How to make poeple forget without using the Forget-Me Stick

[Ravens_Wing]

So I have a character concept in mind for a caster that dominates and charms whatever gets in his way, but when looking at the spells and their descriptors It doesn't say whether at the end of the spell if the victim
a) even knows that they were dominated or charmed
b) if they remember what they did while dominated or charmed.

This got me looking for a spell that would make a character forget every thing that happened in a given period of time.

Unfortunately I haven't had any luck finding such a spell. So I turn to you Playground.

Is there an Amnesia Spell out there some where and if so where is it?

Forum Powers Activate!

[Lysander]

They do remember what they did, unless the spell says otherwise. They would always realize they've been dominated. I could however see a DM allowing them to remember but not realize they were charmed or under a suggestion spell, as long as the spell didn't alter their behavior too much so they believe they might have actually done it. A handsome charismatic friendly guy casting Charm Person might just be mistaken for a really charismatic person. And a suggestion spell might be mistaken for a very persuasive argument.

And there is an amnesia spell but it's for bards: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm

[Private-Prinny]

Programmed Amnesia (CArcane p.118) will do the trick. If you're evil and in a rush, I would suggest Mindrape (BoVD p.99) instead.

[Coidzor]

Unfortunately programmed amnesia and mindrape are fairly high level.

Your best bet might be getting a once or twice a day item of modify memory, though I can't remember if that'd take as long as reaching an appropriate level to cast one of the wizard/sorcerer spells.

Alternatively, if Prestige Bard is allowed, a dip into that class would get it on your 4th level spell list.

[Ravens_Wing]

Wow that was fast! Yay Forum Powers!

Right, First thanks for the Quick Response, Second..

Modify Memory- Didn't want this particular character to be a bard and I was hoping for a longer amount of time than 5 min.

Programmed Amnesia and Mindrape- Both would work for this concept but man level 9 spells are a bit to high at this point, And while these spells would work I think that their High spell level is at least partially to do with all the other stuff you can do with them.

Are there anymore spells out there? Ideally I would want something that would allow me to erase up to 24 hours worth of memory. Casting Time is good at 10 min or less. Spell level 4-6. If there isn't any more out there i could homebrew something but I would rather not.

[Lysander]

There's also a psionic version of Modify Memory. Could a telepath suit your concept?

And modify memory theoretically can erase a memory of any length, you just have to cast it multiple times.

[Ravens_Wing]

There's also a psionic version of Modify Memory. Could a telepath suit your concept?

And modify memory theoretically can erase a memory of any length, you just have to cast it multiple times.

Heh its funny that you say that The inspiration for my Character is a Telepath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Bester_%28Babylon_5%29) but for simplicity sake and the fact that My group doesn't normally use Psionic rules I am trying to achieve this through the arcane. Also it seems a waste to use 288 lvl 4 spells just to wipe a day from someones mind.

[Thrawn183]

I thought you didn't automatically know your mind had been influenced if you failed your save. I thought it was only if you had things like spellcraft or allies to tell you.

It's come up as part of Iron Heart Surge discussions.

[Set]

Sounds like a good topic for spell research, for a wizard character.

Come up with some suitable limitations, such as the character must 'bottle' the stolen memory in a special flask, and the memory returns if the flask is every opened (or broken), so that he has to hoard these stolen memories, and keep them safe, to prevent people he's mindjobbed over the years from suddenly remembering his shenanigans...

[Ravens_Wing]

Yeah If i do end up having to home brew a spell Such limitations would help to keep the spell level lower. But I do enjoy the idea of a wizard having room full of stolen memories saved in flasks along the walls...

hmm... this may just turn into a plot point in a campaign rather than just a simple character concept...

Still does anyone know of any other "forget me" spells?

[stainboy]

Bestow Curse can do basically anything, within a nebulously defined power limit. Can you convince your DM that forgetting about being charmed is no more powerful than -4 to attacks/saves/checks?

I think your best bet is just social skill checks to get your victims to keep quiet. Blackmail them. Convince them no one will believe an evil wizard made them commit that murder. Ridicule them for being easily manipulated so they're ashamed to tell other people about it. (I'm assuming your character is a sociopath. If not, I don't know what to tell you.)

If you want to steal memories Dark City style, start homebrewing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Be a Beguiler, and PrC into Prestige Bard, maybe? Or use it as one of your expanded spell list options?

[Ravens_Wing]

Ok more specifics on the Build concept to see if that helps.

