What level should you introdue an artifact?

[Shinizak]

What level should you introduce an artifact? I have a campaign running, that I'd like try working with an artifact, specifically a staff of the magi, maybe others, so what are your thoughts on it?

p.s. I realize that artifacts shouldn't be random generated treasure, I just want to know what level is a good level.

[Psyren]

Level 1. It worked for Frodo :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

Whenever you want. The deck of many things, for instance, is hilarious at level 1, and is much more fun then than at an appropriate level.

[gbprime]

Remember, there's nothing that says they have the ability to use or recognize the artifact at low level. Perhaps it has requirements or only "turns on" later or they only eventually realize what it truly is. Until then, it appears to be some lesser item of a similar type. (Which is how rings of elemental command work.)

[Boci]

Level 1. It worked for Frodo :smalltongue:

Arguably a legacy item not an artifact.

As for what level, depneds entierly on what the artifact does.

[Diarmuid]

There is no one rule of thumb that will apply to all scenarios. A lot depends on what the artifact does, whether the PC's have the capacity to use it, and what the point of it being there is.

A Staff of the Magi IMO is a pretty..well...mundane artifact. Now, while that lends itself to molding its history to your world, the item itself is pretty straightforward.

[Tyndmyr]

Arguably a legacy item not an artifact.

As for what level, depneds entierly on what the artifact does.

His sword, perhaps. Awesome, but not ungodly so.

His ring? Almost definitely artifact.

[Boci]

His sword, perhaps. Awesome, but not ungodly so.

That was a +1 shortsword that glowed when orcs or goblins were nearby. Neither artifact nor legacy weapon.


His ring? Almost definitely artifact.

All it did for him make him invisible and slowly drive him insane. Sauron would have taken over Middle Earth with it, so some difference between the two prevented Frodo from properly harnassing the rings power, but it is debate whether that thing was will, aligment or power.

[Ormur]

We got one on level 5. It was a huge red stone that didn't seem to do anything but attract lots of scary men in black robes or spiky armour. That's until we tried to cast spells through it and found out what it actually was.

So yes, plot important artefacts can be introduced pretty much whenever. Actually useful things are trickier, not to mention dangerous.

[DisgruntledDM]

Whenever you want. The deck of many things, for instance, is hilarious at level 1, and is much more fun then than at an appropriate level.

The Deck is ALWAYS hilarious.

[Psyren]

All it did for him make him invisible and slowly drive him insane. Sauron would have taken over Middle Earth with it, so some difference between the two prevented Frodo from properly harnassing the rings power, but it is debate whether that thing was will, aligment or power.

Degree of usability by parties other than the creator is not what constitutes an artifact. In fact, most artifacts are usable by people other than their intended owner, though calamity usually ensues.

[Boci]

Degree of usability by parties other than the creator is not what constitutes an artifact. In fact, most artifacts are usable by people other than their intended owner, though calamity usually ensues.

Exactly, hence the case for the ring being a legacy item, not an artifact.

[Psyren]

Exactly, hence the case for the ring being a legacy item, not an artifact.

I fail to see how. We should probably take it to PM though.

[valadil]

There are a lot of things that can be an artifact. Giving out +10 vorpal nunchucks of gruesome disembowelment at level 5 is probably a bad idea. Giving out a scale that Tiamat shed, which is undeniably cool but yields no mechanical benefit would be fine at any level.

[Tyndmyr]

Degree of usability by parties other than the creator is not what constitutes an artifact. In fact, most artifacts are usable by people other than their intended owner, though calamity usually ensues.

Others could have used it. Galadriel is one such example. It wouldn't have been a good thing at all, mind you, but it's something that doesn't at all fit a legacy explanation.

Artifacts have to seem amazing at the level you give them out. Therefore, minor artifacts stop being interesting surprisingly early. Weapon/armor stuff should be given out somewhat before they could just buy similarly awesome stuff. Otherwise, not interesting. Special and wierd artifacts that have no analog are the bestest kind, and can be given out whenever.

[gbprime]

Exactly, hence the case for the ring being a legacy item, not an artifact.

I'm on the "i doubt this" bandwagon. The One Ring clearly had more powers that were unlocked by having the Leadership feat and X ranks of Diplomacy as prerequisites. Or something like that.

[Kobold-Bard]

Whenever you like. Artefacts are by design DM controlled. Give them it at level 1 with some basic powers (maybe a 1/session GOoJF Card power) and let it unlock new powers as they prove themselves worthy etc. similar to the Ring of Elemental Command.

Either that or give them the Deck of Many Things and watch them try to rationalise using it :smallbiggrin:

[Boci]

Others could have used it. Galadriel is one such example. It wouldn't have been a good thing at all, mind you, but it's something that doesn't at all fit a legacy explanation.

Why not? Wouldn't Galadriel have been of high level as well?


I'm on the "i doubt this" bandwagon. The One Ring clearly had more powers that were unlocked by having the Leadership feat and X ranks of Diplomacy as prerequisites. Or something like that.

Huh? How is that interpretation any clearer than the legacy item's, "you need to be more powerful to gain the item's full power"?

[WarKitty]

Others could have used it. Galadriel is one such example. It wouldn't have been a good thing at all, mind you, but it's something that doesn't at all fit a legacy explanation.

Artifacts have to seem amazing at the level you give them out. Therefore, minor artifacts stop being interesting surprisingly early. Weapon/armor stuff should be given out somewhat before they could just buy similarly awesome stuff. Otherwise, not interesting. Special and wierd artifacts that have no analog are the bestest kind, and can be given out whenever.

Artifacts should be amazing, but don't give out artifacts with permanent negative effects that the player's can't deal with. It's no fun when your PC gets screwed over for no reason.


The Deck is ALWAYS hilarious.

I must disagree with this. We got it at level 5. We're lucky we even managed to identify it, and it's been nothing but a pointless nuisance, because we have absolutely no way to deal with any of the effects and it's likely if any member draws from it that we'll end with a TPK.

[Tyndmyr]

Whenever you like. Artefacts are by design DM controlled. Give them it at level 1 with some basic powers (maybe a 1/session GOoJF Card power) and let it unlock new powers as they prove themselves worthy etc. similar to the Ring of Elemental Command.

Either that or give them the Deck of Many Things and watch them try to rationalise using it :smallbiggrin:

See, the fun with the DoMT at level 1 is...it's horribly crazy, but the bad stuff doesn't matter as much as it does later. So, your char dies. It sucks, but you're not as attached as you were later. Same with losing gear. But say, getting a keep? At level one? Freaking awesome, and a source of endless plot hooks.

All the randomness and fun, without the campaign destruction that happens if you use it later.

[Fouredged Sword]

I always saw the one ring as the big bad's item familiar with contingent true reserection. Without it he lost all his ranks in the rule the world skill.

[gbprime]

Huh? How is that interpretation any clearer than the legacy item's, "you need to be more powerful to gain the item's full power"?

Because you can break and repair legacy items as well as make new ones. Artifacts can only be destroyed by singular means and you can't just whip up a replacement.

[Boci]

Because you can break and repair legacy items as well as make new ones. Artifacts can only be destroyed by singular means and you can't just whip up a replacement.

In that respect it resembles an artifact, yes, but not in how different indeviduals gain different levels of power from it.

[Psyren]

In that respect it resembles an artifact, yes, but not in how different indeviduals gain different levels of power from it.

I answered this point via PM and will do so again here - Asmodeus and Orcus can do more with their respective rods than any other cult leader, arch-outsider, or even deity.

[gbprime]

In that respect it resembles an artifact, yes, but not in how different indeviduals gain different levels of power from it.

That's true of bardic instruments too, but that doesn't make them legacy items.

nothing states that an artifact can't use the mechanic of a prerequisite track to unlock abilities. The more important characteristic is the world shaking power and singular epic method of destruction.

[Boci]

I answered this point via PM and will do so again here - Asmodeus and Orcus can do more with their respective rods than any other cult leader, arch-outsider, or even deity.

But its not just Sauron who could use the ring for more than just invisibility. Galadriel for starters, and wasn't it hinted that if Gandalf was the bearer of the ring he would go down a similar path?


nothing states that an artifact can't use the mechanic of a prerequisite track to unlock abilities.

Nothing states the DM cannot decide that a legacy item can only be destroyed in a certain way.


The more important characteristic is the world shaking power and singular epic method of destruction.

And here where we disagree. I personally think that the varying level of power the ring bestows upon its barer to be its most important aspect, not the fact that the plot required the fellowship to journey to mount doom. Because lets face it, if Gimli's method had worked, the film trilogy would have sucked.

[ericgrau]

Artifacts are there to break the game on purpose for the sake of a plot, so do it whenever you want. The staff of the magi OTOH, might be fairly priced as a magic item around 200k gp give or take, except for the spell absorption ability which could be very useful in a long campaign or make no difference in a shorter campaign. So it could be appropriate for a level 18-20 character... and yet Raistlin got it at, what, level 3? OTOH it advanced with him instead of being uber right away. In the end minor artifacts that are borderline magic items can still be used to break the game on purpose if you give them to low enough level characters.

