Yet another Pun-Pun thread

[Myth]

Recently I posted this in a thread but it was really off-topic. It's basically my position (which is an argumented opinion) on why Pun-Pun can't gain Divine Rank. No divine rank - no way to win vs Supreme Initiative and Salient Death. here it is:

...I also remain adamant that Pun-Pun is not RAW legal, by virtue of treating Ice Assasin as capable of replicating a Deity. A Deity is not a creature and the Divine Ranks are awarded based on a number of followers, they are not inherent to the Gods in 3.5. At most you'd create an Ice Assassin of an Outsider with 20 HD that looks like Bane for example.

The second loop that I don't agree with is making something a proxy, therefore losing your Divine Rank 1, then getting your Ice Assassin to make you a Proxy AGAIN to get that Divine Rank 1 again AND be able to recall your original DR from your own proxy. That's not RAW legal. You'd be a DR0 Proxy already and you won't be eligible for Proxification again. You can either recall your original Divine Rank back or stay as a DR0 Quasy Deity.

The third illogical assumption is that Divine Rank 21 and upward equals an Overdeity. In the Overdeity block we see that they are DR 21+ Gods and are to Gods as Gods are to mortals. But just because every Overdeity has DR21+ does not mean that every Deity that gets 21+ Divine Ranks is automatically an Overdeity!

Thoughts?

[AstralFire]

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

It directly equates DR 21+ to Overdeity.

Don't know enough one way or the other on your other points, but the fact that it says, "They are called overdeities," underneath the heading of DR 21+ rather than having a heading of "Overdeity" with "These have at least 21 DR," is a direct statement on Divine Rank 21 making you an overdeity.

[Sir Swindle89]

A Deity is not a creature and the Divine Ranks are awarded based on a number of followers, they are not inherent to the Gods in 3.5.

I'm pretty sure that's conjecture. There is no chart that lists number of followers per divine rank. It would be a very orderly multiverse indeed if every diety had enought followers to fit into only the brackets divisible by 5.

Also i want to play in your games, I'll pmp my leadership score and get me some divine rank!

[true_shinken]

Also, deities are creatures. They even have statblocks!

[Hyfigh]

What defines a creature in D&D? I think until you find something RAW that specifies that Dieties are not considered creatures you have to assume that all entities are creatures. There really isn't any other way to go with that considering there isn't RAW to support either case. Creatures simply aren't defined in the rules.


...The ice assassin possesses all of the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original...

So they can dupe a Diety, at least in my interpretation. That Diety has all the skills and abilities of the creature it was duplicated from.

As for the Proxy loop... That is something that, again, isn't spelled out one way or the other in RAW. It's one of those "the rules don't say I can't" type things.

It would seem to me that you could bypass this issue by simply having the Ice Assassin God make those squirrels the proxy's, then have the proxy's grant you their Divine Ranks to you. I see no rules on them stacking... :smallredface:

[Tyndmyr]

So they can dupe a Diety, at least in my interpretation. That Diety has all the skills and abilities of the creature it was duplicated from.


Skills and abilities are defined though, and divine rank is arguably neither.

And "the rules don't say I can't" is fairly invalid by RAW. This doesn't stop becoming a diety by itself, but it does stop that particular abuse.

I don't think the overdiety thing matters. It's a definition of overdieties. Likewise, followers are not required for DR. Even if they were, pun-pun could arrange followers.

[The Glyphstone]

Why do people persist in trying to 'prove' that Pun-Pun doesn't work? It's not supposed to work, but it can, and anyone actually using it should get a DMG upside the head. That's the point of TO, of which Pun-Pun is the very pinnacle, crafted and perfected by some very smart people with way too much time on their hands.

[ScionoftheVoid]

...I also remain adamant that Pun-Pun is not RAW legal, by virtue of treating Ice Assasin as capable of replicating a Deity.

It is capable of doing this, the necessary piece of said deity is even available in a standard spell component pouch!


A Deity is not a creature and the Divine Ranks are awarded based on a number of followers, they are not inherent to the Gods in 3.5.

False and variable, respectively. A deity most certainly is a creature (usually 20 hd Outsiders with about 30 class levels). 3.5 leaves it up to the DM how divinity is gained or increased, there is no RAW on the subject, just suggestions.


At most you'd create an Ice Assassin of an Outsider with 20 HD that looks like Bane for example.

Wouldn't it also have their class levels? Regardless if it copies them at all it copies all of them, including Divine Rank.


The second loop that I don't agree with is making something a proxy, therefore losing your Divine Rank 1, then getting your Ice Assassin to make you a Proxy AGAIN to get that Divine Rank 1 again AND be able to recall your original DR from your own proxy. That's not RAW legal. You'd be a DR0 Proxy already and you won't be eligible for Proxification again. You can either recall your original Divine Rank back or stay as a DR0 Quasy Deity.

This is more solid, and may or may not be true (I'll leave that to those more experienced than I).


The third illogical assumption is that Divine Rank 21 and upward equals an Overdeity. In the Overdeity block we see that they are DR 21+ Gods and are to Gods as Gods are to mortals. But just because every Overdeity has DR21+ does not mean that every Deity that gets 21+ Divine Ranks is automatically an Overdeity!

Actually, DR 21+ does make you an Overdeity, as surely as DR 16-20 makes you a Greater Deity or DR 1 makes you a demigod. Sorry, but this one is directly countered in RAW. Still, 1 and a variable out of four isn't bad, particularly when arguing against Pun-Pun. The simplest thing is simply not having Sarrukhs, though, as it always has been. No Sarrukh = no Pun-Pun.


Thoughts?

Above. TL;DR: Some good points, some less so. Some of these are the best arguments I've seen against Pun-Pun being RAW, though it doesn't stop the NI stats and any-ability-ever, published or not, problems though. Pun-Pun can still gain Divine Ranks or anything else they want, they just may not have published precedent.

@Hyfigh (spelling may be wrong, but I blame you for having such an odd username): I'm fairly sure a creature, in D&D, is anything with a Cha score and a Wis score (and you have to have both or neither, one but not the other is definitely not possible). IIRC, but I'm sure that's true.

[Hyfigh]

Skills and abilities are defined though, and divine rank is arguably neither.

And "the rules don't say I can't" is fairly invalid by RAW. This doesn't stop becoming a diety by itself, but it does stop that particular abuse.

I don't think the overdiety thing matters. It's a definition of overdieties. Likewise, followers are not required for DR. Even if they were, pun-pun could arrange followers.

True, but since you're duplicating a diety, it should get the DR. The SRD says this about DR:


Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.

If it's an exact copy of the diety, I would argue it has to have the DR.

As far as the "rules don't say I can't" deal - this was the reason I had offered an alternative. I concur that it's not really a good RAW interpretation.

@ ScionoftheVoid: I have an odd user name? Speak for yourself... :smalltongue: I did a quick search on the SRD and found no solid definition of a creature.

[Khatoblepas]

The second loop that I don't agree with is making something a proxy, therefore losing your Divine Rank 1, then getting your Ice Assassin to make you a Proxy AGAIN to get that Divine Rank 1 again AND be able to recall your original DR from your own proxy. That's not RAW legal. You'd be a DR0 Proxy already and you won't be eligible for Proxification again. You can either recall your original Divine Rank back or stay as a DR0 Quasi Deity.

What makes him uneligible for being a proxy more than once? Are there any rules that you cannot become a proxy more than once, even if you give away your divine rank? As soon as you give away that divine rank, you can become a proxy again. Have 21 squirrels to squirrel away those ranks while you become a proxy of many, many Ice Assassins (which you can create as a free action), then ascend with your DR0 squirrels to the stars beyond. If you can't become a proxy of a particular god twice, make another one. You're Pun-Pun. If you can't take back the divine ranks, craft an ability that lets you steal them from squirrels with a touch as a free action. You're Pun Pun.

I likewise don't see the point in trying to disprove Pun-Pun. If any loopholes exist, they would have been found already.

Face it: God exists, and he is a kobold (http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7044/theoneandthepun.png).

[AstralFire]

Why do people persist in trying to 'prove' that Pun-Pun doesn't work? It's not supposed to work, but it can, and anyone actually using it should get a DMG upside the head. That's the point of TO, of which Pun-Pun is the very pinnacle, crafted and perfected by some very smart people with way too much time on their hands.

I've been wondering this myself a lot lately with regards to a lot of the TO. It's there to be a cute "it's fun and I used my brains on this!"

[Gamer Girl]

Who or what is a Pun Pun?

[Flickerdart]

Who or what is a Pun Pun?
A character that uses the poorly-written Manipulate Form ability of a sarrukh from Serpent Kingdoms to grant himself very high stats, every ability in the game and overdeity powers. At level 1.

[AstralFire]

A character that uses the poorly-written Manipulate Form ability of a sarrukh from Serpent Kingdoms to grant himself very high stats, every ability in the game and overdeity powers. At level 1.

Side note: The level 5 version is my favorite. Pazuzu feels like cheating even by TO standards since it's not really using a mechanic to get started.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with the level 5 version is that the Omniscificer attains unlimited power an entire level earlier, though.

[true_shinken]

Who or what is a Pun Pun?

This is Pun Pun. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)

[HunterOfJello]

Who or what is a Pun Pun?

Some people spend their time trying to make the most powerful d&d characters possibile, while still following the rules. Most of these attempts are called Theoretical Optimization and aren't intended to actually be used in games. Through competition and the sharing of ideas, the most powerful character was eventually developed.

Pun-Pun is final word on theoretical optimization. He is the pinnacle of all possible power. He is a player character that is more powerful than all of the Deities put together. All beings cower in fear of the unstoppable kobold whose wrath can only be halted by the Almighty DM.

[Susano-wo]

Why do people persist in trying to 'prove' that Pun-Pun doesn't work? It's not supposed to work, but it can, and anyone actually using it should get a DMG upside the head. That's the point of TO, of which Pun-Pun is the very pinnacle, crafted and perfected by some very smart people with way too much time on their hands.


That someone is wrong on the internet, effectively. Not much more to it than that.:smallbiggrin:

[PirateMonk]

What makes him uneligible for being a proxy more than once? Are there any rules that you cannot become a proxy more than once, even if you give away your divine rank? As soon as you give away that divine rank, you can become a proxy again. Have 21 squirrels to squirrel away those ranks while you become a proxy of many, many Ice Assassins (which you can create as a free action), then ascend with your DR0 squirrels to the stars beyond. If you can't become a proxy of a particular god twice, make another one. You're Pun-Pun. If you can't take back the divine ranks, craft an ability that lets you steal them from squirrels with a touch as a free action. You're Pun Pun.

The SRD section on proxies:


A divine proxy speaks and acts on behalf of the divine being. When the demand for a deity’s presence is too high, the deity may use proxies.

Proxies are divine minions invested with a small portion of the deity’s power. A deity may invest 1 rank of its power (reducing its divine rank accordingly) in a single servant for as long as the deity chooses. The minion must be physically present for the deity to perform the investiture. While so invested, the proxy gains any salient divine abilities held by the patron deity as well as the powers and abilities of a rank 1 demigod. Without the requisite ability scores or divine ranks, the proxy may not be able to use all those powers and abilities. A deity may have more than one proxy, but it must lose 1 divine rank for each proxy it invests. A deity can retrieve a single divine rank as a standard action, and doing so does not require the physical presence of the proxy.

So, you can become a proxy multiple times even without giving away your divine rank, it just won't do you any good, because each time only makes you an effective DR 1 demigod again. By recalling his divine rank from the squirrels, Pun Pun is either creating a new divine rank which he previously had in effect but not in name, or he is becoming a DR 1 proxy multiple times. Both seem like perfectly valid interpretations.

[NEO|Phyte]

I did a quick search on the SRD and found no solid definition of a creature.

Closest thing to a solid definition of "creature" to be found is the fact that every creature has a wisdom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#wisdomWis) and charisma score (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha), and that things without said scores are objects, not creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities).

[Myth]

Deities and Demigods, page 25, also online in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks):


Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasideities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1–5: These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits, such as hearing a grasshopper from a mile away.

A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio. For example, a demigod of thieves might be able to change a stolen item so that it is no longer recognizable.

Rank 6–10: Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can, such as sensing certain phenomena from ten miles away. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11–15: These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16–20: Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.


I think it is pretty clear how many worshipers one must have at each Divine Rank. This is especially true if the Deities in the setting are dependent on having worshipers. Like say, the Forgotten Realms.

Pun-Pun works only in Toril - Serpend Kingdoms ensures that. Don't argue about Homebrew as it requries a DM to create it, and we are talking RAW. And by RAW Pun-Pun works only in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

In the Forgotten Realms, lord AO is the Overdeity. He goes to great lengths to maintain the equilibrium between Gods and their Portfolios. By virtue of the lore in this setting Pun-Pun can't ascend without AO allowing him.

He also can't gain divine ranks, because it is known that AO made the Deities dependent on their worshipers to gain divine rank. Forgotten and no longer worshiped Deities disappear off of Toril.

On why Ice Assassin fails:


THE DIVINE GLOSSARY
The following terms are used frequently in Deities and Demigods.

Deity: A god. Deities have from 0 to 20 divine ranks.

Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. Mortals include humanoids, outsiders, and the other creatures in the Monster Manual.

So this states, RAW, that creature =/= god. So no Deity is actually a viable target for Ice Assassin.

[true_shinken]

He also can't gain divine ranks, because it is known that AO made the Deities dependent on their worshipers to gain divine rank. Forgotten and no longer worshiped Deities disappear off of Toril.

Your realms-fu is lacking. Myrkul, Bhaal and Bane are all examples of deities who 'lost all worshippers' but kept on existing in some way or another.

[Tael]

Deity: A god. Deities have from 0 to 20 divine ranks.

Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. Mortals include humanoids, outsiders, and the other creatures in the Monster Manual.

This does not mean that dieties are not creatures. In fact, the "creature with no divine ranks" line actually implies that there are creatures with divine ranks.

Also, couldn't one make an Ice Assassin of an Overdiety?

[Flickerdart]

On why Ice Assassin fails:
So this states, RAW, that creature =/= god. So no Deity is actually a viable target for Ice Assassin.
That...doesn't actually prove anything. Just because mortals are creatures doesn't mean that gods are not.

[Hyfigh]

Do divine ranks dictate followers, or followers dictate divine rank? That certainly isn't specified and is surely countered by them saying "they may have this many followers"... It's countered a second time: as Tael said, some gods are still in existance, specifically without followers.

I can even take that a step further by stopping this portion of the argument here. Through Manipulate form and boosting his charisma score to outrageous heights, then obtaining the Leadership feat.

Likewise, the definition you provide of god vs. mortals doesn't scream to me that a god isn't a creature. Couldn't that definition just as easily have stated "Deity: A creature with 0 to 20 divine ranks"? It would still apply because, again, creature isn't clearly defined.

Again, without specifically defining a creature first, you can't say something is not a creature. The closest I have seen to the definition of creatures comes from NEO|Phyte. In those cases, they are quite clearly considered creatures.

Arguments on something that aren't clearly defined simply won't work for the purpose Pun-Pun serves: TO.

Edit: to make the followers easier to obtain.

[Myth]

OK I take it back, while trying to clarify the situation for dead deities in the Realms, explained in Faiths and Pantheons, i stumbled across this RAW stupidity:


Most deities are creatures of the outsider type (usually with 20 outsider Hit Dice)

However this does not change anything since in the FR deities need worshipers. Here:


... Because they lose strength if their worship dwindles away and is forgotten... So yes divine rank is directly related to the number of followers one has. Yes I know some deities stayed dormant and waited for their resurrection (explained on page 6 in F&P) and even weirder stuff can happen, like Lathander suddenly letting everyone else know he is the ancient Netherese sun God Amaunator.

The fact remains that no worshipers = no relevant power to be had.

Now it's very late here but I'm sure I can dig up more stuff from Lost Empires of Faerun as far as this issue is concerned.

Also no one has answered how Pun-Pun will actually get Ao's permission to gain Divine Ranks and obtain a portfolio which is currently in use.

[true_shinken]

The fact remains that no worshipers = no relevant power to be had.

Incorrect. You know who in FR has no worshippers whatsover?
Ao. The overdeity.

[Flickerdart]

It just says "they will lose strength". That has absolutely no bearing on divine rank. None. None at all.

[Quietus]

Interesting. From this :



...The ice assassin possesses all of the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original...

Specifically, it defines three things Ice Assassins gain.

1) Skills. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm)

2) Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theAbilities)

3) Memories (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm)

Does it list anything else? Because it seems to me, if that's ALL an Ice Assassin gets, then there's no Divine Rank to be stolen, and thus, can't give it to Pun-Pun.

[tcrudisi]

So yes divine rank is directly related to the number of followers one has.

The fact remains that no worshipers = no relevant power to be had.

Also no one has answered how Pun-Pun will actually get Ao's permission to gain Divine Ranks and obtain a portfolio which is currently in use.

Fine, let's make that assumption. I recently saw a build posted (within the last week) where someone had a wizard make a lot of sentient creations to worship him. If a wizard can do it, Pun-Pun can give himself that ability and do it himself, and better. He can create a separate plane of existence and fill it up with an infinite number of followers, all of whom worship him.

Second, where does it say that he needs Ao's permission? You posted:

In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

Are we sure that Ao's system is one of them? This implies that it would inform you if it was.

[HunterOfJello]

Creature has a specific definition on page 306 of the Player's Handbook. A creature is an, "active being" that is not an object. Therefore, gods are creatures.

The term 'creature' is used throughout the books as the most general term for beings. If a spell like Charm Monster applies to "one creature" then it can be applied to any being that isn't an object (assuming they are "active" per the PHB).

~

I sincerely hope that this doesn't turn into a discussion about nonliving beings that exist in a state that could be considered 'inactive'. Lazy undead shouldn't be able to resist spells because they were left to guard a door in a crypt and haven't moved in over 100 years.

[Quietus]

Are we sure that Ao's system is one of them? This implies that it would inform you if it was.

Ao's system couldn't be pantheistic, due to the confirmed existence of dozens of gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

So essentially, that statement is like saying "In a system where Gods don't really exist, you need a God's permission..."

[Dante & Vergil]

I can't remember what book I read it in, it might have been in Deities and Demigods but probably another book, but I remember reading something that Gods are immune to mortal magic, spells of level 1-9. I wish I remembered which book it was from, if from one at all, so this adds nothing unless there is someone else with knowledge of this rule.

[Tael]

Interesting. From this :



Specifically, it defines three things Ice Assassins gain.

1) Skills. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm)

2) Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#theAbilities)

3) Memories (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm)

Does it list anything else? Because it seems to me, if that's ALL an Ice Assassin gets, then there's no Divine Rank to be stolen, and thus, can't give it to Pun-Pun.

No, those are in addition to it being a "perfect duplicate". "An improved version of Simulacrum". It gets to keep it's skills memories and abilities, unlike a normal simulacrum. And if you really want to get into semantics about what it can and can not do, I deposit that "Abilities" means that the Ice Assassin can do anything the original could do.

[Elfstone]

Maybe Epic level handbook? Because only Epic magic has a chance of effecting a god. (As far as I remember)

[tcrudisi]

I can't remember what book I read it in, it might have been in Deities and Demigods but probably another book, but I remember reading something that Gods are immune to mortal magic, spells of level 1-9. I wish I remembered which book it was from, if from one at all, so this adds nothing unless there is someone else with knowledge of this rule.

Pun-Pun doesn't do normal magic if I remember correctly. :P

[Myth]

Fine, let's make that assumption. I recently saw a build posted (within the last week) where someone had a wizard make a lot of sentient creations to worship him. If a wizard can do it, Pun-Pun can give himself that ability and do it himself, and better. He can create a separate plane of existence and fill it up with an infinite number of followers, all of whom worship him.

Second, where does it say that he needs Ao's permission? You posted:


Are we sure that Ao's system is one of them? This implies that it would inform you if it was

Doesn't matter. He will still be subject to Ao's approval as he will be within the Toril cosmology.


Deities are not immortal, and may have died or been reborn. Others have merely been forgotten, left to slumber on other planes. (this gives a description on what happens if a deity has been forgotten. There are actual examples in Lost Empires of Faerun)



All deities in Toril are subject to Ao the Overgod. Ao has almost no direct interaction with Toril and would largely be forgotten if not for his role in the Time of Troubles. Already, cults founded in Ao's name only a decade ago die out and Aos name disappears from written records, suggesting that the Overgod has no wish to be known by the mortals of Toril. Ao cares not what the deities do, as long as they uphold their individual portfolios. Of course, this stricture ensures endless conflict between the followers of deities with opposing portfolios. The Overgod also ensures that, with the exception of demigods, no two deities of teh same pantheon can truly claim the same portfolio. Finally, only Ao can recognize the ascension of a mortal to divine status or permit a deity worshiped on other worlds to be worshiped in Toril.

So there is your proof guys. Ao has the saying on what Punners can and can't do. He tries to steal Divine Rank? He answers to Ao. He tries to gain one million fake worshipers and ascends? He answers to Ao. BEFORE he ascends to be precise. His arbitrarily high stats can't save him pre-Divine ascension. Pun-Pun doesn't work.

I can dig around LOEOF to see what happens to deities who have been forgotten or are no longer worshiped but this is moot now that i've given you RAW evidence that Pun-Pun is Ao's... ummm... wench?

[JaronK]

Ice Assassin of Ao? Or should Pun Pun just Manipulate Forum himself to gain Ao's ability to pick who becomes god?

JaronK

[true_shinken]

I can dig around LOEOF to see what happens to deities who have been forgotten or are no longer worshiped but this is moot now that i've given you RAW evidence that Pun-Pun is Ao's... ummm... wench?
That's no 'proof'. It just means there is a character who could stop PunPun. And Ao does not do that kind of stuff.
Just check how many gods ascended through illegal means in Forgotten Realms. Cyric ascending through the killing of other gods, Bane ressurrecting, even Midnight becoming Mystra. Ao? He didn't care. The one time he acted was the Time of Troubles. Ao wouldn't give a crap about a kobold becoming a deity.
Also, just so you know: before the Time of Troubles, Ao was just a reference to the DM. Meaning you're basically saying 'PunPun does not work because you can houserule otherwise'. :smallamused:

[tcrudisi]

Also, afaik, nothing stops Pun-Pun from ascending in Forgotten Realms. Yes, the monster he needs is from another plane, but what does that matter? He simply planeshifts or creates an ability called "I move to Forgotten Realms" and does it there. Or Eberron. Or Pun-Punville. Then he ascends, gets NI divine ranks, and slaps around Ao for thinking that he could stop Pun-Pun.


Ice Assassin of Ao? Or should Pun Pun just Manipulate Forum himself to gain Ao's ability to pick who becomes god?

