Cool PrCs that were too weak.

[Angry Bob]

Disclaimer: I'm not looking for a 'power level of casters' fight.

Master Transmogrifist. Acolyte of the Skin. Blighter. True Necromancer.

What do they all have in common? They all suck*, even in low/mid-optimization games, but they're all really cool.

Who's always wanted to play a class, made a prospective build, or researched the class, only to be forced to admit that it just won't be that great of an idea to take it? What class? What changes would you make to the class that would make it playable?

*Cripples your build weaker for no good reason. A full caster losing a few Caster levels still only means that, at high levels, they blow up the world as a standard action instead of a swift action.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Acolyte of the Skin, Tempest, Order of the Bow Initiate (AFAIK the 3.0 version was awesome), black flame zealot. Etc

[Sdonourg]

I've heard that Master Transmogrifist is unbelievably broken.
There is a Fiendbinder Handbook
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9712.0

[Kylarra]

Pyrokineticist and its energy variants are always fun, but less than optimal in most cases. Dragon disciple also nets honorable mention.

[gbprime]

And yet oddly, some of these are worth their weight in gold when used in gestalt builds...

[Angry Bob]

Did I say Fiendbinder? I meant Acolyte of the Skin.

[Angry Bob]

Also, Master of Many Forms for the druid.

[mabriss lethe]

And yet oddly, some of these are worth their weight in gold when used in gestalt builds...

Not so odd when you think about it. pretty much every prc has some nifty tricks. In gestalt, you get the nifty tricks without being bogged down by the suck since you have another class to carry the weight.

[gbprime]

Also, Master of Many Forms for the druid.

Master of Many Forms isn't for the Druid. It's for the Wildshape Ranger. Followed by Warshaper. :smallcool:

[Psyren]

Alienist! Decent flavor ripped a new one by terrible execution.

Metamind! *bursts into tears*
(Fixed in Hyperconscious)

Psion Uncarnate! Actually, Meditant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c) bends this one over and paddles it a nice rosy red, so I'm not sad here :smalltongue:

Child of Night! You get darker and creepier until... well, it doesn't actually go anywhere with that. Some kind of apotheosis where you became a shadow or something (permanently, not some wussy x/day thing) would have been much better.

Zerth Cenobite! One of the coolest abilities in D&D given to one of the worst PrCs.

[Angry Bob]

Right. It'd just be better if it(the Master of Many Forms) did what Prestige Classes should do - narrowing the focus on one aspect of a character without crippling them by taking away everything else.

[Doughnut Master]

I think Eye of Gruumsh is a really sweet idea, but doesn't seem worth it.

[Thurbane]

A few of the core PrCs actually: Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple, Dwarven Defender...

[Angry Bob]

Eye of Gruumsh: Play a water orc, find out how whirling frenzy interacts with swing blindly. I played one, it sort of owned, and it helped that the DM let it matter when interacting with non-hostile orcs. That said, you don't want to take more than two levels in it unless you're really intent on getting [pathetic] blindsight.

[Temotei]

Shadowdancer should be more than a dip.

[tyckspoon]

Anything that lets you take on more qualities of things when you shapechange is probably at best decent, and Master Transmogrifist lets you do that. It's just kind of hilarious that a shapechanging-specialist PrC drops enough CLs that it won't actually get Shapechange the spell.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A few of the core PrCs actually: Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple, Dwarven Defender...

Duelist, Horizon Walker (barring the Horizon Tripper),hierophant, Shadowdancer (for more than 1 level dip),.... actually any non-spellcasting (advancing or granting it) prg classes in core are somewhat lackluster.

[gbprime]

Anything that lets you take on more qualities of things when you shapechange is probably at best decent, and Master Transmogrifist lets you do that. It's just kind of hilarious that a shapechanging-specialist PrC drops enough CLs that it won't actually get Shapechange the spell.

Woah, deja vu. :smallamused:

[Maho-Tsukai]

Two words....True Necromancer. Also, Mindbender. Sure, lots of builds take a 1 level dip in that class but seriously, nobody ever dose anything else with it and I absolutely LOVE the idea of a class based around dominating people that's not the thrallheard/psionic exclusive. However, with it's 5/10 CL progression the Mindbender sadly is relegated to the same position many of these other classes are.

[Psyren]

How could I forget Hierophant. What a freaking disappointment. The Arch-cleric that never was. :smallmad:

[Private-Prinny]

Look through the archives. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)

There are 15 right there, but they can all be made to work somehow.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Shadowdancer should be more than a dip.

I can not agree more. Shadowdancer is one of my favorite Prc's. Shadow Jump has saved my butt more times than one.

[Amphetryon]

+1 to Prinny's link.

Green Star Adept is a particularly egregious offender; in most cases, your character actively gets worse the further along you go.

[WitchSlayer]

Lasher

Who doesn't want to become Indiana Jones?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Actually, with Practiced Manifester, Metamind is a pretty decent psionic PrC if you're going into epic...

[Zaq]

A few from Magic of Incarnum. Specifically, Incandescent Champion and Witchborn Binder. Incandescent Champion would be just fine if it actually advanced any kind of meldshaping, but it doesn't. Witchborn Binder needs to stop losing so many meldshaping levels, but also needs more than that.

Let's not forget Combat Trapsmith. A for concept, C (at best) for execution. The setting time needs to be reduced MUCH sooner, and the traps need to scale better (either with your Craft result, or with your ranks in the skill, so that they stay relevant after you finish the class). I'd totally play a revamped version of it, though.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Oh, I'd also like to mention Fleshwarper. Mechanically, it's mostly sound... but it's a $&%^#! to qualify for.

[Angry Bob]

Fleshwarper. Bug your DM about a feat that gives heal as a class skill. Alternately, start as an Adept.

[gbprime]

Fleshwarper. Bug your DM about a feat that gives heal as a class skill. Alternately, start as an Adept.

Or take a level in something clerical, or human paragon, or the Able Learner feat, or suck it up and pay 8 skill points for 4 ranks in heal... as requirements go, it's pretty mild.

[Zaq]

Or take a level in something clerical, or human paragon, or the Able Learner feat, or suck it up and pay 8 skill points for 4 ranks in heal... as requirements go, it's pretty mild.

The four ranks in Heal aren't the problem. It's the ten ranks that are required to take the necessary Graft Flesh feat.

[bannable]

Fiend-blooded. A Sorcerer cannot complete this class until epic levels.

[Thurbane]

Fiend-blooded. A Sorcerer cannot complete this class until epic levels.
Unless he uses one of a dozen different methods to get the required Knowledge (the planes) ranks...:smallconfused:

...yes, out of the box, plain vanilla core Sorcerer cannot get into the class without multiclassing or until very high levels. It's a design flaw, but hardly insurmountable. Once you're in, it's a very flavorful and decent mechanical PrC.

[Psyren]

Fiend-blooded. A Sorcerer cannot complete this class until epic levels.

Planar Sorcerer can finish on time, without losing CL. (There's some flavor synergy too :smallsmile:)

[ericgrau]

A few of the core PrCs actually: Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple, Dwarven Defender...
All still significantly better than the core martial classes. Yes, I mean when taken by builds filled with core martial classes.

Duelist, Horizon Walker (barring the Horizon Tripper),hierophant, Shadowdancer (for more than 1 level dip),.... actually any non-spellcasting (advancing or granting it) prg classes in core are somewhat lackluster.
This is more like it, though like Horizon Walker there are likewise some minor applications for hierophant and some extremely narrow scouting opportunities for shadowdancer 2-10. Duelist, however, I've never been able to figure out how to optimize even for the most specific of purpses. Maybe in an aristocratic setting where nobody can wear armor anyway. Ya, duelist has to take the cake in core.

[RandomLunatic]

Drunken Master.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Drunken Master.

Take a look at the current Iron Chef Optimization Challenge, and you might change your mind on that one.

[Dralnu]

Arcane Archer. Probably the top PrC I'd like to play if it wasn't so bad.

Black Flame Zealot. Really cool fluff. Divine assassin who uses black flames, neato!

Blighter has cool fluff but people tell me that it's bad. Honestly it doesn't look so bad, I guess it just looks 'bad' in comparison to a broken class.

Daggerspell Mage. Again, amazing fluff. No point in ever playing it though.

Rage Mage. This one angers me at how much potential is squandered.

Enlightened Fist. Okay, this one isn't so bad I guess, but it's simply not worth it unless your campaign starts at a high enough level. Your BAB is just going to be atrocious.

Actually now that I looked it up, what's everyone's opinion on the Sacred Fist PrC? I always liked the idea of magic'd monks and this one actually looks a lot better than Enlightened Fist for that purpose.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Fiend-blooded. A Sorcerer cannot complete this class until epic levels.

Where is this fiend-blooded? It sounds interesting.

I kind of liked the look of both geomancer and geometer seemed like unique ideas that could create some fun characters... I don't think either are very good though.

[Eldariel]

Acolyte of the Skin
Arcane Archer
Beastmaster
Bladesinger
Blighter
Blood Magus
Dragon Disciple
Drunken Master (really, REALLY needs Improvised Weapon Proficiency :smallfrown:)
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Green Star Adept
Master of the Unseen Hand
Master Transmogrifist
Mindbender
Mindspy
Invisible Blade
Order of the Bow Initiate
Reaping Mauler
Seeker of the Song
Shadowdancer
Spellsword
Spymaster
Tempest
Warpriest

Off the top of my head; PRCs I'd like to play but that suck too much to do so (beyond one-level dips).

[Strife Warzeal]

Actually now that I looked it up, what's everyone's opinion on the Sacred Fist PrC? I always liked the idea of magic'd monks and this one actually looks a lot better than Enlightened Fist for that purpose.

I don't know (yet, currently on the way to being one) I like the idea.The build I am working on so far gives me 8th level cleric spells and ~12 levels in monk unarmed damage. Then add on Amulet of Natural Attacks so I can get the same enhancements as our barbarian, but for my unarmed strikes. With Improved Natural Attack gives me fairly good attack damage and high level casting.

Edit: Took a look at the build I have, Cleric 7/Monk 3/Sacred Fist 10(gives a total of +8 to divine casting classes) gives a CL of 15, with 13 monk levels as far as strike damage goes.

[Grelna the Blue]

I suppose, maybe, something could be done to make Bladesinger not complete dreck in conjunction with Swashbuckler, Duelist, and Archivist. But Bladesong was much, much stronger in 2nd Ed than in 3.5, and that just seems wrong.

[Akal Saris]

Did I say Fiendbinder? I meant Acolyte of the Skin.

No, no, Fiendbinder counts as an awesome idea that is really too weak to justify taking it over Malconvoker or thaumaturgist, handbook or not.

[Thurbane]

Where is this fiend-blooded? It sounds interesting.
Heroes of Horror. Gives a Sorc bonus spells, ability boosts and his familiar gets the Fiendish template. 9/10 casting, and only level 10 loses casting.

[BunnyMaster42]

I just have to mention the Entropomancer. The whole reveling in destruction and being able to summon tiny black holes is pretty darn sweet, but mechanically speaking it pretty much sucks. I mean all it gets is an extremely weak "blasting" ability and a short range anti-healing,field that at higher levels allows you to force a reroll within the area and then makes all wounds done within it bleed. Oh, and immunity to Spheres of Annihilation as a capstone. And to top it's only 5/10 progression.

I guess you might be able to make a point of it being more of a gish/melee prc, but even then it's still pretty horrible. Great concepts, horrible executioin.

[Thrawn183]

No Reaping Mauler?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Arcane Archer. Probably the top PrC I'd like to play if it wasn't so bad.

Black Flame Zealot. Really cool fluff. Divine assassin who uses black flames, neato!

Blighter has cool fluff but people tell me that it's bad. Honestly it doesn't look so bad, I guess it just looks 'bad' in comparison to a broken class.

Daggerspell Mage. Again, amazing fluff. No point in ever playing it though.

Rage Mage. This one angers me at how much potential is squandered.

Enlightened Fist. Okay, this one isn't so bad I guess, but it's simply not worth it unless your campaign starts at a high enough level. Your BAB is just going to be atrocious.

Actually now that I looked it up, what's everyone's opinion on the Sacred Fist PrC? I always liked the idea of magic'd monks and this one actually looks a lot better than Enlightened Fist for that purpose.

I have a rather good opinion of Sacred Fist. Unfortunately I take a rather unusual approach to the class. I enter at level seven after 2 levels of monk and 4 levels of either ranger or paladin. The result is a loss of only 1BAB by the time you finish Sacred Fist and get near full ranger/paladin spellcasting and most of the monk abilities if you take either ascetic stalker or ascetic knight (both in CAd.) Neither combo is significantly more powerful than the base classes they use, but I like them.

[Eldariel]

No Reaping Mauler?

Ninja'd you. Though it's not all that cool in my opinion. But still, it's bad enough to warrant a place here.

[Psyren]

Blighter has cool fluff but people tell me that it's bad. Honestly it doesn't look so bad, I guess it just looks 'bad' in comparison to a broken class.


Well, you need to smoke trees to use your class features.
...I suppose that could be pretty cool. (It's annoying in practice though.)


Actually now that I looked it up, what's everyone's opinion on the Sacred Fist PrC? I always liked the idea of magic'd monks and this one actually looks a lot better than Enlightened Fist for that purpose.

Sacred Fist is awesome. It is one of the few RAW, 10/10 casting full BAB PrCs that exists. Even if your DM ignores RAW and rules table over text it is very good; it advances the important stuff (fist dice, speed and AC) so you still feel like a monk, just with added oomph from the cleric list and Wis synergy.

I also love the fluff, that they basically abandon every monk weapon except their knux.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ninja'd you. Though it's not all that cool in my opinion. But still, it's bad enough to warrant a place here.

Ever since I first read Reaping Mauler, it seemed obvious to me that the requirement of Clever Wrestling and the gaining of Improved Grapple as a bonus feat was an editing mistake. Just switch them and the class actually works kinda-semi-okay.

[Coidzor]

I suppose, maybe, something could be done to make Bladesinger not complete dreck in conjunction with Swashbuckler, Duelist, and Archivist. But Bladesong was much, much stronger in 2nd Ed than in 3.5, and that just seems wrong.

Heh, that reminds me, I stumbled upon a thread from the age of dinosaurs a few days ago where I found people complaining about Bladesinger being rendered moot by Abjurant Champion. I looked up the class and couldn't for the life of me figure out how anyone would want it compared with Eldritch Knight.

[Thrawn183]

Ever since I first read Reaping Mauler, it seemed obvious to me that the requirement of Clever Wrestling and the gaining of Improved Grapple as a bonus feat was an editing mistake. Just switch them and the class actually works kinda-semi-okay.

The class has two problems. 1) Its grappling is still shut down by Freedom of Movement. How many PrC's get wooped by a fourth level spell or a magic item I have gotten on every single one of my high level characters? 2) It doesn't provide enough bonii to grappling (or negating opponents' size categories) to be able to grapple the really big enemies.

[Eldariel]

Ever since I first read Reaping Mauler, it seemed obvious to me that the requirement of Clever Wrestling and the gaining of Improved Grapple as a bonus feat was an editing mistake. Just switch them and the class actually works kinda-semi-okay.

It still gives you nothing which is a rather big drawback for a class in general. Much like Core Fighter *slitthroat* Oh, and it gains Mobility, quite possibly the worst feat in the game, as a bonus. Just sayin'. Overall, when a grappler class gets a class feature that allows using something other than their grapple-check to resist grapple, you know something is really, really wrong.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, a lot of the classes on the list are just on here because they don't give enough caster levels. That's still worlds better than reaping mauler which just.... yeah.

[herrhauptmann]

Eye of Gruumsh: Play a water orc, find out how whirling frenzy interacts with swing blindly. I played one, it sort of owned, and it helped that the DM let it matter when interacting with non-hostile orcs. That said, you don't want to take more than two levels in it unless you're really intent on getting [pathetic] blindsight.
Sounds like you just need a little bit of mageslayer then. Blindsight is meh, but Pierce magic concealment more than makes up for it.



Witchslayer (ToM). It's a great idea, and the capstone is loads of fun. But the save DC is so weak for the capstone, it never works for a player when they need it. Meanwhile, the other abilities also seem neat, but they're so limited they rarely get any use ingame.

Occult Slayer. Gives you some slight boosts in damage and other abilities. But provides nothing in the way of actually reaching the wizard so you can kill him.

[Endarire]

I like the flavor of Shadow Sun Ninja. 'Tis a pity that Unarmed Swordsage does most of why I'd want it. (Unarmed strike damage and maneuvers.)

[Grelna the Blue]

Heh, that reminds me, I stumbled upon a thread from the age of dinosaurs a few days ago where I found people complaining about Bladesinger being rendered moot by Abjurant Champion. I looked up the class and couldn't for the life of me figure out how anyone would want it compared with Eldritch Knight.

It's clearly utterly useless for a real caster or for anyone wanting a character anywhere near optimized. However, the Int modifier as a dodge bonus to AC from Bladesinger together with the Int bonus to damage from Swashbuckler and the Int bonus added to your Dex bonus for AC from Duelist (so the Int bonus could be counted in twice for AC) means that you could probably play a high Dex + Int character who wouldn't absolutely suck in melee, and with 1 level in Wizard or Bard (I forgot that Bladesingers can only be arcane casters, so no Archivists) would gain some low-level casting ability that would be slightly useful. Very meh compared to some builds I've seen, but playable. I guess at some point early on you'd throw in a level or two of Fighter. A lot of work for not a lot of payoff, but you could probably eventually have a fairly decent AC and do okay damage.

Back in 2nd Ed. though, the bladesinger kit, meant for elven fighter/mages, was the way to go if you were an elven fighter/mage. And the bladesong proficiency given to a elven single-classed fighter was pure win. A little too much win, actually, making me wonder whether Bladesinger 3.5 was some weird sort of retroactive nerf by an embittered GM.

[Magic Myrmidon]

DEFINITELY the Arcane Archer. My two favorite kind of fighters are magic users and archers. And that's the perfect PrC for it.

That is, if it was a bit better. :/

[skywalker]

How'sabout "Apostle of Peace?"

[Eldariel]

Duelist has exactly one niché: Getting insanely high AC without using spells on silly levels (the levels where casters are stopping time and reshaping reality). Start with 20 Dex, 20 Int. Put all level-ups in Dex. You end up with 36 Dex, 30 Int. Get Bracers of Armor +8. Get a source of Shield such as Shield-spell. Maintain constant Total Defense outside combat (effectively cuts your movement speed by half). Get Uncanny Dodge. You could also stack Monk Wis to AC on top of that so we could add another 28 to the deal. Always fight defensively when attacking.

This gets us:
10 + 8 Armor + 4 Shield + 13 Dex + 10 Int + 9 Wis + 5 Natural + 5 Deflection + 10 Elaborate Parry + 3 Defensive Fighting + possible Combat Expertise to AC = 77 all the time at the cost of -4 to attack. We could even drop Monk and an 18 entirely for 68 AC, and go down to more realistic pair of 16s on Gray Elf for 66 AC. We still have decent To Hit and so on. Remove Shield and you're still at 62 AC.

Of course, this is completely useless outside theoretical optimization since it requires LOTS of high end gear, very high level and so on. And more importantly, its offense is like 100 damage a turn (which, on a full attack with magic weapon and buffs, is downright terrible and it's at -4 assuming all attacks hit) on level 20 with no control options (since we max Dex so we can't get enough Str for combat options). It's also got horrible Fort & Will-saves which are really much more important than AC (AC protects you from damage, Fort & Will-saves protect you from death or fighting your party; one penetration of AC is small matter but one Fort or Will and you're dead or worse), terrible HP pool (so those 20s will hurt a LOT, especially with PA for 20 from everyone), etc. So all in all, this build is a terrible, terrible turtle. Like Dwarven Defender except 25 times worse. But it's the one niché Duelist fits; getting skyhigh AC without resorting to Shapechange, Magic Jar or other cheating known as spells. And of course, it's only doable on levels where spells can already do that without a single level investment (you need infinite Tomes and stuff to ramp your AC that high).

[Makiru]

Seconding the Apostle of Peace. The class itself isn't bad, it's the requirements that get you, though.

Also, Cancer Mage. Beyond Festering Anger cheese, it doesn't have much going for it, and that's a shame, because it's extremely flavorful.

Survivor, if only for the "you have to suck this much to take this class" entry.

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh! I have one! Lantaan Artificer (AKA Gnome Artificer, AKA silly sad cash sink).

A Prc from out of Magic of Faerun that lets you make overpriced and over weight non magical wands that take up slots on the body. From a tiny list. For large piles of cash. Honestly, I'd like to give playing one a shot, if I can find some way to make it a viable option. Oh yeah, you need to be able to cast first level illusion spells, but get nothing to advance casting. (it was ment to be a gadget/tinker PrC, but fell flat on its face)


Beast Heart Adept- So cool. Get a bunch of monsters to chum around with. If only you could advance them some way after you finished the class :smallfrown:

[Reynard]

Where is this fiend-blooded? It sounds interesting.

I kind of liked the look of both geomancer and geometer seemed like unique ideas that could create some fun characters... I don't think either are very good though.

Geomancer is pretty bad, but Geometer?

Geometer is a decent PrC, and certainly better than going straight Wizard.

[ericgrau]

Duelist has exactly one niché: Getting insanely high AC without using spells on silly levels (the levels where casters are stopping time and reshaping reality).

Hmmm maybe if I was making a high level melee build. That was the other issue I had; until you get elaborate parry at Duelist 7 IIRC the AC is also suck. With high level magic weapons and the lack of uberchargers in most play groups I don't think the damage would be so bad. 2 poor saves, -4 vs. good saves, isn't the end of the world either. Especially with the boost from pre-req class(es) and that will and ref are normally poor anyway. But all that trouble for nothing more than a strong defense that you lose whenever you're not in melee. And until high levels you don't even get that. Ugh.

Arcane archer seems like something people really want to play, so I'll offer a couple options:
1. One level dip as a caster. This is not a caster class; if you want more as a caster look elsewhere.
2. Look elsewhere. Try a gish archer maybe.
3. Be a non-caster. Basically for archers DMM persist cleric > ideal unhindered round 2+ level 16-20 buffed cleric > fully buffed fighter > partly buffed arcane archer > partly buffed fighter > unbuffed arcane archer > buffed cleric > unbuffed fighter. Char Op may shun them in ideal scenarios but most casual groups don't give you half a dozen buffs and simultaneously a DM who doesn't dispel. If you get any at all you usually get 1-2 which can be used on things besides greater magic weapon.
4. Go epic. Greater magic weapon and divine power progression don't continue into epic levels, leaving only problematic epic spells.

[Runestar]

Zerth cenobite actually made for a really cool npc in my game. Only catch was that he ended up using all his special abilities in that encounter. Meaning that in the hands of a PC, you are pretty much screwed. :smallannoyed:

Also, spellsword lv2+.

[Amphetryon]

High Elemental Binder. I love the concept. The execution? Not so much.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Duelist. It was painfully underpowered.

[The Glyphstone]

Green Star Adept. Probably the only PrC in the game that charges you money to suck, more and more as you gain levels.

[Eldariel]

Hmmm maybe if I was making a high level melee build. That was the other issue I had; until you get elaborate parry at Duelist 7 IIRC the AC is also suck. With high level magic weapons and the lack of uberchargers in most play groups I don't think the damage would be so bad. 2 poor saves, -4 vs. good saves, isn't the end of the world either. Especially with the boost from pre-req class(es) and that will and ref are normally poor anyway. But all that trouble for nothing more than a strong defense that you lose whenever you're not in melee. And until high levels you don't even get that. Ugh.

Well, the saves are further weakened by the Monk Syndrome except you need to focus on stats that don't even boost the saves. Chances are unless you have abnormally high stats you'll have to skip on Wisdom; your Con will probably be the same as your average melee's but meh, poor progression still hurts.

And the class's damage bonus is actually weaker than simply TWFing WITHOUT bonus damage. And it's precision. So...yeah, it's kinda überterrible. And the Int-bonus to AC will start out absolutely terrible leaving your AC further down for the first 7 levels before Elaborate Parry.


Will-save is actually one reason I like Dragon Disciple for Core Melee; between the caster dip and Dragon Disciple-levels you're looking at like +6 to Will-saves. That and Barbarian with the Morale-bonus from Rage (though annoyingly, you of course can get KOd first round of combat before you can Rage even on the levels where you can afford Rage for all encounters). A warrior with poor Will-saves is nothing but dead weight (against Mindflayers, Beholders, many Undead, etc.) or an extra opponent (against Outsiders, Dragons, Liches, etc.).

Mind Blank helps, of course, but it's a level 8 spell and most of those capable of Dominating can also Dispel, some even in Quickened fashion. Meh. May be just me, but I'd never play a warrior-type without at least as good Will-saves as your average Wizard. 'cause really, even just getting Plane Shifted to e.g. Positive Energy Plane really blows.


I'd still say Archer Core Cleric should be able to outdo Core Arcane Archer on most levels, simply because Arcane Archers also lose BAB to enter the class (and the entry is level 8 at the minimum, making the enchantment bonus only outdo Greater Magic Weapon from level 14 forward), making them only 2 points of attack bonus ahead until level 13; nothing Quickened Divine Favor can't fix and then some.

Though yeah, if Cleric runs out of those he'll be less efficient. But like, levels 8-11, Cleric has GMW for +2 enhancement while Arcane Archer only gets +2 enhancement on level 10. And on level 9, Cleric can Quicken Divine Might for +3/+3. And even the animal buffs may still be relevant on these levels and they're 10 min/level.

[Psyren]

How'sabout "Apostle of Peace?"

What could have been the "anti-Ur-Priest" ended up flattened beneath a host of editing issues, a dismal spell list and awful feats.

[gbprime]

Arcane Archer
Dragon Disciple
Duelist
Dwarven Defender

Actually, these have been around so long, that I've engineered some hard hitting Tier 3 builds out of each of these that take at least 6 levels in them. But since the next Iron Chef may involve one of these... I'll say no more for now. :smallcool:



Order of the Bow Initiate


I've seen this one done well. In a campaign where every single baddie had damage reduction to keep the tanks off of them, the ability to fire a billion dice in one arrow was quite effective.

[Grim Reader]

Shining Blade.

Dragon Disciple is an excellent PrC -for Epic. Extra spells slots for your post level 9 spells, and extra str to keep your hitting bonus going after the BaB stops.

Blighter is also extremly strong -as long as you enter it as an Elan whose Druid levels were prior to him going the Aberration route. Good for Arcane Hieropant or FL builds.

[SilverLeaf167]

Ruathar from Races of the Wild.
Well, it does have 3/3 casting, but you could definitely do something better with the three levels, with all the caster PrCs out there. It gives you an ability that makes non-hostile elves like you, a magic item costing about 2,000 gp for free, low-light vision, minor skill bonuses, a +1 for some rolls at night, AND AS A CAPSTONE, longer life. Complete with poor saves and BAB, and the minimum entry level of 6.

Now that I think of it, the fluff's not very cool, either.

[gbprime]

Ruathar from Races of the Wild.
Well, it does have 3/3 casting, but you could definitely do something better with the three levels, with all the caster PrCs out there. It gives you an ability that makes non-hostile elves like you, a magic item costing about 2,000 gp for free, low-light vision, minor skill bonuses, a +1 for some rolls at night, AND AS A CAPSTONE, longer life. Complete with poor saves and BAB, and the minimum entry level of 6.

Now that I think of it, the fluff's not very cool, either.

I rather like it, actually, thanks to it's full casting. It's a good use for dead levels at the end of a build, or to sneak in some needed skill ranks.

And anything beats raw sorcerer levels. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Ruathar from Races of the Wild.
Well, it does have 3/3 casting, but you could definitely do something better with the three levels, with all the caster PrCs out there. It gives you an ability that makes non-hostile elves like you, a magic item costing about 2,000 gp for free, low-light vision, minor skill bonuses, a +1 for some rolls at night, AND AS A CAPSTONE, longer life. Complete with poor saves and BAB, and the minimum entry level of 6.

Now that I think of it, the fluff's not very cool, either.

It's a very good PrC actually. It has medium BAB, full casting, two good saves, a good skill list with 4+Int per level, d6 HD, one free MWP, low-light vision and some random bonuses. It's only 3 levels so it's easy to fit anywhere and compared to Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer (or any full caster with few class features, really), it's just almost strictly better.

You may find it "uninteresting" or some such, but I find calling it "weak" quite odd; it's a full caster with class features! Archer Clerics in particular absolutely adore the class. Saves you a feat in MWP, gets you a nice base bow, gets you all the important archery skills, and random bonuses to them that are always useful.

EDIT: Swordsages all around!

[Psyren]

Ruathar from Races of the Wild.
Well, it does have 3/3 casting, but you could definitely do something better with the three levels, with all the caster PrCs out there. It gives you an ability that makes non-hostile elves like you, a magic item costing about 2,000 gp for free, low-light vision, minor skill bonuses, a +1 for some rolls at night, AND AS A CAPSTONE, longer life. Complete with poor saves and BAB, and the minimum entry level of 6.

Now that I think of it, the fluff's not very cool, either.

You're kidding; Ruathar is awesome.

1) It's very hard for non-nature classes to get skills like Survival and Handle Animal - this PrC enables that, without losing caster levels.

2) You can actually get in at level 5 if you take the "ability to cast 3rd-level spells" entry route. (You can even get in at level 2 with a light dusting of cheddar.)

3) MWP for free - for a PrC with no feat requirements, this is huge.

4) The prereqs are so flexible that you can qualify with and advance any casting class in the game - even Warlocks or Shadowcasters. The special requirement of saving an elf's life can easily be written into your backstory.

5) You live longer (and if you're an elf, WAY longer.) How cool is that?

[Eldariel]

Actually, these have been around so long, that I've engineered some hard hitting Tier 3 builds out of each of these that take at least 6 levels in them. But since the next Iron Chef may involve one of these... I'll say no more for now. :smallcool:

...huh. But it's a different matter to carry those levels as a handicap and actually utilizing them. That said, fair enough.


I've seen this one done well. In a campaign where every single baddie had damage reduction to keep the tanks off of them, the ability to fire a billion dice in one arrow was quite effective.

There are much more economic means of overcoming DR though. Such as Eternal Blade. Factotum does an alright job at it too. And of course, far superior forms of precision damage like Skirmish or Sneak Attack.

Better yet, there are ways to break the range limit on Sneak Attack while OotBI will never shoot beyond 60' effectively, making him just a really bad melee build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Jumping into the bandwagon, Ruahtar is great for gish build who want to avoid loosing CL.

[Starbuck_II]

Ever since I first read Reaping Mauler, it seemed obvious to me that the requirement of Clever Wrestling and the gaining of Improved Grapple as a bonus feat was an editing mistake. Just switch them and the class actually works kinda-semi-okay.

Nah, we can fix that by taking levelsin Leviathan hunter to remove the prereqs of Clever Wrestler. It gets the feat as a bonus feat without needing to qualify.

Reaping maulers only drawback was size limit. That is gone now.

[Person_Man]

I think that a big flaw in general with most prestige classes in general is that they have one schtick (which is often copied by several other classes or PrC) and everything else tends to be filled in with mundane abilities.

For example, the Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) has the Stonewarden ability, which allows you to add your Constitution to your AC in place of your Dexterity. Con to AC is duplicated in slightly different ways by the Forsaker, Fist of the Forest, and the Dahlver-Nar Vestige. And the rest of the Deepwarden's levels are filled with modestly useful abilities like Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge and tripe such as Trap Sense, Animal Messenger, Sending, Swift Tracker, and Greater Animal Messenger. So essentially, every semi-optimized Deepwarden build will be Whatever 5/Deepwarden 2/Something Else X, and will only be played by people who don't have access to other splat books who don't understand that AC isn't that big of a deal.

Out of the 782 official prestige classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc), I would guess that 80% of them were written with this formula. Think up a sorta of but not really unique game mechanic, give it to the PrC in the first, second, or last level, and then fill the rest of the PrC with garbage.

