How to get massive int?(For a level 40 epic gestalt game)(No wish chese or undead)

[Maho-Tsukai]

In a game I am playing right here on the playground I want to build a character that has an int score hovering around the 125-150 range. While this seems absurd everybody else in the campaign is getting such stats in other attributes, mainly cha(via stacking evolved undead over and over again) and I would like to play the super-int character. The question however is, how to get an int score in such a range. Other stats such as cha and str are easy to buff to those levels but I am finding int a bit more difficult. As far as templates go any template is fare game sans undead since we already have multiple party members who are undead and the GM insisted on some variety. Other then that, feel free to tell me any combination of templates to stack as despite how odd a combination it is as they can be easily refluffed as either experiments and/or the messed up features of an edtitch horror type of being(we are going to be deities, after all...with a low divine rank, but still, deities.)

So, baring spellcasting/wish cheese, do any of you here know how to get an int in the 125-150 range?

Oh, I almost forgot. My starting int will be 29.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The biggest int score I have ever seen in a printed book is a +30 the black ethegaunt (Fiend folio

[Aharon]

Could you perhaps put the fact that you don't want spellcasting/wish cheese in front of the post or in the title?
I read through all of your post with wish-cheese in mind, and than you said you don't want that :smallfrown:

[Dusk Eclipse]

and in any case Wish has a +5 limit on stat increases

[Maho-Tsukai]

That monster race looks interesting, actually. However, their is no info on what ability scores you use when making a PC one of those. It dose not adress whether or not your stats get changed to the stats listed in the books or if you use your normal, PC stats.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually, yes you can, all monsters use the standard array (10's and 11's) unless it specifically says they are using the elite array which IIRC merits a 1 CR increase.

Either way you can extrapolate the ability modifiers by substracting 11 from odd scores, and 10 from even scores. Which leads me to make a correction, Black Ethergaunts "only" have a +20 Int modifier.

[Eloel]

That monster race looks interesting, actually. However, their is no info on what ability scores you use when making a PC one of those. It dose not adress whether or not your stats get changed to the stats listed in the books or if you use your normal, PC stats.

You can play as the race if it has a LA. Its' stat adjustments are (Modifier x 2) (So, +8 Str if it has 18-19 Str) for each ability.

[bannable]

A headband of intelligence +60 would cost you 3600000, or just over 1/4th your WBL.

[ZeroNumerous]

So, baring spellcasting/wish cheese, do any of you here know how to get an int in the 125-150 range?

No spellcasting at all? Barring template cheese(I know of no templates that add INT, but someone else might): You don't.

[Maho-Tsukai]

So exactly how much base int could I get from black ethegaunt alone, not counting special templates? I ask because I do play on adding templates to boost int as well.

As for spellcasting cheese, I already asked on the wish shenanigans, the GM did not give an answer but I got some serious flack from other players saying such a thing is unfair since they basically gave up half of their gestalt for getting 125-150 range cha and I would be getting the same thing "for free" and thus I would assume the DM would bar such things to prevent pissed off players.

[SaintRidley]

When using monsters for player characters, this is how you do the stats.

Take the monster stat block. Subtract 11 from all odd stats and 10 from all even stats. These will be your racial stat modifiers for each stat.

Do your rolling/point buy. Add racial stat modifiers. Voila.



Not sure what the proper LA and such on a black ethergaunt would be, though.

Tome +5, Headband +X, any other cool stuff you can think of.

[Seerow]

No Wish cheese, but is epic spell cheese acceptable? Craft yourself a epic spell that gives something ridiculous like +100 insight bonus to intellect, and call it a day.

[bannable]

So exactly how much base int could I get from black ethegaunt alone, not counting special templates? I ask because I do play on adding templates to boost int as well.

If you're going the ethergaunt route, and get the headband I mentioned earlier, you'll have +80 to int from just racial and enhancement bonuses. You could make yourself Venerable for another +3, and inherent bonuses from wish/books will give you another +5, for a total of 114 117 int.

Edit: You can increase this further with that epic feat that increases your int, if you really want.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The book says their ECL is their class level +20, since they have only RHD and no classes, I read that they are a race with 16 RHF and +4 LA (don't worry they get level 17 or 20 Wizard casting, which I believe is your original idea, because I don't see the point of such a massive Int score if you aren't going to be a wizard.)

[Eloel]

So exactly how much base int could I get from black ethegaunt alone, not counting special templates? I ask because I do play on adding templates to boost int as well.

Black Ethergaunt is +2 Str, +8 Dex, +4 Con, +20 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha, everything listed in Special Attacks/Qualities, and a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat (the (B) tag means bonus feat)

[randomhero00]

Well first of all, wish isn't cheese. It doesn't stack with tomes. You can only gain +5 or +6 in each stat (I forget).

Secondly, just ask your dm. "Look, everyone else is getting insane ability scores, could I please just have a homebrew template that gives me a score relative to theirs?" Or simply ask for a bound artifact that gives you such.

Other than that, there's pun-pun, but you don't go all the way with him. You stop at the stat you want.

[Maho-Tsukai]

As for epic spell cheese, again, see my above post. Other members who spent more or less half their gestalt would to get 125-150 cha would be just as pissed off at epic spell cheese as they would wish cheese. As for the thing above, I would rather not be dependent on items to get such an int score because the other party members have slight more then that BASE, which means once they get their items I will still be lagging behind them quite a bit.

And I already kinda asked about the ability boost thing, and members got pissed due to the "they spent half their gestalt on templates" excuse. However, perhaps giving a homebrew template, with a suitable LA would be allowable, since then I would more or less be spending half of my gestalt as well, for ONE template more or less. However, I am a horrid homebrewer so I would need somebody to give me serious help with making such a template.

[SaintRidley]

You'll be casting spells. At a certain point your actual Int score ceases to really matter.

[Aharon]

@Maho-Tsukai
While Black Ethergaunt is a cool race in such a high level game, you could also get its int by polymorphing any object into it. I don't know wether that's included in your "no spellcasting" clause, I assume with that, you meant "no int-increasing buffs"

Int-increasing Templates from the SRD:
Phrenic adds +2 to int, LA +2
Half-Dragon adds another +2, for LA+3
Half-Celestial adds +2, for LA+4
+6 int for LA+9 - if other templates add it at the same rate, you won't get very high.

