

[Psyren]

The flavor synergy between Druids and Desert Wind is pretty spot-on too. (The mental imagery of a Bear using Setting Sun moves is crazy scary as well.)

[AstralFire]

More of the latter than the former, given that there's a PrC in ToB which accounts for shapeshifting.

[Hironomus]

Cool then. And thanks for the help.
Another reason for me to dislike the ToB perhaps :smallamused:
but nevertheless I have no reason to disallow the build.

[Eldariel]

Cool then. And thanks for the help.
Another reason for me to dislike the ToB perhaps :smallamused:
but nevertheless I have no reason to disallow the build.

Don't worry; if he's multiclassing he's saving you the terror that is straight Druid :smallwink:

[Hironomus]

Don't worry; if he's multiclassing he's saving you the terror that is straight Druid :smallwink:

Yeah i thought of that :smalltongue:
I look forward to seeing how it turns out anyway.

[thubby]

The flavor synergy between Druids and Desert Wind is pretty spot-on too. (The mental imagery of a Bear using Setting Sun moves is crazy scary as well.)

i would find the idea of a direbear using shadow hand shenanigans pretty horrendous.
actually, diamond mind would probably be one of the nastier things to do. concentration is a class skill on druids :smalleek:

[Eldariel]

i would find the idea of a direbear using shadow hand shenanigans pretty horrendous.
actually, diamond mind would probably be one of the nastier things to do. concentration is a class skill on druids :smalleek:

Considering Tiger Claw is pretty much feral "beast-like" fighting, it kinda works pretty perfectly with Wildshape too. But yeah, Diamond Mind would be fairly nasty; not only is Concentration a class skill but Wildshape ensures you have rather impressive Constitution.

[AstralFire]

Desert Wind is a Falcon.
Setting Sun is a Monkey.
Tiger's Claw is a do you really have to ask.
Stone Dragon is a Komodo Dragon.
White Raven is a do you really have to ask.
Diamond Mind is a Wolf.
Devoted Spirit is a Badger.
Shadow Hand is a Fox.
Iron Heart is a Bear.

IMO.

[Eldariel]

Iron Heart = Lion IMHO. Lionheart, etc.

[AstralFire]

Iron Heart = Lion IMHO. Lionheart, etc.

But then where is Bear? We need a Martial Arts Bear.

If we're not careful Bear will be driving.

[Psyren]

Stone Dragon is a Tortoise imo:

Dragon = reptile
Stone = shell

Why is Devoted Spirit a badger?

[AstralFire]

Stone Dragon is a Tortoise imo:

Dragon = reptile
Stone = shell

Why is Devoted Spirit a badger?

I suppose because I read too much Redwall as a little AstralEmber.

[Eldariel]

But then where is Bear? We need a Martial Arts Bear.

If we're not careful Bear will be driving.

Devoted Spirit or Stone Dragon feels most Bearish IMHO.

[S4V4X4NDER]

Iron Heart should be for the bears.

Like the armored bears from Northern Lights.

[Hironomus]

where is the panda??
but seriously, Animals using martial arts? ridiculous. Simple as that to me. maybe some maneuvers or stances are pheasible but basically it seems silly and impossible to me. yes even tiger claw.
Clearly thats just me though :smallyuk:

[Sir Swindle89]

where is the panda??
but seriously, Animals using martial arts? ridiculous. Simple as that to me. maybe some maneuvers or stances are pheasible but basically it seems silly and impossible to me. yes even tiger claw.
Clearly thats just me though :smallyuk:

I believe Tiger Claw actually has Claw listed as one of it's favored weapons though

[Hironomus]

I believe Tiger Claw actually has Claw listed as one of it's favored weapons though

If there is one that seems even slightly possible it is that one. but it is still a martial art. so blah :smallmad:

[HunterOfJello]

The Tiger Blooded feat was designed for using Rage, Shifting or Wild Shape at the same time as maneuvers. Therefore, yes you can use them while in wild shape.

[Hironomus]

Yup I'll roll with it. I still think its B&%*dy stupid though :smalltongue:
Maybe the (implied) sight of a dire lion delivering a roundhouse kick to the face of an unwitting ogre mages face will change my mind.

[sonofzeal]

Yup I'll roll with it. I still think its B&%*dy stupid though :smalltongue:
Maybe the (implied) sight of a dire lion delivering a roundhouse kick to the face of an unwitting ogre mages face will change my mind.
A Druid/Rogue can use Sneak Attack as a dire bear, in Core. And you can get some odd shenanigans out of a Druid/Monk, too. I don't think ToB raises the level of ludicrousness at all.

[mint]

Where are all the shadow hand pandas?

If what he really wants to do is play a druid with manoeuvres instead of spells you might consider letting him. You could agree on school access so that it wont don't demolish your sense of the world. Make happy fun adventure.
The substitution is simple and kind of great.

[AstralFire]

Yup I'll roll with it. I still think its B&%*dy stupid though :smalltongue:
Maybe the (implied) sight of a dire lion delivering a roundhouse kick to the face of an unwitting ogre mages face will change my mind.

But a tiger chanting and making motions to unleash a spell, that's totally kosher.

[Tael]

where is the panda??
but seriously, Animals using martial arts? ridiculous. Simple as that to me. maybe some maneuvers or stances are pheasible but basically it seems silly and impossible to me. yes even tiger claw.
Clearly thats just me though :smallyuk:

Yeah, but it's not an animal using martial arts, it's an animal with a human mind, who has trained for years perfecting his bestial art.

[Psyren]

where is the panda??
but seriously, Animals using martial arts? ridiculous. Simple as that to me. maybe some maneuvers or stances are pheasible but basically it seems silly and impossible to me. yes even tiger claw.
Clearly thats just me though :smallyuk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgg_fukbvU

[Mongoose87]

Yup I'll roll with it. I still think its B&%*dy stupid though :smalltongue:
Maybe the (implied) sight of a dire lion delivering a roundhouse kick to the face of an unwitting ogre mages face will change my mind.

We're talking Druids shaped as animals, so it's not as though they have animal minds.

[Hironomus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgg_fukbvU

I was wondering when someone would link that video. I love it haha!! But it sort of proves my point, kinda. I mean as a bear he is pretty amazing, as a martial artist... well.
Damn Japan. You can turn a sane man mad in no time.:smallamused:

anyway. I am not doubting the druids mental capability to learn martial arts, or remember it in animal form. I am doubting the animals capability to perform it. a wildshaped druid can't pick locks or (naturally) cast spells in animal form and this falls into the similar category of an animal being unable to do something designed for a body that is at least somewhat humanoid. realistically anyway. I am not saying that D&D should be a pargon of realism. merely that this particular fantasy has zero appeal for me.
But I want to be a good DM so if thats what a player wants to do I'll even pretend to like the idea :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

Obviously a tiger body cannot do human martial arts, but I don't think anyone's suggesting they fight exactly the same. The druid has learned to get similar results with different limbs.

[Hironomus]

Obviously a tiger body cannot do human martial arts, but I don't think anyone's suggesting they fight exactly the same. The druid has learned to get similar results with different limbs.

That... strikes me as, not quite what martial arts is I guess. oh well though. I might suggest to the player that his character is a special case who has adapted the schools to be usable in animal form? what do you think?

Edit: Incidently when you said that I pictured one of those kendo lines with all the students practicing their sword chops and then a random tiger at the end of the line mimicing them.

[AstralFire]

That... strikes me as, not quite what martial arts is I guess. oh well though. I might suggest to the player that his character is a special case who has adapted the schools to be usable in animal form? what do you think?

That is exactly what I would think. If a raven can manipulate a divine focus and cause fire to come down from the sky, it's not beyond the pale for a bear to headbutt someone in the family ioun stones.

[Hironomus]

Ok neat.
And what does everyone think about the idea that mint suggested of offering to let him play a variant druid with maneuvers instead of spell casting?

[AstralFire]

Ok neat.
And what does everyone think about the idea that mint suggested of offering to let him play a variant druid with maneuvers instead of spell casting?

It ends up making even more sense conceptually, since his druidic training becomes about harnessing the full feral fury of fulsome, furred, feathered or fiery forms for fighting flair. He will, if he's a good optimizer, possibly become over-the-top in melee damage - but he's not a spellcaster, so. (May wish to use PHB2 Shapeshift variant instead for Wild Shape.)

[thubby]

anyway. I am not doubting the druids mental capability to learn martial arts, or remember it in animal form. I am doubting the animals capability to perform it. a wildshaped druid can't pick locks or (naturally) cast spells in animal form and this falls into the similar category of an animal being unable to do something designed for a body that is at least somewhat humanoid. realistically anyway. I am not saying that D&D should be a pargon of realism. merely that this particular fantasy has zero appeal for me.
But I want to be a good DM so if thats what a player wants to do I'll even pretend to like the idea :smallwink:

as non-humanoids, or just really weird humanoids, can take the class levels and benefit from them, the forms obviously aren't all the same for everyone.

[Coidzor]

White Raven is a do you really have to ask.

...I want a Knight of the Raven initiator whose celestial raven companion is also an initiator now. :smallamused:

[Gettles]

where is the panda??
but seriously, Animals using martial arts? ridiculous. Simple as that to me. maybe some maneuvers or stances are pheasible but basically it seems silly and impossible to me. yes even tiger claw.
Clearly thats just me though :smallyuk:

Whats the problem with animals using martial arts? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpsC-hB8WjI)

[Dralnu]

Wow, this idea is pretty awesome. I'll have to throw try it one time. Druid 5 / Swordsage X? Sounds elegant yet powerful if you're going for a martial character.

If you're worried about the animal form not being able to do martial arts, how about casting shillelagh on your staff and then wildshaping into a monkey? You're practically a humanoid and totally kickass.

[Blackfang108]

Wow, this idea is pretty awesome. I'll have to throw try it one time. Druid 5 / Swordsage X? Sounds elegant yet powerful if you're going for a martial character.

If you're worried about the animal form not being able to do martial arts, how about casting shillelagh on your staff and then wildshaping into a monkey? You're practically a humanoid and totally kickass.

Druid 6. Always have an even number of non-initiatior levels.

[Coidzor]

Druid 6. Always have an even number of non-initiatior levels.

Plus it gives you an additional use of wild shape so you can use it twice in one day.

[sonofzeal]

Really, there's no good level to leave Druid between 3rd and 9th. You're either gaining a new spell level, an awesome new class feature, or both.