Dragon CR when given Sorceror Levels (3.5)

[Noedig]

I'm having trouble finding how to adjust the CR of a true dragon when it is given class levels. Is it a fixed increase in CR or is sort of played by ear? Help would be greatly appreciated.

[Quietus]

If the dragon's got Sorcerer casting already it's 1:1 increase. If not, then they're non-associated (technically, stupid as those rules are), and you get 2 sorcerer levels for every 1 CR increase, up until sorc levels = HD, then it's 1:1.

[Boci]

My guess would be 1 for 1 bases as they increase the dragon's inate casting.

[Escheton]

Fixed, +1 per lvl.
Though one should note that having too many sorc lvls compared to his natural hd and size cat will bring this down a bit.
An older dragon is simply more powerfull then a young one with sorc lvls.
Partly because age also improves casterlvl.

[Noedig]

So lets say with a CR9 young adult red dragon, given 3 levels of sorcerer, would be a CR 12?

[Escheton]

Sounds about right. Provided it uses those spells to max effect.
Need any pointers on spells?

[Noedig]

Actually that would be awesome.

[Boci]

Prebuff with scintalazing scales to turn natural armour into deflection, open battle with a dispelling breath, enter melee, bite PCs for a few rounds, return to the air and deicde whether to buff up and re-enter melee or stay at range.

[Noedig]

Dispelling Breath?

[Boci]

Its from draconomicon, 4th level, combines dispel magic with a dragon's breath weapon.

[Noedig]

Nice. What kind of feats should a sorc dragon take?

[Boci]

Power attack, possibly mage bane, I think they gain a benefit from practised caster.

[Noedig]

The Practiced Spellcaster is a +4 or +2 caster level?

[ericgrau]

Feats
All dragons have one feat, plus additional feats based on Hit Dice just like any other creature. Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers.

I'd save power attack for the squishy casters though, since dragon attack bonus is good but not spectacular. Altertness and cleave are questionable. Add multi-attack to the list, which for some reason is listed elsewhere in the SRD as favored but not here. And it's good. Add any of your favorite splatbook feats of course. For some reason dragons are described as not favoring grappling, though they'd be good at it. Maybe that's fluff coming first. The bigger ones do still like to snatch and crush which use the grapple rules.

[Boci]

The Practiced Spellcaster is a +4 or +2 caster level?

+4, and I doubt its clear but whether they gain a benefit from the feat, but your the DM so you can just say they do.

[Runestar]

Sorc lvs aren't really worth 1:1 in my opinion, though they would be too cheap at 2:1 ratio since they do improve a key strength of the dragon.

My rationale is that bumping a dragon up to the next age category (+3 racial HD) often grants the exact same benefits as 2 lvs of sorc (+2 spellcaster lv), in addition to other benefits such as improved bab/saves/skills/dcs/stats and the like.

Likewise, there are other prcs which grant more benefits than sorc, such as abjurant champion (giving the dragon caster lv = bab!!!), or additional class features (like archmage or fatespinner).

The first lv of sorc might be worth +1cr (since it also brings elite array to the table), but I would give +2cr for every subsequent 3 sorc lvs.

However, past a certain point, they would cease to become dragons (too physically weak) and more like draconic spellcasters. Once their sorc spellcaster lv = cr, then it may be time to make sorc lvs associated.

Alternatively, just treat sorc lvs as non-associated until spellcaster lv = cr, then make it associated (as an exception to the normal rules, since dragons have way too many racial HD and would thus make a mockery of the normal non-associated class rules). :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

+4, and I doubt its clear but whether they gain a benefit from the feat, but your the DM so you can just say they do.

Why would it be unclear? If your Caster Level is less than your HD, you can benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. Dragons benefit rather a lot from it, in fact, as their low CL relative to CR makes them very vulnerable to PC dispelling and makes it harder to employ their magic offensively instead of solely for buffs.

[Escheton]

Good point actually, why settle for sorcerer when you can prestige up? There are even special prestige classes for dragons. Draconomicon I believe.

Clinging breath and entangling breath combined with a nice summoned bruiser works wonders if you are using hit and run tactics over direct full offence ground battle.

[Runestar]

There are even special prestige classes for dragons. Draconomicon I believe.

Even those prcs are fairly weak, because they tend to erode the dragons' physical prowess in exchange for some very minor benefits. For example, why take lvs in disciple of ashardalon when I could just tack on the half-fiend template? The class doesn't even work properly (caster lv = class lv?). Or dragon ascendent when there is already the quasi-deity template in deities and demigods?

The bigger question is - why ever take class lvs when the benefits of raw dragon HD outweigh those benefits any time of the day? The only time this is worthwhile would be specific dips (such as barb1 for rage and pounce, warblade for maneuvers, monk for wis to AC and evasion etc).

[tyckspoon]

The bigger question is - why ever take class lvs when the benefits of raw dragon HD outweigh those benefits any time of the day? The only time this is worthwhile would be specific dips (such as barb1 for rage and pounce, warblade for maneuvers, monk for wis to AC and evasion etc).

From an in-character perspective, perhaps because becoming more of a dragon can only be done by getting older (to the tune of hundreds of years for the more advanced age categories), while class levels can be gained actively? If there's some goal you want to achieve right now but need more power or skills to achieve, class levels are the way you're going to get it done in any sensible time frame.

I agree if you're just trying to manipulate the CR system to figure out what will best beat up people then age categories are the way to go, but that's a very narrow perspective. Especially when one is in the 'dragons are never just random encounters' camp of dragon design; class levels can be used to represent the dragon's personality and interests as well as making it a more dangerous opponent.

[Urpriest]

Or dragon ascendent when there is already the quasi-deity template in deities and demigods?

In this case, because quasi-deities happen to lack CR, and there isn't a RAW way for PCs to become them.

Most of the others, sure. Though Dragon hit dice aren't generally going to increase your casting by +1 per CR increase, especially in between age categories. And since casting is better than anything else...

[Runestar]

Especially when one is in the 'dragons are never just random encounters' camp of dragon design; class levels can be used to represent the dragon's personality and interests as well as making it a more dangerous opponent.

Possible, I admit I neglected to consider that in my haste to post. I suppose if say, the BBEG of your campaign is a dragon and you will be encountering it several times over the course of the adventure, class lvs would be a more feasible way of improving its toughness compared to advancing age categories (which fluffwise, requires hundreds of years). :smallsmile: