Discworld!

[Fri]

Wow. Never thought that this day would finally happen. The day when I, will finally be able to join, nay, start a thread about discworld.

Discworld felt like something unreachable for me back then. Like rainbows. Rainbows that spew unicorns. That breathe fire. Something that I know it's beautiful and awesome, but not something that I can actually touch. I can only watch from afar like a mirage. It's because it's hard to find discworld books here, and I don't do online purchasing (amazon doesn't serve my country anyway) and by god there's a lot of books.

But some of you guys might know already what happened in the last few months. I managed to find a bookstore where I can order practically anything, And in these last few months I have finally managed to complete my Night Watch collection (where up until Night Watch at least, and baring some mishaps, like how I accidentally ordered the theatrical adaptation of Jingo. I need to order that book again sometime...).

So... since the last Discworld discussion had fallen so far that if I post there it'd be necromancy, I guess I must start a new thread if I want to talk about this series.

Anyway... Now I got quite a few of discworld book. The Light Fantastic, the first two Tiffany Aching series, and the Nightwatch series up to the Night Watch. I guess you can guess what's my favourite part of the series yet?

Anyway, what are the next book I should get? I already ordered Small Gods (because everyone keep recommending it) and Going Postal (because the summary greatly intrigues me. Postal/delivery system is the second job that I have a weirdly romantic view for it after Journalism.) I guess I should get the discworld book about journalism next, I know there's one but I forgot the title. But still, what are your next recommendations?

And to talk about something in more specific, I just finished reading Night Watch about last week. My favourite nightwatch book turned out to be Men at Arms. I can see why a lot of people said that Night Watch is their favourite book, but I kinda feel that vimes turned out to be too much of a badass by The Fifth Elephant. I like him, he's cool, but, dunno, I just felt that he's turning too cool, that is badass, extremely political and street savvy, physically able fighter (That he can even fight werewolves), and such. The previous books kinda dilute his badassery because he shares the spotlight with other characters and I find it more entertaining, but in Night Watch he's the only focus character there.

And I just can't help but thinking to wanting to see how the actual John Keel would act there without all of Vimes' future knowledge and savviness, and how the real John Keel turned young Sam Vimes into what he is in the future. And the next, lesser fridge logic that I got while reading that novel is about how the Watch turned into a pathetic mess thirty years in the future. But I guess four days isn't enough to shake the watch for real and give it a real foundation. But my main thought about that book is just about how I really want to see what real John Keel looks like.

[AstralFire]

Agreed with most of your thoughts on Night Watch - it is my favorite Discworld book, but it is so because Vimes is the only real main character so there's no dilution and we get to see Pratchett at his best. But I feel like Carrot and the rest of the watch have kinda gotten the shaft in order to let Vimes show off - you're right, he's gotten really too perfect.

[zyborg]

I really enjoy the Discworld novels, and was surprised that there were no threads about it here. I enjoy the dark humor of the series, and the personalities of the characters seem more real than in 'regular' fantasy novels. Death, Samuel Vimes, Carrot Ironfoundersson, and Lord Vetinari are some of my favorite characters of all time. I was thinking about starting a statting thread for some of the characters, but I wouldn't do very well at that myself.

I actually started at The Light Fantastic, I think, and have random novels from the series. None of the libraries or stores where I live have even HEARD of Discworld, so it is hard to find them in my case. Thank the gods for the internet.

[Fri]

Amen brother. Same deal with bookstores and libraries here. I also got the light fantastic first from a used bookstore. I got 90% of my book randomly from a used bookstore now, and I was lucky to got it I guess.

next things I got are the tiffany aching series, but that's because they're actually translated here. That's because they're kinda stand alone and marketed as younger book I guess...

Then, I was extremely lucky to find Guards! Guards! at a bookstore, and that's what convinced me that Discworld is really up to all the hype and I actually need to get myself to the other books. The rest is history.

[BRC]

And to talk about something in more specific, I just finished reading Night Watch about last week. My favourite nightwatch book turned out to be Men at Arms. I can see why a lot of people said that Night Watch is their favourite book, but I kinda feel that vimes turned out to be too much of a badass by The Fifth Elephant. I like him, he's cool, but, dunno, I just felt that he's turning too cool, that is badass, extremely political and street savvy, physically able fighter (That he can even fight werewolves), and such. The previous books kinda dilute his badassery because he shares the spotlight with other characters and I find it more entertaining, but in Night Watch he's the only focus character there.

And I just can't help but thinking to wanting to see how the actual John Keel would act there without all of Vimes' future knowledge and savviness, and how the real John Keel turned young Sam Vimes into what he is in the future. And the next, lesser fridge logic that I got while reading that novel is about how the Watch turned into a pathetic mess thirty years in the future. But I guess four days isn't enough to shake the watch for real and give it a real foundation. But my main thought about that book is just about how I really want to see what real John Keel looks like.
To your first point, Vimes is a Badass yes. There is such a thing as "Too Badass" but it's more about how the badass manifests. If a character takes on twenty armed and armored men with his bare hands, he could be considered "too badass". If a character is able to position a single marble such that it sets off a chain reaction resulting in an empire collapsing and being replaced with a utopian democracy, he could be said to be "Too Badass".
Vimes works because he combines both physical and mental badassery. His physical badassery basically boils down to "Being really good". He pulls off some seriously awesome stuff, but it's almost always in one on one combat. His intelligence is more along the lines of cunning, rather than the author saying "And he was able to do it because he is REALLY SMART!". His logic in almost every case can be easily followed, by the time of Night Watch, he's basically a grizzled veteran who has spent his entire life dealing with difficult problems.
He's also an interesting character. According to something I read somewhere (Art of Discworld I think?) Carrot was supposed to be the protagonist of Guards Guards, it's just that Vimes was a much more interesting character for us to be inside his head.

As for your second point. The Night Watch didn't become incompetent over those four days. It was already an incompetent force of rejects, cowards, and bribe takers. The reason it's down to three people by Guards Guards is that it was so incompetent that it became more or less vestigial after the Thieve's Guild was legalized and most people just went to the guild offices to get robbed for a regular amount at the beginning of the year, with the guild itself handling most unlicensed theft.
As for John Keel, we never actually meet him. The way Vimes describes him, he was basically Vimes, only without the knowledge of what exactly was going to happen. Of course, there is the whole unreliable narrator aspect. Keel was Vimes's mentor and Hero, from the sounds of things he was the guy Vimes tried to model himself after. It's not hard to think that, by the time of Night Watch, there was almost no difference between Vimes and how Vimes imagined Keel would act. He would ask himself "What would John Keel do", and would think "Exactly what I would do!"

[zyborg]

After reading Jingo, I don't think that Vimes is too much of a (small town named after a poorly-behaved donkey). I mean, he KNOWS that the Assassin couldn't have been Klatchian because of the obvious evidence that someone was trying to frame a Klatchian. Oh, wait a minute.... He is not infallible. If he was, Night Watch wouldn't have happened. After all, Carcer has escaped him many times...

[Fri]

The problem is, Jingo is the one book that I don't have yet :smallsigh:

I wonder whether I should just read that damned theatrical adaptation.

[factotum]

If you have The Light Fantastic, why not The Colour of Magic?

[Sipex]

Some recommendations from me:

Try the Death series. Many would recommend Mort to start but since it's pratchett it doesn't really matter. I'd personally recommend The Hogfather as a first.

The journalism book you're thinking of is The Truth and it was my first discworld book. Amazing, really.

Another recommendation is a stand alone book called Monstrous Regime which has a few outside cameos.

Also, have you read Thud! ? It's part of the Nightwatch series and it is, personally, my favourite.

[zyborg]

I don't have the first book of the series, because I didn't get the majority of the books myself. They were Hogswatch presents.

[chiasaur11]

Gotta agree with the mob on the subject of Our Sam.

He's good. Damn good. One of the biggest badasses in good fiction.

But he's got limits. Every book shows them if you bother to look.

Night Watch, he gets taken down multiple times in hand to hand combat. Not even huge mobs, just fighting one more guy than he counted on did it fine.

Jingo, was mentioned already.

Fifth Elephant, he gets caught more than once.

And every book, he gets played. Who exactly is doing it changes, and he tends to catch on, but if you start running the numbers, he's playing someone else's game.

Of course, it's true, he does get more badass every book. Was a bit scary by the Fifth Elephant.

Been 2 books since then.

And yeah, DEATH is a great protagonist. Read Reaper Man.

[Maxios]

I love the Discworld books! I read the Thief of Time first, then read the Color of Magic, and will get the Light Fantastic and Interesting Times soon

[Fri]

Yeah, the point is that it's relative.

I mean, Sam Vimes, compared to protagonist in other fantasy fiction? A chump. He's not actually that good at fighting, or a genius, or anything. Not like he can outfight Aragorn or outsmart Zhuge Liang.

But in the discworld setting? Very high tier. High stats at everything whether it's mental (not necessarily intelligence), physical, or fate.

Anyway, I am thinking about getting a death book next. Which one do you recommend?

After that.. maybe one or two of the witches'?

[Eldan]

Actually... I think Vimes is mostly just a mean and intelligent fighter. For poor fighting strength, look at Carrot in Guards, Guards, where he knocks out Trolls.

And, well, I think Vimes is too badass to be too badass.

Not sure if that sentence made any sense to anyone but me.

[hamishspence]

Anyway, I am thinking about getting a death book next. Which one do you recommend?

I think Reaper Man is usually considered one of the best Death books overall.

[chiasaur11]

I think Reaper Man is usually considered one of the best Death books overall.

Yup.

Unfortunately, the B plot isn't as good.

Ah well.

Edit: And as for the Vimes chump compared to other fantasy heroes thing?

Read Thud some time. Geesh.

[Sinfonian]

Edit: And as for the Vimes chump compared to other fantasy heroes thing?

Read Thud some time. Geesh.

One of my favorite bits of dialogue from all of Pratchett's books is from that book:
Vetinari:"Given, then, a contest between an invisible and very powerful quasidemonic thing of pure vengeance on the one hand, and the commander on the other, where would you wager, say...one dollar?"
Secretary: "I wouldn't say, sir. That looks like one that would go to the judges."
Vetinari: [staring at the closed door] "Yes. Yes, indeed."

On another note, I just recently finished Reaper Man (via audiobook), and was unsurprised at the sheer awesome that is Death. Or should I say BILL DOOR?

[littlebottom]

shamelessly posting to the only thread where people will recognise the username reference! :smallcool:

anyway, my favorite series' from the books are the watch, and rincewind(wizards ones) largely just for rincewind and the luggage, but still :smalltongue: and the death ones (which add those 3 togeather and you get proberbly half of all discworld books:smallredface:)

as for recomendations of the series, i really enjoyed going postal, and making money, others disagree with me, but i think the book was excellent. (especially if you know your discworld background a little, and reading most of the watch books should give you a decent timeline of goings on around the ank-morpork)

other books from the series i would reccomend? there are sooo many, but i think you should pick up mort or infact, any of the death orientated ones, i do so enjoy those

[Helanna]

Anyway, I am thinking about getting a death book next. Which one do you recommend?

After that.. maybe one or two of the witches'?

I love Reaper Man, although I agree that the B plot . . . well, it's not so much that it's not good, so much as that I cared too much about the A plot to care about the B plot.

So it depends on whether you want to the best first or last. I read all of his most recent (and best) books first, so now when I read new ones they're not as good. They still are good, just not quite what I expect.

I need a few more Witch books myself. I really enjoyed Lords and Ladies and Witches Abroad. Though Carpe Jugulum was the book that got me into Discworld in the first place, so I hold a fondness for that one.

And Sam Vimes is one of my favorite characters ever. Along with Death and Carrot. New debate! Carrot: Nice, with flashes of insight, but ultimately simple, or genius mastermind playing a long but not unfriendly game with Vetinari?

My vote's that he started out as the first, developed into the second, but interestingly (and confusingly) enough is still maintaining the first at the same time.

[Ryuuk]

I really think a lot of Vimes charm comes from the reader seeing him grow. From a drunk that's in over his head in Guards! Guards! to the force he is now after Thud. He's one of the most influential people in Ankh Morpork now, able to argue with Vetinari and out of reach from the assassins, but we're perfectly fine with that since we saw him claw his way up. He deserves it.

Still Men at Arms climax is is probably my favorite moment in the series. Behind that, I think I'd put a few moments in Thud, Nightwatch and Mort.

EDIT: As far as Reaper Man goes, the B plot had its moments. Windle Poon was pretty cool and anything with the UU staff is great.

[littlebottom]

one of my favorite moments in the recent books is at the end of making money when the villain is surrounded by other "vetinari's" and they have a raise the eyebrow competition! i loled... i loled hard.

[Vonotar]

I think my favourite character has to be Rincewind and my favourite moment
When he takes on the Dungeon Dimensions with a sock full of sand or punching out Trymon

Or possibly "Can I have them mashed?"


But for a recommendation for a Death book I'd have to chime in with the others and say Reaper Man, or perhaps The Hogfather for a bit of a seasonal read.

[Tengu_temp]

It's hard to recommend Discworld books. On one hand, you really miss a lot of references to previous books, and sometimes even plot points, if you don't read them in more or less chronological order. On the other hand, the first few books really weren't anything special in comparison to what came later - they're not bad, but they're much worse than Pratchett's later works. Okay, most of his later works - Monstrous Regiment and Making Money come to mind as exceptions.

[tyckspoon]

And Sam Vimes is one of my favorite characters ever. Along with Death and Carrot. New debate! Carrot: Nice, with flashes of insight, but ultimately simple, or genius mastermind playing a long but not unfriendly game with Vetinari?

My vote's that he started out as the first, developed into the second, but interestingly (and confusingly) enough is still maintaining the first at the same time.

I think it's rather the point of Carrot that the second does not exclude the first. There's a few instances of lines to the effect of "Many people thought Carrot to be simple and straightforward. After encountering him, the smarter ones realized that wasn't the same as stupid."

[Rockbird]

like how I accidentally ordered the theatrical adaptation of Jingo.

That happened to me too. It was The Truth rather than Jingo though :smallsmile:.

I've noticed a trend with me reading discworld books. The endings always kinda blur together for me one the first readthrough, often I have a hard time grasping what the hell is going on. When i re-read them there's usually no problem... Maybe it's because there's so much high-paced awesome being thrown at you I can't keep up :smallamused:. Does that happen to anyone else?

[Eldan]

An aside:

The local bookshop recently sold a series of "Fantasy classics", huge books which usually collected a series of shorter novels or shortstories. I bought Amber, Conan and Lankhmar, neither of which I had read before.

And then I realized just how many similarities there were between the Lankhmar books and Colour of Magic and early Discworld in general. I mean, the Mouser and Fafhrd even make a cameo appearance. It's interesting...

[Thufir]

I mean, the Mouser and Fafhrd even make a cameo appearance. It's interesting...

No no no. The characters in TCoM are Bravd the Hublander and the Weasel. Totally different. :smallwink:
(Though I think, yes, they were inspired by Fafhrd and the Mouser. Pretty sure Sir Terry said as much at some point)

That is really a significant part of the difference between the first two books and the rest of them, IMO. The first two are much more imitating and parodying existing fantasy works, and it takes a few books for Terry to properly develop his own style.

[shadow_archmagi]

NOTE: I generally don't advertise this outside of the Steam Thread, but sometimes I show a movie over Livestream, for the benefit of my friends. There's a little window with the movie in it, and a little chatbox so you can discuss as you watch. It's like a regular movie night at my house, but, you know, with my internet buddies.

Having stumbled upon this thread at a most fortuitous time, I feel I should mention that the film adaption of Hogfather is scheduled for this friday at 4:30 PM EST at this link (http://www.livestream.com/shadow_archmagi)

[Sipex]

It's hard to recommend Discworld books. On one hand, you really miss a lot of references to previous books, and sometimes even plot points, if you don't read them in more or less chronological order. On the other hand, the first few books really weren't anything special in comparison to what came later - they're not bad, but they're much worse than Pratchett's later works. Okay, most of his later works - Monstrous Regiment and Making Money come to mind as exceptions.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

[Cheesegear]

Personally, my favourite Discworld novels don't deal with the Watch, but with the Witches. I don't know. I think that's just me though.

Granny Weatherwax can't be cut by swords because she's too busy to bleed right now. She'll bleed when she's good and ready. And she can 'Weatherwax' vampires.

[AstralFire]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

He's right.

[Sipex]

STAY OUT OF THIS!

[Wookieetank]

On the side of novel recommendations I highly suggest Pyramids and Thief of Time. Thief of Time was hilariously funny and Pyramids was pretty fun too. Both are more of side books than part of any of the series, which might be why they're two of my favorites, hmm...

[AstralFire]

I'm going to recommend Small Gods and Thief of Time myself, for similar reasons. Two of his best, and not in a series.

[Sipex]

I've not read Thief of Time yet, but I picked up Small Gods on recommendation from this forum and another a while ago and it was well worth it.

[Wookieetank]

I'm going to recommend Small Gods and Thief of Time myself, for similar reasons. Two of his best, and not in a series.

I own Small Gods, plan on reading it next actually, but I still have most of Stone of Tears left to read. Somewhere around 500 or so pages left, and way too many time consuming hobbies to boot :smalleek:

[Eldpollard]

Personally Thief of Time is my favourite of the series and I highly recommend it. But I'd start with the earlier Death ones first. Mort was the first Death book, and fourth overall so it's rougher than some of the later ones but still great.

Personally I didn't like the Unseen Academicals, but then again I'm not exactly the target audience for a football book. That said, I found the characters themselves to be very dull.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Personally I didn't like the Unseen Academicals, but then again I'm not exactly the target audience for a football book. That said, I found the characters themselves to be very dull.

I agree with you here, for the same reasons. In Canada, we don't have that same culture, so I feel a lot of jokes went over my head.

How many people have read Nation? I adooooored that book! And Mau is very cool, and has a pretty darn good Crowning Moment of Awesome.

[littlebottom]

on the subject of unseen academicals, i liked the book. admittedly, im not a football fan, and the book wasnt /brilliant/ but i found it was filled with plenty of moments that made me laugh nonetheless. then again that could be said about a lot of his books...

[AstralFire]

I agree with you here, for the same reasons. In Canada, we don't have that same culture, so I feel a lot of jokes went over my head.

How many people have read Nation? I adooooored that book! And Mau is very cool, and has a pretty darn good Crowning Moment of Awesome.

I felt this way about Soul Music. I finished that book and had no idea what I just read.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I felt this way about Soul Music. I finished that book and had no idea what I just read.

Yeah, the first time I read it. Now, when I read it, I get EVERY reference.
It was the same for Moving Pictures, in a way.

[Fjolnir]

I have a friend who has read all the current discworld novels save last hero and the YA stuff (wee free men, etc) he conciders Moving Pictures and Soul Music to be the worst of the bunch.

[cdstephens]

I'm still reading Men at Arms

(I'm a slow reader; DAMN YOU COLLEGE APPS)

[AstralFire]

Yeah, the first time I read it. Now, when I read it, I get EVERY reference.
It was the same for Moving Pictures, in a way.

I won't be bothering, personally. I hate most 60's rock music.

[Kato]

Well, since I'm finally almost done as well (still got Unseen Academicals to finish and get my hands on I shall Wear Midnight but otherwise...) I could contribute as well.

Honestly, I feel completely unable to pick any favourite books, there's just too much good stuff around. There are a few books I like slightly less but that's just personal taste. (e.g. Nightwatch is written on a top level but Vimes being the sole character getting any real focus is kind of disappointing (even though I like him) I like the Watch books because of the multitude of characters not only for Vimes)

It doesn't really matter which series even (though, I think the Witches books being replaced by the Tiffany series isn't too bad (nothing against Magrat or Agnes but Nanny and Granny are just more fun) Death... Death could get another book with some major screen time. He didn't do a lot in most of the last books. (Was he even in... oh, yeah, he was in Making Money. I forgot. Still, not enough Death.)

If I really had to pick a favourite... I think I'd go for a standalone, just because. Small Gods or Monstrous Regiment. But that's just me.

[Dakeyras]

Well its the witches book as favourite for me, and the evolution of Weatherwax as a charactered. She properly the most powerful protagonist, yet refuses to use it most of the time, then there her little speech to lilly in witches abroad where she tells her sister how evil she could/ would be but cos she left she had to be the good one.

[Ceric]

My absolute favorites, in no particular order, are Night Watch, Going Postal, Reaper Man, Jingo, and Hogfather. I also liked Small Gods, Pyramids, and Thud!. Hey, it's Discworld, I've got a lot of favorites :smallbiggrin: In some of the books that I disliked, I'll like the big ideas behind the book but the characters or story just won't click for me. Such as the Tiffany books - the Wee Free Men are great and headology is a really cool concept, but I don't like Tiffany >>

[Thufir]

Personally I didn't like the Unseen Academicals, but then again I'm not exactly the target audience for a football book. That said, I found the characters themselves to be very dull.

How many times do I have to use this quote? "The thing about football... the important thing about football... is that it is not just about football." Much of the book related to football, but it was by no means a 'football book'. I hate football, by and large, but I loved Unseen Academicals, partly because it satirises some of the things about the British football culture which I find to be really stupid.


I agree with you here, for the same reasons. In Canada, we don't have that same culture, so I feel a lot of jokes went over my head.

This, on the other hand, is a valid issue to have with the book, because it is very firmly grounded in the British football culture which does not, afaik, exist elsewhere.


How many people have read Nation? I adooooored that book! And Mau is very cool, and has a pretty darn good Crowning Moment of Awesome.

Possibly my favourite ever Pratchett book.

[KenderWizard]

Reaper Man was my first Discworld book (my first Pratchett was the Bromeliad trilogy), and my favourite characters are Vetinari, Death, Susan and Vimes. And I also love the Nanny and Granny double act!

The only Tiffany book I've read is Wintersmith, and I quite liked it, but I don't really like the Nac Mac Feegle.

The last one I read (I'm reading them out of order, and spaced far apart, to make them last longer, because I read really fast!) was The Truth, and I really enjoyed it.

But I couldn't choose a favourite. Or even a bunch of favourites.

[Eldpollard]

How many times do I have to use this quote? "The thing about football... the important thing about football... is that it is not just about football." Much of the book related to football, but it was by no means a 'football book'. I hate football, by and large, but I loved Unseen Academicals, partly because it satirises some of the things about the British football culture which I find to be really stupid.

I agree, I thought that was cleverly done. But I just didn't find the characters interesting. And the events were entirely inconsequential. The disc, or even Ankh Morpork would have been exactly the same whether the contents happened or not. I'm not saying it's a bad book by any means, just my least favourite discworld book.

[Fjolnir]

I am slightly annoyed since the only pratchett novel they have at my local public library is nation...

[zyborg]

I am slightly annoyed since the only pratchett novel they have at my local public library is nation...

I am more than slightly annoyed that the only Pratchett novel they have at my local public library is whatever one I bring in from home, so I know how you feel. None of the librarians around even know who he is.

[chiasaur11]

I am slightly annoyed since the only pratchett novel they have at my local public library is nation...

Hey, if I could only read one Pterry novel, Nation isn't a bad one to have.

Ever read it?

[Wargor]

People might disagree but I've got a lot of love for Monstrous Regiment. Don't know why but I loves it. I'll agree a lot of the later stuff is a bit...off, but that's understandable really. If only I didn't have so many books to read I'd do a proper re-read of them all. I'll divide them into their sub-series' and read them all one by one :smallbiggrin:. It may happen one-day...

[Thufir]

Hey, if I could only read one Pterry novel, Nation isn't a bad one to have.

True. But you could read upwards of one Pterry novel!

[chiasaur11]

True. But you could read upwards of one Pterry novel!

True.

Man. More than one Pterry book. What a wonderful world.

[Corvus]

Discworld is one of my favourite series ever. I prefer the books that he wrote in the middle - the earlier ones he hadn't quite hit his stride and the latter ones seem to me to have a bit of a different feel to them that for me just don't quite work as well.

Favourite characters are Vimes, Death and Detritus. Yeah, I'm a big fan of Sergeant Detritus.

The Watch series is great, as well as any appearance by Death. Hogswatch has to be read every year in December.

I'm not actually much of a fan of the Witches series, though I know plenty of people love them.

[Ceric]

Hogswatch has to be read every year in December.

Oh yes. Just did, in fact. :smallbiggrin:

[endoperez]

Terry Pratchett’s Mort To Become A Disney Animation? (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/10/28/terry-pratchetts-mort-to-become-a-disney-animation/)

:eek::biggrin::biggrin:

Blue Sky Disney (http://blueskydisney.blogspot.com/search?q=mort) blog, 4, tells us:
First off, patience should be expected as it's very early in development. They've just recently secured the rights to it so there hasn't been a lot done. These films take about three years to churn out so it'll be at least that long before you see it. That means 2013 at the earliest. And for my opinion, it won't be out then. More likely it'll be 2014.


But is it true, ask our reporters? Mr Blue Sky Disney, 4, continues:
Yes, kinda. I will say that the film does take place in the Discworld series which is where the Mort book (fourth in the line of books, btw) takes place, but remember that this is an adaptation that won't necessarily be literal (no film adaptation really is). I got confirmation from the Bothans of this. The hero of the book shows that this is an entirely different kind of story than Walt Disney Animation Studio has told before, but it does have a princess in it. Remember that this is early in the process and things can change.
...
So now you know what the next hand drawn is, but you still don't know how different it really is...

[factotum]

So long as they get Christopher Lee to do the voice of Death I'm with them all the way! :smallsmile:

[Aidan305]

I'm vaguely surprised. Last time someone wanted to make Mort into a film the studio execs said "It's looks good, but let's lose the death aspect."

[Wookieetank]

I'm vaguely surprised. Last time someone wanted to make Mort into a film the studio execs said "It's looks good, but let's lose the death aspect."

:smalleek: How?

[Eldpollard]

:smalleek: How?
My guess would be, a guy changes time to save a princess. Hijinks ensue.

[Wargor]

My guess would be, a guy changes time to save a princess. Hijinks ensue.

If only I had access to an Exterminatus stamp of approval right about now...

[MoonCat]

I know this thread is old, (not six weeks, though, right?) but does anyone have suggestions for books to read for a beginner? I've read nearly every book, and am trying to get my dad onto them. I'd like to give him a good example, so I've been avoiding the first few due to their inconsistencies with the majority of the books, as well as Pterry's prime coming just after the first few (in my opinion). This give a some problems with finding the books that aren't deeply involved with characters that you need to read every book linearly (Sam Vimes, DEATH, Tiffany Aching...) until he gets hooked enough to commit to books with more than flashy titles. I'm considering Monstrous Regiment as a starter (no connections, one of the funnier, but meaningful ones with a good speed) for him, any other suggestions?

[Demonweave]

Firstly I wanna say glad I found this thread, I am a huge fan of the Discworld books.

The stuff I like and recommend:
1)the Death series.
2)the Witches series.
(and the Nightwatch series but realise you're working on those)

The recurring characters with the biggest personalities really do bring the Discworld to life.

Well thats my 2 cents. Have fun reading.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I know this thread is old, (not six weeks, though, right?) but does anyone have suggestions for books to read for a beginner? I've read nearly every book, and am trying to get my dad onto them. I'd like to give him a good example, so I've been avoiding the first few due to their inconsistencies with the majority of the books, as well as Pterry's prime coming just after the first few (in my opinion). This give a some problems with finding the books that aren't deeply involved with characters that you need to read every book linearly (Sam Vimes, DEATH, Tiffany Aching...) until he gets hooked enough to commit to books with more than flashy titles. I'm considering Monstrous Regiment as a starter (no connections, one of the funnier, but meaningful ones with a good speed) for him, any other suggestions?

I ALWAYS say go for Small Gods first.

[BiblioRook]

I've always been ig on actually starting from the begining, always.
But considering that Discworld isn't so much as one big series as it is half a dozen smaller series, it's really easy to just jump in to one of those instead rather then going along on a (still increasingly enjoyable) ride from one series to another in no seemingly reliant pattern.

On this most usually suggest with the City Watch series (Guards! Guards!), which I have to say is pretty advisable for people completely new to Discworld. Not only are the Watch books probably among my favorites (just by a hair), but since they take place in the city that is basically in the center of everything else they actually do a better job of fleshing out the world of Discword more then any of the other books, particularly when it comes to races as racism and other social issues are often a reoccurring element in the Guard books.

[MoonCat]

Currently he's somewhat daunted by the idea of even starting a series, so I'm avoiding ones that'll make him think he needs to read all of them

[Demonweave]

That's the beauty though. If he reads the first one in a series it will make sense on it's own. If he doesn't like it, theres no reason to read the next one. They are still a complete story on their own.

[BiblioRook]

Right, DIscworld is pretty great like that. Technically you can pick up any random book, even one in the middle of a series (Light Fantastic being an exception), and it would basically be completely self contained. In some cases you might lose a bit of character background, but not hing that would make it hard to fallow what's going on.

If you are looking for stand alone books, some of the later ones also dealing with city stuff are also pretty nice. Going Postal was actually the first Discworld book I read personally (it was the only one my library had), though I guess depending how you look at it that book is basically part of yet another new branch of series too.

[Kato]

Well, MoonCat, since you read the books, don't you think you have a good enough impression yourself, also knowing your dad and stuff? :smallconfused:
Anyway, yeah, I'd go for a standalone like Monstrous Regiment, Small Gods, The Truth or Pyramids. I like all of them a lot, so it's up to you/him I guess.
I'd actually not recommend a middle-series book. Their not horrible but starting with Thud in the Watch series or even Nightwatch (Okay, maybe not so much Nightwatch, but still) is really not as good as when you have read the others. Witches work a bit better, but I'd still rather pick an early or less connected book, e.g. Reaper Man or Thief of Time if you want a first.
If I was to decide... I don't know, honestly. I like the wizards but they often build upon previous stories. I think I'd say Reaper Man... It's a nice starting point for Death's later development, I guess.

[zyphyr]

I know this thread is old, (not six weeks, though, right?) but does anyone have suggestions for books to read for a beginner? I've read nearly every book, and am trying to get my dad onto them.

For convenience, here is a 'map' of the connections in the series.

http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the-discworld-reading-order-guide-20.jpg

I would pick the start of a set that is likely to conform to any established reading habits he may have.

[Kane]

Night Watch was the best book in the whole series, if you aren't looking for anything in particular.

Unseen Academicals was better only if you've read all the books involving Anhk-Morpork. (Wizards, DeWorde, Lipwig, Watch, etc.) I loved the way it brought everything together, with all the people you know appearing in the background. (Also, the villainous Dean, and the ending, were fantastic.)


Personally, I find that the earlier books were nearly as good as the more recent ones. Light Fantastic, the Sourcerer, Witches Abroad, and Men at Arms were all excellent, but they didn't take themselves quite as seriously as the more recent ones have. (After all, these days he's world-famous, millions of copies printed, and a social commentator too. Moreso than he was. Shut up.)

[Fri]

Finally, after how many decades again? Discworld is finally officially translated in my country.

It starts with the color of magic, so will need to wait some time until it got the cooler parts though :smallbiggrin:

I already have it, but I'd like to buy it again anyway to see how they translated pterry's humour.

[Demonweave]

It starts with the color of magic, so will need to wait some time until it got the cooler parts though :smallbiggrin:

I already have it, but I'd like to buy it again anyway to see how they translated pterry's humour.

Actually it would be interesting to see house the humour translates. Surely alot of if would get lost (as quite alot of it is a play on words)

[rakkoon]

It all depends on the quality of the translator. Some jokes need to be adapted to the language, some jokes need to dropped. I've never read any Russian novels in the original language but like the translations

[Sipex]

My wife and I have been watching through the Discworld movies which were created and next on the list is the most recent: Going Postal.

We watched Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic and it was okay but a lot was changed. I wasn't too fond of the books though so it makes sense that this wouldn't be very engaging for me either.

We've also watched the cartoon series for Witches Abroad (we're not very big witches fans so this petered off) and Soul Music (it was okay. We watched it through and it was VERY accurate to the book but it left something to be desired).

Then we watched Hogfather. It wasn't 100% accurate but I enjoyed it quite a bit, it did a very good job on translating Terry's humour to screen.

[Eldan]

Actually it would be interesting to see house the humour translates. Surely alot of if would get lost (as quite alot of it is a play on words)

I can tell that at least for the first half of the series (which was the part I didn't read in English), the German translation was terrible. I still had fun with the books. But every second page or so, there was a sentence that just made no sense. Now that a friend gave me the audiobooks, I finally noticed something:

Those were puns. Puns the translator couldn't do in German and so just translated word for word, literally. Half the book titles were also done that way. The other half were puns, but didn't have anything to do with what the book was about.

Also, they didn't even try to make any of the names sound good.

Edit: on Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic: those two books, as opposed to the later ones, are much more straight parodies than their own stories. Really. I recently read some classic Sword and Sorcery Fantasy (Conan, Lankhmar and so on), and it's just about the same thing. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser have a guest appearance, so does Conan, and many of the adventures Rincewind has are more or less directly taken out of older books. Ankh-Morpork is basically Lankhmar in the first books, with a different name.

[Manga Shoggoth]

My wife and I have been watching through the Discworld movies which were created and next on the list is the most recent: Going Postal.

We watched Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic and it was okay but a lot was changed. I wasn't too fond of the books though so it makes sense that this wouldn't be very engaging for me either.

We've also watched the cartoon series for Witches Abroad (we're not very big witches fans so this petered off) and Soul Music (it was okay. We watched it through and it was VERY accurate to the book but it left something to be desired).

Then we watched Hogfather. It wasn't 100% accurate but I enjoyed it quite a bit, it did a very good job on translating Terry's humour to screen.

Going Postal is not a very close adaptation either, but was very enjoyable, none the less. It still has a very "Pratchett" feel to it - especially one of the closing scenes...

[Thufir]

We've also watched the cartoon series for Witches Abroad

Pretty sure you mean Wyrd Sisters.


on Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic: those two books, as opposed to the later ones, are much more straight parodies than their own stories. Really. I recently read some classic Sword and Sorcery Fantasy (Conan, Lankhmar and so on), and it's just about the same thing. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser have a guest appearance, so does Conan,

No. They don't. :smallmad:
There are characters in those two books who are, in some ways based on or parodying those characters, but they are NOT the same characters. :smallmad:

[Demonweave]

No. They don't. :smallmad:
There are characters in those two books who are, in some ways based on or parodying those characters, but they are NOT the same characters. :smallmad:[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more.

[Kato]

No. They don't. :smallmad:
There are characters in those two books who are, in some ways based on or parodying those characters, but they are NOT the same characters. :smallmad:

Wow, calm down. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way. No reason for all the bolds and stuff...


On the German books mentioned: I started with the German books, read... half a dozen or so. The were not bad but really, the original is just way better. Not only the puns don't work in German but it just feels so wrong translating Vimes to Mumm. It... might be a translation (and it might be okay with Moist who is much more troubled by his ridiculous name) but it just sounds pathetic to me. Maybe I'm wrong or Vimes sounds much less stupid to a native English than to me... Really, I'd rather have them make translators notes and stick with the original, but meh.
The titles are another matter... Some are fine but some really are... I don't know. How do you turn 'Interesting Times' into 'Echt zauberhaft' (roughly 'Really magical/enchanting/marvelous' (zauberhaft can be read in various ways) Heck, it makes you want to re-translate the whole series.

[Sinfonian]

On the German books mentioned: I started with the German books, read... half a dozen or so. The were not bad but really, the original is just way better. Not only the puns don't work in German but it just feels so wrong translating Vimes to Mumm. It... might be a translation (and it might be okay with Moist who is much more troubled by his ridiculous name) but it just sounds pathetic to me. Maybe I'm wrong or Vimes sounds much less stupid to a native English than to me... Really, I'd rather have them make translators notes and stick with the original, but meh.
The titles are another matter... Some are fine but some really are... I don't know. How do you turn 'Interesting Times' into 'Echt zauberhaft' (roughly 'Really magical/enchanting/marvelous' (zauberhaft can be read in various ways) Heck, it makes you want to re-translate the whole series.
Going off-topic, but related to this:

This is out of pure ignorance that I'm asking this. I've heard many complaints about the translations of many different things into German; that they are far inferior in enjoyability to the original language. I understand that's the case with reading almost anything translated, but I've never heard as many people have serious issues as consistently as I have with German. As I understand it, German with its complex compound words, is a very precise language for saying what you mean. I would think that'd mean it would be good at relating proper nuance. Why is it that there are so many bad translations? Bad translators?

More on-topic, I've recently gone on a very large Pratchett binge. In the past 2 and a half weeks I've gone through: Equal Rites (meh), Wyrd Sisters (did not care for), Lords and Ladies (okay), Carpe Jugulum (good), Going Postal (very good, and the film was a mostly decent adaptation), and Making Money (good).

As you might be able to tell, I really didn't care as much for the Witches books near as much as I do for the Watch or Death books. The Lipwig books were much more enjoyable, in part because they demonstrate a very good grasp of how people really work. In hindsight, so does the "headology" from the Witches, but in a much less interesting way. Either way, a lower quality Pratchett book is still a good book. (That said, I can't force myself to care about the wizards).

I still don't know what to think about Small Gods, which I read quite some time ago. I don't know why I can't make up my mind about the book, but something seems to not sit quite right about it in my head. I personally wouldn't recommend it as a starting book for someone just getting into Discworld.

[chiasaur11]

Going off-topic, but related to this:

This is out of pure ignorance that I'm asking this. I've heard many complaints about the translations of many different things into German; that they are far inferior in enjoyability to the original language. I understand that's the case with reading almost anything translated, but I've never heard as many people have serious issues as consistently as I have with German. As I understand it, German with its complex compound words, is a very precise language for saying what you mean. I would think that'd mean it would be good at relating proper nuance. Why is it that there are so many bad translations? Bad translators?

More on-topic, I've recently gone on a very large Pratchett binge. In the past 2 and a half weeks I've gone through: Equal Rites (meh), Wyrd Sisters (did not care for), Lords and Ladies (okay), Carpe Jugulum (good), Going Postal (very good, and the film was a mostly decent adaptation), and Making Money (good).

As you might be able to tell, I really didn't care as much for the Witches books near as much as I do for the Watch or Death books. The Lipwig books were much more enjoyable, in part because they demonstrate a very good grasp of how people really work. In hindsight, so does the "headology" from the Witches, but in a much less interesting way. Either way, a lower quality Pratchett book is still a good book. (That said, I can't force myself to care about the wizards).

I still don't know what to think about Small Gods, which I read quite some time ago. I don't know why I can't make up my mind about the book, but something seems to not sit quite right about it in my head. I personally wouldn't recommend it as a starting book for someone just getting into Discworld.

German the problem is probably the precision itself, at least for discworld books.

Precision means less room for puns, plays on words, double meanings, all that fun.

[Eldan]

To expand on that a little: in English, the same word, spelt the same way ,can be a noun, adjective or verb, as well as have any number of cases. In German, a verb is clearly different from a noun is clearly different from an adjective, and with very clear declination and conjugation, it's also very clear which word refers to which other word, how and why. Which kills a lot of punning potential.
Also, and this was the case in some early discworld books, sometimes a pun just doesn't work in a different language. If it depends on a word having two meaning, as an example. These are basically impossible to translate, you either have to leave them out or find a new pun that works, which can get complicated. The translator sometimes took a third option: translate it literally, even if it doesn't make sense.

[Kato]

Going off-topic, but related to this:

This is out of pure ignorance that I'm asking this. I've heard many complaints about the translations of many different things into German; that they are far inferior in enjoyability to the original language. I understand that's the case with reading almost anything translated, but I've never heard as many people have serious issues as consistently as I have with German. As I understand it, German with its complex compound words, is a very precise language for saying what you mean. I would think that'd mean it would be good at relating proper nuance. Why is it that there are so many bad translations? Bad translators?

Eldan described it pretty well... There are possible puns in German but there are just much fewer than in English and English ones don't translate, or very rarely. Maybe sometimes there would have been a chance but the translators missed it/didn't care. I'm not really blaming them for this, but I blame them if the make ridiculous translations or even change the meaning of sentences. It happens rarely but it happens. But with Pratchett's writing there is still a lot to be amused about.



...Going Postal (very good, and the film was a mostly decent adaptation)...

BLASPHEMY!
No, sorry, but the movie might have been a decent movie, but as an adaption it was poor. There were things in the book they could not do in the movie but there was way too much they changed for no reason. (me always imagining golems differently aside) They really did a bad job with the movie, imho, and I don't see why did they did a lot of the changes.



I still don't know what to think about Small Gods, which I read quite some time ago. I don't know why I can't make up my mind about the book, but something seems to not sit quite right about it in my head. I personally wouldn't recommend it as a starting book for someone just getting into Discworld.
Hm... I guess depending on your view of the world, I guess your opinion on Small Gods can differ. As an introduction to Discworld... I guess it's not perfect but as an introduction to Pratchett's philosophy in a nutshell it might be one of the best.

[MoonCat]

Update! My dad apparently only wants to read Kindle books nowadays, and since I can't afford to rebuy every book I want him to read, I'm going to have to leave him alone. Next time he surfaces from technology, with information from what he liked from the two Pterry books he read (on Kindle), I will give him either Small Gods, Monstrous Regiment, or possibly Reaper Man. Thanks for the help! The two books on the Kindle were probably the worst books for a beginner to start on, Thud!, and Wintersmith. :smallsigh: And he had never read a Pterry book before. :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

[Kiroth6]

Just finished I Shall Wear Midnight and I'm pretty pleased with the ending of the Tiffany Aching series. It is most definitely a Witches book.

[MoonCat]

That was the final book?!? Why no spoiler tags?

[mucat]

Does anyone have suggestions for books to read for a beginner? I've read nearly every book, and am trying to get my dad onto them. I'd like to give him a good example, so I've been avoiding the first few due to their inconsistencies with the majority of the books, as well as Pterry's prime coming just after the first few (in my opinion). This give a some problems with finding the books that aren't deeply involved with characters that you need to read every book linearly (Sam Vimes, DEATH, Tiffany Aching...) until he gets hooked enough to commit to books with more than flashy titles.

I would get him to start with one of the stronger books from one of the "major" series. Then if he likes it, he can find more books with the same characters and themes, rather than being overwhelmed by the sheer number of Discworld books.

The witches are fun. If he likes Shakespeare, start him with Wyrd Sisters.
If he likes classic fairy tales, Witches Abroad is perfect.

If he likes cop/detctive stories, go with a Watch book. The early ones -- Guards, Guards or Men at Arms -- are great starting points; unlike some of the other series, Prachett had definitely found his voice before he started this one. (I wouldn't recommend starting the Witch books with Equal Rites, or the Death books with Mort. They're good books, but they aren't reliable indicators of whether the reader will like Pratchett.)

For the Death books, I would start with Reaper Man. (Or Soul Music if he's both a big classic rock fan, and enjoys spotting clever references.)

Small Gods is among my favorites, but again I wouldn't recommend it as a first Discworld book. It's more philosophical, not as relentlessly funny, and I think part of the reason I enjoyed it was that I'd already read enough Pratchett to be confident that the story was going somewhere good.



I'm considering Monstrous Regiment as a starter (no connections, one of the funnier, but meaningful ones with a good speed) for him, any other suggestions?

To me, Monstrous Regiment is one of Pratchett's weakest books. It started well, but he really pounds the central joke into the ground until the "surprising" revelations become predictable, and the main protagonist is pretty lackluster.

Not to say I regretted reading it -- "not great for Pratchett" is still pretty damned good -- but it's probably the only Discworld book I never felt compelled to re-read. And even though the story ended on a cliffhanger of sorts, I never find myself wondering "What did Polly do next?" (I'm more curious about the further adventures of Jackrum, Lofty and Tonker, and even Blouse, than about the actual protagonist.)

[Sinfonian]

(I'm more curious about the further adventures of Jackrum...)
I agree with most of your feeling about the book, especially that the stuff that was supposed to be interesting or surprising was just predictable. Your comment reminded me that I realized halfway through the book that I would have preferred to be reading about Jackrum's story. I could have read an entire book on Jackrum's past.

Edit: Regarding my comments on the Going Postal adaptation, I should probably have specified that my expectations for any movie taken from a book are much lower than I have for other films. The derailment of the Dearheart character was especially bad, but I take what I can get out of such adaptations.