[Psyren]

Out of the 782 official prestige classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc), I would guess that 80% of them were written with this formula. Think up a sorta of but not really unique game mechanic, give it to the PrC in the first, second, or last level, and then fill the rest of the PrC with garbage.

Sturgeon's Law at work :smallbiggrin:

It gets worse when:
a) The "unique" ability or abilities in question isn't all that strong or useful,
b) WotC overestimates the usefulness of said ability, and starts stripping caster levels or BAB to compensate
c) A combination of (a) and (b)

[WinceRind]

Rage Mage from Complete Warrior.

I think it has really kick-ass flavour, but if you look at the class abilities they are simply pathetic. If you go into this class, you will end up faring worse then a simple barbarian. and their capstone, while kind of cool, is a bit of a joke because it just compensates for rage upgrades you didn't get from Barbarian levels.

If it had full BAB, I could probably be okay with severely weakened spellcasting. If it allowed you to cast all spells in rage as swift actions as opposed to standard (and come on, it's not like you're going to get much further then 4th or maybe 5th level spells by level 20 if you focus on physical damage it would be even better and would actually fit the whole image of angry dude who is so pissed he's able to cast spells out of his natural talent.

Sure, you -can- play it in the current form, but a few changes could make it so much better...

[big teej]

there was a class in .... I think masters of the wild

that you could only keep your class powers if you destroyed magic items.

didn't strike me as a great idea.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Forsaker IIRC

[GoatBoy]

Arcane Archer and Duelist have gotten some love from Pathfinder. Head on over (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses.html) and have a look.

Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron is spiffy, flavour-wise, but pushes MAD to a degree not thought possible.

Renegade Mastermaker. WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE? Doesn't get much return for caster levels it gives up, though.

Dirgesinger. Tell me this guy isn't straight out of Metalocalypse.

[Telonius]

Master of Masks. I'd love for there to be a reason to stay in it for more than 1 level (2 tops).

[SamsDisciple]

Most prc's are specialists so it is situational to their usefullnes but that being said any class can be usefully or even broken. Ex. I saw a level 5 commoner kill a level 6 barbarian due to the situation and clever play (handle animal in the middle of a huge chicken coop sending the chickens at the barbarian) I am currently playing a mindbender which most people agree is a dip only class but it is now so OP that I am considering taking it out or remaking it for fun's sake of the party.
Other classes that seem fun that's I just can't seem to do are eye of grumsh and rage mage

Edit: and of course the evangelist with his vorpal handkerchief ;)

[Akal Saris]

DEFINITELY the Arcane Archer. My two favorite kind of fighters are magic users and archers. And that's the perfect PrC for it.

That is, if it was a bit better. :/

Next time you play with a reasonable DM, you might ask to use the Pathfinder version of the Arcane Archer. PF does some things well and fails at others, but I think they did a superb job with the Arcane Archer.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.html

Oh, and there was a great and simple arcane archer build I saw a while back: Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5. BAB +20, CL 20 (actual CL 10).

[Doomboy911]

Kind of the urban soul at one point I want to take the class but only if I knew the city was built on top of a few hundred dungeons and everything outside that city was really boring.

[Runestar]

The dragon prcs in draconomicon.

[WinceRind]

Arcane Archer and Duelist have gotten some love from Pathfinder. Head on over (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/prestigeClasses.html) and have a look.

Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron is spiffy, flavour-wise, but pushes MAD to a degree not thought possible.

Renegade Mastermaker. WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE? Doesn't get much return for caster levels it gives up, though.

Dirgesinger. Tell me this guy isn't straight out of Metalocalypse.

Hell yes Dirgesinger... If only it offered spell progression =/

If I manage to persuade my DM to allow that, a warforged bard named "Heavy Metal" with Dirgesinger PrC would just be glorious. And I bet prestidigitation could do something about having an electric guitar... Or at least the appearance of such.

More on topic, Fist of the Forest.

Yeah, everyone loves to say how awesome it is. Sure.

But if you do not ignore the fluff, it's an absolutely horrible class for a lot of campaigns. Can't willingly sleep in buildings, can't buy food, have to live in the forest, basically, and if you break any of the rules - tough luck, you're out of most of your class's abilities for like 30 days.
And you have to spend these 30 days living in complete wilderness.

Although I guess the PrC itself is still very powerful, but the fluff is also kinda nice if only restrictive.

[umbrapolaris]

Tempest, just a compilation of feats...

[Angry Bob]

Fist of the Forest you only lose your abilities if you sleep inside when there were other options.

[Person_Man]

The dragon prcs in draconomicon.

I sorta agree. I used to think that they were all very poorly written, until I realized that they're basically for the DM to create uber enemies for Epic level games. Pre-Epic there's really not a reason for dragon PrC, as just adding more dragon hit dice gives you full BAB, all strong Saves, Sorcerer casting, size, special abilities, SR, etc.

Noteable exception is the Hidecarved Dragon PrC, which can theoretically be entered by PCs. It grants its class level as a bonus to Spell Resistance, +5 DR (which specifically improves existing DR), +6 Natural Armor, some energy resistance/immunity, and a few other minor perks. It also has full BAB, all strong Saves, d12 hit die, and 4 Skill points per level from an decent list. Only down side is that it requires the Dragon type, +20 natural armor, and +12 base Will Save. So basically a multi-class dragonwraught kobold Totemist/Incarnate/Forsaker (or something similar) with a template and a graft.

[corpusaant]

Animal Lords from Complete Adventurer, the fluff of which I love, but for some reason, they don't seem very effective. What do all of you think?