This too, unfortunately. Or, he gives himself an ability that forces all the gods to give him their divine ranks. Really, anything Pun-Pun can imagine, he can do.

[true_shinken]

Also, afaik, nothing stops Pun-Pun from ascending in Forgotten Realms. Yes, the monster he needs is from another plane, but what does that matter? He simply planeshifts or creates an ability called "I move to Forgotten Realms" and does it there. Or Eberron. Or Pun-Punville. Then he ascends, gets NI divine ranks, and slaps around Ao for thinking that he could stop Pun-Pun.

You don't get it. He needs the sarrukh to get manipulate form.
Without the sarrukh (so, outside of FR) PunPun is impossible

[tcrudisi]

You don't get it. He needs the sarrukh to get manipulate form.
Without the sarrukh (so, outside of FR) PunPun is impossible

And? So he starts in FR (is that where Ao is? I'm horrible on my theology within D&D) and then planeshifts to a realm where he can ascend. That's what I was trying to say.

[Sir Swindle89]

It does specify Torill so ya, he's going to go to his own Demi-plane any way so Ao's approval wouldn't be necessary there.

and is abilities capitalized in the Ice Assassin description? Because if it's not any definition you throw out there from the SRD doesn't really matter.

[Myth]

That's no 'proof'. It just means there is a character who could stop PunPun. And Ao does not do that kind of stuff.
Just check how many gods ascended through illegal means in Forgotten Realms. Cyric ascending through the killing of other gods, Bane ressurrecting, even Midnight becoming Mystra. Ao? He didn't care. The one time he acted was the Time of Troubles. Ao wouldn't give a crap about a kobold becoming a deity.
Also, just so you know: before the Time of Troubles, Ao was just a reference to the DM. Meaning you're basically saying 'PunPun does not work because you can houserule otherwise'. :smallamused:
You need to read up on your realmslore. He does care - he resurrected Kelemvor, and he let Cyric gain power because someone had to take Bane's portfolios. Ao is an actual presence in the realms and i have given you proof from a book saying that any ascensions go trough him. There are no vacant portfolios for Pun-Pun to legitimately claim and therefore create a need for yet another deity. Everything else is you ignoring the text I quoted and saying LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!


And? So he starts in FR (is that where Ao is? I'm horrible on my theology within D&D) and then planeshifts to a realm where he can ascend. That's what I was trying to say. You need to understand the way D&D cosmology works. Toril and all it's dimensions (which you can plane shift to) are under Ao's rule. To leave Ao's rule you have to leave the setting, the only RAW way to do it is via Speljammer ship. And somehow I don't think Pun-Pun can use one. And that trip trough wildspace is even worse. And where will he go? Eberron? Ravenloft? Lol he'll get creamed. So far I don't think Pun-Pun can create his own damn setting.



Ice Assassin of Ao? Or should Pun Pun just Manipulate Forum himself to gain Ao's ability to pick who becomes god?

JaronK

If he can do that why does the concept use Ice Asassin at all? Why do we assume Pun-Pun can even do anything, the first guy who ever got access to Ice Assassin would have done it already.

[tcrudisi]

It does specify Torill so ya, he's going to go to his own Demi-plane any way so Ao's approval wouldn't be necessary there.

and is abilities capitalized in the Ice Assassin description? Because if it's not any definition you throw out there from the SRD doesn't really matter.

(Disclaimer: I've really not looked at Pun-Pun since about 3 months after 4e came out. I didn't want to completely leave 3.5, so I joined a new game with people I had never played with before. One of the guys was creating the level 12 (13? 14? I don't remember) version of Pun-Pun. Seriously. Well, once I realized what was going on, I left. ... My point is that I haven't looked at Pun-Pun's build in at least a couple of years.)

Is the Ice Assassin even necessary? At the point that it is, Pun-Pun has already achieved NI in all stats and given himself every ability that he wants. What stops him from giving himself the ability of Ice Assassin except with whatever improvements are necessary? I know Pun-Pun can create abilities out of thin-air with Manipulate Form, so I don't see why a single spell is of any consequence. He can use Manipulate Form to give himself an ability which gives him Divine Ranks. If I remember correctly (and I'm probably not, as I said above), they just used Ice Assassin to make it more "official" or something, but it really wasn't necessary to achieve divine ranks.

/edit to add this in:


If he can do that why does the concept use Ice Asassin at all? Why do we assume Pun-Pun can even do anything, the first guy who ever got access to Ice Assassin would have done it already.

I don't think he really needs to use Ice Assassin. Pun-Pun can give himself any ability he wants. Yeah, it's silly, but he could create, "I can teleport any creature/object/god/whatever to any D&D setting I desire." Sure, the first guy who used Ice Assassin got NI Divine Ranks, but he's still not very well off compared to Pun-Pun who will have NI everything, including divine ranks.

/edit 2 - Basically, it's not Ice Assassin which gives him all those powers. It's Manipulate Form. Once he gets that, there's nothing that can stop him. Not even an overdeity.

[Tael]

Indeed, why can't Pun-Pun just Ice Assassin Ao, or give himself Ao's Abilities?

This entire thing has always been contingent on the gods not seeing the future and killing pun-pun in the first place. You could say that Ao just auto-counterspells the Ice Assassin, but you could say that with the original pun-pun trick too.

[Myth]

It does specify Torill so ya, he's going to go to his own Demi-plane any way so Ao's approval wouldn't be necessary there.

and is abilities capitalized in the Ice Assassin description? Because if it's not any definition you throw out there from the SRD doesn't really matter.

It doesn't matter which plane you are on it's still in the Forgotten Realms setting, so it's the same crystal sphere! :smallmad:

Aye there is the Portfolio Sense argument that no one has been able to dispute - Greater Deities will know several months in advance as soon as Punners touches the edges of their portfolios.

Also, the stupid proxy trick brings up another question:


For the deity’s purposes, a proxy is the deity. An insult to a proxy is an insult to the patron deity. Likewise, an attack on a proxy is an attack on the patron deity. Deities expect their proxies to be treated with the same awe, respect, and reverence as the deities themselves.

So let's say that Punners decides to create an Ice Asassin of a Greater Deity, he chooses Zeus for example. What happens then? Well he becomes a Proxy of Zeus. But is he a proxy of the Ice Assasin or the real one, or both? A proxy is the deity, so they meld. If the Ice Asassin is separate from the real Zeus, then Punners is, for the Ice Asassin's purpouses, an Ice Asassin. Thus the minute Pun-Pun becomes a proxy for Zeus Asassin, he becomes obsessed with slaying Zeus. And that will not end well.

[Lhurgyof]

Incorrect. You know who in FR has no worshippers whatsover?
Ao. The overdeity.

I'd assume since Overdeities are gods of gods, that the gods are the ones who worship him.

[Myth]

No he is to gods as gods are to mortals, but that's in terms of power and position. He does not require worship.

Also creating an Ice Assassin of Ao will actually be considered an attempt of ascension or otherwise tampering with the divine equilibrium, so it will be subject to his approval strictly by the RAW from Faiths&Pantheons. So there.

[tcrudisi]

Also creating an Ice Assassin of Ao will actually be considered an attempt of ascension or otherwise tampering with the divine equilibrium, so it will be subject to his approval strictly by the RAW from Faiths&Pantheons. So there.

That still doesn't say how Ao trumps Pun-Pun going to another realm or simply creating an ability called "Ao is my slave. Anything I desire is now his desire and he will do anything within his power to give it to me."

[Myth]

If he can create this ability why does every Pun-Pun writeup use the Ice Asassin cheese to gain divine rank? Also there are rules for going from one crystal sphere to another it's not as simple as you put it.

[pingcode20]

Pun-pun uses the Ice assassin cheese as an exercise in 'playing fair' with the Sarrukh ability, to the extent it can be considered playing fair. So while the ability is badly worded enough to allow the arch-kobold to make up any ability, as an exercise in pushing the envelope further, Theoretical Optimisers limit themselves to existing abilities.

Like the rest of Theoretical Optimisation, it's a game. A mental puzzle to be solved. A challenge to see who can acquire everything without resorting to trivial solutions like making up 'I win' abilities.

[Myth]

It could be argued that Manipulate Form does not allow one to make up new things on the fly. It sates it can grant an (Ex), (Su) or (SLA) ability. Not a "new" or "any kind of". I read it as "any published, relevant to the setting".

You could argue that it doesn't say you CAN'T make up new abilites. But that is a poor argument. If manipulate form could indeed create any ability, Sarrukhs wouldn't be extinct, they would all be Overdeities.

And no one has realistically answered why the Gods won't know this is coming via Portfolio Sense and turn Pun-Pun in to so much Kobold goo right as he even thinks about doing the ritual.

[tcrudisi]

It could be argued that Manipulate Form does not allow one to make up new things on the fly. It sates it can grant an (Ex), (Su) or (SLA) ability. Not a "new" or "any kind of". I read it as "any published, relevant to the setting".

You could argue that it doesn't say you CAN'T make up new abilites. But that is a poor argument. If manipulate form could indeed create any ability, Sarrukhs wouldn't be extinct, they would all be Overdeities.

And no one has realistically answered why the Gods won't know this is coming via Portfolio Sense and turn Pun-Pun in to so much Kobold goo right as he even thinks about doing the ritual.

You read it as "any published, relevant to the setting", but it doesn't say that. It never puts that limitation on it.

Really, Sarrukhs should be basically gods anyway. Even without divine ranks, Pun-Pun still achieves NI every stat and (even with your interpretation) every ability, which includes epic spellcasting and immunity to everything. So why aren't they CR infinte? They would be if they (ab)used their own power.

As for Portfolio Sense, why bother? Let's say the gods can see as far into the future as 10 years. Pun-Pun achieves infinite stats (including Int and Wis) and realizes this with an easily made religion check. Now he waits 15 years before starting the Ice Assassin trick. By this time, the gods know what he is going to do, but they can't stop him. He has every ability ever published and infinite stats.

Alternatively, is it not possible to pick a portfolio which has not been chosen? Or enter into an arrangement with a weak god to make them the second most powerful deity... ever. It's not like he can't use his infinite Cha to convince a god to help him (not that he needs it).

[Tael]

And no one has realistically answered why the Gods won't know this is coming via Portfolio Sense and turn Pun-Pun in to so much Kobold goo right as he even thinks about doing the ritual.

As I said, that was always the flaw with Pun-Pun. The guys who originally created to even said so himself. However, the gods have no real reason to stop Pun-Pun from ascending, apart from just not liking change. I mean, ascension happens all the time in some settings.

[boj0]

It could be argued that Manipulate Form does not allow one to make up new things on the fly. It sates it can grant an (Ex), (Su) or (SLA) ability. Not a "new" or "any kind of". I read it as "any published, relevant to the setting".

Pun-Pun uses Epic spells to make things up on the fly.


You could argue that it doesn't say you CAN'T make up new abilites. But that is a poor argument. If manipulate form could indeed create any ability, Sarrukhs wouldn't be extinct, they would all be Overdeities.

This is what makes it Theoretical Optimization, nobody does it because it breaks the game.


And no one has realistically answered why the Gods won't know this is coming via Portfolio Sense and turn Pun-Pun in to so much Kobold goo right as he even thinks about doing the ritual.

They probably would know, Kahn the Destroyer kind of tip-toed around this when Pun-Pun first came about; but effectively this would never come up as a Diety's response would be an arbitration by the DM, not a RAW mechanic (If the DM says "Ao thinks this is awesome!" well then it happens; if not...well it was theoretical to begin with.)

EDIT: swordsage'd

[Foryn Gilnith]

Enough of the arguments in this thread have a degree of legitimacy that I'm personally going to back Omniscificer as most reliable very-powerful fellow.

[Flickerdart]

If we allow that Ao's permission must be given, and assume that this cannot be circumvented...we know that Ao doesn't care who has a portfolio as long as someone does (see Cyric). So all our kobold has to do is indiscriminately murder a few gods and free up their portfolios, then take them. And then murder the rest of the gods, for fun.

[boj0]

Also, using a ridiculously high Bluff/Diplomacy check, Pun-Pun will just convince Ao to let him become a god.
Or even a ridiculously high Intimidate check :smallcool:

[Foryn Gilnith]

Also, using a ridiculously high Bluff/Diplomacy check, Pun-Pun will just convince Ao to let him become a god.

Why would Ao allow himself to come within telepathy range of Pun-Pun? That's just asking for trouble.

[Tael]

Enough of the arguments in this thread have a degree of legitimacy that I'm personally going to back Omniscificer as most reliable very-powerful fellow.

The only thing on debate is Pun-Pun's deityness, he still has every ability and NI stats.

[Myth]

If we allow that Ao's permission must be given, and assume that this cannot be circumvented...we know that Ao doesn't care who has a portfolio as long as someone does (see Cyric). So all our kobold has to do is indiscriminately murder a few gods and free up their portfolios, then take them. And then murder the rest of the gods, for fun.

Uh uh, yes, but that happened during the Time of Troubles when Ao was punishing the Gods. Assuming he really does not care so long as the Portfolio is taken care of, you still have to actually kill the Gods.

And don't give me that Epic Spellcasting crap guys, if we assume anyone who could, would abuse Epic Spells, then the current Greater Deities can do it most efficently because out of the millions of followers they have (see the information in my previous post on the actual numbers) they have tens of thousands of spellcasters each easily. If they sacrifice slots, Epic Magic in the hands of Deities is just ridiculous. Now also consider Mystra, who knows higher than 9th level spells and can enable or disable them at will...

The first deity Pun-Pun encounters, who has Supreme Initative and Salient Death means game over.


Also, using a ridiculously high Bluff/Diplomacy check, Pun-Pun will just convince Ao to let him become a god.
Or even a ridiculously high Intimidate check :smallcool:

:smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

Uh uh, yes, but that happened during the Time of Troubles when Ao was punishing the Gods. Assuming he really does not care so long as the Portfolio is taken care of, you still have to actually kill the Gods.

And don't give me that Epic Spellcasting crap guys, if we assume anyone who could, would abuse Epic Spells, then the current Greater Deities can do it most efficently because out of the millions of followers they have (see the information in my previous post on the actual numbers) they have tens of thousands of spellcasters each easily. If they sacrifice slots, Epic Magic in the hands of Deities is just ridiculous. Now also consider Mystra, who knows higher than 9th level spells and can enable or disable them at will...

The first deity Pun-Pun encounters, who has Supreme Initative and Salient Death means game over.



:smallconfused:
Have you ever seen the deity stat blocks? Many of them aren't spellcasters. All of them are ridiculously underpowered, so far that a 20th level wizard can take them, never mind Pun-Pun who can render himself immune to magic should he so desire.

[boj0]

Uh uh, yes, but that happened during the Time of Troubles when Ao was punishing the Gods. Assuming he really does not care so long as the Portfolio is taken care of, you still have to actually kill the Gods.

And don't give me that Epic Spellcasting crap guys, if we assume anyone who could, would abuse Epic Spells, then the current Greater Deities can do it most efficently because out of the millions of followers they have (see the information in my previous post on the actual numbers) they have tens of thousands of spellcasters each easily. If they sacrifice slots, Epic Magic in the hands of Deities is just ridiculous. Now also consider Mystra, who knows higher than 9th level spells and can enable or disable them at will...

The first deity Pun-Pun encounters, who has Supreme Initative and Salient Death means game over.



:smallconfused:

Okay, I see the problem; you're confusing lore with mechanics.
RAW is the rules, no more, no less; there is no mechanical rule that states "Ao will not make you a diety unless you can quote word for word this book which made that same exception". The DM saying "No" to Ice Assassin or Epic Spells (which Pun can get NI followers just as easily as gods to make work) is fiat, plain and simple.
No, it doesn't make sense that any of this stuff is possible, but D&D has a strict "Crazy = Possible and/or Awesome" policy.

EDIT: you also seem to be confused about Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate; Pun-Pun has NI Charisma, which means he has +(NI-10)/2 to those skills; for simplicity's sake, I'll say NI currently equals 10^100^100. With 1d20+([{10^100^100}10]/2) you easily pass the DC of 50 to make someone a fanatical follower. Pun-Pun makes Ao a willing slave, orders him to allow ascension.
"We now return to your scheduled Punnyverse!"

[Myth]

Have you ever seen the deity stat blocks? Many of them aren't spellcasters. All of them are ridiculously underpowered, so far that a 20th level wizard can take them, never mind Pun-Pun who can render himself immune to magic should he so desire.

Yes i have read them. Have you read the descriptions of the SDAs? Alter Reality means you can cast any spell in the game and make the effect permanent. They don't need spellcaster levels because of that.

Supreme Initiative means the Deity always goes first. Salient Death or Mass Life and Death mans Pun-Pun dies, no save. What now?


Okay, I see the problem; you're confusing lore with mechanics.
RAW is the rules, no more, no less; there is no mechanical rule that states "Ao will not make you a diety unless you can quote word for word this book which made that same exception". The DM saying "No" to Ice Assassin or Epic Spells (which Pun can get NI followers just as easily as gods to make work) is fiat, plain and simple.
No, it doesn't make sense that any of this stuff is possible, but D&D has a strict "Crazy = Possible and/or Awesome" policy.

What mechanical statistic or table do you need to accept the rule "Want Godhood? Ask Ao!" Ao is a DM independent mechanism that ensue that no two deities may share the same portfolio and no one can ascend without approval. The DM is the one who approves or disapproves, but in a game without a DM unless you can present a valid point on why a Kobold suddenly wants to ascend using shenanigans the default answer will be No. It's in the books, and I'ts a rule for an FR characters. Lore can be considered fluff - for example, the history of the Dalelands. This is a rule because everyone has to follow it (everyone is subject to Ao's will).

[Flickerdart]

Yes i have read them. Have you read the descriptions of the SDAs? Alter Reality means you can cast any spell in the game and make the effect permanent. They don't need spellcaster levels because of that.

Supreme Initiative means the Deity always goes first. Salient Death or Mass Life and Death mans Pun-Pun dies, no save. What now?
Not everyone has Alter Reality or the Death abilities (which are [Death] and trivial to be immune to). Superior initiative doesn't matter if the deity can't hurt Pun-Pun.

[boj0]

Yes i have read them. Have you read the descriptions of the SDAs? Alter Reality means you can cast any spell in the game and make the effect permanent. They don't need spellcaster levels because of that.

Supreme Initiative means the Deity always goes first. Salient Death or Mass Life and Death mans Pun-Pun dies, no save. What now?

Bane used Mass Death!
It doesn't affect enemy Pun-Pun...
Enemy Pun-Pun used Epic Spell!
*Creates object capable of slaying Bane*
Bane used Full Attack!
Bane's attack missed!
Enemy Pun-Pun used Power Attack!
It's super effective!
Critical Hit!
Bane fainted!



What mechanical statistic or table do you need to accept the rule "Want Godhood? Ask Ao!" Ao is a DM independent mechanism that ensue that no two deities may share the same portfolio and no one can ascend without approval. The DM is the one who approves or disapproves, but in a game without a DM unless you can present a valid point on why a Kobold suddenly wants to ascend using shenanigans the default answer will be No. It's in the books, and I'ts a rule for an FR characters. Lore can be considered fluff - for example, the history of the Dalelands. This is a rule because everyone has to follow it (everyone is subject to Ao's will).

I need a table because otherwise it is an arbitration and thus not applicable to THEORETICAL OPTIMIZATION, Pun-Pun exists assuming he doesn't run into any mechanical reasons that stop him. The DM saying, "Ao isn't cool with this, stop." is not a mechanical reason, its fiat. Sans fiat, Pun-Pun works.
Stop mentioning fluff, at all, no, not even then. It has absolutely no bearing on Pun-Pun as a legal build.

[Myth]

Bane used Mass Death!
It doesn't affect enemy Pun-Pun...
Enemy Pun-Pun used Epic Spell!
*Creates object capable of slaying Bane*
Bane used Full Attack!
Bane's attack missed!
Enemy Pun-Pun used Power Attack!
It's super effective!
Critical Hit!
Bane fainted!

You are trying to be cute? First of all, don't bring up Epic casting, if you want to bring this up Bane has had a much greater resource in both time and followers to create whatever Epic spell he wanted.

Second of all, Pun-Pun can't become immune to Salient Death.

Same goes for Flickerdart. Immunity do [Death] effects will not stop SL&D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath)!

You want RAW? Here is raw: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life.

What is a mortal? A creature without Divine Ranks.

SDA's are not subject to Anti-Magic, SR or anything else. In SL&D you have :This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield.

So no way for Pun-Pun to become immune sans Divine Ranks. Get it?

If this is about full attacks (which it isn't) Bane will always roll natural 20s and thus will hit a creature with NI AC.

[tcrudisi]

Second of all, Pun-Pun can't become immune to Salient Death.

Actually, Pun-Pun is immune. Salient Death allows for Spell Resistance, of which Pun-Pun's is NI.

Per the link you gave:

If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw.
(Then we go look at Destruction)
Spell Resistance: Yes

[grimbold]

the simple answer is
if you question punpun then he will SMITE YOU

[boj0]

Trying? lol I don't need to try /arrogance
Okay I may have come across as a jerk, and I apologize :smallredface:
The thing is, Punny has the ability to get the epic spells (and the ability to become immune to any kind of Death) regardless of how you feel about them; and using those epic spells and other shenanigans, he can get FAR more resources than even the gods can muster. I understand your statements and concerns, "He can't do this because of Ao" or any other reason.
And you know what? I totally agree with you, Pu-Pun is a disgusting display of min-maxing and utter game breaking (he's still awesome though). But (and this is a BIG but), Punny exists in a vacuum. The big thing about TO is that it assumes the DM is going to go along with anything that doesn't break the rules, and grasping to the most crazy of logic (Pun-Pun is just a giant example of "U Mad?"). However, sticking to the RAW, Pun-Pun happens; the Divine ranks are just icing on a cake, he doesn't really need them.

tl;dr Pun-Pun is ridiculous, but he can exist with a crazy DM

[Myth]

Actually, Pun-Pun is immune. Salient Death allows for Spell Resistance, of which Pun-Pun's is NI.

Per the link you gave:

If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw.
(Then we go look at Destruction)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Look I'm starting to take offense. Not only do you not know the rules you are arguing about, you don't even read what I write. See where I said they are not subject to SR? Now go and read the description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities).

Salient Divine Abilities and Antimagic A salient divine ability functions normally within an antimagic field, and is never subject to spell resistance.


