Analysis and critique- Swashbuckler/Psychic Warrior/Iajutsu Master

[SylvanPrincess]

NOTE: this thread has diverted from the original post conversation has turned to iajustu master and swashbuckler, and what would be good with them.

ive been wanting to try a duelist/swashbuckler for some time, and have been wondering what 3rd or even 4th class(es) could be added to it for optimizing or flavor reasons. here is a build i stumbled across (from xxAzureBladexx) that didnt have much feedback, so id like the playground to critiqe it, or offer alternatives

Here is my Swashbuckler. he is set up for a one-on-one fight with a decent AC before magic items and an excellent offense before Magic Items.

Human
Build
1. Swashbuckler 1
2. Swashbuckler 1/ Rogue 1
3. Swashbuckler 1/ Rogue 2
4. Swashbuckler 1/ Rogue 3
5. Swashbuckler 2/ Rogue 3
6. Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue 3
7. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3
8. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 1
9. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 2
10. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 3
11. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 4
12. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 5
13. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 6
14. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 7
15. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 8
16. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 9
17. Swashbuckler 4/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 10
18. Swashbuckler 5/ Rogue 3/ Duelist 10
19. Swashbuckler 5/ Rogue 4/ Duelist 10
20. Swashbuckler 6/ Rogue 4/ Duelist 10

BAB
+19/ +14/ +9/ +4

Feats
1st - Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse(Free)
3rd - Combat Expertise
6th - Daring Outlaw
9th - Einhander
12th - Elusive Target
15th - Quick Reconnoiter
16th - Deflect Arrows
18th - Deft Strike

Class Features
Grace +1
Insightful Strike
Dodge Bonus +2
Sneak Attack +5d6
trapfinding
Evasion
trap sense +1
Uncanny Dodge
Canny Defense
Improved Reaction +4
Enhanced Mobility
Grace
Precise Strike +2d6
Acrobatic Charge
Elaborate Parry

Books
Core Rules
Complete Warrior
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Adventurer

[Eldariel]

Are you certain you want Duelist in there? Because really, Duelist is just...bad. The best way to build a Duelist is to ignore the Precise Strike and go Two-Weapon Fighting; it actually ends up with you stronger offensively.

Just plain Rogue/Swashbuckler (your build, just take more Swashbuckler over Duelist) with Daring Outlaw is much, much better. Thing is, that's much better TWF than Einhander too.


The one thing that actually supports one-handed fighting is Tome of Battle and in particular, Swordsage. Any hope you'd have access to that? Particularly taking refluffed Kung-Fu Genius to get Int to AC over Wis in light armor would be very hot, making you actually hard to hit. And the Strikes give you damage regardless of your base damage, number of attacks, Power Attack or anything of the sort. You can make a very good Swashbuckler/Rogue/Swordsage as a Duelist.

[ffone]

Given Daring Outlaw you're probably better off with 10 more levels of Swash over Duelist. Swash and Duelist to have decent synergy (finesse weapons, uses for Int, and nearly identical flavor and class skill lists) but I've never really seem a large value in Duelist; unless it's a very high point buy campaign the Int bonus to AC is not likely to make up for the lack of +4 AC from a mithral chain shirt, and the other abilities don't seem especially compelling (esp. given you also have to sacrifice a hand).

[Hawk7915]

How would you feel about Duelist/Swashbuckler/Warblade? Maneuvers like Mountain Hammer or Rabid Wolf Strike make you much, much more capable as a damage dealer while still using just a 1-Handed weapon, and you get MOAR int synergy. If you get high enough for Ruby Nightmare Blade you could have a base rapier damage of 4d6+Strength+Int, and then double that.

[SylvanPrincess]

im trying to not use ToB with this character, the feeling is that its too different, and we have a player who is just starting, and another who hasnt played in awhile, so i want to keep it pretty simple.

i like the idea of dropping the duelist - i hadnt read you couldnt wear armor! -but i still feel i want a 3rd something in there, maybe something gishy like psion, wizard or beguiler-maybe duskblade?

[AstralFire]

If you wanna do one-handed weapon combat without ToB, grab a bastard sword and say that your character's strong enough to use it one-handed, but uses her off-hand to balance her florid motions.

[SurlySeraph]

Small dips in Duskblade don't do much, and a lot of Duskblade levels would dilute the Sneak Attack focus this has.
A level in Wizard with the Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer variant (lets you make teleport 10' as an immediate action a few times per day) would up your survivability, and you could then use wands of useful spells like Wraithstrike without needing to invest in Use Magic Device.
You could switch the build around a bit to go into a rogue-ish arcane caster PrC, probably Unseen Seer.
You might want to take the Arcane Stunt alternate class feature, from Complete Mage. It trades Grace for a SLA a certain number of times per day; taking Blur would be good for your sneak attack. Check with your DM if he'll let it replace Grace in the Daring Outlaw prerequisite, though.
Three levels in Factotum will give you some spellcasting, Int to all Str- and Dex-based skill and ability checks (including Initiative), and various other nice abilities.

[Grelna the Blue]

If you're trying to max out the Int bonus benefit and are using Duelist, maybe a dip into Factotum and Bladesinger (yes, I know Bladesinger is a completely crap class for casters, but melee-wise they do get to use Int for AC in a way that stacks with the Duelist Int-to-AC bonus).

[SylvanPrincess]

i like the bladesinger for 1 level dip, its decent. ive been thinking of making this character more of a 1 handed weapon samurai-type, but the katana is definitely not finessable.

another option i like for gish reasons is transmuter variants from UA.

[Greenish]

ive been thinking of making this character more of a 1 handed weapon samurai-type, but the katana is definitely not finessable.Oh ye of little faith! Iaijutsu Master gets weapon finesse that works on katanas on first level. Other goodies include int to AC while unarmoured and holding said sword, as well as cha as a bonus damage for each die of Iaijutsu Focus.

[SylvanPrincess]

you read my mind! i used iajutsu master once before and i loved it! i would love to gish it somehow though, thoughts? i need to go and look at the pre-reqs. blade dancer is a nice addition if memory serves. so, swashbuckler/?????/iajutsu master. sounds like a lot of fun!

its perfect storyline wise too, we have a samurai in our group, and the back story we created (when i originally wanted to do a samurai or ninja) was that the palace was attacked in the middle of a festival by ninja, and he and i realized it was a ruse to attack our lord. we got there and tried to save our lord but it was too lateand we both took wounds while trying to defend our lords body. he and i are then sent out (warriors from all over the world were called for) to form a coalition to determine why the world is dying, and go on a quest to fight the powers that be (industrialization, and the church has been commiting genocides to conform a new world order sort of).

now what i want is to amend in our story is that i am the lords only child (his son was killed in a battle months ago), i am a teenager who runs away to join the coalition and take vengeance on those who killed my father (who do not perchance happen to have 6 fingers on your left hand?), my friend the samurai discovers my identity and becomes my protector/adviser.

[Greenish]

you read my mind! i used iajutsu master once before and i loved it! i would love to gish it somehow though, thoughts? i need to go and look at the pre-reqs. blade dancer is a nice addition if memory serves. so, swashbuckler/?????/iajutsu master. sounds like a lot of fun!Meh, factotum with some judicious ToB dipping should work. You won't be brimming with magic, but you'll have some.

IM requires 6 BAB, 9 ranks in a skill and three feats.

[SylvanPrincess]

all i want is the ability to self buff. maybe psychic warrior would be good. give me a good hit die and some nice abilities. expansion is teh roxor

going to work, thanks for your help, feel free to post a build if you have one, ill be working on one in my head all day lol.

[Xiander]

I played a level 15 character with a Rouge/swashbuckler/duelist build.

It was briliantly fun. For selfbuffing, you can always go UMD, that worked wonders for me.

Depending on optimisation level, you might wanna tweak, but i did not find a need to.

[true_shinken]

Funny how we got from Swashbuckler/Duelist to Iaijutsu Master gish ^^
If you can't/don't want to dip Iaijutsu Master, feycrafted katanas are also finessable. They only deal 1d8 damage, though.
Swiftblade is a good gishy prc to follow Iaijutsu Master, because you get bonus feats from Iaijustu Master that could be used to take the feats needed for Swiftblade; it fits thematically as well. The fact that you gain Charisma x2 to initiative is just icing on the cake.
Trapsmith could help you in qualifying for Swiftblade, since it gets Haste at level 1. Also, Duskblades are arcane casters with lots of spell slots and full attacks - that plus Trapsmith + Versatile Spellcaster = haste always on.
So... Factotum 4/Duskblade 3/Trapsmith 2/Iaijutsu Master 2/Swiftblade 9. Bab +18, Charisma x2 to initiative, channels spells... only up to 3rd level spells, though (as Trapsmith 5 and Duskblade 6) but there's a lot of good buffs at this level.

Of course, if you can use a Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, your life will be much, much easier.
Mystic Ranger 6/Iaijutsu Master 4/Swiftblade 10. You need Versatile Spellcaster to use the Swiftblade's capstone - if your DM won't allow it, Iaijutsu Master 5/Swiftblade 9 gets Strike from the Void which is awesome in sword drawing form.

[Greenish]

Funny how we got from Swashbuckler/Duelist to Iaijutsu Master gish ^^So it goes. I remember starting to plan a kobold rogue and ending up with a goliath cleric. :smallcool:


If you can't/don't want to dip Iaijutsu Master, feycrafted katanas are also finessable. They only deal 1d8 damage, though.Sun Katana shouldn't be too big a stretch, either.

[true_shinken]

So it goes. I remember starting to plan a kobold rogue and ending up with a goliath cleric. :smallcool:
Sun Katana shouldn't be too big a stretch, either.
Sunblade x Feycrafted katana have the same stats, the first just costs a bit more but does not need a feat (well, if you have Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that is); the other requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
I'd go with Sunblade if I could, but I find DMG II to be a rather more common book than EtCR, though of course YMMV.
Oh, hell, I'd just dip Iaijutsu Master, that class is all shades of awesome in my book (this is the point where you all realize Shinken is syllabe swap of Kenshin and go 'ooooh, that's why')

[Greenish]

Sunblade x Feycrafted katana have the same stats, the first just costs a bit more but does not need a feat (well, if you have Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that is); the other requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
I'd go with Sunblade if I could, but I find DMG II to be a rather more common book than EtCR, though of course YMMV.Sunblade has higher durability (or was it hardness?) and d10 instead of d8 damage, not that it'd matter much. What you say about availability is true, though.

(this is the point where you all realize Shinken is syllabe swap of Kenshin and go 'ooooh, that's why')Maybe I'd go "ooooh" if I knew who Kenshin is. :smalltongue:

[true_shinken]

Sunblade has higher durability (or was it hardness?) and d10 instead of d8 damage, not that it'd matter much. What you say about availability is true, though.
Sunblade is d10? I must be low on caffeine. ^^

Maybe I'd go "ooooh" if I knew who Kenshin is. :smalltongue:

I (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawakami_Gensai) can't (http://www.mangakong.com/manga/mangas/Rurouni%20Kenshin/214%20-%20Enishi's%20Lapse/Rurouni%20Kenshin%20v24%20c214%20133.jpg) believe (http://sak2-2.tok2.com/home/toshizou/kawakami-gensai.jpg) you (http://www.mangakong.com/manga/mangas/Rurouni%20Kenshin/218%20-%20Madness%20Set%20Loose/Rurouni%20Kenshin%20v25%20000%20Cover.jpg) don't (http://blog.death-animes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Rurouni-Kenshin.jpg) know (http://www.mangareader.net/118/rurouni-kenshin.html) him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin)!

[SurlySeraph]

I (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawakami_Gensai) can't (http://www.mangakong.com/manga/mangas/Rurouni%20Kenshin/214%20-%20Enishi's%20Lapse/Rurouni%20Kenshin%20v24%20c214%20133.jpg) believe (http://sak2-2.tok2.com/home/toshizou/kawakami-gensai.jpg) you (http://www.mangakong.com/manga/mangas/Rurouni%20Kenshin/218%20-%20Madness%20Set%20Loose/Rurouni%20Kenshin%20v25%20000%20Cover.jpg) don't (http://blog.death-animes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Rurouni-Kenshin.jpg) know (http://www.mangareader.net/118/rurouni-kenshin.html) him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin)!

Also, there's an anime. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaTPXb3zHRo#t=8m22s)

[true_shinken]

Also, there's an anime. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaTPXb3zHRo#t=8m22s)

There is no such thing as an anime where Kenshin fights Shogo Amakusa, german knights, goes to the circus and all the minor characters suffer derailment every day! There is only Tsuoko Hen and that's all!
...though we are getting dangerously offtopic.

[Coidzor]

Did Iaijutsu Master receive an update in Dragon Mag with the rest of the Oriental Adventures stuff?

If so, is it worthwhile compared to the one published in OA?

[Greenish]

Sunblade is d10? I must be low on caffeine.It deals damage like a bastard sword.

[Coidzor]

It deals damage like a bastard sword.

And you can't power attack with it or feycraft weapons, right?

[true_shinken]

Did Iaijutsu Master receive an update in Dragon Mag with the rest of the Oriental Adventures stuff?

If so, is it worthwhile compared to the one published in OA?

Iaijutsu Master was not updated, no.

[Greenish]

And you can't power attack with it or feycraft weapons, right?I'm pretty sure you can PA with Sun Blade.

[true_shinken]

I'm pretty sure you can PA with Sun Blade.

Power Attack is fine with sunblades, not so fine with feycrafted weapons.
So if you have Expedition to Castle Ravenloft or you have all the gold required to buy the highly enchanted verion in the DMG, wield a Sunblade for great justice.

[SylvanPrincess]

lol :)

heres a question; does canny defense from iajutsu master stack with canny defense from duelist? if so, a dip (or more than a dip because they are both no-armor classes) into duelist might be nice. maybe even up to duelist 3. if i did psy warrior i think id want to go to level 4 or 5, and for iajutsu master, i would want all 10 levels i think.

[true_shinken]

lol :)

heres a question; does canny defense from iajutsu master stack with canny defense from duelist? if so, a dip (or more than a dip because they are both no-armor classes) into duelist might be nice. maybe even up to duelist 3. if i did psy warrior i think id want to go to level 4 or 5, and for iajutsu master, i would want all 10 levels i think.

Nope, abilities with the same name don't stack.
Sadly, Duelist is quite underpowered.

Also, one of these days I was discussing Iaijutsu Master with Greenish and we concluded that 10 levels were not worth it. See, a free surprise round is awesome, but how often do you begin combat at melee range? It's one ability that will hardly ever be triggered. Beyong 5th level, there is very little that Iaijutsu Master can offer, sadly.

[SylvanPrincess]

ok then, currently im considering samuai 2(oa)/swashbuckler 3/psy warrior 5/iajustu master 10. 18 BAB, int to dam with a katana, cha to initiative, cha to damage on each damage die with iajutsu focus, weapon finesse for katana, weapon finesse for wakizashi (swash) 3 bonus feats, and 2nd level powers, im thinking psionic lions charge (full attack on charge), and animal affinity (+4 to any stat). the level 1 abilities are useful too, like inertia armor, and the prescience ones. a psionic psamurai, that is almost jedi like. feats like up the walls help that. looks cool, just maybe want to slip a level of blade dancer in there for fast movement and acrobatics.


Also, one of these days I was discussing Iaijutsu Master with Greenish and we concluded that 10 levels were not worth it. See, a free surprise round is awesome, but how often do you begin combat at melee range? It's one ability that will hardly ever be triggered. Beyong 5th level, there is very little that Iaijutsu Master can offer, sadly.

well then, if i was to only take 5 levels of iajutsu master, then i could take more in psy warrior and swash. i think i would love acrobatic charge in tandem with up the walls and psionic lions charge.

oa samurai 2/swash 7/psy warrior 5/blade dancer 1/iajutsu master 5?
this is stretching it, as we are only supposed to use 2-3 base classes plus a prestige. i could maybe convince the dm to let me dip the 1 level of blade dancer using psionics to fit the spell casting req

[true_shinken]

18 BAB, int to dam with a katana, cha to initiative, cha to damage on each damage die with iajutsu focus, weapon finesse for katana, weapon finesse for wakizashi (swash)
On 3.5, you only need to take weapon finesse once and it applies to all weapons.

a psionic psamurai, that is almost jedi like
Beware of MAD. You need Strenght for damage, Dex for hitting/armor class, Con for hit points and Fort saves, Int for skills, canny defense and insightful strike, Wis for manifesting and Cha for iaijutsu.


well then, if i was to only take 5 levels of iajutsu master, then i could take more in psy warrior and swash. i think i would love acrobatic charge in tandem with up the walls and psionic lions charge.oa samurai 2/swash 7/psy warrior 5/blade dancer 1/iajutsu master 5?
this is stretching it, as we are only supposed to use 2-3 base classes plus a prestige. i could maybe convince the dm to let me dip the 1 level of blade dancer using psionics to fit the spell casting req
If you can get Blade Dancer house ruled in, that would be awesome.

[SylvanPrincess]

my numbers are quite decent at 18 18 16 14 11 9. we start off at level 5 so i get a +1 to something

[SylvanPrincess]

also, i know i said i was trying not to use tome of battle, but warblade fits perfectly with the int synergy (forget who mentioned this earlier in the thread, sorry). warblade/ swashbuckler/ iajutsu master/ blade dancer. is that sexy or what?

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/dragonlordmax/FemaleSamurai.jpg

[true_shinken]

also, i know i said i was trying not to use tome of battle, but warblade fits perfectly with the int synergy (forget who mentioned this earlier in the thread, sorry). warblade/ swashbuckler/ iajutsu master/ blade dancer. is that sexy or what?

It's pretty simple and pretty good.

[Coidzor]

Of course, if you can use a Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, your life will be much, much easier.
Mystic Ranger 6/Iaijutsu Master 4/Swiftblade 10. You need Versatile Spellcaster to use the Swiftblade's capstone - if your DM won't allow it, Iaijutsu Master 5/Swiftblade 9 gets Strike from the Void which is awesome in sword drawing form.

Actually, how do you get the necessary skillranks on a Mystic Ranger 6 to enter Iajutsu Master? Or was the idea more Mystic Ranger 6/Swiftblade 9 to qualify with cross-class ranks?


Re: Warblade, try to intersperse the warblade levels after as many other levels as possible to capitalize on the increased initiator level.

[SylvanPrincess]

edited mistake

[SylvanPrincess]

samurai/ warblade/ swashbuckler/ iajutsu master/ blade dancer.

first 7 levels. im working on the table some, but have had to keep leaving it

{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save| Special
1st|Samurai 1|+1|+2|+0|+2|Ancestral Daisho, [Improved Initiative]
2nd|Swashbuckler 1|+2|+4|+0|+2|Weapon Finesse
3rd|Swashbuckler 2|+3|+5|+0|+2| Grace +1, [Quick Draw]
4th|Swashbuckler 3|+4|+5|+1|+3|Insightful Strike, (ability point)
5th|Warblade 1|+5|+7|+1|+3|Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude
6th|Warblade 2|+6/+1|+8|+1|+3|Uncanny Dodge, [Weapon Focus: Katana]
7th|Iajutsu Master 1|+7/+2|+8|+3|+3|Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense
[/table]

[true_shinken]

Actually, how do you get the necessary skillranks on a Mystic Ranger 6 to enter Iajutsu Master? Or was the idea more Mystic Ranger 6/Swiftblade 9 to qualify with cross-class ranks?

Aereni Focus or Flexible Mind both work.