3.5p "fix"...Is it any good?

[Maho-Tsukai]

The recent thread reguarding banning tier 1 classes has inspired me to create a "fix" to 3.5p to reduce the ballance issues somewhat, although I know they will still exsist. The aim of this fix is to eliminate both the weakest and most powerful classes from 3.5e while still being able to model all the stock fantasy arctypes, thus creating a slightly smaller disparity between classes.(It will still exsist, but the power gap between say a tier 3 and tier 2 class will be far less noticable then say between a tier 5 and tier 1.) Since the disparity is smaller players will still feel like they are useful even though some disparity will be present.

This fix dose two main things, cuts out the most broken and most underpowered classes from the game and adds(some) pathfinder elements to the game. Below I will outline these additions and then proceed to the list of avalible base classes.

Rules changes:

-The crafting system is changed to the pathfinder crafting system, and the acoiated feats are added to the game, so mundane characterc can still craft magical items as in pathfinder.

-All classes with spellcasting or manuvers except Ranges, Paladins(all vairents) and Factotums use the standard one feat every three levels feat progression. All other classes(Including Rangers, paladins and Factotums) use the pathfinder feat progression of one feat every 2 levels.

-All non-metamagic pathfinder feats that do not exsist in 3.5e or improve 3.5e feats are selectable. All non-metamagic feats that where powerful in 3.5e but nerfed or weakened in pathfinder remain as their 3.5e version. Metamagic and metamagic feats remains as it is in 3.5e. All frank and K feats which follow the normal 3.5e feat system are also selectable.(So [combat] feats, which use a new system, are not.)

- Only certain base classes are allowed/exsist in this version fo 3.5p. Those classes will be listed later in this post.

-Epic Spellcasting and Epic Leadership are removed. All other epic cheese is illegal.

Other then those changes everything remains as it is in 3.5e, including the skill system and spells(So all spells use their 3.5e versions, not their pathfinder
duplicats.)

Base classes:

The folowing classes are the allowed base classes for this fix of 3.5e. Most classes remain the same but to moddle certain concepts some classes have been altered somewhat. If a class is changed in any way the changes will be listed with the class.

Arcane archtypes:

"Wizard(s)"-

Generalist Wizard:

"Wizard"(Sorcerer)(Changes: casting stat becomes int as appose to cha...uses the wizard's class skill list and profiencies instead of the sorcerer's. Can exchange spells known for a spell from the wiz/sorc list possessed in any written format(but cannot gain extra spells known..spells "learned" this way replace a already known spell rather then adding a bonus spell to their spells known. Scorls are not destroyed when used in this manner but the DCs for "learning" spells in this manner are as follows: Level 1: DC 2o, Level 2: DC 25, Level 3: DC 30, Level 4: DC 35, Level 5: DC 40, level 6: DC 45, Level 7: DC 50, Level 8: DC 55, level 9: DC 60). Gains scribe scroll. Dose not qualify for dragon feats....otherwise identacle to the sorcerer in every way)

Specalist Wizards:
(Changes- All: All "specalists" qualify for PrCs which require specalization such as Red Wizard and Master Specalist.)

Beguiler [Illusion/Enchantment specalist]
Dread Necromancer [Necromancy specalist] (Changes: Uses this spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162358) in place of the one given to it by Wizards. otherwise identacle to the standard class. Rebuking for DNs remains Cha based.)
Warmage[Evocation Specalist] (Changes: Uses this fix. ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346&highlight=warmage))
Summoner(Frank and K)[Conjuration Specalist]
(As for the other specalists I am looking for some homebrew classes to fit the bill. If somebody knows any good ones, please tell me.)

"Sorcerer"- Sorcerer

"Bard"- Bard

Divinen Archtypes:

"Cleric(s)"- 'Priest"(Cleric)(Changes: Loses all armor profiencies and weapon profiencies and gains wizard weapon profiency. Gains Sorcerer spells-per day, spellcasting progression and spells known. Casting stat is changed to Cha and turning/rebuking is instead wisdom based...but only for this class.)

"Cleric"(Favored Soul)(Changes: Casting stat becomes Wis and only Wis. Gains Heavy armor and cleric aligenment restrictions and aligenment spell restrictions. Other then those changes the class remains as it is.)

"Druid(s)"- "Druid"(Spirit Shaman)(Changes: Casting Stat becomes Wis and only Wis. Gains the aligenment restrictions of a 3.5e Druid. Otherwise identacle to the normal class)

"Wildshaper"(Wildshape ranger)(Changes: Is not considered a "ranger' and thus gets the 1 feat every three levels as appose to the 1 feat every 2 levels any other ranger would get.)

"Paladin(s)"- Paladin(Pathfinder Paladin)(Changes: Uses 3.5e skill system instead of pathfinder one and has the skill points of a 3.5e Paladin. Otherwise identacle to the pathfinder Paladin)

Anti-Paladin(Pathfinder Anti-Paladin)(Changes: Uses 3.5e skill system instead of pathfinder one and has the skill points of a 3.5e Paladin. Otherwise identacle to the pathfinder Anti-Paladin.)

Skillmonky archtypes-

"Theif"- "Rogue"(Pathfinder Rogue)(Changes: Uses 3.5e skill system and 3.5e rogue skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"General skillmonkey"- Factotum

Melee archtypes-

"Fighter(s)"- Warblade, Fighter(Pathfinder fighter)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e fighter skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Monk(s)"-Swordsage, "Monk"(Pathfinder Monk)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e Monk skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Ranger"- Ranger(Pathfinder Ranger)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e Monk skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Barbarian"- Barbarian(Pathfinder Barbarian)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e barbarian skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Knight(s)"- Crusader, Cavalier(Pathfinder Cavalier)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e Crusader skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

Before I run this I want to know, is this a good change? Dose it do what I want or fall flat on it's face? Would any of you run a game with these fixes? I want honest opinions.(Also, ignore all spelling/gramar errors as I am on a machine with no spell check when I posted this.)

[Psyren]

I'm not familiar enough with Frank & K or Pathfinder to really comment on those sections; I just wanted to point out that Epic isn't that bad if you just remove the worst parts - Epic Spellcasting, Leadership, and Epic Skill Uses (and one of those isn't even unique to epic.)

[Tvtyrant]

What is your goal for campaigns that go over level 20? Just have them stay that level? :smallconfused:

I like the generalist wizards ability to swap out spells know but as a replacement. What you could do is have the scroll not disappear when learned, and then make learning scrolls have a high DC (like DC20 at level 1 spells, 25 at level 2, 30 at level 3, 35 at level 4, with a DC of 60 at level 9). Then you get both the wizard and the sorcerer together, and it allows for difficult spell swapping.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, I suppose I can allow epic provided I ban epic spellcasting and the other cheep stuff. Also, that sounds really interesting, actually. I may just have to add that in.

[true_shinken]

-All Frank and K PrCs are selectable.

I stopped reading here.
You are trying to remove the most powerful stuff in the game while keeping access to something poorly designed to put everyone at tier 1 level?

[Maho-Tsukai]

I have little experence with Frank and K PrCs and only have used them in epic gestalt games where EVERYBODY was overpowered so I did not realize they where that bad. However, I may as well remove them if they are that bad, so yeah.

[Tyndmyr]

The recent thread reguarding banning tier 1 classes has inspired me to create a quick and dirty "fix" to 3.5 to reduce the ballance issues somewhat, although I know they will still exsist. The aim of this fix is to eliminate both the weakest and most powerful classes from 3.5e while still being able to model all the stock fantasy arctypes, thus creating a slightly smaller disparity between classes.(It will still exsist, but the power gap between say a tier 3 and tier 2 class will be far less noticable then say between a tier 5 and tier 1.) Since the disparity is smaller players will still feel like they are useful even though some disparity will be present.

The following system is probably not quick and dirty.


This fix dose two main things, cuts out the most broken and most underpowered classes from the game and adds(some) pathfinder elements to the game. Below I will outline these additions and then proceed to the list of avalible base classes.

PF has some interesting stuff. Some of it is worth stealing. It doesn't really do anything to remedy caster/non caster imbalance, though.


-The crafting system is changed to the pathfinder crafting system, and the acoiated feats are added to the game, so mundane characterc can still craft magical items as in pathfinder.

In practice, I've only ever seen this ignored. Even in PF, melee chars still need their feats, badly.


-All classes with spellcasting, sphere acssess or manuvers except Ranges, Paladins(all vairents) and Factotums use the standard one feat every three levels feat progression. All other classes(Including Rangers, paladins and Factotums) use the pathfinder feat progression of one feat every 2 levels.

It helps a little. Feats are nice. But the fighter gets lots of feats, and is not awesome. It's not going to be that huge.


-All non-metamagic pathfinder feats that do not exsist in 3.5e or improve 3.5e feats are selectable. All non-metamagic feats that where powerful in 3.5e but nerfed or weakened in pathfinder remain as their 3.5e version. Metamagic and metamagic feats remains as it is in 3.5e. All frank and K feats which follow the normal 3.5e feat system are also selectable.(So [combat] feats, which use a new system, are not.)

Occasionally useful. Most PF feats are not competitive with 3.5 feats, though, with a lot of melee feats being nerfed and such. So, not a huge diff. The Tome options are powerful, but I seem to only recall combat and skill feats. If the first are not allowed, then the rest would seem to be an overall increase in the skill system, but not a huge balancing factor.


-All Frank and K PrCs are selectable.

Hope you like rocket-tag.


-"Epic" dose not exsist. The highest level obtainable is level 20.

Does, not dose. I ignore most typos, but that one showed up repeatedly.

Reasonable. Epic tends to be either ignored, or modified in a few ways(drop epic spellcasting, etc).


-Core races use pathfinder stat bonuses instead of their own, including humans.(So humans thus get +2 to one stat of their choice and all other races use the stat bonuses they get in pathfinder rather then the ones they get in 3.5e)

Interesting, but a general power boost to all. Not really a balance thing as such.


The folowing classes are the allowed base classes for this fix of 3.5e. Most classes remain the same but to moddle certain concepts some classes have been altered somewhat. If a class is changed in any way the changes will be listed with the class.

Arcane archtypes:

"Wizard(s)"-

Generalist Wizard:

"Wizard"(Sorcerer)(Changes: casting stat becomes int as appose to cha...uses the wizard's class skill list and profiencies instead of the sorcerer's. Can exchange spells known for a spell from the wiz/sorc list possessed in any written format(but cannot gain extra spells known..spells "learned" this way replace a already known spell rather then adding a bonus spell to their spells known.). Gains scribe scroll. Dose not qualify for dragon feats....otherwise identacle to the sorcerer in every way)

So, a sorc/wiz hybrid. You need to do a full writeup, this is confusing. You also need to specify PF or 3.5 as your base here, since you're allowing PF classes in part.


Specalist Wizards:
(Changes- All: All "specalists" qualify for PrCs which require specalization such as Red Wizard and Master Specalist.)

Beguiler [Illusion/Enchantment specalist]
Dread Necromancer [Necromancy specalist] (Changes: Uses this spell list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162358) in place of the one given to it by Wizards. otherwise identacle to the standard class.)
Warmage[Evocation Specalist] (Changes: Uses this fix. ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346&highlight=warmage))
Summoner(Frank and K)[Conjuration Specalist]
(As for the other specalists I am looking for some homebrew classes to fit the bill. If somebody knows any good ones, please tell me.)

Painful. Beguiler covers two schools? Not all schools are created equal?


"Sorcerer"- Sorcerer

Who would take this? Your wizard variant is the same thing, but better. I suppose it gives you the social focus, but a bad primary stat and no bonus feat is basically a build trap.


"Warlock"- Conduit of the Lower Planes (Frank and K)(Changes: Open to any race instead of just fiends and tieflings. Allows the character to qualify for [fiend] feats even if they are not a fiendish race. Otherwise identacle)

The regular warlock is quite balanced.


Divinen Archtypes:

"Cleric(s)"- 'Priest"(Shugenja)( Changes: Instead of element sense and element focus the Shugenja gains turn/rebuke as a cleric. Choses spells known from the cleric list instead of the shugenja list. The shugenja "order/school" is replaced by two cleric domains and the school/order slots become domain spell slots. Casting stat remains Cha but turn/rebuke is based on wisdom instead of cha. Can spontainously cast heals/inflicts. Japanese flavor is replaced by the class representing a "cloth wearing priest." Keeps the shugenja class skill list, shugenja spell progression, spells known and spells per-day. Gains 3.5e Cleric Aligenment restriction and aligenment spell restrictions. Like a shugenja, only wears robes/no armor profiency and has 3.5e wizard weapon profiency.)

Instead of all sorts of replacements, just list the changes to cleric. This is painful.


"Cleric"(Favored Soul)(Changes: Casting stat becomes Wis and only Wis. Gains Heavy armor and cleric aligenment restrictions. Other then those changes the class remains as it is.)

Alignment.


"Druid(s)"- "Druid"(Spirit Shaman)(Changes: Casting Stat becomes Wis and only Wis. Gains the aligenment restrictions of a 3.5e Druid. Otherwise identacle to the normal class)

Identical.


"Wildshaper"(Wildshape ranger)(Changes: Gains Druid Aligenment restrictions. otherwise identacle to the standard class....is not considered a "ranger' and thus gets the 1 feat every three levels as appose to the 1 feat every 2 levels any other ranger would get.)

What's the value of adding all these alignment restrictions?


"Paladin(s)"- Paladin(Pathfinder Paladin)(Changes: Uses 3.5e skill system instead of pathfinder one and has the skill points of a 3.5e Paladin. Otherwise identacle to the pathfinder Paladin)

"Paladin of Freedom"(Pathfinder Paladin)(Changes: Uses Paladin of freedom spell list in place of the Pathfinder Paladin list. All abilites based around lawful-ness changed to be based on chaos. Uses the Paladin of freedom code of counduct. Uses 3.5e skill system and a 3.5e Paladin's skill points. Otherwise, identacle to the pathfinder Paladin.)

"Paladin of Tyranny"(Pathfinder Anti-Paladin)(Changes: Uses Paladin of Tyranny spell list in place of the Pathfinder Anti-Paladin list. All abilites based around chaotic-ness changed to be based on law. Uses the Paladin of Tyranny code of counduct. Uses 3.5e skill system and a 3.5e Paladin's skill points. Otherwise, identacle to the pathfinder Anti-Paladin.)

"Paladin of Slaughter"(Pathfinder Anti-Paladin)(Changes: Uses 3.5e skill system instead of pathfinder one and has the skill points of a 3.5e Paladin. Otherwise identacle to the pathfinder Anti-Paladin.)

You've turned two character classes into four similar ones. Don't do this. This is not a simple fix at all any more.


Skillmonky archtypes-

"Theif"- "Rogue"(Pathfinder Rogue)(Changes: Uses 3.5e skill system and 3.5e rogue skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"General skillmonkey"- Factotum

Melee archtypes-

"Fighter(s)"- Warblade, Fighter(Pathfinder fighter)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e fighter skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Monk(s)"-Swordsage, "Monk"(Pathfinder Monk)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e Monk skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Ranger"- Ranger(Pathfinder Ranger)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e Monk skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Samurai"- Samurai (Frank and K)

One of these things is not like the others. Specifically, the Tome Samurai. It is blatantly broken when compared with the standard pathfinder classes(using 3.5 skills, no less).


"Barbarian"- Barbarian(Pathfinder Barbarian)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e barbarian skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

"Knight(s)"- Crusader, Cavalier(Pathfinder Cavalier)(Changes: Uses 3.5 skill system and 3.5e Crusader skill points. Otherwise identacle.)

Before I run this I want to know, is this a good change? Dose it do what I want or fall flat on it's face? Would any of you run a game with these fixes? I want honest opinions.(Also, ignore all spelling/gramar errors as I am on a machine with no spell check when I posted this.)

I'd never run a game with these changes. It does not do what you want at all.

Pathfinder is basically a reworked 3.5. It has some nifty ideas. It boosts overall power level slightly. It's not really a balancer.

The Tome classes are designed around the idea that if tier one chars can play rocket tag, EVERYONE should play rocket tag, with full auto rocket launchers.

None of this meshes together.

[Maho-Tsukai]

You do make good points. Like I said, this was basicly a "spir of the moment" type of thing I thought up in a matter of seconds and then continued to flesh out as I wrote it. It was not very thought out. I see now I have made quite a few errors. Most likely I will remove all frank and K related things and just stick to mixing pathfinder and 3.5e.

Also, as I said the aim is not total ballance. The aim is to have less of a gap/make everybody feel useful, not outright fill the gap. Also, if pathfinder changes and more feats is not enough to make mundane classes/non-fullcasters high tier 4 to tier 3 then what is? otr should I simply nerf casters even more? I am basicly trying to have a game with a mix of classes from tier 2-high tier 4, so everybody can feel at least somewhat useful. If I wanted to eliminate the gap entirely I would just play 1e or 4e.

[Tyndmyr]

Spell fixes. Or, for very low tier classes, class fixes.

It's not simple. A preferred method is to just ask your players not to break stuff. If someone wants to play a class below tier 3, suggest a similar one of tier 3 or higher, or give them a few nifty things to compensate. For instance, if someone wants to play a truenamer, fix the casting system, because the current one blows. Plenty of already existing fixes are out there.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but beyond martial adapts and Factoum there is no way to replicate certain mundane character types at tier 3-above. while ToB has melee fighters covered mundane Rogue/theif characters still lack proper representation at Tier 3. Likewise, there is an utter dearth of tier 3 divine casters....so some tier 2 is needed, in that department.

But a lot of this is not nessicary, I will admit.

However, some of this is still salvgable, I think. One way I can think of is to make casting "mana-based" using some of the mana-systems that have been made or the "spell points" system Pazio is making for pathfinder provided it actually weakens spellcasting. Another way would just be to refluff psionics and make more psionic powers that emulate some of the signature powers of casters.


Or I could use the pathfinder spell fixes for an easier fix. I was just weary about them at first because it would make the DN class a total blaster, for the most part...but I suppose the DN can take such a hit and still be playable since the sacrifice is kinda nessicary for some spells.

In addition perhaps I should make all the fullcasters sans the specalists a bit more MAD? As in have all of them possess 2 casting stats like the favored soul in 3.5e? Sorc("wiz") would have int and cha as their casting stats(int for bonus spells and spell-level castable and cha for DCs), favored souls(refluffed as clerics) would get cha and wis, again. The cloth based priest would be cut entirely or be Int/Wis ect...

Also, around what tier are the mundane pathfinder classes with the pathfinder feat progression? High tier 4? or below even that?