Trying? lol I don't need to try /arrogance
Okay I may have come across as a jerk, and I apologize :smallredface:
The thing is, Punny has the ability to get the epic spells (and the ability to become immune to any kind of Death) regardless of how you feel about them; and using those epic spells and other shenanigans, he can get FAR more resources than even the gods can muster. I understand your statements and concerns, "He can't do this because of Ao" or any other reason.
And you know what? I totally agree with you, Pu-Pun is a disgusting display of min-maxing and utter game breaking (he's still awesome though). But (and this is a BIG but), Punny exists in a vacuum. The big thing about TO is that it assumes the DM is going to go along with anything that doesn't break the rules, and grasping to the most crazy of logic (Pun-Pun is just a giant example of "U Mad?"). However, sticking to the RAW, Pun-Pun happens; the Divine ranks are just icing on a cake, he doesn't really need them.

tl;dr Pun-Pun is ridiculous, but he can exist with a crazy DM

Well I know this is TO. I'm trying to find a crack to prove he is not 100% RAW legal. I've presented my thoughts and this is a discussion board after all. Epic magic is not a solution. Every deity worth it's salt would have obscene Epic spells prepared just in case. Why wouldn't they? 10,000 or so Clerics easily, as many Wizards and Sorcerers... Possibly many more worship them. Mystra? Between Harluaa and the other Magocracies she would have so many followers to sacrifice slots for her that she could develop an Epic "I win" button.

Mystra can actually cast the 10th and upward level spells. There are some printed ones like The Srinshee's Spellshift (not the reduced level 9 version in LEOF, there is a level 10 version in an AD&D book). They are beyond Pun-Pun's grasp unless she specifically lets him cast them.

Pun-Pun cannot be immune to Salient Life and Death this is not my feelings on the matter this is fact. Just read the description.

[Douglas]

You want RAW? Here is raw: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life.
Here is more RAW:
"the ability works like the destruction spell"
Necromancy [Death] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm)
Thus, it is a death effect. There are plenty of ways to be immune to those even after you take out the ones that SDAs explicitly ignore.

It's true that SR doesn't work, but being undead or a construct makes you immune, Death Ward grants immunity if it's magical (and I'm pretty sure SDAs are magical despite their ability to ignore Antimagic Field), and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Prime32]

One Manipulate Form later...

Immunity to Destruction (Ex): Pun-Pun is immune to any attempt to kill or destroy him, even abilities which would normally ignore such immunities. This ability applies retroactively.

[tcrudisi]

Look I'm starting to take offense. Not only do you not know the rules you are arguing about, you don't even read what I write. See where I said they are not subject to SR? Now go and read the description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#salientDivineAbilities).

My apologies. Yes, I did indeed read what you wrote, however, I saw nothing in the power that said that the gods got to bypass SR, only the wording which I quoted which implied that SR did indeed count, so I felt that your post was incorrect and I was pointing it out. Also, I mentioned previously that I haven't played 3.5 since very shortly after 4e came out. Do I remember all the rules? Heck no, especially at epic level where I only played once.

However, what I do know is that specific beats general. Pun-Pun can specifically give himself immunity to all SDA's, which trumps the general ability of SDA's. There's no way for a god to beat Pun-Pun in an encounter.

As another poster mentioned, Pun-Pun can achieve an infinite number of followers and resources (including time), so the gods don't even have that on him.

I do not like Pun-Pun as much as the next guy. Someone was creating Pun-Pun in the very last 3.5 game I ever played in. That is the reason I have not played 3.5 in a few years. It left a bad taste in my mouth. The problem is, like everyone says, from a theoretical perspective it cannot be stopped. All the complaints that have lodged against Pun-Pun have done nothing to disprove him; they only to say that "DM fiat beats him."

Remember, in your hypothetical fight, Pun-Pun can give himself those SDA's. Or just give himself one called, "I win initiative, even over others who have an 'I win initiative' ability."

[Myth]

I remain adamant that there is no specific rule or bit of text that states that Manipulate Form can create new abilities out of thin air. Maybe it's me being stubborn but I am looking at the book right now and although there is no restriction, there is also no generalization like "new" or "any kind". At most it's a 50/50 gray area.

Pun-Pun as he is uses Manpulate Form RAI, to give himself already printed stuff. The other thing is very liberal reading on the rules.

By the way to get back to the Ice Assasin argument, how does Pun-Pun deal with multiple angry Gods and casters casting Ice Assasin of HIM?

I can't remember now where it is stated that SDAs are divine energy and thus not subject to resistances etc. I hope someone else can help me with this.

Also, this is not about liking or disliking this TO. It's just more theory but I'm trying to test the validity of the build. I'm also not forcing you guys to participate, I find comments like the high-and-mighty "Sigh.. why do you continue to..." No! I can do this if i want. If you don't want to particiapte, don't. Don't come here telling me it's futile, at least I'm trying and I'm using my brain to test this :smallsmile:

[tcrudisi]

I remain adamant that there is no specific rule or bit of text that states that Manipulate Form can create new abilities out of thin air. Maybe it's me being stubborn but I am looking at the book right now and although there is no restriction, there is also no generalization like "new" or "any kind". At most it's a 50/50 gray area.

It may not seem like it, but I would love for you to find that one small detail which can't be repaired which causes the whole build to fall in on itself.

As for what I quoted above -- I'm wanting to compare it to spells. A spell tells you what it can do; you can therefore do anything within the spell description. If it has exceptions, it says those. Within the sarrukh's ability, it gives you what it can do. It then puts no limitations or exceptions on them. That's why I believe (but would never allow at a table) that it can create new abilities.

Sort of like Wish (once again: memory is bad). Wish said you could do anything... and then put limitations on it.

[Sir Swindle89]

By the way to get back to the Ice Assasin argument, how does Pun-Pun deal with multiple angry Gods and casters casting Ice Assasin of HIM?

He doesn't need to get around them. it's a TO so "He would be killed by inevitables"(or in this case overdiety's) arguments don't apply, you are simply building a "character" not playing it, or for the love of the nine i hope you aren't.

[Myth]

Of course I'm not I'm simply thinking.


As for what I quoted above -- I'm wanting to compare it to spells. A spell tells you what it can do; you can therefore do anything within the spell description. If it has exceptions, it says those. Within the sarrukh's ability, it gives you what it can do. It then puts no limitations or exceptions on them. That's why I believe (but would never allow at a table) that it can create new abilities.

Sort of like Wish (once again: memory is bad). Wish said you could do anything... and then put limitations on it.

Now this is giving me some things to think about. The Magic of the Sarrukh paragraph, Serpent Kingdoms page 59, references to Manipulate Form and says that "portions of it are embedded in the ability rip and trait removal spells"

Going to chapter 11, we can read those spells. Ability Rip is severely limited. Trait removal has no relevant impact. The problem is what is the correlation between Manipulate Form and Ability Rip?

[Khatoblepas]

I remain adamant that there is no specific rule or bit of text that states that Manipulate Form can create new abilities out of thin air. Maybe it's me being stubborn but I am looking at the book right now and although there is no restriction, there is also no generalization like "new" or "any kind". At most it's a 50/50 gray area.

Pun-Pun as he is uses Manpulate Form RAI, to give himself already printed stuff. The other thing is very liberal reading on the rules.

By the way to get back to the Ice Assasin argument, how does Pun-Pun deal with multiple angry Gods and casters casting Ice Assasin of HIM?


It's simple. Pun Pun has:

Singular Enemy (Ex): Although Pun Pun is visible to all, only his intended victim can harm him. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering him in no way.

His Singular Enemy? His viper familiar. The viper also has Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun). No amount of Ice Assassins can harm him, since they are not his Viper familiar, and the Viper familiar can't be hurt, since they are not Pun Pun. They are creatures with abilities identical to Pun Pun, but they are not him. A shame for the Ice Assassins, really. They still have Singular Enemy (Viper/Pun-Pun).

People always forget the Punster has a NI ability ally with him. And that the Alaex is an official WoTC monster that is immune to any damage.


Now this is giving me some things to think about. The Magic of the Sarrukh paragraph, Serpent Kingdoms page 59, references to Manipulate Form and says that "portions of it are embedded in the ability rip and trait removal spells"

Going to chapter 11, we can read those spells. Ability Rip is severely limited. Trait removal has no relevant impact. The problem is what is the correlation between Manipulate Form and Ability Rip?

It's supposed to be a watered down version of it, since Sarrukhs are a Progenitor race that created all other snake races on Toril. It's like the remenants of a divine spark useful as plot hooks and dangerous spells used by NPCs that have researched the Sarrukh. Just fluff, since Ability Rip and Trait Removal are derivative of Manipulate Form, not the other way around.

[tcrudisi]

Singular Enemy (Ex): Although Pun Pun is visible to all, only his intended victim can harm him. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering him in no way.

Is that a real ability? I mean, one that is not made up?

[Khatoblepas]

Is that a real ability? I mean, one that is not made up?

Book of Exalted Deeds pg 159. Alaex.

It's been discussed before that Pun Pun just gives himself this ability. It's a real, published ability, that's uncontestable.

[Tharkie]

Why do people persist in trying to 'prove' that Pun-Pun doesn't work?

For the same reason that other people try to prove that he does.

[Tyndmyr]

That still doesn't say how Ao trumps Pun-Pun going to another realm or simply creating an ability called "Ao is my slave. Anything I desire is now his desire and he will do anything within his power to give it to me."

That depends on the existence of another realm. The cosmology isn't such that say, Eberron and Faerun are guaranteed to be accessible. They might be, depending on what the DM has decided to include, but I don't know of a RAW way to ensure that you can shift right out of Faerun. Spelljammer is no longer available by RAW in 3.5.

I disagree that Manipulate Form can assign made up abilities. Any ability means any existing ability in the same way that being able to learn any spell means any existing spell, not any spell you can think up. This is still ludicrously powerful, but it interprets "any" in a way that is consistent with the usual use of it. You can get the stupid stats and a *lot* of abilities without it.

Portfolio Sense can end Pun-Pun entirely, but that's no fun at all. It also applies to pretty much any way of achieving godhood.

Ao's approval is required in Faerun. This is a given, but it's not actually that problematic unless you get into Portfolio Sense. Pun Pun just has to kill a god. Any god will do. This is what NI stats and all those abilities are for. Then he merely has to claim the now-empty portfolio. So, he can become a diety, sure, it just requires a slightly longer route. Slightly. Unfortunately, if he intends to usurp Ao, Portfolio Sense screws him, but if he merely wants to become a decently powerful diety in addition to his pun-pun goodness, it's not that ridiculous. Just wait a while between becoming pun-pun and going after a target god. Pun-pun has an awesome knowledge:Religion. He'll pick the right god, and know enough to wait a while to avoid breaking time.

[Myth]

I'm glad some people see things my way :smallsmile: I couldn't have worded it better myself, as far as Manipulate Form is concerned!

A side note, Spelljammer ships do exist in 3.5 Faerun. The Sun Elves in Evermeet have them. Somehow I don't think Pun-Pun can take them by force though. Qeen Amlauril Moonlfower is Chosen of all the Seldarine, and they might object to her slaying.

Now if there was only a way for me to prove that Salient Divine Abilites are not subject to any immunities mortal creatures might have...

On a side note, a great many people here argue not to bring in fluff in a RAW argument. Well guys guess what - there is no actual mechanic behind "slay a God, get his Divine Ranks". It has happened in a story, but you won't find any solid numbers behind it. So it's not as easy to farm Deities as you think.

There is also the case of what happens if Pun-Pun kills a Deity that has Rejuvenation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#rejuvenation). Does he lose his Divine Ranks once the original God springs back to life? Do both of them keep them? I'd go for the former.