I was thinking of taking levels of either Wizard or sorcerer (Probably Wizard) then going into The Mindbender Prestige class (C. Arcane pg. 54)

Also It may be helpful to mention that this is a Pathfinder campaign but 3.0 and 3.5 are allowed so I do have a large number of resources available to me.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ok more specifics on the Build concept to see if that helps.

I was thinking of taking levels of either Wizard or sorcerer (Probably Wizard) then going into The Mindbender Prestige class (C. Arcane pg. 54)

Also It may be helpful to mention that this is a Pathfinder campaign but 3.0 and 3.5 are allowed so I do have a large number of resources available to me.

Why not just, you know, Beguiler? It's a lower tier than Wizard, sure, but it's designed specifically for this. The Mindbender/Mindsight trick works with it too. A Neutral Whisper Gnome Beguiler Mindbender Shadowcraft Mage is a good solid build.... go read the handbook

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322

[Jallorn]

Mindbender sucks except for a single level dip... just so you know.

No, I have nothing else to contribute... except that you probably should look at the Beguiler class.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) has a memory loss attack, but a) it's kind of way overkill and b) +4 LA might be hard to work around.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) has a memory loss attack, but a) it's kind of way overkill and b) +4 LA might be hard to work around.

Actually Pixie, in some builds, is generally considered worth the +4 LA.

[Zaq]

There's a Warlock invocation in Cityscape called Devil's Whispers. It's like Suggestion, but at the end, they have to make another save (I think . . . it may be automatic. I don't have the book open.) or believe that it was their idea. See if you can get your hands on that, or if you could use it as a baseline.

[Eorran]

Ask your DM about using a suggestion or geas for the subject to "forget" or "not think about" the day in question. It's limited duration, but might get you by for a while.

If you wanted to be nasty, I suppose starting with feeblemind, then restoring them after you were done, would probably prevent them from retaining very accurate memories.

[Coidzor]

Come up with some suitable limitations, such as the character must 'bottle' the stolen memory in a special flask, and the memory returns if the flask is every opened (or broken), so that he has to hoard these stolen memories, and keep them safe, to prevent people he's mindjobbed over the years from suddenly remembering his shenanigans...


Yeah If i do end up having to home brew a spell Such limitations would help to keep the spell level lower. But I do enjoy the idea of a wizard having room full of stolen memories saved in flasks along the walls...

hmm... this may just turn into a plot point in a campaign rather than just a simple character concept...

Oh yeah. This sort of has, set up for plot hooks that come up after defeating a wizard BBEG/getting out of his place alive and seeing all of the stuff that's going down now that people have regained their memories. And as horrible as puzzle bosses are, having to figure out that you have to let the right people who can throw their weight around remember that he screwed them to win just seems... very thematically tasty. Probably could work to a certain extent as an out of combat sort of (partial) solution to the problem to restore some celestial or dragon or X's memories in order to get certain defenses down or help in the final fight...

Sadly I don't have much more to contribute than to reiterate that Prestige Bard 2 loses 1 spellcasting level and gives some nifty abilities, such as the ability to provide inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration to the rest of your team as support during combat. So it just slows you to Sorcerer's rate of getting new spell levels. So unless you're losing caster levels for some other reason or are wedded to certain PrCs already or just can't get it...

Hmm, actually, I think Bestow Curse has a "Greater" variant somewhere, which seems right up this alley if regular Bestow Curse is deemed unworthy of preventing the person to access a day of their memories/making them not want/think to think about it...

[Welknair]

Thought Bottle from Complete Arcane can do something similar to what you're looking for, but sadly I don't think you can force somebody to relinquish a memory... though you could do it by threatening, it's not that covert...

Yep, I'd opp towards researching something.

2 hours/ caster level seems about right for a... 4th or 5th level spell? And at this level you aren't necessarily erasing and modifying memories so much as... overlapping new ones on top. This would be an added limitation that would allow the subject to regain their memories of the event if they were explicitly told what happened, were subject to particular events to jog their memory, or the like. In these cases, they would be allowed additional saves. A break enchantment spell may also be permitted to work...

[Gavinfoxx]

Greater Bestow Curse is in Spell Compendium.

[Morithias]

In the 3rd party book BOEF the Rake class has this at level 5, where you can delete anything that isn't an ability, skill, etc from a person by touching them.

[DwarfFighter]

From personal experience I know that I can be charmed into doing stupid stuff, like buying a HD DVD player or extra insurance for consumer electronics. I will typically realize that I've been duped, but I won't go chasing after the guy that duped me. In stead I'll kick myself for being and idiot and swear not to get duped again. Then I'll forget and get duped again.

-DF

[Kilmrak]

its not a spell but if you want someone to forget, well basically everything, water from the River Styx is what you want.

One splash and you need to make a DC 17 Fortitude save or have amnesia, even if you make the save you still forget everything that happened in the last 8 hours :smallbiggrin:

[Quietus]

I think that as a DM, if a player wanted to research a spell that did this, I'd let them research variations on the charm/dominate spells, at one spell level higher, that allow a second save after the effect ends vs. forgetting everything they did during that time. They might get additional saves later to recover those memories if someone reminds them of what they did, with a +4 if they provide solid proof.

Depending on what the player was going to do with these, I might even allow it at the same spell level, with the understanding that it's flavor rather than intended to be abused.

[Ravens_Wing]

hmm Lots of things to think about. Excellent!

Okay the beguiler class would be a good class to use instead of wizard or sorcerer

I looked at Devils Whisper and it is a greater invocation so its a little high for the level we are playing at.

Could maybe use bestow curse or the greater version although the greater version is again a little too high spell level wise..

Looked at the rake its interesting not at all for the flavor of play i am going for but if i end up homebrewing something i can use it as a reference for how high a level a spell it would need to be..

Thought Bottle now we are talking here. This is almost exactly what I have been looking for. Its just too bad that its a Item ( fairly expensive one) and not a spell...But at the very least good reference should i have to homebrew

as for the water from the River Styx I dont think I could get my hands on any..


From personal experience I know that I can be charmed into doing stupid stuff, like buying a HD DVD player or extra insurance for consumer electronics. I will typically realize that I've been duped, but I won't go chasing after the guy that duped me. In stead I'll kick myself for being and idiot and swear not to get duped again. Then I'll forget and get duped again.
-DF

Lol Haven't We all DF? Haven't We all...

[Gavinfoxx]

I think you can use extremely high bluff checks to get people to believe blatantly false and impossible things, like their memory of whatever happening was a dream, and your reality that you just said is true.

That's basically the trick that some of those people who have those TV shows that get people to believe or do weird stuff with misdirection / psychology / mentalism / showmanship / hypnosis / neuro-linguistic programming / controlling the scene / etc. do.

Look up this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown

And watch his TV shows if you can get access to them. Remember, that's the sort of thing people can do *in real life*, with *no supernatural powers*...

[Ravens_Wing]

I know that with the bonuses that I will be getting to bluff and the like My character should be able to lie and make people believe something along that line. The only Problem is that I as a player am a TERRIBLE Liar, and since my group usually tends to lean more heavily on the roleplaying of such skill checks instead of the dice aspect of them IT leaves me in a bit of a pinch.

It would be less controversial if I had a spell that just did that instead. That way my character wont suffer penalties due to my inability to roleplay a good lie.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, if you are a terrible liar, just talk to your group, say that you are going to need extra time to pause in the middle of social stuff, come up with a good plausible lie, talk stuff out player to player, and be able to say, "I come up with a convincing lie to get him to believe I'm a nobleman that should have access." Alternately, remember, there are a LOT of nice spells that can buff your bluff check to godly levels, to the point where if you are going by the book, you can just say blatantly false things and they will believe you. Read the entries on the Bluff skill in Complete Adventurer and Player's Handbook, thoroughly, and figure out how to stack modifiers! Just get a +40 or whatever check, and you'll be fine, even if you say something impossible, you're rushing, he doesn't want to believe you, etc. etc. ... PROVIDED they are following the rules as written.

[JonRG]

Homebrew something like the water of the River Styx that would be cheaper and easier to obtain? Maybe lose ~ 1 hr of memory on a successful save and the full duration on a fail?

Glibness (3rd) gives a +30 to bluff for 10 min/level. Beguilers, Bards and (if you use the Secrets of Sarlona powers) Psions all have it on their lists.

[Boci]

there's forbidden speech for BoVD. 5th level, 1 minute casting time, 1d6 str corruption cost, will save negates, but its permanent, and prevents a creature from communicating to others about 1 specific topic.

[Anxe]

Here's a homebrew metamagic feat.

Add +2 to the level of a compulsion spell such as charm, dominate, or geas/quest. The target of the spell will not remember being under its influence.