[grimbold]

personally i find the truenamer pretty cool

[Set]

I think that a big flaw in general with most prestige classes in general is that they have one schtick (which is often copied by several other classes or PrC) and everything else tends to be filled in with mundane abilities.

Definitely agree with this. The vast majority of PrCs would probably work better as feats or feat chains, instead of class progressions. If one of your 'class abilities' for a level is 'advances sneak attack' or 'advances spellcasting' then why the heck isn't that level just dropped entirely for a level in rogue or wizard? Too many PrCs with *maybe* three levels of unique abilities are milked out to ten levels long, with seven levels of 'stuff you were gonna get anyway.'

[SilverLeaf167]

Definitely agree with this. The vast majority of PrCs would probably work better as feats or feat chains, instead of class progressions. If one of your 'class abilities' for a level is 'advances sneak attack' or 'advances spellcasting' then why the heck isn't that level just dropped entirely for a level in rogue or wizard? Too many PrCs with *maybe* three levels of unique abilities are milked out to ten levels long, with seven levels of 'stuff you were gonna get anyway.'
If PrCs only had a few levels, granting the unique class abilities, you would be able to reach the capstone at a far too low level. Also, fluff AND practical purposes: if a rogue decided to focus on stealthy assassination for five levels (through the use of some PrC), why would his Sneak Attack damage not increase?

[Brom]

Occult Slayer. Gives you some slight boosts in damage and other abilities. But provides nothing in the way of actually reaching the wizard so you can kill him.

I always thought that you did it by reflecting the targeted dispel the wizard uses to suppress the mind blank so he can own you with a single failed will save.

Why is Dragon Disciple not on this list?

Come on. Going from sorcerer into a PRC that gives no casting progression, a bunch of melee related benefits, and a breath weapon ONCE per day?

I know it probably wasn't out at that time, but there's literally nothing I can think of that Sorc/Dragon Disciple does that Dragonfire Adept or Dragon Shaman doesn't do better.

[GoatBoy]

If I manage to persuade my DM to allow that, a warforged bard named "Heavy Metal" with Dirgesinger PrC would just be glorious. And I bet prestidigitation could do something about having an electric guitar... Or at least the appearance of such.

"I cast summon BFG"

[big teej]

I know it probably wasn't out at that time, but there's literally nothing I can think of that Sorc/Dragon Disciple does that Dragonfire Adept or Dragon Shaman doesn't do better.

if my group is any indication. "survive 2 sessions" would fall under that


(the dragon shaman was, ironically enough, killed by a dragon... in session 1)

[ScionoftheVoid]

Blighter, Master Transmogrifist, Vigilante (without the table spells/day, which I might, maybe, one day, use it for, possibly), Geomancer, Entropomancer and several others. Most have been mentioned already, honestly.

[Fearan]

PrCs from Planar Handbook. I'm a fan of good old Planescape, so it's rather dissapointing to see how faction PrC suck

[Dralnu]

I rather like Blood Magus. No, it's far from optimal because it requires two useless feats and loses 2 CL, but its got tons of great flavor and hardly "too weak." Seriously, is a wizard "too weak" if he loses 2CL and wastes 2 feats for a bunch of awesome fluff? If anything he gets slightly more balanced. And look at that capstone! WIN! I'd totally play one just for that capstone.

Similarly, people say blighter is "too weak" but a player in my game played one and was still kicking ass alongside ToB characters. Hardly weak either.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, the blood magus also costs a level to enter seeing as you must have been killed and restored to life.

[Dralnu]

Unfortunately, the blood magus also costs a level to enter seeing as you must have been killed and restored to life.

Yeah that's true. Your DM could potentially be a jerk about it, but I think if your death / resurrection was part of your backstory then most DMs wouldn't mind.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah that's true. Your DM could potentially be a jerk about it, but I think if your death / resurrection was part of your backstory then most DMs wouldn't mind.

Yeah, but by the book, if you die and get ressed at level 1 you permanently lose 2 con.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but by the book, if you die and get ressed at level 1 you permanently lose 2 con.

So start your character with 14 con and say he rolled 16 originally. :smalltongue:

Or die at 6 and have your party members cart you to town, then enter the class. XP is a river so you'll catch up eventually.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So start your character with 14 con and say he rolled 16 originally. :smalltongue:

Or die at 6 and have your party members cart you to town, then enter the class. XP is a river so you'll catch up eventually.

That works if your DM allows you to roll in private, but you're right. Xp is a river, so it does have less impact than it sounds like it does.

[Thurbane]

You should be able to use Revivify (SpC) to qualify:

Special: The character must have been killed, then returned to life.

Revivify miraculously restores life to a recently deceased creature.
---
This spell functions like raise dead (PH 268), except that the raised creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of spells.

[Angry Bob]

It's up to the DM, but I would allow it.

[Silus]

Tempest, just a compilation of feats...

I dunno...it's not bad if you're trying to make a Gun-Kata (with Hand XBows) build for a Fighter...

[Drakonzeta]

Seeing as I have never heard of 90% of these, I will list the ones I know of:

Arcane Archer (Only due to the fact that it squanders spellcasting)
Duelist: Why the...
Dwarven defender: Why not just be a barbarian?

[TheGeckoKing]

I always wanted to play an Archivist/Alienist that read maddening tomes and summoned Cthullu-ese spawn, but then I saw Alienist's class features and died a little.
Also, True Necromancer and Mystic Theruge. We both have base classes
(DN and Archivist) who do their job better. It's pathetic.