@Dusk Eclipse
Yes, but a spell-like wish can create a headband of intellect +150 :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, it will. Most party members will have 125-150 in their casting stat. Thus, to not make the game a cakewalk I am almost positive enemies will be scaled to match their DCs meaning spellcasting with anything lower then that in the casting stat will be rather sucky baring non ability-score based DC boosters such as say the red wizard class...

[Eloel]

Actually, it will. Most party members will have 125-150 in their casting stat. Thus, to not make the game a cakewalk I am almost positive enemies will be scaled to match their DCs meaning spellcasting with anything lower then that in the casting stat will be rather sucky baring non ability-score based DC boosters such as say the red wizard class...

DCs? You're an epic level Wizard - you don't use DCs.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Epic spellcasting is banned from what I know. So DCs do matter and I don't want to be forced to be the buffmage who's DCs lag compared to the rest of the party and thus can only cast buffs/no-save spells effectively.

[SaintRidley]

Use spells that offer no save and no spell resistance.

There are a lot. And they are better than the ones that offer saves.

Even without touching epic spellcasting. Do up improved spell capacity, Incantatrix, and have at the metamagicking your 9th level stuff.

Spam things like Energy Drain, Twinned, Repeated, Maximised, whatever flavour of delicious negative energy you want. The save it has doesn't matter because you'll kill things before then.

[bannable]

As for epic spell cheese, again, see my above post. Other members who spent more or less half their gestalt would to get 125-150 cha would be just as pissed off at epic spell cheese as they would wish cheese. As for the thing above, I would rather not be dependent on items to get such an int score because the other party members have slight more then that BASE, which means once they get their items I will still be lagging behind them quite a bit.

How the hell are they getting that much base Int without epic items/spells?

[Maho-Tsukai]

That's the thing, I can't figure out a way. The other party members are optimizing CHARISMA to be that high, mainly by stacking the evolved undead template a ridiculous number of times. I would do the same, but the DM said no more undead, which leaves me rather starved for options to match them without spellcasting cheese. However, spellcasting cheese pissed off other players so I more or less think the GM won't allow any such things.

As of now, the best option is to see if I can get a homebrew template(s) to get the stat boost(s) I desire but the issue is simply the fact I utterly suck at crunch based home brew and having a template that simply gives nothing but a massive int boost seams...well..yeah.

[Toliudar]

Yup. If it's undead that the DM is objecting to, just homebrew an "evolved aberration" template or something that does what you need it to do, and slap it on until you're happy. If that level of cheese has already proven to be acceptable in your game, then the other players can hardly whine about it.

Although: if your primary concern in getting to that level of int is the DC of your spells, there's more efficient ways to do that with items, feats, etc. Ways that wouldn't make you lose character levels.

[bannable]

Thats the thing, I can't figure out a way. The other party members are opmizing CHARISMA to be that high, mainly by stacking the evolved undead template a ridicilous number of times. I would do the same, but the DM said no more undead, which leaves me rather starved for options to match them without spellcasting cheese. However, spellcasting cheese pissed off other players so I more or less think the GM won't allow any such things.

As of now, the best option is to see if I can get a homebrew template(s) to get the stat boost(s) I desire but the issue is simply the fact I utterly suck at crunch based home brew and having a template that simply gives nothing but a massive int boost seams...well..yeah.

So your DM has no issue with stacked evolved undead templates, but wont allow you to stack non-evolved undead templates to even the field?

Perhaps a large book to the DM's head might help here? It sounds like he wants nothing more than to gimp non-undead characters. But as others pointed out, your casting stat *really* doesn't matter much at epic levels. You can metamagic 9th level spells to instagib entire continents, without a save or SR.

[Maho-Tsukai]

For the item questions, I, again, mentioned it above. Their DCs will be that high at BASE level. Meaning once they add items they will still totally outpace me because I will be reliant on items to achieve their BASE DCs, let alone match them when they are fully equipped. However, the evolved X species idea works, but I would have no idea what spells to add as spell-like abilities...because I suck at homebrew and most likely would overpower it.

As for the evolved templates, the only one that exists is evolved undead, meaning any other evolved templates would have to be HOMEBREWED...and I stated above that I UTTERLY FAIL at homebrew most of the time.

[SaintRidley]

And they'll be stupid for relying on things with DCs while you go to town not caring because you just go "I win" and you win.

[Maho-Tsukai]

No. They will still be better. The game will be scaled to their DCs. I don't want to be stuck casting no save spells only. I want DCs equal to theirs, period. I don't want to be stuck with no save spells only.

So, what I really need is homebrewing help to make that non-undead evolved template because it seems like the only option and sadly I just suck with homebrew.

[bannable]

And they'll be stupid for relying on things with DCs while you go to town not caring because you just go "I win" and you win.

This. Why are you convinced DCs mean *anything* at epic levels? Like I said, you can blow up continents with no save no SR with the blink of an eye.



No. They will still be better. The game will be scaled to their DCs. I don't want to be stuck casting no save spells only. I want DCs equal to theirs, period. I don't want to be stuck with no save spells only.

So, what I really need is homebrewing help to make that non-undead evolved template.

If a spell offers a save, it is HORRIBLE at epic levels. Immunities are too easy to achieve at that point, and if a save is *possible*, it will be *made*. The solution is to fight in a way that does not offer saves or SR, because otherwise you will find your enemy shrugging off everything you throw at it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

PLEASE....I told you why. SCALE **** it scale. Things will be scaled to their level. We will be fighting actual gods...so yeah. I am sorry but I posted this thread looking for help, not people telling me "Be weaker then them, it's won't matter in the end because your still an epic spellcaster."

I am sorry if I seem so harsh but this is seriously frustrating me to no end and right now I feel like strangling somebody to death..

*sighs*

I am sorry for blowing up but I can't take it. I have gotten some great advice, however, and in the end it looks like only homebrew will fix my problem. I just need help with the homebrew and don't know how to get it.

[bannable]

PLEASE....I told you why. SCALE **** it scale. Things will be scaled to their level. We will be fighting actual gods...so yeah. I am sorry but I posted this thread looking for help, not people telling me "Be weaker then them, it't won't matter in the end."

I am sorry if I seem so harsh but this is seriously frustrating me to no end.

Wait, you want to use spells which offer saves against gods? You mean those things which automatically succeed on saves (They never fail on a 1. Your DC is not going to outmatch their saves.)? :smallconfused:

[SaintRidley]

Think about it this way.

Your buddy over there has a DC 200 spell that killsplodes things.

You have a spell that killsplodes things too, but it doesn't have a DC.

What this really means is that his spell has DC 200 and that the monster can pass that and not be killsploded. You, however, have a DC infinity spell, and the monster gets killsploded because you say so and point in its general direction.

Drop the idea of high DCs. Having DCs at all is a road that will lead to failure, since that means it's possible to deal with you.

Let me look up a few of the better spells I happen to have in books on me right now.

[Seerow]

PLEASE....I told you why. SCALE **** it scale. Things will be scaled to their level. We will be fighting actual gods...so yeah. I am sorry but I posted this thread looking for help, not people telling me "Be weaker then them, it's won't matter in the end because your still an epic spellcaster."

I am sorry if I seem so harsh but this is seriously frustrating me to no end.


This is why you avoid the scale completely. The fact that you're missing everyone's point is pretty funny though.


Sticking to no save spells isn't exactly a terrible restriction. Seriously look through spell compendium, you have a lot to choose from.

And now where all your party mates are wasting 40 levels worth of gestalt on templates for stats that are nearly useless, you are using those 40 levels to get actual class features and more epic abilities/feats.

[Magicyop]

Wow, dude, you seriously are festering about this. I told you in the game thread that you could get a score of 400 strength and then use True Genius to get 400 in all of your ability scores.

Seriously? The other posters are quite right. Homebrew yourself a nice template or class. I homebrewed the Ancient Undead for myself to use, it sucks up many of my levels, but it gives me some nice stat bonuses in addition to some fun abilities. Just make, say, a stacking version of Phrenic, perhaps, that is based around being really smart.

That actually would be a cool idea. Maybe Contingency based abilities, forethought, etcetera?

In any case, there was no call to speak so rudely about your fellow players in this thread. I have some high scores, but as far as I know, I'm the only one, and I don't have much variety in what is available for me to do. I'm using multiple self-homebrewed things in my build, just whip up something that would be fun and check it with our DM.

Evolved Undead is the only WotC published template that may be taken over and over to my knowledge, but hey, you could just make a Warhulk like class which is geared towards Int instead of strength. That's why homebrew exists. If the niche isn't out there, make it yourself.

EDIT: If you're really so pissed off about this, and aren't willing to try to put in the effort to homebrew something, I'd be willing to help you out and homebrew up a rough template or class quickly, if you want.

[WarKitty]

If template stacking is allowed, take a look at Elder Serpent from DR313. The template can be applied to any snakelike animal or magical beast, and changes your type to magical beast. +2d6+6, +2 HD, +3 LA. An average of +11 INT for every 5 levels. Not strictly RAW, but it doesn't say you can't do it... (ok maybe it does, ask your DM anyway).

[Maho-Tsukai]

*sighs* I know, I am sorry for being rude towards all of you. I just instantly frustrated that I can't match you all. I am sorry to take it out on you and since I can't homebrew(I suck at it, period, end of story.)I may as well do what I did before and bow out....most likely that would be the best option since I have already caused WAY to much friction and at this rate the rest of the players may end up hateing me for the way I have acted anyway...which is understandable, since I know I have been a {Scrubbed} about this.

But if somebody would lend me a hand in homebrewing I may change my mind.

[Magicyop]

If template stacking is allowed, take a look at Elder Serpent from DR313. The template can be applied to any snakelike animal or magical beast, and changes your type to magical beast. +2d6+6, +2 HD, +3 LA. An average of +11 INT for every 5 levels.

Template Stacking isn't allowed. Evolved Undead from Libris Mortis specifically says that you can take it any number of times. Most templates do not. (You can't be a vampire-vampire-vampire-vampire-vampire wizard). I haven't seen this Elder Serpent template, but if you can't normally take it more than once, there's no houserule in this campaign that will allow you to.



*sighs* I know, I am sorry for being rude towards all of you. I just instantly frustrated that I can't match you all. I am sorry to take it out on you and since I can't homebrew(I suck at it, period, end of story.)I may as well do what I did before and bow out....most likely that would be the best option since I have already caused WAY to much friction and at this rate the rest of the players may end up hateing me for the way I have acted anyway...which is understandable, since I know I have been a {Scrubbed the original, scrub the quote} about this.


Dude, chill, it's not that big a deal. If you're really worried about this, I'll homebrew something for you, like I said before. Does an Intelligence based version of Warhulk sound okay? I can't promise it will be ultra high quality, but it'll be enough that you could use it and have some fun with it.

[WarKitty]

Honestly, at this point, there's no way to get in there without houseruling. The snake template would at least provide a cool base to work with.

[randomhero00]

PLEASE....I told you why. SCALE **** it scale. Things will be scaled to their level. We will be fighting actual gods...so yeah. I am sorry but I posted this thread looking for help, not people telling me "Be weaker then them, it's won't matter in the end because your still an epic spellcaster."

I am sorry if I seem so harsh but this is seriously frustrating me to no end and right now I feel like strangling somebody to death..

*sighs*

I am sorry for blowing up but I can't take it. I have gotten some great advice, however, and in the end it looks like only homebrew will fix my problem. I just need help with the homebrew and don't know how to get it.

Um, I already offered this. Look up pun pun. Play him, but stop at the appropriate stats you want. Its cheese, but its not homebrew. And your other players are already using cheese. So I'm not even sure it counts as cheese anymore.

The other thing is using, what's it called? Tainted caster or some such. You won't have an insane int but you will have unbeatable DCs.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah. Like I said, unless I get somebody to help me homebrew I most likely will just not play in this game anymore...I think I caused enough trouble as is anyway and highly doubt that with the way I have acted over this that I will even get excepted, and rightfully so. I would not except myself into this game if I where a senseable DM so rather then get kicked out at the door for being a {Scrubbed} I may as well just do the respectful thing: bow out entirely and save myself the stress.

[Magicyop]

Um, I already offered this. Look up pun pun. Play him, but stop at the appropriate stats you want. Its cheese, but its not homebrew. And your other players are already using cheese. So I'm not even sure it counts as cheese anymore.

The other thing is using, what's it called? Tainted caster or some such. You won't have an insane int but you will have unbeatable DCs.

It does. Using Pun-Pun is always cheese. Taking Evolved Undead a bunch of times is not even all that cheesy, it's minmaxing for sure, but it says you can take it a bunch of times. No gimmicks, no complicated schemes, nothing like that.

Never, ever, ever, encourage someone to play Pun-Pun in an actual campaign.