[MoonCat]

WhenMaladicta revealed herself as a girl I got very annoyed. The trope had had a use in the story up until then. But that was just a random switchover to me. I shall remove M.R. from his list until he gets a good grip on Pterry's writing (If he read it now, I'd be afraid he'd just give up on the series). To replace it, I'm thinking Going Postal.

[Fjolnir]

Well the idea is that the protagonist is the new jackrum, making every other character's story more up in the air and interesting.

[MoonCat]

Well yes, but Maladict's revelation didn't do anything with the plot. He would have acted just the same anyway. It was just a last second change, unlike every other character, who's gender and acting made a difference.

[Kato]

Well, the way I see it, MR was not only about Sweet Polly Oliver. Yeah, it was a lot about it and your lineage may vary on whether he overstretched it or did a good job exaggerating the trope ad absurdum.
But the thing is, the book is not only about it. It's also about a country which is ina horrible state due to clinging to traditions/religion, about believe and Pterry's only military novel so far about... well, soldiering. Of yourse opinions can differ on how well this was done but reducing it to 'it was bad because of *spoiler* doesn't give credit to the book, imo.

[SuperPanda]

First up: Going Postal is a great book. I started with The Truth and then went back to read Mort and then went back again to read everything in the order published.

The Truth is one of those books that will either make you fall in love with the setting and world or won't work for you. I've seen both reactions.

Guards Guards, Small Gods, Reaper Man, Going Postal, and Witches Abroad are all wonderful starting books.

Night Watch was absolutely amazing. It carries more punch if you've a good understanding of who Sam Vimes is going into it, but its was absolutely amazing. I also loved Thief of Time and Interesting Times. You don't need to have read Colour of Magic / Light Fantastic (watch the movie, Pratchett himself said he knew what he was doing when he helped with the movie but not when he wrote the book). You don't need to have read Sourcery (but its a fun read all the same). You don't need to heave read Eric (though it doesn't take long). Interesting Times is a hilarious introduction to Rincewind and gets followed by The Last Continent which is another hilarious Rincewind story. I don't actually like the character Rincewind in comparison to Pratchett's other protagonists, but I love those books.

Now, on the movies:

The Hogfather: The first live action to screen adaptation does pretty well. Yes, plenty of details are changed, omitted, or edited down from the book to fit the screen. Yes it isn't as good, but it works pretty well. I highly recomend it as something fun and different (so long as you can accept that the effects budget is not hollywood or even recent American TV).

The Colour of Magic: Its different from the books and some details just felt wrong to me. Twoflower wasn't discworldian asian like he is described in the book, Veteneri has a slight lisp which bothered me to no end, and Rincewind was too old. Once you get over those very minor details though it is a masterfully crafted piece of fun and extremely well acted. Pratchett comes out and says that he was just mucking about when he wrote Colour of Magic and so when making the movie he had to be careful not to change too much. I think he struck a good balance and the result is a movie adapatation stronger than the book(s) it came from.

Going Postal: Lots and lots of differences between the movie and the book. The movie is the same overall story told in a different medium and using a different frame. The characters have different histories and roles in the film and in the book, but the important thing for me is that their spirit carries through it wonderfully.

Stanly is perfect, he even leans slightly towards the sun most of the time, a detail from the book they don't mention in the movie. Groat is amazing. You should have seen it sir! is delivered with such soul that when I reread the book his voice replaced my thoughts for his dialogue.

Moist is played well, I wasn't sold right away but he grew on me.

Adora's role got changed quite a bit for the film adaptation, but the character of Miss Dearheart struck a perfect balance between the character from the book and the one in the film. I think she was done masterfully.

The best of all of them though was Vetenari. I absolutely love this character and the Vetenari they got for Going Postal commanded the screen so well you'd almost think he could run the city.

That's my two pence, now back under the bridge with me. buglit, Melinium hand and shrimp.

[MoonCat]

Well, the way I see it, MR was not only about Sweet Polly Oliver. Yeah, it was a lot about it and your lineage may vary on whether he overstretched it or did a good job exaggerating the trope ad absurdum.
But the thing is, the book is not only about it. It's also about a country which is ina horrible state due to clinging to traditions/religion, about believe and Pterry's only military novel so far about... well, soldiering. Of course opinions can differ on how well this was done but reducing it to 'it was bad because of *spoiler* doesn't give credit to the book, imo.

No, don't get me wrong, I love MR, and got the rest of that, I'm just saying it was overstretched just that once. It most certainly doesn't make it a bad book. That may have even been him poking fun at himself, that I just didn't have go over well with me.

On an unrelated note, it appears someone has made a compilation of all the funny Terry Pratchett quotes and turned it into a book. What I don't understand is how he managed to get every book Pterry has ever written into one volume.

[Partysan]

Going off-topic, but related to this:

This is out of pure ignorance that I'm asking this. I've heard many complaints about the translations of many different things into German; that they are far inferior in enjoyability to the original language. I understand that's the case with reading almost anything translated, but I've never heard as many people have serious issues as consistently as I have with German. As I understand it, German with its complex compound words, is a very precise language for saying what you mean. I would think that'd mean it would be good at relating proper nuance. Why is it that there are so many bad translations? Bad translators?

Well, for one thing a lot of puns depend on a single word having two meanings. The translation of that word to another language (not necesserily German) might not carry the same secondary meaning, thus killing the pun. Idioms will also be different and can't be played with easily, since translating an idiom literally won't make sense.
As others have said, one thing in the German language is that you will recognize if a word is a verb or noun or adjective and while plays on that are possible they're a lot harder to do than in English.
By the way, there are people who can do puns in German just fine, but most of them don't work as translators.
And regarding Discworld, the german translator (Andreas Brandhorst) is just notoriously bad at his job and no one proofreads him (or no one competent). Not only the puns are translated badly or not at all (which is understandable, although he misses a lot of opportunities to make puns in German which would work just fine), he also makes a lot of mistakes that are just stupid, then he sometimes leaves out whole passages of text or arbitrarily changes something or translates the opposite of what stands there...
To all German readers: Go here (http://www.scheibenwelt.de/main.php?page=fehler) and download the pdf that lists all the mistranslations and what should have been.
My favourite is how they said that the Hogfather instead of Schneevater (why?!) should have been called Schweinachtsmann.

[Kato]

On an unrelated note, it appears someone has made a compilation of all the funny Terry Pratchett quotes and turned it into a book. What I don't understand is how he managed to get every book Pterry has ever written into one volume.

Or at least a book that can be placed in a normal bookshelf and does not bent the L-space around itself significantly.


Anyway, I already mentioned it a page earlier but I guess I might just elaborate on the topic of Going Postal - The Movie and my... well, disdain would be an exaggeration but dislike.

GENERAL SPOILERS AHEAD

Don't get me wrong, in and off itself it is a decent movie. I love Richard Coyle and he does a grear job with Lipwig and the other actors are somewhere between great and good too, but it's all the pesky changes differing from the book which make me grind my teeth. I know, they can not picture a machine which bends reality for pi to be three, but why remove it completely? What's with all the flashbacks? That's probably the worst thing. Are we too stupid or is Moist to stupid to get it after the first one? Especially the last one? Was this badly executed Narm? Are cigarettes the new heroin? Did I miss something?! Why shove Angua in the picture like that? If you read one watch novel after Men At Arms you know she won't just transform in public. Apart from that, what about the unnecessary action towards the end? It's not that bad but still, it just felt out of place. And to finish my rant what about the antagonist(s)? Why did they gibe Horsefry such a big role? But really, that's just a minor thing but in the book Gilt came across like a skilled opponent (at least I had the image for most of it) where the movie's is a rather pathetic worm who might as well have won his fortune in a lottery. Though on the other hand it might just be me there... Not saying it's Suchet's fault but whoever wrote the adaption...


Okay, rant over, sorry. Just felt like I had to get it out of my system. And again, it's not a bad movie. If it was on it's own it was pretty good but, imo, it doesn't do credit to the book in quite some points.

[Weimann]

Finally, after how many decades again? Discworld is finally officially translated in my country.

It starts with the color of magic, so will need to wait some time until it got the cooler parts though :smallbiggrin:

I already have it, but I'd like to buy it again anyway to see how they translated pterry's humour.I remember, in the Swedish translation of... I think it was Soul Music, there was one joke where the translator made a footnote that went "Sorry, this is just to much, I can't do this. This joke is about this and this." I thought that was awesome of the translator.

[BiblioRook]

Stanly is perfect, he even leans slightly towards the sun most of the time, a detail from the book they don't mention in the movie.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that noticed that. It's such a small detail that they could have oh so easily omitted, but the fact that they kept it added a great deal to the movie for me. :smallsmile:

One small complaint I had about the Going Postal movie though were the Golems. The 'men in rubber suits' thing kind creeped me out, particually do to little 'human' things they kept doing that seemed really odd to me for a clay man to do. :smallconfused:

[Sipex]

Halfway through the going postal film (ie: done part 1) and I've avoided your comments due to spoilers.

So far...thoughts:
- At first, Moist doesn't seem as smooth as I pictured him. He does grow on you though and gets better as time goes.
- I'm a bit dissapointed by how the curse worked out, although it makes sense in a way. They couldn't have Moist making the comparisons when he realises how the curse actually worked.
- Stanley and Groat are absolutely perfect
- Adora is a tad nicer than I pictured her
- The Horse was no where near fast enough although I'm going to chalk that up to 'We couldn't afford the special effects budget to make the horse seem worse'
- Golems are alright could be better but alright.
- The Banshee is very dissapointing, he's supposed to remain a mystery until the post office and even then he's nothing how I imagined.

[SuperPanda]

Or at least a book that can be placed in a normal bookshelf and does not bent the L-space around itself significantly.


Anyway, I already mentioned it a page earlier but I guess I might just elaborate on the topic of Going Postal - The Movie and my... well, disdain would be an exaggeration but dislike.

GENERAL SPOILERS AHEAD

Don't get me wrong, in and off itself it is a decent movie. I love Richard Coyle and he does a grear job with Lipwig and the other actors are somewhere between great and good too, but it's all the pesky changes differing from the book which make me grind my teeth. I know, they can not picture a machine which bends reality for pi to be three, but why remove it completely? What's with all the flashbacks? That's probably the worst thing. Are we too stupid or is Moist to stupid to get it after the first one? Especially the last one? Was this badly executed Narm? Are cigarettes the new heroin? Did I miss something?! Why shove Angua in the picture like that? If you read one watch novel after Men At Arms you know she won't just transform in public. Apart from that, what about the unnecessary action towards the end? It's not that bad but still, it just felt out of place. And to finish my rant what about the antagonist(s)? Why did they gibe Horsefry such a big role? But really, that's just a minor thing but in the book Gilt came across like a skilled opponent (at least I had the image for most of it) where the movie's is a rather pathetic worm who might as well have won his fortune in a lottery. Though on the other hand it might just be me there... Not saying it's Suchet's fault but whoever wrote the adaption...


Okay, rant over, sorry. Just felt like I had to get it out of my system. And again, it's not a bad movie. If it was on it's own it was pretty good but, imo, it doesn't do credit to the book in quite some points.

My personal responses to your points of annoyance. Some of them did bug me at first, but I came to love both versions of the story for what they are mostly because Sir Pratchett has given the filmed version his personal stamp of approval and has said he was delighted with it himself. I've retro spoilered your comments and spoilered mine since I might go into some more detail.


First, changes have to be made because the medium of Film and the medium of Book demand different things of a narrative. So every single point of what follows is on this theme. If you'd have preferred them not make a filmed version (Terry Pratchett's default position when people ask him about it), then you can kindly ignore any or all points of this.

The Sorting Engine: The sorting engine didn't really have any important part in the book apart from killing Gryle, since the letters were already somewhat sentient, them serving the role of two saves time and allows the film to focus on the primary narrative thread they chose, Moist's redemption.

Flashbacks: In both the book and the film Moist is completely unrepentant and is just looking for a way out of his sentence to do the whole thing all over again. In the books he has more time and space to come to the realization of his wrong doing and seek to better himself. The film doesn't have the time to do that and keep the sort of action Moist Von Lipwig commands going. They picked the action, which is what the medium required them to pick. Now they needed a way to hammer Pump 19's point into Moist. The flashbacks work for that. Its very different form the book, but since it reminds me alot of Moving Pictures (a different Terry Pratchett,) I grew to love it.

Cigarettes: Well, smoking is just not socially accepted anymore for better or worse (I say better, but then I have asthma and so dislike being near anyone who wants to smoke). Smoking is believed to calm you down and help you relax while it is obvious that in the film's version of Discworld people are aware that smoking is very bad for you. I don't think it was so much a strong drug thing as that in a moment of pain she chose to start up a habit that was slowly killing her.

Angua... I don't know, personally I really wished they left her out of this. Its such a short bit though that I can grunt through it and move on.

Horsefly: Horsefly is the opposite of the Sorting Engine and got the opposite treatment. He is barely in the book but he is massively important to the plot. His ledger is what brings down Gilt in the end. He needed to be introduced long enough for his character to be established.

Gilt killing him as he did was one of my complaints, but since the ledgers get discovered after Gryle's death in the film it followed logically, also Pony needed a reason to go to Ms Dearheart.

Gilt. Gilt Gilt Gilt. He's almost exactly how he is described in the book, the major difference is that we don't get to see him outside his con man persona until much later on in the book. If you didn't see anything but the scenes where he is working his angles and you didn't know he was the villain you'd think he was just a poofter trying to look and act like a pirate (because we all know that some one who really is a Tiger wouldn't act like one... right?). The thing with him raising himself up to try to look superior to Vetenari in the begining made him look a little stupid, but it was very Pratchett like humor and established that the game was being played between Vetnari and Gilt right off the bat. Since Vetenari is the one who made him look like a fool, and being Vetenari, is also the obvious winner in the end, I thought it worked.

Mostly gilt suffered because the film needed to establish him as the villain early on so that we'd be clear that Moist was the protagonist (since Moist starts off pretty nasty while Gilt starts off pretty nice in the book). Add to that the fact that his persona was to declare to the world how nasty and evil he is and let them laugh at him for it, it makes us think he is pathetic because of how obviously evil he is. The point is that he does it in the book too, but in the book we don't know he really is evil until much later, but which point it becomes impressive.

So, I understand your nitpicks. Personally I was disappointed to miss out on Groat's medicine, the Postman's Walk, alot of the interplay with the clack's operators, and Drumknot's pencil. In Going Postal and again in Making Money, Moist keeps stealing the pencil and I really wished it was in the movie where the facial expressions would have been priceless with the wonderful actors involved.


Again, as my re-rant comes to an end, I'd like to say that I loved the film for what it is and forgave it its flaws because the Author of the book said he was delighted with it and if it delighted him then it must have done a jolly good job. When people ask him if they can make a Discworld Movie they often say it will make him rich. Pratchett is known to reply,

"I'm pretty sure I am already rich. What I want to know is: Will it make me happy?"