[Douglas]

Ah, but the "kill a god before becoming one" fluff argument is purely in response to another fluff argument - that Ao wouldn't approve a new deity without a portfolio available for him. It's not "kill a god, gain that god's divine ranks as seen in fluff", it's "kill a god so that a portfolio is available so Ao will not negate the already established non-fluff means of gaining divinity".

[boj0]

I'm glad some people see things my way :smallsmile: I couldn't have worded it better myself, as far as Manipulate Form is concerned!

Wait, so you're only going to positively acknowledge posts that agree with yours? There is no point in having a debate if you're only looking for agreement and gratification.
Also, we already said that Manipulate Form only gave pre-existing abilities; its the use of (wait for it...) EPIC SPELLS that let him make abilities out of thin air.


A side note, Spelljammer ships do exist in 3.5 Faerun. The Sun Elves in Evermeet have them. Somehow I don't think Pun-Pun can take them by force though. Qeen Amlauril Moonlfower is Chosen of all the Seldarine, and they might object to her slaying.

Pun-Pun does not require such vulgar things as force, he will simply make a DC NI+50 diplomacy check to make them his willing slaves. Even if you fiat them into being non-negotiable, he still has more firepower than the FR pantheon combined. He will take that ship. :smallcool:


Now if there was only a way for me to prove that Salient Divine Abilites are not subject to any immunities mortal creatures might have...

Again, any ability the gods have is negated by the Singular Enemy ability, Punny and his viper (who I'm fond of naming Jörmungandr) are the only ones who can harm each other; and they're too good of bros to let that happen.
Also, Epic spells (Pun-Pun makes a spell of "Screw any attempt the gods have of killing me" makes it a retroactive spell with a casting time of a free action; due to a Spellcraft check of d20+NI, he will always succeed).


On a side note, a great many people here argue not to bring in fluff in a RAW argument. Well guys guess what - there is no actual mechanic behind "slay a God, get his Divine Ranks". It has happened in a story, but you won't find any solid numbers behind it. So it's not as easy to farm Deities as you think.

Wait..what? Pun-Pun uses Ice Assassin/Diplomacy to get his Divine Ranks; and who said anything about killing gods for DR? We kill them to cull the herd and allow our slave Ao to fit us in the pantheon. Plus with his ridiculous Knowledge: Religion/History/Forbidden Lore/Planes checks, he'll know how to kill any of the gods regardless.


There is also the case of what happens if Pun-Pun kills a Deity that has Rejuvenation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#rejuvenation). Does he lose his Divine Ranks once the original God springs back to life? Do both of them keep them? I'd go for the former.

Pun-Pun gives his Divine Ranks to a group of squirrels (seriously), and recalls them later for NI ranks, he never has to kill a god, just convince one to make him a proxy for a little bit; cast Ice Assassin of a different god and repeat ad nausea. Also, remember that the Ice Assassin is the one giving him ranks, so it won't attempt to take them back at all, and our friend Diplomacy makes sure none of the other gods would try to get all up in his business.

I'm really not sure why you're so adamant about disproving a theoretical character anyway, no one will ever try to play as Pun-Pun, that's like saying I'm going to bring a nuclear weapon to a paintball game; yeah I'll win, but nobody is having fun. It was, is, and always will be a simple exercise in abusing the 3.5 rule system.
/rant

[Tyndmyr]

Wait, so you're only going to positively acknowledge posts that agree with yours? There is no point in having a debate if you're only looking for agreement and gratification.
Also, we already said that Manipulate Form only gave pre-existing abilities; its the use of (wait for it...) EPIC SPELLS that let him make abilities out of thin air.

Granted epic spellcasting is broken in formula...however, by RAW, epic spell creation does require DM approval.

From the SRD:

Approval

This is the final step, and it’s critically important. The epic spell development work and reasoning must be shown to the GM and receive his or her approval. If the GM doesn’t approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed. However, the GM should explain why the epic spell wasn’t approved and possibly offer suggestions on how to create an epic spell that will be acceptable.

I argue that assuming a GM will approve anything, or ignoring the step altogether is not RAW. Therefore, using any new epic spell cannot be assumed by RAW. Note that all existing printed epic spells are not subject to the above description, and Pun-Pun can be assumed to have access to them.


Pun-Pun does not require such vulgar things as force, he will simply make a DC NI+50 diplomacy check to make them his willing slaves. Even if you fiat them into being non-negotiable, he still has more firepower than the FR pantheon combined. He will take that ship. :smallcool:

Oh, no argument there. I'm not overly worried about Pun-pun making mortal enemies.

I just don't see how, by RAW, he gets to cross over to a non-Faerun cosmology no longer subject to Ao. So he gets his ship and sails...but where to? And where exactly does he sail into a different cosmology, within 3.5 rules?


Again, any ability the gods have is negated by the Singular Enemy ability, Punny and his viper (who I'm fond of naming Jörmungandr) are the only ones who can harm each other; and they're too good of bros to let that happen.
Also, Epic spells (Pun-Pun makes a spell of "Screw any attempt the gods have of killing me" makes it a retroactive spell with a casting time of a free action; due to a Spellcraft check of d20+NI, he will always succeed).

Singular Enemy is pretty potent. You can of course, prevent people from achieving something without actually harming them. But I'm confident in saying that there's a diety Pun-Pun can kill if he wishes. Which one...meh, I'll leave that up to taste, but he's got sufficiently crazy abilities that he is stronger than many who have previously killed gods.

The epic spell bit can safely be ignored due to the preceding issue, but it's not actually that necessary.


Wait..what? Pun-Pun uses Ice Assassin/Diplomacy to get his Divine Ranks; and who said anything about killing gods for DR? We kill them to cull the herd and allow our slave Ao to fit us in the pantheon. Plus with his ridiculous Knowledge: Religion/History/Forbidden Lore/Planes checks, he'll know how to kill any of the gods regardless.

An ice assassin is not a complete duplicate. It is a "near perfect duplicate". Aspects copied are as follows: Visual appearance(for all but the caster), skills, abilities, memories.

None of those are DR. So, by RAW, it does not get DR. It only gets those things ascribed to it.

I would argue that this does not end the possibility of Pun Pun gaining DR...for surely his knowledge:religion is such that he knows how the previous gods gained their DR. And he can, as already mentioned, kill gods.


I'm really not sure why you're so adamant about disproving a theoretical character anyway, no one will ever try to play as Pun-Pun, that's like saying I'm going to bring a nuclear weapon to a paintball game; yeah I'll win, but nobody is having fun. It was, is, and always will be a simple exercise in abusing the 3.5 rule system.
/rant

For the same reason as any other TO argument. It's fun to prove or disprove them.

[boj0]

Granted epic spellcasting is broken in formula...however, by RAW, epic spell creation does require DM approval.

From the SRD:
I argue that assuming a GM will approve anything, or ignoring the step altogether is not RAW. Therefore, using any new epic spell cannot be assumed by RAW. Note that all existing printed epic spells are not subject to the above description, and Pun-Pun can be assumed to have access to them.


I agree, no DM will allow any shenanigans of Pun-Pun; but again, the assumption of TO is that it exists in a vacuum and anything not against the rules is allowed (like those builds that always assume you can just make a masterwork skill item of whatever).
So yes, we take liberties in making epic spells, but I could just say that in my campaign, I allow those epic spells to exist.

EDIT: In regards to where Punny would take the ship: Sigil

[Tyndmyr]

You could, but it's a DM specific ruling. TO should not rely on a DM ruling any specific way. After all, the exact same restriction exists for regular spell creation.

If you ignore explicit calls for DM approval, then ANY character with spellcasting can do anything at level one.

[Sir Swindle89]

If we really want to avoid Ice Assassins can't Pun-Pun just use his Diplomancy to convince all of the gods give him their ranks rather than making Ice Assassins of them? He can even kill them afterward so they can't take them back.

[boj0]

I think the justification comes form the ability to give epic spells an insanely high DC to "compensate". For example, if I wanted to create a version of time stop that lasted 24 hours (in the caster's time frame), and stackable. I could say that the DC is arbitrarily high to make up for that. I think DC 100 Billion is a fair way to control time, but the thing with Pun-Pun, is he can seriously give himself those ridiculous stats and make the check without a sweat.

[Tyndmyr]

It's a reasonable justification, and perhaps one that DMs would listen to and allow, but there is no RAW for your request being automatically accepted as a result. You specifically need DM approval to create an epic spell, and in TO, there is no DM to approve it. Therefore, no matter how reasonable the request, it's not accessible.

Talking to dieties is an option. If they allow him to speak to him by any means(or he manages to anyhow) for long enough to do a diplomacy check(a standard action normally), he should be able to make an arbitrarily convincing case.

Sigil is an interesting possibility. How do you get the RAW connection from Faerun to Sigil specifically? And how do you avoid the plot device that is the lady of pain?

[Myth]

Wait, so you're only going to positively acknowledge posts that agree with yours? There is no point in having a debate if you're only looking for agreement and gratification.
Also, we already said that Manipulate Form only gave pre-existing abilities; its the use of (wait for it...) EPIC SPELLS that let him make abilities out of thin air.

Well I acknowledge when you guys make a solid point that I can't object to, and show evidence that disproves my own claims (like the entry that actually proves that gods=creatures). I hardly think anyone is deserving of praise for ganging up on me, asking me why I'm even doing this thread (several times already has this question arised), or simply defending the easier side of the debate (relying on already composed builds and exploits). I'm trying to use my head and find a crack in the adamantite fortress that is a build that has been perfected over the course of years.

In that regard Tyndmyr is the only one who has chosen to try and argue for me and my attempt at theoretical DnD, and honestly his/her arguments are 100% what I would have said. I was so pleasantly surprised that I'm not even going to address your other points as they have been answered by Tyndmyr in much the same fashion I would.

Now regarding Ice Asassin you can read the whole thread and see multiple stabs and jabs at this mockery of a spell. It's not 100% clear if it works by RAW. My main point from the OP has not yet been reliably disproved - in Faerun Divne Ranks are not inherent powers of a deity, they are earned based on the number of worshipers the deity has. The Ice Asassin trick won't grant jack squat without the massive numbers follwers for Pun-Pun. Gaining massive numbers of followers via Diplomancy or other shenanigans means he steps on the toes of other Deities and more importantly Ao.

Regarding the Diplomacy check: Umm the most he could achieve by RAW is change their attitude to Helpful. Fanatical is [Mind-Affecting] and will not work.

Helpful: Will take risks to help you Possible actions: Protect, back up, heal, aid.

He could get a +1 stick I suppose. Or a stat increase. But if Diplomacy allowed for Divine Rank stealing at Helpful then everyone would be screwing Mystra to get the Chosen template and people other than Larloch, the Magister and Elminster would be allowed to cast lvl 10 and higher spells.

[Sir Swindle89]

I think you missed the part were the boats we're stealing have Spelljamming helms so they can go to space. via spell jammer rules you can fly through the crystal shperes into other campaign settings.

[boj0]

It's a reasonable justification, and perhaps one that DMs would listen to and allow, but there is no RAW for your request being automatically accepted as a result. You specifically need DM approval to create an epic spell, and in TO, there is no DM to approve it. Therefore, no matter how reasonable the request, it's not accessible.

Talking to dieties is an option. If they allow him to speak to him by any means(or he manages to anyhow) for long enough to do a diplomacy check(a standard action normally), he should be able to make an arbitrarily convincing case.

Sigil is an interesting possibility. How do you get the RAW connection from Faerun to Sigil specifically? And how do you avoid the plot device that is the lady of pain?

You make an interesting argument against the use of epic spells, I'll have to see if I can find a way to make them legit. :smallwink:

I believe (AFB right now) that Sigil does have a connection to any of the other planes; and as for the Lady of Pain she falls under the same category as Ao: either a DM fiat given name (thus rendered moot in an optimal TO exercise), or an NPC and subject to Diplomacy cheese.

As a side note: I've never quite understood the appeal of Ao and the Lady of Pain, they just seem to be there...to be there. No rhyme or reason, just an excuse for writers and DMs to pull out a Deus Ex Machina when written into a corner. "Lulz, they're so powerful we won't even give them stat blocks because they're so strong!" Just name them Mary and Gary Sue and be done with it :smallannoyed: When used by lazy DMs, they seem to make up for not being able to deal with plot holes that were haphazardly created and an inability to rein in players without actually putting your foot down. /rant

[Sir Swindle89]

Sigil would be an awful place to go to achieve god hood. Since the Lady of Pain boots any gods that go there.

[The Glyphstone]

Sigil would be an awful place to go to achieve god hood. Since the Lady of Pain boots any gods that go there.

You don't go to Sigil for godhood. You go to Sigil because it has a portal/door to anywhere you want, letting you visit any other campaign setting you want where there is no Ao to get in the way of becoming an overdeity. It's an intermediate stop, not the destination.

[Myth]

I think she flays them and roasts them over an arbitrarily hot campfire. She killed one Deity already and almost killed another (Vecna).

The minute Punners tries making an Ice Assasin with Divne Ranks she will come (no Deities inside Sigil and all that). From then on it's all so gruesome.

Ah Portals - how easy to locate are they? Also remember that the chosen setting is important, it must have statted deities with Divine Rank. Ravenloft is out and Eberron is probably out. Greyhawk?

[The Glyphstone]

I think she flays them and roasts them over an arbitrarily hot campfire. She killed one Deity already and almost killed another (Vecna).

The minute Punners tries making an Ice Assasin with Divne Ranks she will come (no Deities inside Sigil and all that). From then on it's all so gruesome.

Indeed, which is why you don't cast Ice Assassin in Sigil, but once you're out of Sigil and into Ebberon/Dragonlance/Greyhawk/Etc. Lady don't give a care what you do then.

[boj0]

Yes! Dragonlance! The gods there will be so happy to have someone talking to them and happy about it, they will probably jump at the chance to make you a god. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir Swindle89]

You don't go to Sigil for godhood. You go to Sigil because it has a portal/door to anywhere you want, letting you visit any other campaign setting you want where there is no Ao to get in the way of becoming an overdeity. It's an intermediate stop, not the destination.

But weren't they picking a place to spelljam to? The best answer being any where that there isn't an overdiety calling the shots.

[boj0]

Regarding the Diplomacy check: Umm the most he could achieve by RAW is change their attitude to Helpful. Fanatical is [Mind-Affecting] and will not work.

Helpful: Will take risks to help you Possible actions: Protect, back up, heal, aid.

He could get a +1 stick I suppose. Or a stat increase. But if Diplomacy allowed for Divine Rank stealing at Helpful then everyone would be screwing Mystra to get the Chosen template and people other than Larloch, the Magister and Elminster would be allowed to cast lvl 10 and higher spells.

Fair enough. In that case, Bluff.
+20 to DC for a bluff that is "...way out there, almost too incredible to consider." So even if Deity X has a Sense Motive of +150, Pun-Pun easily has a Bluff higher than 2 billion, he doesn't need to use the epic Bluff for a suggestion (which he couldn't do I guess).
"Hey Ao, where is my divinity bro?"
"FOOLISH MORTAL, YOU DARE THINK I WOULD GIVE MY GREATEST BOON TO AN UPSTART SUCH AS YOURSELF?"
"Dude, you totally said you would do this like, a week ago!" *Astronomical Bluff check*
"MY BAD PUN-PUN, HERE IS YOUR GODHOOD."
trollface.jpg

EDIT: Gate in a Saruhk or whatever they're called in a different plane (one without Ao) and avoid that whole situation all together.

EDIT2: @ sir_swindle: you go to Sigil, then go from there to anywhere in the entirety of D&D, go to Dark Sun and start casting Ice Age, laugh at Eberron for having such low-level NPCs, visit Krynn and smack around some Mary Sues!

[The Glyphstone]

But weren't they picking a place to spelljam to? The best answer being any where that there isn't an overdiety calling the shots.

I think they were two different solutions. One was to spelljam to another crystal sphere, the other was to go to Sigil as a stepping-stone. I don't think you can Spelljam to Sigil, since it physically exists on the Outer Planes, not the Prime.

[Myth]

Fair enough. In that case, Bluff.
+20 to DC for a bluff that is "...way out there, almost too incredible to consider." So even if Deity X has a Sense Motive of +150, Pun-Pun easily has a Bluff higher than 2 billion, he doesn't need to use the epic Bluff for a suggestion (which he couldn't do I guess).
"Hey Ao, where is my divinity bro?"
"FOOLISH MORTAL, YOU DARE THINK I WOULD GIVE MY GREATEST BOON TO AN UPSTART SUCH AS YOURSELF?"
"Dude, you totally said you would do this like, a week ago!" *Astronomical Bluff check*
"MY BAD PUN-PUN, HERE IS YOUR GODHOOD."
trollface.jpg

EDIT: Gate in a Saruhk or whatever they're called in a different plane (one without Ao) and avoid that whole situation all together.

Umm apart from the 4cahn speak I'd have to say this possibly could work as there is no DM to say ":smallannoyed: ... No." However suggestion is out because again, it's [Mind-Affecting] even if it's nonmagical. With regular bluff he almost could do it, if it weren't for this text "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell."

The effects are not lasting so it will not work.

Like some other posters here, you seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding the 3.5 cosmology.

Gate allows travel between the Planes and calling creatures. Gate in a Balor? OK!

However all these planes are still in the same Crystal sphere that houses the world of Toril. That's where AO is top dog. There are multiple instances of the same planes (Baator or the Elemental Planes for example) in different Crystal Spheres. There are multiple instances of the gods as well.

Faerun aka the Forgotten Realms aka Toril and it's Crystal Sphere are under Ao's supervision. They have a Correlon Larethian, patron of the Elves.

Greyhawk, which is another setting and therefore another Crystal Sphere, has it's own Correlon, who is a different instance of the Elven god. Makes sense?

Gate can't let you call creatures from another sphere, nor can it let you travel to one. By RAW you have to travel trough Wildspace (a nasty, naaaasty thing) in a Spelljammer ship.

However entering another sphere puts you under that sphere's Overgod. Like Greyhawk's Io if memory serves. Or Ravenloft's (umm can't remember? I know they're nasty).

[Khatoblepas]

However entering another sphere puts you under that sphere's Overgod. Like Greyhawk's Io if memory serves. Or Ravenloft's (umm can't remember? I know they're nasty).

Why not just ascend to overdeity status while you're in your Spelljammer travelling through the phlogiston? You're Pun Pun, so any dangers are quickly quelled, and you're in planar international waters.

Become an overdeity without being in any particular setting. Literally sidestepping the whole problem.

[boj0]

Umm apart from the 4cahn speak I'd have to say this possibly could work as there is no DM to say ":smallannoyed: ... No." >comparing me to a 4chan user is not productive at allHowever suggestion is out because again, it's [Mind-Affecting] even if it's nonmagical. With regular bluff he almost could do it, if it weren't for this text "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell."
>I specifically said we would be using the non-epic version, becuse the Bluff check was still high enough
The effects are not lasting so it will not work.
>He only needs one round to proxy the DR
Like some other posters here, you seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding the 3.5 cosmology.
>Again, the fluff of the cosmology has no bearing considering we can go to other planes of existance

Gate allows travel between the Planes and calling creatures. Gate in a Balor? OK!

However all these planes are still in the same Crystal sphere that houses the world of Toril. That's where AO is top dog. There are multiple instances of the same planes (Baator or the Elemental Planes for example) in different Crystal Spheres. There are multiple instances of the gods as well.

Faerun aka the Forgotten Realms aka Toril >aka Drizztland and it's Crystal Sphere are under Ao's supervision. They have a Correlon Larethian, patron of the Elves.

Greyhawk, which is another setting and therefore another Crystal Sphere, has it's own Correlon, who is a different instance of the Elven god. Makes sense?
>Only in D&D could this make sense
Gate can't let you call creatures from another sphere, nor can it let you travel to one. By RAW you have to travel trough Wildspace (a nasty, naaaasty thing) in a Spelljammer ship.
>There is no 3.5 ruling to even say you have to do that, also Pun-Pun can handle any and all problems that could possibly occur in Wildspace
>Also, Dominate a Saruhk before hoping on the ship, then travel
However entering another sphere puts you under that sphere's Overgod. Like Greyhawk's Io if memory serves. Or Ravenloft's (umm can't remember? I know they're nasty).
>Go to Krynn, Chaos was banished, by mortals no less
I'm not going to bother breaking this one up, read my statements on each.

[Myth]

Why not just ascend to overdeity status while you're in your Spelljammer travelling through the phlogiston? You're Pun Pun, so any dangers are quickly quelled, and you're in planar international waters.

Become an overdeity without being in any particular setting. Literally sidestepping the whole problem.

Hmm.. But how would you do that? Your spells can't reach past the boundaries of a Crystal Sphere.

boj0: I'm sorry, with the references you are making It is hard not to mention that.

In any event, Pun-Pun will have a divine rank for one round. The most he can do is start the proxy loop. But come round 2 Pun-Pun loses his divine ranks because Ao demotes him back to mortal form. He'd be a DR2 deity by that time, so an Overdeity such as Ao would still be able to trump him.

[Tael]

Hmm.. But how would you do that? Your spells can't reach past the boundaries of a Crystal Sphere.

boj0: I'm sorry, with the references you are making It is hard not to mention that.

In any event, Pun-Pun will have a divine rank for one round. The most he can do is start the proxy loop. But come round 2 Pun-Pun loses his divine ranks because Ao demotes him back to mortal form. He'd be a DR2 deity by that time, so an Overdeity such as Ao would still be able to trump him.

Incorrect. If Pun-Pun can ascertain Divine Ranks at all, he becomes an overdiety in one round, as he uses the affinity trick to get infinite actions.

[Psychotic]

Stop mentioning fluff, at all, no, not even then. It has absolutely no bearing on Pun-Pun as a legal build.

Quoted for truth.

Mechanically, without any DM interference, Pun-Pun works.

While Ao and the Lady of Pain are DM fiats (something that we agree should never ever have to be used), Pun-Pun is basically the great equalizer. He is, in a sense, the PC fiat.

Just leave him be and let this thread die. Pun Pun is a monument to TO and there are a lot of people willing to fight tooth and nail to keep it where it is.

[true_shinken]

Really, Sarrukhs should be basically gods anyway. Even without divine ranks, Pun-Pun still achieves NI every stat and (even with your interpretation) every ability, which includes epic spellcasting and immunity to everything. So why aren't they CR infinte? They would be if they (ab)used their own power.
Manipulate Form does not work on a sarrukh, that's why.

[Myth]

Quoted for truth.

Mechanically, without any DM interference, Pun-Pun works.

While Ao and the Lady of Pain are DM fiats (something that we agree should never ever have to be used), Pun-Pun is basically the great equalizer. He is, in a sense, the PC fiat.

Just leave him be and let this thread die. Pun Pun is a monument to TO and there are a lot of people willing to fight tooth and nail to keep it where it is.

So you have nothing relevant to add but wish to tell me to drop it because you don't think Pun-Pun can be proven to not work?


Incorrect. If Pun-Pun can ascertain Divine Ranks at all, he becomes an overdiety in one round, as he uses the affinity trick to get infinite actions.

Does his familiar get unlimited actions too? What about the fact that there is only one round but two separate creatures have to act to do the loop? One round of infinite actions does not equal one round of infinite simultaneous actions for two different beings.

[Boci]

So you have nothing relevant to add but wish to tell me to drop it because you don't think Pun-Pun can be proven to not work?

But haven't you already acknowledged that with no DM to say no, Pun-Pun works? Because that is all the origional creator and the char opers who have since worked on Pun-Pun claims about it, so argueing anything else is rather pointless.

[Prime32]

I think she flays them and roasts them over an arbitrarily hot campfire. She killed one Deity already and almost killed another (Vecna).

The minute Punners tries making an Ice Assasin with Divne Ranks she will come (no Deities inside Sigil and all that). From then on it's all so gruesome.Huh? I thought that if a god entered Sigil he would gain enough power to rewrite the game rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Vecna_Die!).

[true_shinken]

So you have nothing relevant to add but wish to tell me to drop it because you don't think Pun-Pun can be proven to not work?

He is just saying, like many said before, that Ao is an NPC. Saying something does not work because an NPC can prevent it is silly.
It's like saying you can't roll a zhent because Elminster would kill them. The actions a NPC takes in a game are not RAW. You have a point that Ao could stop PunPun's ascension. Others have said so many times before; it's not even an original idea, dude. It just stands on this - RAW, Ao can perceive the attemp at ascension. RAW, he can choose to intervene. As others mentioned, the Lady of Pain for example could also interfere. Is it in character for Ao to do this? Maybe; depends on the Ao you're talking about. Time of Troubles' Ao is hard to figure out and basically makes no sense. Before, he was apathetic and cared about nothing. Even if it is in character, whatever Ao does it is not RAW.
So we're back to 'you're saying it doesn't work because you can houserule otherwise'.

[Boci]

He is just saying, like many said before, that Ao is an NPC. Saying something does not work because an NPC can prevent it is silly.
It's like saying you can't roll a zhent because Elminster would kill them. The actions a NPC takes in a game are not RAW. You have a point that Ao could stop PunPun's ascension. Others have said so many times before; it's not even an original idea, dude. It just stands on this - RAW, Ao can perceive the attemp at ascension. RAW, he can choose to intervene. As others mentioned, the Lady of Pain for example could also interfere. Is it in character for Ao to do this? Maybe; depends on the Ao you're talking about. Time of Troubles' Ao is hard to figure out and basically makes no sense. Before, he was apathetic and cared about nothing. Even if it is in character, whatever Ao does it is not RAW.
So we're back to 'you're saying it doesn't work because you can houserule otherwise'.

Didn't one if the earlier Pun-Pun threads have a FAQ section one of which was:

"But wouldn't the gods...?"
"Irrelivant, Pun-Pun is about loopholves in RAW, noy a reliable way in game to ascend to ultimate cosmic power."

[Myth]

I'd ask the newcomers to the thread to read everything before assuming stuff.

As I've said before I'm trying to find a valid RAW reason on why Pun-Pun does not work. I still believe everyone took that build for granted and put it on a pedestal and now blindly regard it as "the best TO EVER!".

If you do go back and read everything I and others have said, you'd see that the Ao argument is by far not the only one. Three major arguments have been made, abut the infamous Manipulate Form which IMO does not allow you to make up new abilities, about Ice Assasin NOT being able to grant Divine Ranks because it can't copy them (Divine Ranks are not abilities that a God has by default they are tied to the size of his chirch + the RAW description of what it can copy excludes Divine Rank) and that Epic spells can't be abused by RAW since by RAW anything other than the printed example Epic magic is subject to DM approval (which you guys hate right?)

So yes, there is more to this thread than the last page or two that were about Ao. Before anyone else comes and says "Pun-Pun works RAW and you should not attempt to prove otherwise using thought and discussion in this discussion forum, because GO AWAY!" please read everything first. If you fundamentally hate the concept of anyone challenging this build just ignore this thread.

[boj0]

And you have yet to prove that he doesn't work; you say Ice Assassin and DR proxies and ascension don't work, but you have no hard and fast rules that say they don't, short of DM fiat. That's the problem, TO makes the assumption that DMs won't handwave something because they don't like it. If there isn't a rule that says "no" then TO assumes that the answer is "yes".
And no, this doesn't turn into a slippery slope, ("Well it doesn't say fighters can't shoot lasers out of their eyes!" is a common counter-argument, there is not a rule regarding eye lasers for fighters so its a moot point), there is a debate that Ice Assassin lets you create a copy of a god with its DR intact, TO assumes that it does.

[Tael]

Does his familiar get unlimited actions too? What about the fact that there is only one round but two separate creatures have to act to do the loop? One round of infinite actions does not equal one round of infinite simultaneous actions for two different beings.

Yes it can. Especially with psionics.

Alright, in more depth, the entire trick relies on normally using fission, and can easily include your familiar.

[true_shinken]

If you do go back and read everything I and others have said, you'd see that the Ao argument is by far not the only one. Three major arguments have been made, abut the infamous Manipulate Form which IMO does not allow you to make up new abilities, about Ice Assasin NOT being able to grant Divine Ranks because it can't copy them (Divine Ranks are not abilities that a God has by default they are tied to the size of his chirch + the RAW description of what it can copy excludes Divine Rank) and that Epic spells can't be abused by RAW since by RAW anything other than the printed example Epic magic is subject to DM approval (which you guys hate right?)


All you said was mentioned before. There is no absolute RAW on those; they are badly worded.
Even without divine ranks and without epic spells PunPun has NI stats and all abilities in the game. That is still the most powerful character ever.

[boj0]

Not to mention that if we remove the gentleman's agreement to not create random abilities with Manipulate Form, he doesn't need any of those (and Pun-Pun plays dirty).

[The Big Dice]

All you said was mentioned before. There is no absolute RAW on those; they are badly worded.
Even without divine ranks and without epic spells PunPun has NI stats and all abilities in the game. That is still the most powerful character ever.

Those stats are created in increments. Which means it takes time to reach absurd levels, and they fall a long way short of infinite. Yes, they are arbitrarily large, but as the adage goes, if it has stats, there's a PC out there that can kill it.

[NEO|Phyte]

Those stats are created in increments. Which means it takes time to reach absurd levels, and they fall a long way short of infinite. Yes, they are arbitrarily large, but as the adage goes, if it has stats, there's a PC out there that can kill it.

Not when those stats include Singular Enemy (Ex).

[Zombieboots]

Side note: The level 5 version is my favorite. Pazuzu feels like cheating even by TO standards since it's not really using a mechanic to get started.

Agreed! Theoretical is right. After you call Pazuzu, but before he summons himself he gets a MindRead (no Save) on the Summoner to check to see if he wants to be summoned in the first place. That was what his first 3.5 incarnation in a Dragon mag said. I'm unsure if they kept that aspect in the source book he got printed in. but I still doubt he'd be willing to be the solo reason for an over-deity to be born.
Even if Pazuzu does not get a mind read before hand, his personality depicts him as the style of Demon that corrupts the Pure of Heart. Why would he care about a Kobold? Ever? One that is particularly more inclined to math instead of good intentions? There is such a thing as ignoring DM Fiat and then Relying on DM Fiat in your favour.

The 5th level (and 3rd level) version although not lacking in any cheese at least don't have to rely on a separate beings decision (practicably one that is controlled by the DM and never a player.) Barring certain familiars.

Very Theoretical. ugh. end Rant.

That was extremely therapeutic.

[Boci]

Agreed! Theoretical is right. After you call Pazuzu, but before he summons himself he gets a MindRead (no Save) on the Summoner to check to see if he wants to be summoned in the first place. That was what his first 3.5 incarnation in a Dragon mag said. I'm unsure if they kept that aspect in the source book he got printed in. but I still doubt he'd be willing to be the solo reason for an over-deity to be born.

Why not? It should create quite a bit of inbalance and chaos. The source book descriptions mentions that he uses mind read more to make sure it isn't a trap.


Even if Pazuzu does not get a mind read before hand, his personality depicts him as the style of Demon that corrupts the Pure of Heart. Why would he care about a Kobold? Ever? One that is particularly more inclined to math instead of good intentions? There is such a thing as ignoring DM Fiat and then Relying on DM Fiat in your favour.

hence the popularity of a paladin, since the source book notes he is especially fond of granting wishes to paladins and negative results never occur from that.

[faceroll]

Pun-pun doesn't exist because the first Saarrukhs already ascended using their manipulate form ability, and they now police the cosmos to prevent any usurption.

[Boci]

Pun-pun doesn't exist because the first Saarrukhs already ascended using their manipulate form ability, and they now police the cosmos to prevent any usurption.

Pretty sure it was already mentioned that they cannot use it on thermselves.

[faceroll]

Pretty sure it was already mentioned that they cannot use it on thermselves.

You've got to dream bigger, darling.

[Shinigaze]

I'd ask the newcomers to the thread to read everything before assuming stuff.

As I've said before I'm trying to find a valid RAW reason on why Pun-Pun does not work. I still believe everyone took that build for granted and put it on a pedestal and now blindly regard it as "the best TO EVER!".

If you do go back and read everything I and others have said, you'd see that the Ao argument is by far not the only one. Three major arguments have been made, abut the infamous Manipulate Form which IMO does not allow you to make up new abilities, about Ice Assasin NOT being able to grant Divine Ranks because it can't copy them (Divine Ranks are not abilities that a God has by default they are tied to the size of his chirch + the RAW description of what it can copy excludes Divine Rank) and that Epic spells can't be abused by RAW since by RAW anything other than the printed example Epic magic is subject to DM approval (which you guys hate right?)

So yes, there is more to this thread than the last page or two that were about Ao. Before anyone else comes and says "Pun-Pun works RAW and you should not attempt to prove otherwise using thought and discussion in this discussion forum, because GO AWAY!" please read everything first. If you fundamentally hate the concept of anyone challenging this build just ignore this thread.

I think the source of the repeated arguments here is not so much whether or not Pun-Pun is actually RAW, but that the arguers are operating from two different viewpoints that hinge off of the same decision. Like the argument about epic spells, it has been stated that Pun-Pun exists in a situation where the DM will approve anything that is not explicitly breaking the rules. Now I don't know a lot about Epic Spells so I am probably wrong, but from the way it's worded in this thread is that Epic Spells let you create spells for yourself, subject to DM approval, which as stated is approved because it doesn't break the written rules. The other side says that specifically because there is no DM to approve the Epic Spell it cannot be created, so therefore this argument cannot be resolved because it hinges on the DM. This is also true for the Ao debate, one says that you need Ao's approval to become a deity, which is the DM. So according to the idea behind TO he does as long as the prerequisites are met (there being an open slot to be filled), but the other side seems to be operating under the assumption that Ao(DM) won't approve of Pun-Pun (though I may be wrong). As for the DR issue, if Ao approves of Pun-Pun who's to say he can't use his amazing diplomacy to gain a church of millions of followers and increase his DR that way? Oh and as a footnote, I am not the most experienced of D&Ders so if I am wrong on anything please take no offense.

[boj0]

No, you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Pun-Pun works unless the DM says otherwise.