[Psyren]

But its not just Sauron who could use the ring for more than just invisibility. Galadriel for starters, and wasn't it hinted that if Gandalf was the bearer of the ring he would go down a similar path?

Answered this via PM too, and since the thread is thoroughly derailed I might as well keep on here.

If Raziel got ahold of Asmodeus' Rod, he could probably do more with it than your average evil cleric too. And just like Galadriel, if he chose to use it he would begin a massive crusade against the Enemy, and maybe even be successful. And just like Galadriel again, he would inevitably become worse than the very thing he was fighting.

THAT is what Artifacts do - at least, the ones created by the BBEG.

[Boci]

What do you think would happen if Raziel tried to use Rod of Asmodeus?

He could use it, all he'd need it immunity to inflict critical wounds. After that, any changes (apart from an aligment shift to evil is they weren't already so) are up to the DM.


He is powerful (like Galadriel), so the rod would obey him for a time (like the Ring would.) They might even defeat their respective Enemies. Until one day, when both of them end up worse than the Enemy they were fighting.

But the rod of aspmodeus would also grants these abilities to a commoner (provided they also had a +1 chainshurt of soul fire or something so they didn't die from touching it). The ring did not grant its full power to the hobits (nor did it kill them).

[Gavinfoxx]

The idea behind artefacts is not that they are 'crazy powerful', but they *break the normal rules for doing things magically*. Make it clear that THIS is the definition you are using, and introduce some interesting but not overly powerful ones quite early.

[Malbordeus]

never? unless its a sphere of annihilation that cant be controlled.

[Tyndmyr]

Because you can break and repair legacy items as well as make new ones. Artifacts can only be destroyed by singular means and you can't just whip up a replacement.

Legacy items require the whole attunement to a character thing. Sure, you can create and destroy them, or reattune them, but they are character focused items. A char attunes himself, and over time unlocks the power they have.

There is no such reference for the one ring...or indeed, any of the rings of power. It is nearly indestructable, it works on absolutely anyone without any sort of attunement, and in the hands of anyone of sufficient power, is key to massive power and essentially evil winningness. What exactly sufficient power is isn't certain, but we've got a list of diverse eligible folks. That doesn't match the legacy system at all.

[Callista]

It depends on the artifact. That's been said already.

But you can definitely do it at level 1, especially in the case of a good party and an evil artifact which they will likely want to destroy because it can only be used for evil by evil characters. Of course they'll be targeted for it the second word gets out they have it, which is where the fun starts.

[Ormur]

Regarding the one ring I think I saw somewhere that even Frodo could have claimed the ring as he was probably about to do before loosing it. The only thing needed was maybe just a realization of it's power and sufficient determination to wield it. I'd say it's an artefact, but the most important ability just isn't obvious as opposed to the invisibility effect. Artefacts also don't need to be world shatteringly powerful, just unique or not replicable.

[gbprime]

In a previous campaign of mine, the characters encountered an artifact at level 3. They unearthed a poor fellow who was crushed in a rockfall and found a magic ring on him. It identified as a Ring of Fire Resistance Major, and one of the characters wore it. But they noticed as they leveled up that even fire attacks doing more than 30 damage did nothing to the wearer.

So they took it to the regional (vampire) arch mage for her to look at. She told them it was actually a Ring of Energy Immunity and bought it from them for a small fortune plus a favor or two in the future.

She recognized it as the Ring of Kaervas, a super-powerful ring of elemental command that could command an epic level Efreeti Sultan. There was just the small matter of freeing the Efreeti sultan from imprisonment... which she researched and then hired the PC's to do. :smalleek:

[Akal Saris]

Introduce it whenever you think it will lead to a fun game. I think the earliest I've put an artifact in game was around level 4. It was the magical orb that magically defended the capitol that the PCs had to defend, and then through the sacrifice of every mage in the kingdom except the PC bearing the orb, was used to hold the BBEG (Sauron!) after his defeat. Pretty cliche, to be honest, but the PC still remembers it quite well over a decade later (as do I, obviously!)

Sidenote on legacy weapons:
This 'legacy weapon' argument that Boci is firmly holding to bugs me because legacy weapons don't even exist in most versions of D&D. If it's 2E, there's no such thing as a legacy item, so the One Ring is an artifact. If it's 4E, same deal.

If it's 3.5, well, then I think it's still a goddamn artifact, because it's a near-indestructible item that grants cosmic power to a specific set of powerful individuals. That's quite an order of magnitude difference from a Ring of Protection +1 that gradually turns into Bilbo's Ring of Invisibility and Protection +5 as Frodo unlocks its powers by learning its history ("What? You got it in a riddle contest?! That means I can turn invisible now!") and by defeating level-appropriate encounters.