The three films made to date obviously have, and for me that is reason enough to forgive them their faults.

[Incompleat]

I enjoyed Monstrous Regiment, actually. Sure, the Sweet Polly Oliver plot was absolutely ridiculous, but that was part of the fun - one does not read Pratchett for the plot, after all, one reads him for the parodies and the characterization and the witticisms and the puns. And while the anti-war, anti-fundamentalism aesop of MR was a little hamfisted, it was not nearly as anvilicious as, let's say, the one of Jingo.

Moving Pictures, on the other hand, was absolutely awful. A bunch of tired old cinema memes, a couple of dull, unsympathetic protagonists and the tired old "clap your hand if your believe" idea that Pratchett keeps putting in his books (granted, the first time I read it I found it amusing, but it gets repetitive after a while...) do not a story make.

[Kato]

I enjoyed Monstrous Regiment, actually. Sure, the Sweet Polly Oliver plot was absolutely ridiculous, but that was part of the fun - one does not read Pratchett for the plot, after all, one reads him for the parodies and the characterization and the witticisms and the puns. And while the anti-war, anti-fundamentalism aesop of MR was a little hamfisted, it was not nearly as anvilicious as, let's say, the one of Jingo.

Moving Pictures, on the other hand, was absolutely awful. A bunch of tired old cinema memes, a couple of dull, unsympathetic protagonists and the tired old "clap your hand if your believe" idea that Pratchett keeps putting in his books (granted, the first time I read it I found it amusing, but it gets repetitive after a while...) do not a story make.

Hu, you read Pterry for the parodies but don't enjoy MP? It's like, the book that's overloaden with them. (Also, I read the books for the plot as well, but that's just me) Well, I guess you lineage may vary on lots of things, if you didn't like it, too bad. I liked it and I just reread it. (well, heard, anyway)


@ Superpanda:
I see your points and as I said, it's not an awful movie, just imo a poor adaption (If Pterry thins otherwise, good for him but I don't have to agree with him on EVERYTHING)
I'd argue on some of them but I guess that's just me. (And I forgot the postman walk. I really liked that part in the bok but i guess it wasn't 'that' essential so compared to other changes I could live with leaving it out. (I also could live without the sorting machine I just thought I'd mention it anyway)
Okay, for the real major thing which I won't get over are the flashbaks. I understand your point but I still think there would have been better ways to implement it than these. Especially the last one still stand out as unintentional NARM at least in my book which... I don't know. It really made me go 'WTH?' when watching. (all medical perspectives asaid, I don't smoke either but it just doesn't bother me)
Finally, I enjoyed seeing Angua (I always enjoy seeing attractive women :smallbiggrin: ) but they just made a mistake when they made her transform in front of him, in a lot of ways. It was unnecessary. We all knew who she was and it wasn't an amazing effect or anything.

Anyway, heard they were doing Making Money next, guess that'll tun out better though I'm curious about Igor and whatever hiis masters name was. Guess they'll not be there (maybe)

[SuperPanda]

I had heard anything about Sky One doing another Pratchett. Even rumor that its going to be making money brightens my day.

I do understand your points on the film's changes, and after recently rereading Going Postal and then re-watching the film, I think I see both sides of it. In the end the book is better (books usually are) and I think we can agree that the movie is enjoyable enough.

If they are doing Making Money next after all, I hope they keep some of the same actors, and I hope they put in the bit with Drumknott's pencils. I takes no time and its only of my favorite little jokes in the book. Well, that and Mr. Fusspot.

[Fjolnir]

I have a friend who has read all of Pterry's discworld novels besides the last hero and absolutely HATES moving pictures and soul music. He finds the cut a bit too close to the subject matter and are too heavily counting on the parody for humor.

[Sipex]

I've only read Soul Music and while I agree that the book cuts really close to the subject matter (therefore requiring that the audience in question be fairly familiar with it, but not requiring them to be a huge fan of said subject matter) I don't agree that it necessarily makes it bad.

This could be because I recognised a lot of the refences though.

[Kato]

I had heard anything about Sky One doing another Pratchett. Even rumor that its going to be making money brightens my day.

I do understand your points on the film's changes, and after recently rereading Going Postal and then re-watching the film, I think I see both sides of it. In the end the book is better (books usually are) and I think we can agree that the movie is enjoyable enough.

If they are doing Making Money next after all, I hope they keep some of the same actors, and I hope they put in the bit with Drumknott's pencils. I takes no time and its only of my favorite little jokes in the book. Well, that and Mr. Fusspot.

Yeah, I guess we can agree on that ;)

I certainly hope they keep them. At least Coyle and... whoever did Adora. (Sorry, only Coyle stuck, love him) he rest of the cast... Well, apart from Vetinari the others don't really have that much impact on the plot but I guess they'll do it decently. I guess they'll not have Angua show up this time, as I recall her role was rather minor and kind of relied on Moist not knowing who she was. Anyway, I'm looking forward to it.


On the last two entries, I wouldn't say so. Been a while since I read Soul Music but I'm not really a massive movie junkie and got a lot of fun out of it. I also got a lot of references which about everyone who's not living in locked away somewhere should get. (Though, I'd say a few are a bit out of date but nothing he could have done about that, it's been what, almost twenty years?)

[Capt Spanner]

So long as they get Christopher Lee to do the voice of Death I'm with them all the way! :smallsmile:

Eh. There was a TV Series where Death was voiced by Christopher Lee and I wasn't a huge fan of it TBH. Lee gets the gravitas, but completely fails to get the whimsical side of Death in.

[Fri]

Just got my latest shipment of discworld books: Thud, Going Postal, Small Gods, and The Truth.

Just finished Thud, it's awesome. I like it better than Night Watch and Fifth Elephant. Now the only Nightwatch book that I haven't read is Jingo.

[chiasaur11]

Just got my latest shipment of discworld books: Thud, Going Postal, Small Gods, and The Truth.

Just finished Thud, it's awesome. I like it better than Night Watch and Fifth Elephant. Now the only Nightwatch book that I haven't read is Jingo.

Jingo's generally considered the weakest of them, just a heads up.

Still a fine book.

[MoonCat]

Night Watch rules the world for the Sam Vimes novels. Thud! got off wrong on me (that's the best I can describe it), and it feels like the true brillianceof his character really showed up in NW. Also, Lu-tze was in it. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Fri]

The reason on why I like Night Watch less than what I think I should, is poor, poor Sergeant Keel.

I don't know how to explain it that well. He sounds like a very cool character, and in this current... universe... or timeline... or what you call it, he got shafted... I wonder how to phrase it. Sadly? Anticlimatically? Basically, he's killed before he got any chance to actually live. The Sgt Keel that everyone remember now is actually Vimes, and only Vimes himself remember the real Sgt Keel. That's close to a fate worse than death. I wonder how he'd actually act, without any of Vimes' future knowledge. But yeah, the book itself is actually pretty cool. Though, I still prefer Thud, because it got characters other than Vimes. Vimes' cool, but I prefer if the story got other characters too.

In fact, as I've told you, my favourite watch book would be Men at Arms and Feet of Clay. For some reason I always thought that those two books are meant to be read together. It's because those books have the perfect balance in my opinion: The watch got numbers but still low enough for camaraderie and for them to be underdog and weak, Vimes got the perfect balance of power and disrespect, and real reason to still walk the streets (now he's a duke and a commander) and so on. It's really hard to explain.

Maybe... something like.. in DnD, my sweetspot is around level 6-10. You're strong enough to do have adventures and not die in one hit, you got interesting enough spells but nothing truly gamebreaking yet, and the problem you face are cool enough without resorting to facing archdemons to give you challenge... It's not perfect, but I think it's the best analogy that I could think of.

[Themrys]

To all German readers: Go here (http://www.scheibenwelt.de/main.php?page=fehler) and download the pdf that lists all the mistranslations and what should have been.
My favourite is how they said that the Hogfather instead of Schneevater (why?!) should have been called Schweinachtsmann.

It really seems no one proofreads those translations. Sad. You should think, considering all the money they make with the books, they could afford a proofreader.

However, some of the mistakes cited there aren't actually mistakes.

This:
Wer die Möglichkeit eines Mißerfolgs als absurd von sich weist, bringt alle notwendigen Voraussetzungen mit sich, um zu einem Ölfleck unter der Dampfwalze der Geschichte zu werden. (Das soll wohl heißen, man wird von der Geschichte erbarmungslos überrollt?) completely misses the fact that oil doesn't just lie on the road but does change the way a vehicle is headed.
In a dangerous way.
Although I have no idea why the translator didn't just translate the original literally.


And then there is "...so noble, they could pee through a dozen mattresses." which cannot be translated into German. Therefore, just replacing the pea with something so big it's ridiculous is a good idea. Not a mistake.

[Fri]

Just finished Small Gods, finally! I bought it, with Thud, The Truth, and Going Postal, a few months ago , but I tried to save it as present for myself for when I managed to finish my papers. I can see why a lot of people like it, but the premise reminds me on American Gods too much.

Now I'm starting on the Truth. I picked The Truth and Going Postal because I have some unexplainable interest.. say a fetish, toward Journalism and Postal Service.

[rakkoon]

They belong to what I call his Third Phase of writing and it is my favourite.
First there were the chaos novels, then the anecdote novels, then the Flowing novels. I love it that one author can change his writing style so often in the same series and still keep it interesting.

[Adlan]

pTerry is probably one of the most influential authors on my life. I read most of his books before I was exposed to enough pop culture to get most of the references (Bud of the Holly? Well it's interesting to know the translation of the name, but why put it in the foot note, there's usually a joke in there? :smallamused:)

But I'm very fortunate in that I'm part of the same cultural touchstones as pTerry, and I think I get a lot of his things more than foreign readers I talk to, and in reading this thread.

I found the B plot of Reaper man quite fun In my mind it's quite a good satire of the spread of supermarkets in the UK, and I'm rather fond of the wizards in particular, and it's one of the novels that really starts characterising the UU

I haven't seen any of the films. I'll have to get them on DVD at some point.

[Fri]

I wonder now though, what should I get next. Or maybe I should take a break from discworld already? I pretty much had bought all of the books I wanted. It took surprisingly less time than I thought.

Ah, I remember now. I still haven't got the witch series at all beside tiffany aching's ones. Besides those... I think I wanted to get Lord and Ladies and Thief of Time. Are those stand alone-ish enough? On the witch series, should I really start from the beginning?

[Eldan]

Lords and Ladies is a witch book, actually. Since these have a bit of a continuity, I'd start with Wyrd Sisters.
Thief of Time has a bit of a connection to the Death series and it helps if you know who Susan Death is. There's also a connection to Night Watch, via the Time Monks.

[Adlan]

I really like both Mort and Wyrd sisters, so I'd recommend starting with them, before hitting lords and ladies, or thief of time, though thief of time is more stand alone, Lords and Ladies really benefits from getting the witches from the start of the series.

And before you read wyrd sisters, a general knowledge of macbeth is useful, if you aren't familiar with the play, or shakespeare.

[rakkoon]

Starting from the beginning might be more fun because you see the characters grow. You can of course read them out of order and look at them as prequels :smallsmile:

[Sipex]

The witch series? They're very much similar to the watch series, where each book contains an entire story and can be read on it's own but if you read them in order you get to see how certain characters are introduced and how the characters got to where they are in life now.

[Fri]

Man. I'm really going to buy all discworld novel, isnt I?

On related note, I've just bought the first two translated discworld novel for my country, light fantastic and color of magic. I already got the original english version of them, but I'm curious on how they'd translate it. And I want my brother to get hooked up in discworld as well. The translation is surprisingly competent and quite funny.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Man. I'm really going to buy all discworld novel, isnt I?

On related note, I've just bought the first two translated discworld novel for my country, light fantastic and color of magic. I already got the original english version of them, but I'm curious on how they'd translate it. And I want my brother to get hooked up in discworld as well. The translation is surprisingly competent and quite funny.

Which language? The German translations are notoriously bad...

[dehro]

Man. I'm really going to buy all discworld novel, isnt I?

On related note, I've just bought the first two translated discworld novel for my country, light fantastic and color of magic. I already got the original english version of them, but I'm curious on how they'd translate it. And I want my brother to get hooked up in discworld as well. The translation is surprisingly competent and quite funny.

you should, yes.

as for the translations..the same happened with the italian translation..surprisingly well done, considering how Pratchett thrives on jokes that aren't easy to translate at all.

[Eldan]

You're lucky, then. I started with the German translations, and they are awful.

Well. They are of course still good enough that I bothered to continue reading the series. But they ruined about half of all jokes, often to a degree that you couldn't even tell that there was a joke once.

[chiasaur11]

You're lucky, then. I started with the German translations, and they are awful.

Well. They are of course still good enough that I bothered to continue reading the series. But they ruined about half of all jokes, often to a degree that you couldn't even tell that there was a joke once.

I hear they also added soup ads.

No lie.

[Lyra Reynolds]

Ah, I remember now. I still haven't got the witch series at all beside tiffany aching's ones. Besides those... I think I wanted to get Lord and Ladies and Thief of Time. Are those stand alone-ish enough? On the witch series, should I really start from the beginning?

Thief of Time is a standalone (although it might be nice to have read a Susan novel before it, like Hogfather). Lord & Ladies, however, is much better if you've read the previous two Witches books, Wyrd Sisters and Witches Abroad. L&L actually has a disclaimer in the front advising you to read the previous two books first. It's not exactly that you won't get the storyline, but the book has much more of an impact if you know who these characters are and where they came from. :)
Kind of how I started the Watch series with Nightwatch, thought it ok, then read the previous books and once I reread Nightwatch it actually made me cry! It's now one of my favourite Discworld books. :)

[Fri]

Guess what my newest favourite novel is!

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/096/2/4/ankh_morphok_times_by_fri_freeman-d3dcbia.jpg

Yeah, I like The Truth very much. Seriously, it got everything that I said I like in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172063) thread back then.. The journalism theme, the detective story, urban fantasy theme, the ragtag bunch of misfit underdogs, the humor, the unusual setting, everything.

I drew this straight after finishing reading the novel. I didn't reread it or use references, this is a spontaneous drawing of how I imagined the crew looks like.

[Kato]

Guess what my newest favourite novel is!

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/096/2/4/ankh_morphok_times_by_fri_freeman-d3dcbia.jpg

Yeah, I like The Truth very much. Seriously, it got everything that I said I like in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172063) thread back then.. The journalism theme, the detective story, urban fantasy theme, the ragtag bunch of misfit underdogs, the humor, the unusual setting, everything.

I drew this straight after finishing reading the novel. I didn't reread it or use references, this is a spontaneous drawing of how I imagined the crew looks like.

Yeah, the truth was very enjoyable. I'd not say anything spectacular but just rather flawless and well done as a whole. Though, I guess the basic plot is kind of rare or even unique.
Question, though: who's the dwarf? The one who made the printing? It's been a while but I can't really remember him having amjor impact on the story. I had been more curious about your idea of the villains but whatever suits you, I guess :smallwink:

[BRC]

Yeah, the truth was very enjoyable. I'd not say anything spectacular but just rather flawless and well done as a whole. Though, I guess the basic plot is kind of rare or even unique.
Question, though: who's the dwarf? The one who made the printing? It's been a while but I can't really remember him having amjor impact on the story. I had been more curious about your idea of the villains but whatever suits you, I guess :smallwink:
Goodmountain? He wasn't as memorable a character as William or Otto, but he was certainly very important. He and his crew came off as Standard Issue Discworld Dwarves, and the fact that they came as a largely interchangeable ensemble certainly didn't help. If anybody deserves to not be up there, it would be Rocky, who outside of a joke early on and getting knocked out by Tulip, had very little impact on the plot.

[Fri]

Yeah, it's Goodmountain. As tpam said, he's pretty important in the story, but pretty much a standard discworld dwarf (reminds me on Durkon actually). I put Rocky there because Trolls in suits amuses me, and he round up the five man band perfectly.

And now you reminds me, the villains of the book is actually pretty great. From the limited discworld books that I've read, they might be the most interesting villains so far. They reminds me on Neverwhere's villains though.

[BRC]

Yeah, it's Goodmountain. As tpam said, he's pretty important in the story, but pretty much a standard discworld dwarf (reminds me on Durkon actually). I put Rocky there because Trolls in suits amuses me, and he round up the five man band perfectly.

And now you reminds me, the villains of the book is actually pretty great. From the limited discworld books that I've read, they might be the most interesting villains so far. They reminds me on Neverwhere's villains though.
They're both copied pretty much standard from the archetype of the "Brains and Brawn" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThoseTwoBadGuys) criminal duo.

[Fri]

they are, except the book put a flair on the concept, like in neverwhere. My favourite part of them is how they're out-of-the-water in ankh morpokh though. They're both an original efficient villain that's rarely seen in the city, but yet also completely underestimate the city, and they're swallowed by ankh morpokh at the end. Werewolf in the watch? Town watches that actually cares? Trolls and vampires? What the heck! Basically, how they thought they're so badass and new and such (which they actually are), but didn't take account on how crazy ankh morpokh is. Hell, they even look down at veterinari!

[Kato]

Well, Mr Pin was kind of average at least there's not muh I can remember about him but Tulip kind of stuck. With his neat way of censoring ('It's an instrument for effing young girls.'... damn, can't remember the follow-up line. I liked it anyway) and his hidden depths, especially at the end.

[chiasaur11]

they are, except the book put a flair on the concept, like in neverwhere. My favourite part of them is how they're out-of-the-water in ankh morpokh though. They're both an original efficient villain that's rarely seen in the city, but yet also completely underestimate the city, and they're swallowed by ankh morpokh at the end. Werewolf in the watch? Town watches that actually cares? Trolls and vampires? What the heck! Basically, how they thought they're so badass and new and such (which they actually are), but didn't take account on how crazy ankh morpokh is. Hell, they even look down at veterinari!

Yeah, the scene in the Undead bar is great.

Worse author would use it to sell the new guys as a threat.

PTerry uses it to remind us that Ankh Morpork is a scary place. Coincidentally, this makes Vimes even more badass.

[Themrys]

Goodmountain? He wasn't as memorable a character as William or Otto, but he was certainly very important. He and his crew came off as Standard Issue Discworld Dwarves, and the fact that they came as a largely interchangeable ensemble certainly didn't help. If anybody deserves to not be up there, it would be Rocky, who outside of a joke early on and getting knocked out by Tulip, had very little impact on the plot.


Goodmountain? The guy who invented the printing press is named Goodmountain? That's awesome! :smallbiggrin:
(It's funnier in English because it's just the translation of the name of the guy who invented printing in real life...in the German version they changed it to the equivalent of "Goodhill" so it's not as recognizable - that makes it somewhat unfunnier)

[Fri]

Yeah, the scene in the Undead bar is great.

Worse author would use it to sell the new guys as a threat.

PTerry uses it to remind us that Ankh Morpork is a scary place. Coincidentally, this makes Vimes even more badass..

Despite how I kept saying that Vimes is becoming too badass lately, this time I must agree. How Wlliam realized that Vimes isn't just a 'simple copper' after underestimating him at first is quite satisfying.

Next in my queue is Going Postal. after that, I'm out for discworld books for a while.

And I'm an idiot. I totally missed that Goodmountain is a shout-out to Gutenberg, it should be obvious :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Don't worry. I missed that the German Gutenhügel is a shout-outm, despite being just as obvious.

[Kato]

Okay, so I'm not the only one who missed that :smallbiggrin:

[HeadlessMermaid]

Can I ask for some advice, here?

I read first "The Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic", and found them brilliant. Just... brilliant. Then I went on, in order, with "Equal Rites", which I found much less satisfying, and "Mort", which I found mediocre. At that point, I thought that it'll only get worse, and stopped reading Discworld novels altogether.

In hindsight, that was a mistake. :smalltongue: Almost everyone agrees that there are great books along the line. But... which ones? I don't have the time (or the energy) to start reading 40 books, hoping to stumble on the good ones.

Taking into account my preferences from the first 4 books (and continuity issues, if there are any), what would you suggest I pick up next? Thanks. :)

[BiblioRook]

Well I guess first thing to ask is what about the first two books made you like them while not liking the next two?

[HeadlessMermaid]

Well I guess first thing to ask is what about the first two books made you like them while not liking the next two?
Good question.

Well, first of all, I found The "Colour of Magic" & "The Light Fantastic" funny (and very funnier than the other two), but not in a, let's say, abstract way. Humour had a target. It was a parody reaching far beyond the genre clichés. It was a satire. Making fun of mighty warriors, barbarians and wizards is basically a way to make fun of power. In a very roundabout way, I saw these books as a satire of human nature and greed (for gold, for power, even for knowledge).

I appreciate the similar effort in "Equal Rites" (regarding, obviously, equal rights :smalltongue:), but the execution was lacking. Frankly, I'm not sure why, and bear in mind that it's many years since I read them. Fifteen, twenty? (Oh dear, I'm really old...)

I'm pretty sure that doesn't help very much, but it was the best I could do. :smallredface:

[Eldan]

Okay. First of all, this:

As Terry Pratchett moved on, his style changed a lot. He moved a bit away from whimsical parodies first, giving his books a bit more coherence and, usually, a single, denser plot per book. Then he became quite a bit more cynical and dark over the years. So, if you liked his first two books (which I find to be his weakest), you might not like any of the others very much.

If you like Rincewind, try more of the books featuring him and his friends: they are, basically, Pratchett's "Fantasy Parody" series:

Sourcery (about a magical hat and the return of True Magic), Faust Eric (about a demon pact to fulfill wishes), Interesting Times (about not-at-all-China-and-Japan), The Last Continent (about Australia) and The Last Hero (Cohen returns to the gods what the first hero stole from them).

[BiblioRook]

First thing I probably would suggest which might not be what you are looking for is to just keep reading. You stopped at Mort which means next is Sourcery, that's about the time 'real' plot starts becoming more into focus. Equal Rites is often considered to be one of the low end of the Discworld books so you certainly wouldn't be alone in not liking it.

With a more focus on a liner story and plot though means that stand-along parodies and references such as in Colour of Magic become more subtle however. I believe the closest thing that comes next along those lines is The Last Continent where Rincewind wanders from one Australian related story to another with little connection between them all. Faust Eric could be seen that way too in a way, also a Rincewind book (but don't read that one without reading Sourcery first).

Some of the various books throughout individually often make for more straight parody too, such as Moving Pictures (Hollywood), Witches Abroad (Fairy Tales, a witch book) and Soul Music (Rock and Roll, a Death book). Really, it's kinda hard to truly suggest 'jumping in' to Discworld as reading into it probably would give one the greater enjoyment overall as it better sets the stage as it were for all the other books that come after it.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Thanks to both of you. I thought about explaining my tastes a bit better (normally, I'm all for dark and cynical), but picking it up from where I left it seems like a good idea after all. And we'll see. :smallsmile:

[Fri]

Not the watches book? Isn't dark and cynical (and lawful good) is what vimes is all about?

Anyway, just finished Going Postal. Oh, god it's so awesome. Postal Service is my other passion besides journalism. It's a bit more fantastic than the previous books that I've been reading (avatar of post! even only a bit) but I was hoping to stumble into a more fantastic discworld novel anyway. Man, charisma based heroes are always my favourite type of heroes.

But now I'm out of discworld books now. I'm planning to take a sabattical from it for a while, and had been ordering other books, but man, after finishign going postal now I can't wait to get other discworld books, though I don't know whether I can find anything that I'll find that amazing anymore, since I've got all the books I've been looking for (the watches book, truth, small gods, and going postal_.

[chiasaur11]

Not the watches book? Isn't dark and cynical (and lawful good) is what vimes is all about?

Anyway, just finished Going Postal. Oh, god it's so awesome. Postal Service is my other passion besides journalism. It's a bit more fantastic than the previous books that I've been reading (avatar of post! even only a bit) but I was hoping to stumble into a more fantastic discworld novel anyway. Man, charisma based heroes are always my favourite type of heroes.

But now I'm out of discworld books now. I'm planning to take a sabattical from it for a while, and had been ordering other books, but man, after finishign going postal now I can't wait to get other discworld books, though I don't know whether I can find anything that I'll find that amazing anymore, since I've got all the books I've been looking for (the watches book, truth, small gods, and going postal_.

Well, The Last Hero is pretty fun.

[Erloas]

I've always preferred the Witch series over the rest (including the Tiffany Aching ones). Kind of ironically maybe, but I always found them more realistic then the Watch series. And of course realistic isn't quite the best word, fitting or believable or at least more closely founded in reality. The Rincewind books, while enjoyable, were never my favorites, and in that line I prefer the other wizards over Rincewind. The death series is a bit harder to place, I like some of the characters and plots a lot but others are a bit weaker. The more stand alone ones vary quite a bit too. Of course I haven't found a discworld book I didn't like, its just some I can't hardly put down.

As for what to read next, its hard to say for sure because its been 10ish years since I started reading them and I know all the characters so well its hard to separate out specific books any more. Small Gods was the book that got me hooked on discworld to start with and its almost completely stand alone. Thief of Time is also great, and while it does tie in some characters it mostly stands on its own. Or either the first book of the Watch series or the Witches... although as I said the characters develop through the books so I can't really pull out the specific plot that was the first book in either series.

[Fri]

Anyway, I was thinking. Ankh Morpokh is relatively nice and all, but it all revolves around Lord Vetinari. That's actually the problem with a lot of tyranny or dictatorship actually, at one point it might be great and all, but it's only because that particular dictator is benevolent/competent. Usually,the dictatorship always plunges after the competent dictator's death. So... I don't believe that vetinari doesn't have anything prepared for that. I wonder whether it's been touched sometimes in the books.

[Eldan]

Some people have suggested he might be training Moist for that, but it doesn't look right for me.

Do we actually have any idea how old Vetinari is? Even vaguely? Judging from Night Watch, he's about as old as Vimes, but that's just as vague.

[Aidan305]

So... I don't believe that vetinari doesn't have anything prepared for that. I wonder whether it's been touched sometimes in the books.
There's speculation that he's been subtly training up Moist von Lipwig to be able to take up his position wherealisen he finally vacates it. Vetinari's intelligent and forward thinking enough to that he can't live forever.

[Adlan]

There's also the possibility of Carrot taking over the reigns.

He is the rightful king after all. But considering his character, I think it's much more likely he acts to see the next patrician is suitable, rather than taking the throne himself.

[dehro]

There's speculation that he's been subtly training up Moist von Lipwig to be able to take up his position wherealisen he finally vacates it. Vetinari's intelligent and forward thinking enough to that he can't live forever.

there have been instances of him being deposed or otherwise indisposed..and people HAVE seen what that is like.

[Fri]

anyway, the main difference between real world and fantasy universes like discworld is, people do can live forever in Discworld. Mr Slant, for example? Or vampirism.

[Radar]

anyway, the main difference between real world and fantasy universes like discworld is, people do can live forever in Discworld. Mr Slant, for example? Or vampirism.
There are even undead emancipation activists (The Fresh Start Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fresh_Start_Club.jpg) run by Reginald Shoe) :smallsmile:

[Selrahc]

Anyway, I was thinking. Ankh Morpokh is relatively nice and all, but it all revolves around Lord Vetinari. That's actually the problem with a lot of tyranny or dictatorship actually, at one point it might be great and all, but it's only because that particular dictator is benevolent/competent. Usually,the dictatorship always plunges after the competent dictator's death. So... I don't believe that vetinari doesn't have anything prepared for that. I wonder whether it's been touched sometimes in the books.

It's got to be Carrot.

Carrot is happy with the way the city is running, he likes being a cop, and he doesn't want to upset Mr Vimes.

But if it was going to plunge back into madness? He'd take up the reigns of power. And he'd do a good job.

I wouldn't rule out the idea of that being the final Discworld book if Terry ever decides to wrap the series up. So much of the metaplot of the series has been the build-up of Ankh Morpork, so the succession of Vetinari may be the only natural finishing point.

[BiblioRook]

I never thought about it being a possibility before, but once you pointed it out I found I actually really liked the idea of Moist being groomed to being the next Patrician.

Sure Carrot would step in and take over if there was no other option, but if there was any feasible option available whatsoever he would be in the forefront making sure it came to be. I get the impression that Carrot would really dislike actually ruling the city in the long run. As much as he loves the city itself, he doesn't seem to be the kind of person that would enjoy hat level of bureaucracy while at the same time being denied the freedom he has now as a cop.

All that just being hypothetical, I also hope it actually never comes to that. Vetinari is one of my favorite characters and I wouldn't want to see him go away.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Moist grooming makes sense.


Anyways, I just finished re-reading Soul Music. Meh. It was... disappointing. Not nearly as funny as I remember, now that I just see all the references and go "Yup, that's a reference".

[Lyra Reynolds]

I also read theories to the effect dat Drumknott was being groomed to run Ankh-Morpork, not as Patrician but more from the background, perhaps as assistant to somebody else (Moist? Mr Nutt even?). The city might even end up a democracy, although I kind of doubt how much the 'older generation' (if I may call Vetinari and Vimes that :p) is going to like that. :p

[Adlan]

I also read theories to the effect dat Drumknott was being groomed to run Ankh-Morpork, not as Patrician but more from the background, perhaps as assistant to somebody else (Moist? Mr Nutt even?). The city might even end up a democracy, although I kind of doubt how much the 'older generation' (if I may call Vetinari and Vimes that :p) is going to like that. :p

In Unseen Accademicals, it's mentioned that a nearby city state has started democracy, and as such, has recently voted away taxes. I don't think democracy is going to be featuring in Ankh-Morpork anytime soon.