Yeah. Like I said, unless I get somebody to help me homebrew I most likely will just not play in this game anymore...I think I caused enough trouble as is anyway and highly doubt that with the way I have acted over this that I will even get excepted, and rightfully so. I would not except myself into this game if I where the DM so rather then get kicked out at the door for being a {Scrubbed the original, scrub the quote} I may as well just bow out entirely.

Again? Chill! It's all good! I'll homebrew something for you!

[SaintRidley]

Um, I already offered this. Look up pun pun. Play him, but stop at the appropriate stats you want. Its cheese, but its not homebrew. And your other players are already using cheese. So I'm not even sure it counts as cheese anymore.

The other thing is using, what's it called? Tainted caster or some such. You won't have an insane int but you will have unbeatable DCs.

Tainted scholar, Heroes of Horror.

Provided you want to have DCs, of course. I mean, if you're fighting gods you absolutely don't anyway.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but I have a BIG thing for Necromancy and evil spells. Most non-DC spells are hardly evil/dark in flavor. And there is more to this then just DCs. I also want the high score for Leadership purposes, as well as any other ability score based power and skills since I plan on picking up true genius as my epic destiny.

[Seerow]

Again? Chill! It's all good! I'll homebrew something for you!

At this point I'd just let him bow out if I were you. Seriously his incessant whining in this topic alone, even after you offered to help him multiple times indicates to me he'd be someone I wouldn't want to play with.

But I guess that's your call.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah. I know what you mean....I thank you for all the help you gave me but at this rate I don't think I deserve it. I know I have complained too much about this and frankly I don't want to upset anybody else more then I already have. Like I said, even if I did get homebrew help I highly doubt the DM would want me in after all this crap I pulled so bowing out is, at the least, the respectful option and even if I don't bow out chances are my actions alone will be enough to not include me in the game(and rightfully so) so why spend time building for something that I know I have already kicked myself out of through my own dumb, immature actions?

[randomhero00]

It does. Using Pun-Pun is always cheese. Taking Evolved Undead a bunch of times is not even all that cheesy, it's minmaxing for sure, but it says you can take it a bunch of times. No gimmicks, no complicated schemes, nothing like that.

Never, ever, ever, encourage someone to play Pun-Pun in an actual campaign.



I didn't tell him to play full pun pun. Just pun pun up his int to what he wants and then stop. So really its not pun pun. It would be exactly fair compared to the other players who have the same scores.

[candycorn]

You could always get Irresistable Spell added in. With that, spell DC's aren't as important, and, with a bit of good feat selection, you could apply it to any spell you really want to use.

(Irresistable Spell basically is a metamagic feat that is more or less: +4 spell levels. Targets of this spell fail their saving throws.)

[Magicyop]

I didn't tell him to play full pun pun. Just pun pun up his int to what he wants and then stop. So really its not pun pun. It would be exactly fair compared to the other players who have the same scores.

No it wouldn't! I don't understand how you think that is fair! That's like saying that if one of your party members bought themselves a Belt of Strength +12, it is exactly fair to use Pun-Pun to give yourself a free +12 bonus to Strength. It doesn't make any sense! Just because your party member has some ability, that doesn't make it fair to cheat to gain that ability.

Yes, Pun-Pun is cheating, no matter how much or how little you do it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Correct. Pun-Pun is just pure insanity....besides, like I said. I honestly don't think I deserve to be in the game let alone get build help. Mainly because after all this I highly doubt anybody in that game wants to play with me. I made a fool of myself over all of this so why should I even stay in the game?

[randomhero00]

No it wouldn't! I don't understand how you think that is fair! That's like saying that if one of your party members bought themselves a Belt of Strength +12, it is exactly fair to use Pun-Pun to give yourself a free +12 bonus to Strength. It doesn't make any sense! Just because your party member has some ability, that doesn't make it fair to cheat to gain that ability.

Yes, Pun-Pun is cheating, no matter how much or how little you do it.

Um, his party mates have ability scores past gods, in the 150s...how you don't see that as cheesing I have no idea. When it gets that big of a difference its only fair that he can get an ability score that high too. They used broken templates. He uses broken race/spells. How is that really different?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Not really. That was partly an exauration that came out of my own foolishness and frustration. In defense of the players in that game, only ONE party member has a 150 score. One other member has 125. The rest of us I am not sure about but one flat out stated they will have no score over 60 without buffs.

[randomhero00]

Correct. Pun-Pun is just pure insanity....besides, like I said. I honestly don't think I deserve to be in the game let alone get build help. Mainly because after all this I highly doubt anybody in that game wants to play with me. I made a fool of myself over all of this so why should I even stay in the game?

Oh stop being so down on yourself. It was your group that created the situation not you. Its understandable you got frustrated and upset. We're all human (most of us :smallbiggrin:) Just don't worry about it. Play if they'll let you. That's my advice, and use pun pun trick in a limited way (which really isn't pun pun, just his trick.)

[Magicyop]

Um, his party mates have ability scores past gods, in the 150s...how you don't see that as cheesing I have no idea. When it gets that big of a difference its only fair that he can get an ability score that high too. They used broken templates. He uses broken race/spells. How is that really different?

Past gods? Dude. We ARE Gods! And I'm in his party. Listen, Pun-Pun is an insane stratagem that exploits multiple flaws in the rules, and depends on loopholes which are implied but never actually stated. It gives no cost to the user, and gives them any level of power they want.

Evolved Undead is simply one of those templates you can take any number of times. I took it 20 times. I lose out on 20 levels of class features, 20 HD, BaB, saves, etcetera. It's definitely minmaxing. But cheesing is when you exploit things in ways they weren't meant to be exploited.

Like Pun-Pun.

And stop freaking trying to convince someone to use Pun-Pun.

Maho, I'm not averse to playing with you, everyone gets frustrated from time to time. But if you listen to this madman who is telling you to use Pun-Pun, I will lose all respect for you.

[randomhero00]

Not really. That was partly an exauration stated out of rage. In reality, only ONE party member has a 150 score. One other member has 125. The rest of us I am not sure about but they may not have such scores either.

Same difference. Its not fair they have such insane abilities scores. You've got to be on at least somewhat equal footing. That's like saying, you George are starting at level one, you Frank are starting as a deity rank 7, have fun.

[Maho-Tsukai]

They did not. I created it myself. Because 2 members had scores over 120, with only ONE around 150 and the other only around 125 I overacted. I acted like a idiot and a total {Scrubbed} over it. It's not their fault, it's mine. There is no need to defend me when I was the one in the wrong. So frankly I don't deserve to be defended or helped. I dug my own grave.

[randomhero00]

Past gods? Dude. We ARE Gods! And I'm in his party. Listen, Pun-Pun is an insane stratagem that exploits multiple flaws in the rules, and depends on loopholes which are implied but never actually stated. It gives no cost to the user, and gives them any level of power they want.

Evolved Undead is simply one of those templates you can take any number of times. I took it 20 times. I lose out on 20 levels of class features, 20 HD, BaB, saves, etcetera. It's definitely minmaxing. But cheesing is when you exploit things in ways they weren't meant to be exploited.

Like Pun-Pun.

Except its not really pun pun if you stop at reasonable levels. What if I used the pun pun trick to give me a +1 to str? Is that still pun pun? Um no its not.

[Magicyop]

Except its not really pun pun if you stop at reasonable levels. What if I used the pun pun trick to give me a +1 to str? Is that still pun pun? Um no its not.

Yes it is! It's STILL PUN PUN! It's still exploiting the rules, even if you only gain a small bonus. Trying to pretend it's different than that doesn't work.

[randomhero00]

Yes it is! It's STILL PUN PUN! It's still exploiting the rules, even if you only gain a small bonus. Trying to pretend it's different than that doesn't work.

Ok so what's the difference if my DM wanted to give my +1 wisdom for studying several years in a temple? I guess that's cheating and exploiting too. Its not RAW, must be an exploit. /sarcasm

[Maho-Tsukai]

Indeed. Pun-Pun is Pun-Pun, end of story. Your perception of this is all screwed up because you listened to me without actually hearing the opinions of others in that game. Going on only what I have said is like hearing the story of criminal from his perspective without hearing the victim's side.

Just as I have no right to do what I did, you have no right to characterize the players of that game in the way you have without first hearing their side of this whole thing.

[Magicyop]

Ok so what's the difference if my DM wanted to give my +1 wisdom for studying several years in a temple? I guess that's cheating and exploiting too. Its not RAW, must be an exploit. /sarcasm

I don't understand why you're trying to be so insulting with your non-logic.

No, that's not cheating and exploiting too, that's your DM deciding to give you a flavorful bonus for background.

Homebrew is different than exploits, man. Houserules are not exploits. The problem with Pun-Pun is that it grants the player a bonus for no reason other than they wanted more power, and it's not the DM's decision to give them that bonus.

So, DM giving you +1 wisdom for studying? Not exploit.

If I wrote in my character background that I had studied and decided that because I'm just that awesome, I will bump my wisdom up by 1 without asking the DM? That's an exploit.

[randomhero00]

I don't understand why you're trying to be so insulting with your non-logic.

No, that's not cheating and exploiting too, that's your DM deciding to give you a flavorful bonus for background.

Homebrew is different than exploits, man. Houserules are not exploits. The problem with Pun-Pun is that it grants the player a bonus for no reason other than they wanted more power, and it's not the DM's decision to give them that bonus.

So, DM giving you +1 wisdom for studying? Not exploit.

If I wrote in my character background that I had studied and decided that because I'm just that awesome, I will bump my wisdom up by 1 without asking the DM? That's an exploit.
Well if he was using the pun pun trick I assume that would be at the permission of his DM...hence my confusion on the difference between the two. Its a game man. We can bend the rules however we want, the objective is to have fun for all.

[Galileo]

Except its not really pun pun if you stop at reasonable levels. What if I used the pun pun trick to give me a +1 to str? Is that still pun pun? Um no its not.

It really, really is. Pun Pun's main trick is the ability to increase its scores as much as it pleases, via an extremely cheesy method. Claiming that it's not cheese because you're only using it a little bit is ridiculous. Sure, compared to other cheese it's not powerful, but that's only if you stop. And please don't try and compare it to being granted something extra for roleplaying. It is completely different, and you know it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes. Even I would not stoop to pun-pun...even while I was all upset over this...hence this thread.

As for homebrew, my reason for not wanting to use it is that I can't homebrew for crap and due to many, many, many threads I have made on other forums asking for help with tasks have always been totally ignored, so I have a rather negative attitude towards asking people for anything on forums now a days because of being ignored so many times.

[randomhero00]

It really, really is. Pun Pun's main trick is the ability to increase its scores as much as it pleases, via an extremely cheesy method. Claiming that it's not cheese because you're only using it a little bit is ridiculous. Sure, compared to other cheese it's not powerful, but that's only if you stop. And please don't try and compare it to being granted something extra for roleplaying. It is completely different, and you know it.

I honestly don't see the difference. Either way the DM is granting you something as he has final say over everything.

[Magicyop]

Well if he was using the pun pun trick I assume that would be at the permission of his DM...hence my confusion on the difference between the two. Its a game man. We can bend the rules however we want, the objective is to have fun for all.

Correction, the DM can bend the rules however he/she wants, that's the job of the DM. If the DM actually said to the players "You know what? Screw the rules. This isn't D&D 3.5, this is freeform, do whatever you want." Then, yes, fine, okay, do whatever you want! But the players should listen to the rules set down by the system or by the DM.

Furthermore, the Pun-Pun trick is easily disguised. The whole idea here is, you aren't asking him to talk to our DM and figure out some homebrew, you're asking him to try and slip something past the radar.

"Requests: Can I play a Kobold?
Master of Many Forms from Complete Divine?

Backstory: Once, I discovered a Sarrukh and transformed into one, altering the chemistry of my familiar and myself in terrible ways."

There you go. You're omnipotent, and a DM who hasn't heard about the trick didn't realize they gave you permission to do that.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, not to mention pun-pun is just CHEAP...period. Even the evolved undead stacking is less cheesy then that. Heck, WISH SLA abuse is less cheesy then pun-pun.

Also, do any of you honestly feel I even deserve to be in this anymore? Is there even a point to this? I personally feel I don't deserve to be in the game at all let alone get homebrew help...so why is this thread even going on...I don't understand why people even want to help me after I have been a total jack*** about this.

[Magicyop]

Yes, not to mention pun-pun is just CHEAP...period. Even the evolved undead stacking is less cheesy then that. Heck, WISH SLA abuse is less cheesy then pun-pun.

Also, do any of you honestly feel I even deserve to be in this anymore? Is there even a point to this? I personally feel I don't deserve to be in the game at all let alone get homebrew help...so why is this thread even going on?

I told you, you don't need to beat yourself up that badly. You got a little bit upset. Chill and rework your build, and I'll homebrew something if you want.

[randomhero00]

Correction, the DM can bend the rules however he/she wants, that's the job of the DM. If the DM actually said to the players "You know what? Screw the rules. This isn't D&D 3.5, this is freeform, do whatever you want." Then, yes, fine, okay, do whatever you want! But the players should listen to the rules set down by the system or by the DM.

Furthermore, the Pun-Pun trick is easily disguised. The whole idea here is, you aren't asking him to talk to our DM and figure out some homebrew, you're asking him to try and slip something past the radar.

"Requests: Can I play a Kobold?
Master of Many Forms from Complete Divine?

Backstory: Once, I discovered a Sarrukh and transformed into one, altering the chemistry of my familiar and myself in terrible ways."

There you go. You're omnipotent, and a DM who hasn't heard about the trick didn't realize they gave you permission to do that.

I guess we have different DMs. I/we run everything past our DM first and let him know what we intend.

PS Maho-Tsukai- please stop saying there is such a thing as wish abuse. its an inherent bonus that doesn't stack with tomes and won't go above +5. It doesn't matter if its an SLA, Su, or even an Ex. Inherent bonuses do not stack past 5.

[Magicyop]

I guess we have different DMs. I/we run everything past our DM first and let him know what we intend.

PS Maho-Tsukai- please stop saying there is such a thing as wish abuse. its an inherent bonus that doesn't stack with tomes and won't go above +5. It doesn't matter if its an SLA, Su, or even an Ex. Inherent bonuses do not stack past 5.

Wish Abuse goes beyond inherent bonus. Check the description again. You can create a magic item of any value. "I use Wish to summon a Belt of +infinity strength."

[Maho-Tsukai]

Provided the DM and the rest of the players don't hate me yes, I would like some homebrew help. However, after what I did It may not be necessary since I doubt the others even want me to be a part of this game after how I acted. I believe I have dug my own grave over this but if you honestly believe I won't be denied simply due to the way I have acted over this then I would greatly appreciate the help.

[Galileo]

I guess we have different DMs. I/we run everything past our DM first and let him know what we intend.

PS Maho-Tsukai- please stop saying there is such a thing as wish abuse. its an inherent bonus that doesn't stack with tomes and won't go above +5. It doesn't matter if its an SLA, Su, or even an Ex. Inherent bonuses do not stack past 5.

Yeah, everyone runs their character past the DM before playing. The difference is, if someone honestly wanted to use Pun Pun, they'd be well aware that it is dishonest to use it in a game where noone else has access to that kind of power and likely try and disguise it.

[randomhero00]

Wish Abuse goes beyond inherent bonus. Check the description again. You can create a magic item of any value. "I use Wish to summon a Belt of +infinity strength."

You can't go past 25,000gp. If you do bad things will happen. You also can't duplicate anything below 8th level spells. Something with an +infinity stat would need a higher level to create, therefor its void.

Gods are also aware of such wishes. So say you do get it. Well Hello Mr. Overdeity! Did you want your belt back?!

[Seerow]

You can't go past 25,000gp. If you do bad things will happen. You also can't duplicate anything below 8th level spells. Something with an +infinity stat would need a higher level to create, therefor its void.

Gods are also aware of such wishes. So say you do get it. Well Hello Mr. Overdeity! Did you want your belt back?!

iirc if a item goes past that gp value, it just increases the experience cost of creating it. Luckily however, SLA Wish has no experience cost, so whatever item you can think of is free.

[The Glyphstone]

You can't go past 25,000gp. If you do bad things will happen. You also can't duplicate anything below 8th level spells. Something with an +infinity stat would need a higher level to create, therefor its void.

Gods are also aware of such wishes. So say you do get it. Well Hello Mr. Overdeity! Did you want your belt back?!

We're talking Wish Cheese here, which includes the massively abusive technicality that there is no limit on the cost for magic items. The 25.000 GP limit specifically applies to nonmagical items. You can't duplicate any spell above 8th level - remember that spell level and caster level are different things, and Wish has no limitations on what caster level it can imitate.

EDIT: Ninja'ed.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Like I said, I most likely kicked myself out of the game. So if anybody has a reason that I won't be kicked out then I am all ears but as it stands I doubt the other players want to play with me after I acted whined about not being able to achieve what they did and then getting all upset.

[randomhero00]

We're talking Wish Cheese here, which includes the massively abusive technicality that there is no limit on the cost for magic items. The 25.000 GP limit specifically applies to nonmagical items. You can't duplicate any spell above 8th level - remember that spell level and caster level are different things, and Wish has no limitations on what caster level it can imitate.

EDIT: Ninja'ed.

Still, it explicitly states that wishing anything above that progressively bad things will happen. Like you'll be instantly destroyed, no res. You might get to have the item for a nano second before it dissapears.

"Even wish, however, has its limits. "
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "

Bad, bad things happen when you over step your bounds and wish for something above your pay grade. There's only wish cheese if the DM is putting in wish cheese.

If you wished for a belt of strength +100, you'd be lucky to get a belt of strength +6.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That, however, is if you do the wishing yourself. The REAL trick to wish cheese is planar binding something with a wish SLA and making it do the wishing for you. That way you take none of the negative effects and get exactly what you want for free....that is the cheese I speak of.

[Magicyop]

Like I said, I most likely kicked myself out of the game. So if anybody has a reason that I won't be kicked out then I am all ears but as it stands I doubt the other players want to play with me after I acted whined about not being able to achieve what they did and then getting all upset.

Again, seriously, it's not that bad. Nobody's going to kick you out. Number one, I think that I'm the only one from the game who noticed this thread (so far) and number two, nothing you've done is really all that bad.


Still, it explicitly states that wishing anything above that progressively bad things will happen. Like you'll be instantly destroyed, no res. You might get to have the item for a nano second before it dissapears.

"Even wish, however, has its limits. "
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) "

Bad, bad things happen when you over step your bounds and wish for something above your pay grade. There's only wish cheese if the DM is putting in wish cheese.

If you wished for a belt of strength +100, you'd be lucky to get a belt of strength +6.

Yes, we all have read the description. But the literal interpretation is greater effects than these, where one of these effects is, "Get a magic item of any value."

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes...also, see my previous post. If your really worried about the negative effects of wishing for such a powerful item just planar bind something with wish as an SLA. Order it to use that wish SLA to wish for whatever uber items you want and give said items to you. You get the item but the outsider did the wishing. Thus, by RAW, it would take the negative effects, not you, since it is the one who did the wishing...you where just telling it what to wish for...

As for the god thing, not much you can do about that. However, whether or not the gods come down and punish you for your abuse is a decision of the DM and the DM can decide anything he wants....so if he dose not want wish abuse, he can do anything he wants to stop it. That however dose not change the fact that, by RAW, such do abuses exist.(Especially with Planar Binding).

[Xerit]

{Scrubbed}

On topic:

The answer has been given multiple times already, homebrew a solution. In this case its probably as easy as changing the name on the template already in use. "I'm not an undead whatever whatever, i'm a abberation whatever whatever"

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, your partly wrong. I was not putting on a show with the intent to draw pity. I actually WAS feeling that upset....though I understand how it could seem like I was manipulating people...If you still think I was trying to manipulate others fine be me because I know that I was not. If I know I that I was actually feeling upset over this and not just trying to sway people then that's all that really matters, you can call me manipulative all you want. Also, do you honestly think a good manipulator would use such a blatant trick as the old fashion "woe is me?" I am smart enough to know obvious tactics are obvious and if I REALLY wanted to manipulate somebody then I would do it in a far more subtle manner....I should know, I have manipulated a lot of people and own a lot of my "success" to knowing how to get others to act in a way that benefits me.


As for homebrew, I posted numerous times that I suck at it and need LOTS of help with it. If I must I will dig up some of my horrid homebrew from this very forum to prove this. However, with sufficient help, homebrew is a viable solution, it's just not one I can use on my own.

[Xerit]

Current template is called Evolved Undead.

Change to : Evolved Aberration

Go through every line of the template description, and change each Undead to Aberration instead.

Remove any traits moved over from the typical undead template, add in traits from the typical aberration template.

You are now an Evolved Aberration with eleventy-billion int. Enjoy your game.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but it also comes with SLAs. All of those SLAs have a undead/necromantic flavor. Thus, while that's fine crunch wise, thematically and fluff wise the party and DM would want me to change those SLAs to less "Undead/necromantic" ones....which is where I need help. I suppose I could change the fluff to be necromantic but not undead-specific, such as say being the result of a spellcasting infusing himself with negative energy to boost his own intellect and spellcasting power which in turn gives him some necromantic abilities in the process.

[Xerit]

See, you can do it. Its a game about making stuff up. Especially when you are homebrewing. Make stuff up.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but there is a difference between fluff and crunch. I can do fluff fine enough, it's crunch that kills me. I have plenty of IDEAS for classes and such, but when I sit down to make the actual crunch it either ends up overpowered or underpowered. I can never make anything balanced without lots of help. Just look at the little homebrew I have posted up to see what I mean. I also have attempted to make a base class, though I felt it was too crappy to post up here. Fluff wise I have it all figured out. It's an evil arcane spellcaster who acts as a dark foil to the druid. While the druid protects the natural world this guy seeks to warp, twist and pollute it with the taint and negative energy...The class had a great concept and flavorfull spell list but when it came down to non spell-list mechanics it just fell flat on it's face and as it stands right now I believe the class is overpowered.

As for hombrew as far as fluff goes? I have created my own pantheon of gods, multiple campaign settings and a massive timeline for each of them, no less...So it's not the fluff that gives me issues with homebrew, it's actually making something that, crunch wise, is balanced.

[Last Laugh]

Maho, I think this thread is really interesting. I am a bit curious about what you are planning to have for your build?

[Maho-Tsukai]

That is still up in the air and depends on how much Int I can get. But I know for a fact I will be squezzing at least 40 levels of wizard casting out of it. I have more or less scraped my original build and am going for something far more caster-y. I do plan on using factotum a bit and picking up true genius to make everything based off my super-int. I am also planing on using some frank and K, mainly the soul merchant class, among others.

[Mystic Muse]

Maho, it sounds like you might have been going a little overboard with the intelligence amount (I don't know the other player's stats) but you're needlessly beating yourself up about it.

I don't think you've really done anything, at least that you've told us, that makes it so that you don't deserve to be in the game.

[SaintRidley]

Which you really ought to do past level 5 through prestige classes. And then there's the other side of the gestalt, which you can do all sorts of things with including some template stacking.

Look for some of the more pro-Abberation spells in Lords of Madness. Swap those in for spells of the same level in the Evolved Undead list.

Boom, spell-likes fixed.

[Maho-Tsukai]

The stat dose not HAVE to be int. Charisma would work just as well on this character. It's not the fact that it MUST be int, but rather it MUST be a mental stat. I don't care which mental stat but it must be either int or cha for RP purposes. I would PREFER int since everybody else is going the cha route but if int is just too hard to boost then cha would work just as fine. I just don't want to have it be physical stat or wisdom based for RP purposes is all....RP preference is another major driving factor for this. I could easily buff strength to crazy levels, but I don't like playing the hulking idiot type of character and prefer the evil mastermind/evil overlord type villain who can actually scheme, plot and cast spells instead of having plans that consist purely of "hit it until it dies." So RP has a major influence on my choice of stat to boost, though I could get away with boosting cha as appose to int but due to two party members already having a major focus on cha I wanted to switch things up and be the group's int based character....At this rate I MAY consider wis as a focus stat as well, but I doubt that it's any easier to buff to those levels then int..

As for the spell fix, that may work.....I will have to go scoure my books.

[The Glyphstone]

You could be an Illumian with the sigil that lets you use Strength for bonus spells/save DCs, and stack Strength. :)

[Maho-Tsukai]

Casting spells dose not equal=smart. If your using strength to cast spells you may be able to cast them but chances are your not smart enough to use them in the manner I like my characters to do. An idiot with spells is still an idiot. Even though he can cast spells his plans are still no better. "Hit it until it dies" just becomes "hit it with spells until it dies." You can't pull off convoluted, complex, century spanning, Nicol Bolas-style chessmaster plots and xantos gambits with a character that say has 12 int and RP wise such plans are the kind of thing I am looking for my character to weave. A strength based caster who dose not have a high int is basically Goku: Great power both superpower-wise and physically, can curb stomp anybody on a pure power level vs. power level basis but put him in a game of xantos speed chess and he will fail utterly.

For a less anime-centric example, a high int caster would use cunning and creative strategies to win a game of chess. A strength based caster with low int would win that same game of chess by lighting the chessboard on fire, disintegrating all of the pieces and letting out an evil laugh....wasting valuble spell slots in the process...Hardly a Nicol Bolas style chessmster type..

[Myth]

If your DM actually bothered to read the rules on Evolved Undead in Libris Mortis he would see that an Undead thing has a chance to go "evolved" only once every 100 years, and it has to be a really powerful undead thing. stacking the template 50 times means a 5000 year old undead. Multiple instances of them to be precise by going from your OP.

If he is handwaving this or DM fiating the setting to accept them he better not cry if you try using Epic Spellcasting as intended.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That's the point. This undead character, fluff-wise, is actually that old. Hence the "Ancient Undead" template homebrew. As for the other guy, I don't know his build or if he even uses evolved undead at all. I just know he somehow has 150 cha. I have not seen his sheet.

[Myth]

Well if your DM is homebrewing a template that grants 150 Cha because of the character's background I think you have your answer right there.

[Galileo]

Casting spells dose not equal=smart. If your using strength to cast spells you may be able to cast them but chances are your not smart enough to use them in the manner I like my characters to do. An idiot with spells is still an idiot. Even though he can cast spells his plans are still no better. "Hit it until it dies" just becomes "hit it with spells until it dies." You can't pull off convoluted, complex, century spanning, Nicol Bolas-style chessmaster plots and xantos gambits with a character that say has 12 int and RP wise such plans are the kind of thing I am looking for my character to weave. A strength based caster who dose not have a high int is basically Goku: Great power both superpower-wise and physically, can curb stomp anybody on a pure power level vs. power level basis but put him in a game of xantos speed chess and he will fail utterly.

For a less anime-centric example, a high int caster would use cunning and creative strategies to win a game of chess. A strength based caster with low int would win that same game of chess by lighting the chessboard on fire, disintegrating all of the pieces and letting out an evil laugh....wasting valuble spell slots in the process...Hardly a Nicol Bolas style chessmster type..

True, but just because you don't pump Int to ridiculously high levels doesn't mean you're not capable of Xanatos Speed Chess. Honestly, I'd say an Int in the 20s would be sufficient. Having a high Int and pumping up Str for your bonus spells and DCs are not mutually exclusive.

[Last Laugh]

That is still up in the air and depends on how much Int I can get. But I know for a fact I will be squezzing at least 40 levels of wizard casting out of it. I have more or less scraped my original build and am going for something far more caster-y. I do plan on using factotum a bit and picking up true genius to make everything based off my super-int. I am also planing on using some frank and K, mainly the soul merchant class, among others.

I am unfamiliar with the Soul Merchant. A very nice chassis for heavy int builds is Warblade20/Factotum20. This lets you get full base attack before you hit epic levels, and have very nice HP.

[OMG PONIES]

If you wished for a belt of strength +100, you'd be lucky to get a belt of strength +6.

Eh, in my campaign you'd get a belt of STR +100...thousands of feet above your head and plummeting towards you at a dangerous velocity.

Maho, don't quit this game--it seems like you've got a fellow player who's VERY willing to help you homebrew something to increase your enjoyment. Just watch out for the following situation:

LEVEL 40 PWNASAURUS CASTER: "Bwahaha, dominate person! Will Save DC a billion!"
Level 17 wizard: "I cast Mind Blank a few hours ago." :smallbiggrin:

[Lhurgyof]

As for epic spell cheese, again, see my above post. Other members who spent more or less half their gestalt would to get 125-150 cha would be just as pissed off at epic spell cheese as they would wish cheese. As for the thing above, I would rather not be dependent on items to get such an int score because the other party members have slight more then that BASE, which means once they get their items I will still be lagging behind them quite a bit.

And I already kinda asked about the ability boost thing, and members got pissed due to the "they spent half their gestalt on templates" excuse. However, perhaps giving a homebrew template, with a suitable LA would be allowable, since then I would more or less be spending half of my gestalt as well, for ONE template more or less. However, I am a horrid homebrewer so I would need somebody to give me serious help with making such a template.

.... I'd say just disregard the other players and do epic spellcasting cheese?
I mean, they used cheese to get what they want. Just because your cheese doesn't take up half your levels doesn't mean you should have to be held back.

Also, Edit: You're the one currently lagging behind. If they get pissy because you're up to par with them with less of your levels pissed away, then so be it. If they get REALLY anal about it, I'd say it's not the group for you.

[jseah]

The Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide has that Irresistable Spell that someone earlier mentioned.

For a mere +4 spell levels, a spell that offers a save... doesn't.

Definitely get it. Even if you stack Int.



Also, I seem to recall some spell that could drain ability scores from things.

So you summon something big and drain it's abilities. Then use restoration (or heal if you have it) to give it all back and drain it down again.
High hundreds shouldn't be too difficult.

EDIT: oh, I can't quite recall, but something involving level up/down could do that too. By dint of getting you freakishly high HD (and the consequent ability bonus).

EDIT2: just in case anyone's still here...

Owl's Insight, Druid 5, Magic of Faerun. Grants +1 enhancement to wisdom per 2 CL. Chuck on Cosmic Descryer and poof!

[Maho-Tsukai]

I already have a build planned, actually, and it actually in the end achieves an int around hovering around 25-33 depending how I move my stats around which gives me a fair amount of intellect as far as RP purposes go.

[Elfstone]

Good lord.... This thread has 4 pages in one day? wow.
Anyway, I don't have great stats on my build either. Infact I don't think its working out so well at all. We will just have to see.

[Magdela]

This is a very dead horse, and I may have missed the statement "No logicninja guide" but...logicninja guide, look into it a bit. Gives a different outlook on spells, you know?
Woops, forgot to post it:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

Refluff your spells as you want. Instead of enervation "releasing a black ray of cackling energy" you could have it "release a pink ray of giggling school girls."
...I may refluff that in my current game, see if the DM agrees :P

[hydraa]

Here is a possible way for you to get all you mentals high.

Get to middle age
Use the BoVD spell "Steal Life" on a full moon.
Reduce your age to before middle age.
Get to middle age before the next full moon
Repeat

Spell states abilities gained during the week that is reversed remain. (even cheesier it does not state abilities lost so you get your physicals back)

[Escheton]

Here is a possible way for you to get all you mentals high.

Get to middle age
Use the BoVD spell "Steal Life" on a full moon.
Reduce your age to before middle age.
Get to middle age before the next full moon
Repeat

Spell states abilities gained during the week that is reversed remain. (even cheesier it does not state abilities lost so you get your physicals back)

That equals the evolved undead stacking almost precisely, well done.
Also, you would have high cha too, and wis, spot anything, never fail a willsave.