[dehro]

I also read theories to the effect dat Drumknott was being groomed to run Ankh-Morpork, not as Patrician but more from the background, perhaps as assistant to somebody else (Moist? Mr Nutt even?). The city might even end up a democracy, although I kind of doubt how much the 'older generation' (if I may call Vetinari and Vimes that :p) is going to like that. :p
yeah..drumknott not so much..methinks he lacks the imagination and is too much of a clerk to step up to such a role..he's more the alfred to batman..important yet not quite the superhero.

[BRC]

I see Moist as the only potential successor to Vetinari.
Carrot is a good person. He's smart, he's got charisma, and he's certainly determined to do whats best for the city. However, he doesn't have the right mindset for a Patrician. Maybe it's just my general impression of him, but Carrot seems like the type to analyze a problem, determine the ideal outcome, and then use all his capabilities to make that happen, whether or not it's really practical, and ignoring potential fallout. Remember in Thud, when he closes three major roads to ensure Vimes gets home by six. He is a great Agent, but he has no sense of priority. Were he patrician, I get the feeling he would try to solve every problem that came across his desk, applying resources and energy until it was solved, no matter how inconsequential it was. Also, Carrot is honest, which is a great trait for a police officer, but I don't think he could operate at the highest levels of Ahnk Morpork politics.

Drumknott is a clerk, plain and simple. He isn't nearly creative or devious enough to do what is neccessary.

Vimes, as much as he hates it, is capable of seeing things from Vetenari's viewpoint. He's smart enough to see what needs to be done, suspicious enough to avoid being hoodwinked, and ruthless enough to ensure that things happen properly. However, Vimes would make a poor patrician. He is far too hands-on, unwilling to delegate. Also, Vimes needs a boss, somebody to answer to. Even if he never openly chastises him, the fact that Vetinari exists keeps Vimes in check.
Also, Vimes is, to put it lightly, undiplomatic. If faced with a dispute between two guilds his response would be to crack their heads together and yell at them for being idiot. He lacks the patience necessary to deal with people he doesn't agree with. Also, he's not much younger than Vetinari, so he makes a poor successor unless Vetinari retires early.


Now, Moist has the potential to be a great patrician. He's got load of charisma and can wrap people around his finger. He's a showman, and while he personally may not know how to do very much, he's good at getting people who DO know how to do things to work for him. He's smart enough to recognized opportunities when he sees them, he knows the way money works, and he's devious enough to manipulate people.
The problem with Moist is that in his heart he's still the con man who sells a fake gold watch for the thrill of it. Vetinari actually cares about the state of the city, and he knows to leave well enough alone. Moist only knows how to live on the edge. In a crisis he could provide bold, inspired leadership, but he would be a terrible leader in times of plenty and prosperity, he is incapable of sitting back and just letting things happen. Dealing with small issues wouldn't be able to hold his interest. After he solved the big problems that faced him, he would start inventing new ones in order to have something to do.

That said, if he ever cared enough about the city to restrain himself and be satisfied when things were going well, he could be great. As he is now he'd usher in a golden age, then steal half the treasury just to see if he could get away with it.

[hamishspence]

Also, he's not much younger than Vetinari, so he makes a poor successor unless Vetinari retires early.

I thought Vetinari might be the same age as Vimes or even very slightly younger- Vetinari is still "at school" at the Assassin's Guild, when the young Vimes has joined the Watch, in Night Watch.

[BRC]

I thought Vetinari might be the same age as Vimes or even very slightly younger- Vetinari is still "at school" at the Assassin's Guild, when the young Vimes has joined the Watch, in Night Watch.
Yeah, but I got the impression that Vetinari was just about finished with his education, while Vimes had just recently joined the Watch. I think Vimes was somewhere between 16 and 18 during Night Watch, while Vetinari was somewhere between 18 and 20. Young Vetinari certainly seemed more mature than Young Vimes, but that might have just been Vetinari, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his first words were "Situational Analysis"
Then again, considering the life he's led, I wouldn't be surprised if, even assuming natural causes, Vimes dies before Vetinari. Vimes has been injured countless times, was once an alcoholic, and tolerates Vegetables as an unnecessary chore (see the Bacon Sandwich from Thud). With the exception of his leg (in Men at Arms), and a blow to the head, Vetinari has never really been injured and probably takes much better care of himself. Mind you, he dosn't seem to sleep much, but neither does Vimes.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Dealing with small issues wouldn't be able to hold his interest. After he solved the big problems that faced him, he would start inventing new ones in order to have something to do.


You see a bit of that in the beginning of Making Money. He's gotten the Post running, and he ends up climbing around the building like a thief because he needs SOMETHING to do.


With the exception of his leg (in Men at Arms), and a blow to the head, Vetinari has never really been injured and probably takes much better care of himself. Mind you, he dosn't seem to sleep much, but neither does Vimes.

Vetinari was also poisoned once, remember...

[BRC]

Vetinari was also poisoned once, remember...

True, but I doubt that's had as many long term health risks as Vimes' life spent getting punched in the face.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

True, but I doubt that's had as many long term health risks as Vimes' life spent getting punched in the face.

That's very true. I can't imagine either one going away anytime soon. At least another book to set up their gone-ness needs to happen before the book where either of them leaves/dies.

[Erloas]

Well it has been very well established that Vetinari had to prove his way into power and took a long time to get things the way they currently are. I don't think its possible for someone to take his place without a long struggle. There is no way the other major powers in the city let someone else take over his spot.

I do think that Moist is the most practical of the primary characters we've meet so far. We do know though that there are a lot of guild leaders and business people that have a lot of what it would take.

I think though, that give this is Pratchett, the answer would be "what does the narrative demand?" I think its been made clear that while Carrot *should* have been the long lost heir returning to rule, that it is past the point of that happening. I don't think the narrative allows the patrician, a "temporary" ruler there in place of the king, and tyrant by his own account, to simply "pass on" leadership to someone else. Vimes wouldn't take the job, neither would Carrot, and Moist doesn't have the backing to make it work.
I think Vetinari has to put into place rules that force the new Patrician to become a victim of sorts to the system rather then on top of it. Keep the person on top so bound by bureaucracy to not be able to really screw stuff up too much.
I think the narrative also sort of forces things to go to a democracy. I think it also re-enforces the ideas Vetinari has already established, that the guilds have to diplomatically work with and against each other because Ankh-Morpork is too complex to be rules by any one group.

[Kato]

No, no, no. Democracy does not wok in Ankh Morpork. The town is too filled up with stupid people. And arrogant people, greedy people, etc. They wouldn't last a year.
If Vetinari goes they need a new patrician just like him which would most likely be Moist since he already has proven his ability to... well, do what needs to be done to handle such a situation.
The other alternative would be Carrot since he has the charisma to gather enough people under hhim and follow his command to create a stable government yet also is capable of dealing with those unfit for his reign.
My bets are on Moist, though since Carrot never showed any interest in being a king.

[Erloas]

No, no, no. Democracy does not wok in Ankh Morpork. The town is too filled up with stupid people. And arrogant people, greedy people, etc.
I think thats exactly why it would work. It is actually exactly what Vetinari already does, he gets people to believe that what he wants is what they want and that they have some control over what is going on. All of the main powers in the city does what Vetinari wants because they can talk to him and believe they have more control over what is going on then they do.
People being too stupid to vote for someone to rule has never been an actual problem.

If there isn't a situation where the guilds feel they have some control over what happens they aren't going to go along with it. Democracy gives them the illusion that they have some power and control, but the bureaucracy makes it so that they don't really. Very likely a republic of sorts too. Without that illusion the guilds will once again work to destroy everything else. And of course Moist could very well fill that role because he has the charisma to pull it off, of working the sides and being just enough unaffiliated with all of the primary powers of the city to get all of them to back him as secondary to whatever figurehead they put up.

Moist, outside of an election of sorts where everyone accepts him as the less of evils, he simply doesn't have the power to keep himself in power if Vetinari just put him there. The only reason Vetinari managed to do it is because he took decades to build up the power he has, he had to slowly take it away from the other groups and reform it.

[Thufir]

Moist, outside of an election of sorts where everyone accepts him as the less of evils, he simply doesn't have the power to keep himself in power if Vetinari just put him there.

No-one said Vetinari is going to just put him in power. They said Vetinari is grooming him for the position - that is, preparing him, so that when he becomes the next patrician he will be ready to handle it.

[Eldan]

Though, well, Vetinari gladly calls himself a Tyrant. He was never elected either, and I think I remember that he didn't have much of an appreciation for democracy.

[chiasaur11]

Though, well, Vetinari gladly calls himself a Tyrant. He was never elected either, and I think I remember that he didn't have much of an appreciation for democracy.

Neither does Vimes.

Moist seems like he'd like it insofar as it lets him con everyone, which it would.

So, uh, not the best idea here.

[Kato]

It's not like nobody likes Vetinari ruling them but the people in power don't. Yet he has always proven they can't get along without him. If the guilds take over Ankh Morpork will burn. Thus has been hinted often enough. I guess if AM was a real city they could try democracy but on the Disc it wouldn't work. They need a ruler, who either rules with fear/manipulation/power or charisma.

[Erloas]

Though, well, Vetinari gladly calls himself a Tyrant. He was never elected either, and I think I remember that he didn't have much of an appreciation for democracy.

Yes, Vetinari was never elected, but from what I gathered, when he took the position it was mostly a figurehead position with the guilds really running things. He was the one that made the position as powerful as it now is. And as it is I don't think that much power can be transfered to someone else without throwing the city into chaos.

I also don't think it would be changed into a republic like the USA, and it probably wouldn't be a democracy like we think of them normally. I do however think that in order for Moist to take control he would have to get the various guilds to at least indirectly "vote" for him as an alternative to having some other guild's puppet in charge. I also think Moist would have a lot better chance getting the general population to accept him then the traditional powers of the city.


Of course the other option would be to put a figurehead back into the king position, and Carrot could work for that in much the same way that Vimes is a duke. Carrot doing all of the "King" sorts of things while someone like Moist is in the background actually making things work. Carrot would make a very good King, he would just make a very poor administrator of affairs and a bureaucrat.

[Selrahc]

Vetinari was also poisoned once, remember...

I'm not sure you really need to spoiler things which are the premise of the book they happen in.
I mean the mystery of the book wasn't determining what had happened, but how it happened.

Spoilers! Feet of Clay also contains Golems, and it is a book about the watch.

Actual spoilers

If you were going to say Vetinari was once poisoned by candles made by a Golem King, as paid for by a Vampire Genealogist then sure. That's a spoiler.

[Radar]

I'd like to remind everyone speculating about Carrot steping up to become a king, that he would never allow that to happen. It was clearly shown, he has a similar view on monarchy as Vimes. It is also good to remember, that despite his apparent simplicity and insane belief in goodwill of everone around, he is very inteligent and observant (or at least he learned that during his stay in Ankh-Morpork). Best nonspoiler example IMO was in "Making Money", when he questioned Moist. It went more or less like this:
M: I know, how this works. You'll ask me many innocent questions and wait for me to reveal facts, I shouldn't have known.
C: Thank you.
M: For what?
C: For letting me know, you know, how this works.

Also: I do think, that from all known characters Moist is most likely to be the next Patrician, but there are no proofs for such a theory. What is known, is that Vetinari sees Moist as a valuable asset, that could become a large problem if left unattended.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'm not sure you really need to spoiler things which are the premise of the book they happen in.
I mean the mystery of the book wasn't determining what had happened, but how it happened.

Spoilers! Feet of Clay also contains Golems, and it is a book about the watch.


Right, I couldn't remember exactly how that book went...

[SKarious]

Excuse me, but I have a spoilerish question on the eding of Unseen Academicals.
Who is Andy's mystery attacker?

[T-O-E]

It was clearly shown, he has a similar view on monarchy as Vimes. .

I'm sorry but I don't remember this even though I've read all the Watch books. Could you elaborate please?

[Kato]

Excuse me, but I have a spoilerish question on the eding of Unseen Academicals.
Who is Andy's mystery attacker?


I'm rather sure it was Pepe. Or Pete? Don't have the book around to check. You know who. I... thought it was made rather clear. Though I'm not absolutely sure why he did it. Guess just to teach him.

[Elder Tsofu]

I'm sorry but I don't remember this even though I've read all the Watch books. Could you elaborate please?

Isn't it mentioned here and there throughout the series, beginning at the end of the first book when Carrot speaks with Vetinari in the throne room?

[Radar]

I'm sorry but I don't remember this even though I've read all the Watch books. Could you elaborate please?
Remember the villain in Men at Arms, who had proofs of Carrot being the rightful heir to Ankh-Morpork throne? Carrot kills him without a single word. He then makes the proofs disappear.

[T-O-E]

Oh, I remember that. I thought you meant an actual disdain for royalty, rather than just not wanting to be king.

[BiblioRook]

It's really embarrassing to have accidentally stumble upon the info for the next Discworld book through Amazon's recommendation system, it means I'm slipping on keeping up on things. In any case before today all I knew about the next book was it was going to be a Watch book, now I have a title and a basic plot.
I'm kinda disappointed in that it doesn't seem to be taking place in Ankh-Morpork, I was looking forward to seeing how Sally was adjusting to the job.

[Fri]

New book? I haven't actually heard about it. Huh, this would actually be the first 'new' discworld book I get.

[An Enemy Spy]

The first Discworld book I ever read was The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents. I didn't even know there was a series. Years later, I read Going Postal. Felt like I was missing some vital information.
Now, I've read every book up to The Last Continent(except Pyramids. Still waiting for that one one to come.). Far and away the best one I've read so far is Men at Arms. The scene with Vimes, Carrot and the watch with the bells was just perfect.
Second favorite was Small Gods. "I know. He's Vorbis. But I'm me." If you know the context of that line than you know why I love that book so much.

[BiblioRook]

Is it just me, or does it seem 'Going Postal' often turns out to be one of (if not the) the first Discworld books people read?
It certainly was my introduction to the series...

[Aidan305]

My first Discworld book was Guards Guards. I think the one that gets recommended most as a starter is Small Gods.

[Eldan]

My first was Witches abroad. I bought it in one volume with Small Gods.

Also, I have just discovered something troubling: I'm not excited for this. The last few discworld books didn't do much for me. I loved the Tiffany series, but I Shall Wear Midnight didn't seem very good. Unseen Academicals left me cold as well.

[Kato]

I think my first was Pyramids (the German translation) along with... Lords & Ladies in one book, I think. Took me quite a while to REALLY start reading the series but the last two years I did a lot and am up to date except for I Shall Waer Midnight. Waiting for it to be a softcover...

Hm... Unseen Academicals was kind of weaker than... well not all but average I guess. But it's not a bad book. I don't think I'll make any judgement on the next book before read it.

[Elder Tsofu]

I've read through Unseen academicals once and I'll have to do it once more before giving a definite answer on it - but I was left unimpressed. I started to have this feeling around Thud, that he want to "finish" the series while he can / wrap it up /tie up the lose ends - something I'm a little against as I don't think it needs an "end". :smallfrown:

[Kato]

Well... I don't know how Pterry feels nor how I should feel but I'm afraid we can't expect an Alzheimer cure in the next few years. And even though I guess it's hard to say I don't think he'll be able to keep writing for too long. So either he ties it up, leaves it open or someone else will pick up the torch... And I'm not happy with any of these options. :smallfrown:

[BiblioRook]

Thing about Discworld though is that it would no way really suffer from concluding without an ending. There aren't really any books that leave obvious loose ends that need clearing up.
If Pratchett stops writing today (not the I by any means would want that to happen!) I would still be very content with what I've been able to read, only wanting more in the sense that it's such a great series but not in the sense that I feel anything is missing.

[An Enemy Spy]

You're right. Discworld needs no ending because in a way, Discworld really has no beginning. Sure, there's the Color of Magic but it's not as if that books kicks off the whole Discworld, only Rincewind's part in it. It could have started just as easily with Mort, or Guards! Guards!
Which is a good thing. I like being able to keep reading the series even if I can't always find the next book (Pyramids for example. Can't find it.)

[BiblioRook]

Talking of Discworld, I was checking out an used bookstore I like today and not only found a copy of Colour of Magic with the Kirby cover (bringing my hunt for them up to 15% 24% complete) but also a Discworld companion guide (old one though, from around the time of Carpe Jugulum).

[dehro]

my first book was...I think it was guards, guards! in italian..then I found a few more in english and on my next trip to holland I went away with an empty trolley-bag and came home happy :smallbiggrin:. big fan ever since.

Well... I don't know how Pterry feels nor how I should feel but I'm afraid we can't expect an Alzheimer cure in the next few years. And even though I guess it's hard to say I don't think he'll be able to keep writing for too long. So either he ties it up, leaves it open or someone else will pick up the torch... And I'm not happy with any of these options. :smallfrown:
1)tying it up... on one hand, it doesn't really need to. on the other it would be nice in an unhappily shuffling along ever after kinda style.
The negative side of this would be that he would definitely crush our hopes of seeing yet another book, just for the fun of it..no matter if they do find a cure.
2)leave it open...yeah..why not..in the hope people will bloody well leave it alone.
3)somebody else?? eww..it would be forever marred by the commercial "let's make use of the name" approach...a bit like the Bourne books written by Van Lustbader instead of by Ludlum, or the squeezing water from stones that C.Tolkien has been doing lately...or Clive Cussler..
I like to think TPratchett writes because he likes writing and regaling us with his creations..and that the money he's showered with is just an irrelevant byproduct. (which I know is stupid, but still..)

on a more commercial note: I'm still slapping myself in the face for not having bought "once more with footnotes**" when the price was "only" around 100$ and I could actually afford it.

[Erloas]

I can't remember the first... I think it was Small Gods, but The Fifth Elephant is also possible and I know Thief of Time was close to when I started. It wasn't so much by choice as it was that those where the books the college library had (at least checked in) when my cousin told me I should read his books.

As for most people starting with Going Postal... I suppose that mostly depends on how old you are. Most people I know started reading his books long before Going Postal was released.

If I remember the articles correctly, I thought the type of Alzheimer's that Pratchett has is more of a fine motor skills type, rather then the loosing the mind type. In that it would keep him from typing his stories before it would keep him from being able to come up with them, which of course could be bypassed with someone (or a good voice to chat program) to dictate to.

[Kato]

If I remember the articles correctly, I thought the type of Alzheimer's that Pratchett has is more of a fine motor skills type, rather then the loosing the mind type. In that it would keep him from typing his stories before it would keep him from being able to come up with them, which of course could be bypassed with someone (or a good voice to chat program) to dictate to.

No, I'm afraid his mental abilites are also affected by his disease. Not saying it's entirely gone bad yet but e.g. if you listen to the lecture he ave (kind of) at trinity college he says something along those lines.
Otherwise it'd really be a small isuue as long as it's not endangering his life but... yeah..

[rakkoon]

My first was Reaper Man...read it six times now...need to read it again soon.

[Borgh]

hi, i'm going to post this, please don't hurt me.
http://onebit.us/images/img1421.jpg

The one I liked best is probably Nation and after that...no idea tbh, they are all awesome. Maybe Thud!.

[Ceric]

:smalleek:

I'm not going to kill you. But, uh, where do you live?

Jokes aside, I wish it was easier to get the copies with the awesome British covers here. The American covers are boring.

My favorite Discworld books are a five-way tie between Night Watch, Going Postal, Reaper Man, Hogfather, and Jingo :smallcool: Thud!'s good too.

[Kato]

Why would we kill you? (without making you give us your address first so we can steal the books afterwards. Also, we'd have to fight each other over them afterwards. What a bloody mess)


But Ceric, you only get poor American covers. We can get poor German covers and poor German translations. Who's the real victim here?

[Dvandemon]

Is it just me, or does it seem 'Going Postal' often turns out to be one of (if not the) the first Discworld books people read?
It certainly was my introduction to the series...

Mine was The Wee Free Men. Going Postal was at least past my first five.
Remember the villain in Men at Arms, who had proofs of Carrot being the rightful heir to Ankh-Morpork throne? Carrot kills him without a single word. He then makes the proofs disappear.

Is that the only lie he's ever told?

[Thufir]

hi, i'm going to post this, please don't hurt me.
http://onebit.us/images/img1421.jpg

The one I liked best is probably Nation and after that...no idea tbh, they are all awesome. Maybe Thud!.

Why would I want to hurt you? My parents have all those books and I've read all of them multiple times.
The only Pratchett book I've never read is The Unadulterated Cat.

Edit @^: IIRC, he doesn't lie about it. He says something like "I must have put them down somewhere."

[BiblioRook]

I think that comment about wanting to kill him was directed at me as I mentioned how I'm actively looking for the British covers (and slowly at that, I think I only have 6-7 at the moment)
Surprisingly, I believe I got them all from the same bookstore (except for one I found in a Thrift store). I don't know where they come from, but I only ever see them there one at a time if at all. It's a mystery.

Even then, that's nothing. One of my friends apparently basically has the complete set of British 1st editions, handed down to her by her mother who bought them when abroad
Makes me wonder if she attempted to keep up the collection, getting the books that came out after the rest were purchased.

[Borgh]

the "don't hurt me" was directed at anyone with a smaller and/or not as Kirby collection as I.

As for the brittish covers: I actively looked for them but usually that wasn't that hard, did you try Amazon yet? their selection is usually broad enugh that you can choose between different versions. I filled the gaps in my collection that way (well, dutch amazon-like store anyway)

[BiblioRook]

I honestly never checked.
See, the idea of building this collection solely on findings from Used Bookstores and Thrift shops makes it all the more meaningful to me (no to mention funner), just looking for them and buying them online seems way too easy.

It would be different if I were going for a book I actually intended to read but couldn't find anywhere (like Strata, still haven't gotten around to getting a copy of that), but I already own and read copies of all the Discworld books. I'm essentially just building a whole second set of them solely for the sake of collecting something.


Besides, I hate buying books online if I can help it. I always feel I'm never assured the actual quality of the book other then a rough ballpark. That and with buying things with subtle differences to things like different covers, most online booksellers don't really bother to elaborate on such things. As much as I hate saying this, at least on ebay you occasionally get a photo of the actual product.

[dehro]

I think I only own british cover paperbacks... (except for a couple of the newest books which I bought hardcover)..
I never knew that that was special.. just bought them the way I found them (most of them bought either in amsterdam or england)...
I also suppose most brits will have those same covers/copies... so..what sparked the, I suppose, american craze about the british covers? are the american ones that bad?

[WalkingTarget]

I think I only own british cover paperbacks... (except for a couple of the newest books which I bought hardcover)..
I never knew that that was special.. just bought them the way I found them (most of them bought either in amsterdam or england)...
I also suppose most brits will have those same covers/copies... so..what sparked the, I suppose, american craze about the british covers? are the american ones that bad?

I wouldn't call the American covers bad per se. It's just that Paul Kidby is a genius and the covers have much more character to them (at least my friends and I think so). Compare the American cover for Thud!
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2007/1266-1.jpg

To the British one
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Terry_Pratchett_-_Thud_0385608675.jpg

The former just looks generic and boring to me. All of the recent American covers have that pseudo-engraved look to them (hell, the Unseen Academicals cover looks more like a volleyball game than soccer/football).

[Borgh]

I honestly never checked.
See, the idea of building this collection solely on findings from Used Bookstores and Thrift shops makes it all the more meaningful to me (no to mention funner), just looking for them and buying them online seems way too easy.

It would be different if I were going for a book I actually intended to read but couldn't find anywhere (like Strata, still haven't gotten around to getting a copy of that), but I already own and read copies of all the Discworld books. I'm essentially just building a whole second set of them solely for the sake of collecting something.


Besides, I hate buying books online if I can help it. I always feel I'm never assured the actual quality of the book other then a rough ballpark. That and with buying things with subtle differences to things like different covers, most online booksellers don't really bother to elaborate on such things. As much as I hate saying this, at least on ebay you occasionally get a photo of the actual product.

same for me but sometimes stores just don't have a certain book and then I order it, just for the sake of completeness.

Strata is quite a nice book, you can see a glimmer of the Pratchett genius in there but otherwise its almost a different author. also o/\o for the collection thing.

I'm surprised you have trouble with online bookshops, so far my experience has nothing but positive and i know from experience you are allowed to complain, maybe it depends on where you live as Holland is quite big on Customers Rights.

[Elder Tsofu]

... Americans don't get Paul Kidby's covers?
I really feel for you poor sods.

[Radar]

... Americans don't get Paul Kidby's covers?
I really feel for you poor sods.
This truly is sad. Reading all this, I think I'm in luck to have original cover arts and fairly good translations, where I live.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

In Canada we get the British covers, not the American covers.

[MoonCat]

I like the Harper covers, was Kidby the one who illustrated the Last Hero? Or was that Kirby, and he was the one who drew those awful crowded old British ones?

[BiblioRook]

Thud is a poor example of an American cover as it's probably the best one we got. (That and some editions also include the picture on the other cover as in insert right after the cover, I don't know why but Thud is the only book like this that I know of)

Most American covers look more like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZQv01z7vL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Eldan]

Huh. Even we get the English covers. I think even on the German editions.

[BiblioRook]

Hmm, talking of book covers. Looking around on Google Image search I found an edition I never heard of before I thought interesting.

http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz283/NoCoolUserName/LookoutMountainBookstore/ColourOfMagicUL.jpg

It's done in fake leather, the site it was on refured to it as the 'Unseen Library' edition

[Radar]

(...)

It's done in fake leather, the site it was on refured to it as the 'Unseen Library' edition
Do they bite? :smalltongue:

[BiblioRook]

For their price they should, investigating them a bit they seem to go from $50 (Witches Abroad, Moving Pictures) to $375 (Colour of Magic)
I'm not even sure if a full set is avalable

[Zar Peter]

Huh. Even we get the English covers. I think even on the German editions.

I just checked, the german hardcover of Thud and Making Money is the US version, before this we got the english ones.

[Elder Tsofu]

I like the Harper covers, was Kidby the one who illustrated the Last Hero? Or was that Kirby, and he was the one who drew those awful crowded old British ones?

Josh Kirby drew the old covers (more or less until he died If I recall correctly), and Paul Kidby the new (like the last hero).
I quite like the Kirby covers, they've sort of grown on me - Kidby's are more epic though.

[BiblioRook]

Kirby is special because he seems so ingrained with Discworld, at least that's what it feels like to me.
But I would be lying if I said I pefered Kirby's art over Kidby
And both are far better then the vague clip-art covers we Americans get

[Eldan]

I just checked, the german hardcover of Thud and Making Money is the US version, before this we got the english ones.

Yeah, I knew we had the Kirby ones, but I switched to English before Kidby covers started. Interesting that they aren't using him.

[An Enemy Spy]

Thud is a poor example of an American cover as it's probably the best one we got. (That and some editions also include the picture on the other cover as in insert right after the cover, I don't know why but Thud is the only book like this that I know of)

Most American covers look more like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZQv01z7vL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

I don't mind those covers. Seeing the characters plastered all over the front of books always influences how I imagine them. Then when I see the covers everybody looks wrong.
Also, I may be alone here but I really don't like the british covers all that much. They're so busy and crowded it makes my eyes water from looking at them.

[GloatingSwine]

Kirby is special because he seems so ingrained with Discworld, at least that's what it feels like to me.
But I would be lying if I said I pefered Kirby's art over Kidby
And both are far better then the vague clip-art covers we Americans get

Josh Kirby was already famous as a fantasy artist before he started doing covers for PTerry's books, and there was largely always an understanding that he would vaguely listen to the description of the book and then paint whatever the hell he wanted and hopefully it would have some tangental relationship to the content of the book. (there's even a joke about that in The Light Fantastic.)

If you actually take the time to look at the pictures, they're hugely detailed and intricate, and excellent works of art, and I still rather prefer them to Paul Kidby, who took a little while to actually get his own theme going. The Night Watch cover was great, with the riff on the Rembrandt painting on the rear cover, but doing the same trick again with Monstrous Regiment didn't really work (and oddly I quite like that one, despite it being almost as unpopular as Unseen Academicals). It wasn't until Thud that he really picked up his game.

[Zar Peter]

Yeah, I knew we had the Kirby ones, but I switched to English before Kidby covers started. Interesting that they aren't using him.

They used The original Night Watch cover, just Thud and Making Money was different. Funny.

[Eldan]

Strange. Did the publisher change, perhaps?

[dehro]

I loved going over the Kirby covers AFTER having read the book, and try and find out who everybody was and what scenes were depicted. an amazing ammount of stuff from the book managed to find it's way on each single cover, each time.

[Eldan]

And quite a few stupid mistakes, too. One I've heard about (but couldn't confirm) was that there was apparently one version where Twoflower literally had "four eyes".

[T-O-E]

My copy has him with 4 eyes, and I only bought that just over a year ago.

[GloatingSwine]

And quite a few stupid mistakes, too. One I've heard about (but couldn't confirm) was that there was apparently one version where Twoflower literally had "four eyes".

See previous point about Kirby painting whatever the hell he liked. It was probably patiently explained to him that Twoflower actually wore glasses, he just ignored it and did his own thing, as he was wont to do.

[An Enemy Spy]

And quite a few stupid mistakes, too. One I've heard about (but couldn't confirm) was that there was apparently one version where Twoflower literally had "four eyes".

That's true! I saw it at the library two days ago.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

That's true! I saw it at the library two days ago.

Aye, that's the version I have!

[Elder Tsofu]

I was really confused about two-flower and his eyes when I started reading, partially due to looking at the cover for reference. :smallwink: