Optimisation and misconceptions.

[katrex]

Sorry that I had aboslutely no idea what to title this topic.

Fundamentally i would like to discuss all this stuff people say about
Planar shepherd and other such ridiculous classes things being the most powerful things in the game

Firstly:
Lets exclude any and all pun pun talk because no dm will alow it.
Lets exclude infinite wish's because no dm will alow it.
Let's consider stuff that WONT get you kicked out of the group or get you asked to remake your character.

Still most people if I were to ask what is most powerful character you can reasonably create will spout of druid cleric or wizard 20, EVEN if I say from level 1.

However theory craft and experiance are completely different affairs.

My favourite character (not saying the best), A dark whispergnome, spell thief wizard unseen seer arcane trickster outstrips an optimised wizard cleric or druid at every part of the game.

So why do people consider these classes the most powerful unbalanced? These classes have limited spells per day, They need to prepare spells in the morning, a perfect time to be assassinated, and they are next to useless compared to a good fighter and rogue in the early game (druid excluded).

Yes they are powerful and can break a game if a dmn doesnt know what he's doing, But THE most powerful non rules exploiting classes I just don't see it.

Thoughts?

[The Glyphstone]

1. How are you, a non-caster, having any hope of getting past the defenses they, a caster, have set up to protect themselves while they sleep and prepare spells? For that matter, you've just compared a caster+prestige classes to a caster without prestige classes, that is the definition of an optimized caster.

2. Early-game uselessness is not balance for late-game domination.

[Kurald Galain]

they are next to useless compared to a good fighter and rogue in the early game

That's a misconception.

For instance, as early as level one, a wizard can wreak havoc with the Sleep spell.

[Diarmuid]

The thing about those classes is that while they are their most vulnerable (preparing spells, sleeping if still necessary) they are completely inaccessible. And through divinations they will properly know which spells will let them completely trivialize any encounter they decide to partake in.

This last bit is the part of the argument that I've never quite bought into. I've never played in a game where there was A) enough time to spend weeks watching/studying your target, and if A was possible, where divinations would not be thwarted through one of the many ways you can thwart divinations.

Theoretically...sure. Practically...almost never.

[Greenish]

Let's consider stuff that WONT get you kicked out of the group or get you asked to remake your character.That can hardly be used as a baseline, since it'll vary group by group, and the extremes are rather far apart.

However theory craft and experiance are completely different affairs.Good thing you've come to enlighten us then, since it's not like anyone else has any real experiance. :smallamused:
My favourite character (not saying the best), A dark whispergnome, spell thief wizard unseen seer arcane trickster outstrips an optimised wizard cleric or druid at every part of the game.So an optimized wizard beats optimized wizards, clerics & druids. Sounds like the difference is in the players.

Yes they are powerful and can break a game if a dmn doesnt know what he's doing, But THE most powerful non rules exploiting classes I just don't see it.What'd you call more powerful, then?

[Comet]

The only class that I have personally seen as being overpowered in action is the druid.
That class is just so easy to make into a versatile machine of death. Merely taking the feat that allows you to cast spells while in your animal form can trample over a good number of encounters. Add to that the druid's animal companion and, well, you have a decent army just between the two of them.

Cleric comes second, in my experience. Buffs, healing, damage, they've got it all. Pretty useful people to have around.

Wizards, again in our games, haven't been much in the way of spotlight stealing. This boils down mainly to the fact that we've mainly played blaster casters or some sub-optimal stuff like divination specialists or such.

To bring all the above into perspective: we play core only, and we forget or work around the more minor details of the rules fairly regularly.
But still, I believe it's a universally accepted fact that druid and cleric are pretty damn easy to get right, as far as optimization goes.

[ZeroNumerous]

Still most people if I were to ask what is most powerful character you can reasonably create will spout of druid cleric or wizard 20, EVEN if I say from level 1.

A druid at level 1 is two characters in one: A cleric and a fighter.


My favourite character (not saying the best), A dark whispergnome, spell thief wizard unseen seer arcane trickster outstrips an optimised wizard cleric or druid at every part of the game.

I'd like to point out that four spells completely nullify all of your sneak attack dice with no way to get around them: Heart of Water, Heart of Earth, Heart of Fire and Heart of Air.

EDIT:


This last bit is the part of the argument that I've never quite bought into. I've never played in a game where there was A) enough time to spend weeks watching/studying your target, and if A was possible, where divinations would not be thwarted through one of the many ways you can thwart divinations.

The easiest way to do recon is prep two castings of Astral Projection, Plane Shift and Greater Teleport each. Project yourself, Plane Shift your projection to the Prime Material then teleport to your target. Fight 'em. If you win, threat's over. If you lose, recast Astral Projection and go back to step 1.

[The Glyphstone]

Of the three, wizards definitely have the widest 'op-range' for potential maximum and minimum power. Though they're also the best for smart players who want to be useful and effective without being obvious spotlight stealers, by building themselves as incredibly powerful buff-machines and battlefield controllers.

Clerics tend to be binary, either smash-in-face-better-than-the-fighter, or passive healbots. Can do both, but player styles tend towards one.

Druids just turn into a bear, summon more bears, and attack alongside their pet bear while shooting lightning from their eyes. In core.

[katrex]

That's a misconception.

For instance, as early as level one, a wizard can wreak havoc with the Sleep spell.

Like three times a day. What about the rest of the dungeon.

> Also in response to others. I wasn't trying to directly compare my rogue wizard with pure wizard, you can give that wizard master specialist archmage lormaster I don't care it's still fundamanetaly just a wizard.

Personaly I don't think a specific class is most powerfull, but there are most powerfull spells and calss features. Personaly I think HipS and darkstalker is probably the most powerful ability in the game. Both pvp and pvDM. Magic can always be undone by magic. A antimagic feild or dispell or high save or whatever else it happens to be is all it takes.

[AstralFire]

Where's your fighter getting more hit points from? Because clearly he should be raring to go for more after three encounters, even though it takes about two hits to put him in redline territory.

[Douglas]

Like three times a day. What about the rest of the dungeon.
So, how's that hit point total after 3 encounters, Mr. Level 1 Fighter?

[The Glyphstone]

Like three times a day. What about the rest of the dungeon.

What are the fighters doing for the rest of the dungeon? The wizard has done his part by singlehandedly one-shotting 3 encounters, 75% of the recommended daily fights for the day. Now it's time for the melee schlubs to actually get off their butts and spend their limited resources - HP.

[AstralFire]

The sad thing is that we've all been through this song and dance so many times that we all respond in perfect chorus to half the points that come up in these threads.

[Flickerdart]

The sad thing is that we've all been through this song and dance so many times that we all respond in perfect chorus to half the points that come up in these threads.
It's 3.5, the musical!

[Boci]

Personaly I think HipS and darkstalker is probably the most powerful ability in the game.

Sculpted glitter dust. -20 to your hide check. Hiding after an attack, another -20.

[katrex]

One shooting three encounters against humanoids. Sure. Against zombies? Don't think so. You shouldn't know what you are going to come up against. As a wizard are you really going to prepare all you spells as sleep and risk not being able to use it?

A good first level fighter has breastplate 16 dex towersheild dodge thats ac 23. Most things need 20's to hit him. and he's doing a trusty 1d8 + 3 damage most rounds.
Now as long as some were not fighting orc barbarians with greataxes, the bane on many a party when the dm rolls a 12 he should be fine most encounter.

The dark whispergnome does better as nothing can see him and he just shoots away for 1d8 +1d6 a round. Rapid reload as his feat so he can spend move action to hide again.

[Greenish]

Magic can always be undone by magic.Pretty much anything in 3.5 can be undone by magic. Still there are classes without magic.

It's 3.5, the musical!Brilliant, I love a good musical. :smallbiggrin:

[Boci]

One shooting three encounters against humanoids. Sure. Against zombies? Don't think so. You shouldn't know what you are going to come up against.

Actually you should. Even peasant's can broadly identify what has killed some of their friends.


A good first level fighter has breastplate 16 dex towersheild dodge thats ac 23. Most things need 20's to hit him. and he's doing a trusty 1d8 + 3 damage most rounds.

With a +2 to attack. (1 BAB, 3 Str mod, -2 tower shield).


The dark whispergnome does better as nothing can see him and he just shoots away for 1d8 +1d6 a round. Rapid reload as his feat so he can spend move action to hide again until he attacks and takes a -20 penalty to hide.

Fixed for you. Also, that character is ECL 2.

[dragonsamurai77]

One shooting three encounters against humanoids. Sure. Against zombies? Don't think so. You shouldn't know what you are going to come up against. As a wizard are you really going to prepare all you spells as sleep and risk not being able to use it?

A good first level fighter has breastplate 16 dex towersheild dodge thats ac 23. Most things need 20's to hit him. and he's doing a trusty 1d8 + 3 damage most rounds.
Now as long as some were not fighting orc barbarians with greataxes, the bane on many a party when the dm rolls a 12 he should be fine most encounter.

The dark whispergnome does better as nothing can see him and he just shoots away for 1d8 +1d6 a round. Rapid reload as his feat so he can spend move action to hide again.

Dodge? Tower Shield? Both of these are far from optimal choices. Also, how are you going to get 16 Dex without a very high point buy or very lucky rolls?

[AstralFire]

Dodge? Tower Shield? Both of these are far from optimal choices. Also, how are you going to get 16 Dex without a very high point buy or very lucky rolls?

16 Dex is doable, if you don't mind tanking all of your mental stats.

[katrex]

Sculpted gliterdust... if you know roughly where they are... please make your listen check. They are sure as hell not going to fight you in a 20 ft room. They'll wait till outside and shoot you from thirty foot away and then move somewhere else.

Besides thats at least a third level spell. making us fifth level so we are going to be doing 1d8 +3d6 damage to your 25 odd health. Two turns and you're dead. At higher levels you'd think the ONE way of spotting a hips charecter would be negated.
Personaly i'd be tempted to take one level of wizard for abrupt jaunt just to keep out of those things.

[dragonsamurai77]

16 Dex is doable, if you don't mind tanking all of your mental stats.

I guess so, it just isn't something you normally see on a Fighter.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't know where these "three spells" are coming from. Unless you have Intelligence 11, you have four first-level spells...

And that's not even getting into Focused Specialist madness.

[Boci]

Sculpted gliterdust... if you know roughly where they are... please make your listen check. They are sure as hell not going to fight you in a 20 ft room.

Sculted glitter dust covers a big area.


They'll wait till outside and shoot you from thirty foot away and then move somewhere else.

So they're no longer hiding? (can't attack, hide and move)


Besides thats at least a third level spell. making us fifth level so we are going to be doing 1d8 +3d6 damage to your 25 odd health. Two turns and you're dead.

Round one: Wizard fails to find you, you hit him for some damage.

Round 2: Wizard casts wind wall, you cry.


At higher levels you'd think the ONE way of spotting a hips charecter would be negated.

Do tell how.


Personaly i'd be tempted to take one level of wizard for abrupt jaunt just to keep out of those things.

Its very often banned/nerfed.

[Psyren]

It's 3.5, the musical!

Must... not... sig!


I guess so, it just isn't something you normally see on a Fighter.

Tanked mental stats? I thought that was the norm :smalltongue:

[dragonsamurai77]

Must... not... sig!



Tanked mental stats? I thought that was the norm :smalltongue:

No, I meant higher Dexterity than Constitution, though I guess you could have a 16 in all 3 physical stats.

[tyckspoon]

Besides thats at least a third level spell. making us fifth level so we are going to be doing 1d8 +3d6 damage to your 25 odd health. Two turns and you're dead. At higher levels you'd think the ONE way of spotting a hips charecter would be negated.
Personaly i'd be tempted to take one level of wizard for abrupt jaunt just to keep out of those things.

I'm not sure if you think this is a particular strike against the Wizard, or if it's just that you started the thread talking about Wizards and their ilk, but.. really? You get ambushed by nigh-on-invisible sneak attackers, maintaining perfect range to get their attack but not get easily spotted, and it's a flaw of the Wizard that this kills him? I don't think a flatfooted (no Dex bonus!) Fighter being struck by undetectable attackers (+2 to hit him) is going to fare much better.. it may take him a couple more turns to go down, but he's just as helpless as you think the Wizard is (well, ok, if he's your Towershield Fighter, he could claim total cover. But that's still not doing anything to actually solve the situation.) Effects like Glitterdust are just about the only things that will turn a situation like that from near certain TPK to dangerous but manageable.

[katrex]

Dodge? Tower Shield? Both of these are far from optimal choices. Also, how are you going to get 16 Dex without a very high point buy or very lucky rolls?

Well first of all its first level, you build a charecter to survive first level. As you level up clearly you change your style. Dodge is needed for a bunch of feats anyway. My favourite beeing elusive target. Needed for any antispellcaster fighter to be able to fight against optimised powerattackers.

Well 32 point buy lets you go 16 16 14 10 10 10
make em human for extra skillpoints and a feat. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[Coidzor]

Wait, wait, wait. A level 1 fighter can afford a breastplate? :smallconfused:

The dark whispergnome does better as nothing can see him and he just shoots away for 1d8 +1d6 a round. Rapid reload as his feat so he can spend move action to hide again.

Why are you comparing a level 2 character to a level 1 character anyway?

...Did somebody say Musical (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9730138&postcount=35)?! :smallbiggrin:

[Gorgondantess]

One shooting three encounters against humanoids. Sure. Against zombies? Don't think so. You shouldn't know what you are going to come up against. As a wizard are you really going to prepare all you spells as sleep and risk not being able to use it?

All sleep? Naw. You prepare one sleep, one grease, and one silent image. That way you're ready for anything. Name an encounter and I can pretty much nullify it with one of those. Mix and match with color spray, ray of enfeeblement & cause fear. And that's just the core level 1 save or loses/battlefield control.
.

A good first level fighter has breastplate 16 dex towersheild dodge thats ac 23. Most things need 20's to hit him. and he's doing a trusty 1d8 + 3 damage most rounds.
...You're kidding, right? A good 1st level fighter doesn't waste his stats on dex, doesn't waste his feats on dodge, and doesn't waste his attack rolls on a flippin' tower shield. A good 1st level fighter has combat reflexes, stand still and EWP: spiked chain so nothing can get near him.:smallamused:
'Course, then he fails at ranged, but your above example can still be one-shotted by any of the above wizard spells, easy as cake.

Also, your dark whispergnome can be spotted by mindsight after 1 feat and a level 1 dip that doesn't take down spellcasting progression, all at level 6. Also, the dark template is a whole level, so you need to be at least level 2 to do that. And what if it's not in shadowy illumination?

[katrex]

I'm not sure if you think this is a particular strike against the Wizard, or if it's just that you started the thread talking about Wizards and their ilk, but.. really? You get ambushed by nigh-on-invisible sneak attackers, maintaining perfect range to get their attack but not get easily spotted, and it's a flaw of the Wizard that this kills him? I don't think a flatfooted (no Dex bonus!) Fighter being struck by undetectable attackers (+2 to hit him) is going to fare much better.. it may take him a couple more turns to go down, but he's just as helpless as you think the Wizard is (well, ok, if he's your Towershield Fighter, he could claim total cover. But that's still not doing anything to actually solve the situation.) Effects like Glitterdust are just about the only things that will turn a situation like that from near certain TPK to dangerous but manageable.

I completely agree sorry if its confusing i'm kinda having two or three aguements at once.

The first one is that wizards are weak early game. Look at fighter.

Second point is Hips is probably most powerful ability in game.

Wizard is damn good but so often on these forums when someone asks what shoudl i play that's powerful people just say Wizard and leave it at that.

Fighters rogues wizards and clerics can ALL be good if you know how to build them. And against each other (untill about 16th level) And even after than can be very balanced in combat. You just have to know your enemy. Mage slayer spiked chain fighters, Hips assasins, Druids Are pretty much ALWAYS good. Wizards and clerics a little more situational, they have to know what's coming what spell to prepare. And as a dm, my BBEG have their fortress mages private sanctumed and dimensionaly locked.

[true_shinken]

Wizards and clerics a little more situational, they have to know what's coming what spell to prepare. And as a dm, my BBEG have their fortress mages private sanctumed and dimensionaly locked.
1) They need to know what's coming. They get spells to do just that - prevent what's coming.
2) They have more action economy breakage than anything else. Action economy breaking (and not HiPS) is the most powerful ability in D&D, ever.
3) Why can't a player do the same as your BBEG? Genesis, astral projection, plane shift, celerity... do I really have to go on?
Really, it's not like every other D&D player in the forums hasn't noted that the other classes can be optimized. The fact stands that even then, the tier 1 classes are game breakingly powerful when optimized. Optimized fighter? Deals a lot of damage. Optimized wizard? Does whatever the heck he wants.

[katrex]

All sleep? Naw. You prepare one sleep, one grease, and one silent image. That way you're ready for anything. Name an encounter and I can pretty much nullify it with one of those. Mix and match with color spray, ray of enfeeblement & cause fear. And that's just the core level 1 save or loses/battlefield control.
.

...You're kidding, right? A good 1st level fighter doesn't waste his stats on dex, doesn't waste his feats on dodge, and doesn't waste his attack rolls on a flippin' tower shield. A good 1st level fighter has combat reflexes, stand still and EWP: spiked chain so nothing can get near him.:smallamused:
'Course, then he fails at ranged, but your above example can still be one-shotted by any of the above wizard spells, easy as cake.

Also, your dark whispergnome can be spotted by mindsight after 1 feat and a level 1 dip that doesn't take down spellcasting progression, all at level 6. Also, the dark template is a whole level, so you need to be at least level 2 to do that. And what if it's not in shadowy illumination?

I agree with your spell list very usefull. Not garenteed to all be needed though. Yes I know poor example of a fighter, but was maxing ac. And I realy like elusive target. Still yes spiked chain build is best, still I allow retraining.

Mindsight is cool thanks for showing it to me. Still as it works (like blindsense) i'd rule darkstalker works against it. Minus ten on the hide check will help, but i doubt they'd have many ranks in spot if they took that feat. So trying to beat a level 6 Hipser. Hide of +25 no feats. So thats a hide of +15 when darkstalker is needed.
Bit'o'math
5/20*1/20 + 4/20*2/20 +3/20*3/20 + 5/20*1/20 + 4/20*2/20 = 35/400
Thats a 10% chance you can see him.

And hide in plain sight as to the shadow dancer ability says you have to be within 10 feet of a shadow. You cant hide in your own shadow. Implying you can hide in someone elses shadow. Someones shadow does not cause shadowy ilumination. Implies he does not need shadowy ilumination, mearly a shadow.

[Boci]

Mindsight is cool thanks for showing it to me. Still as it works (like blindsense) i'd rule darkstalker works against it. Minus ten on the hide check will help, but i doubt they'd have many ranks in spot if they took that feat. So trying to beat a level 6 Hipser. Hide of +25 no feats. So thats a hide of +15 when darkstalker is needed.
Bit'o'math
5/20*1/20 + 4/20*2/20 +3/20*3/20 + 5/20*1/20 + 4/20*2/20 = 35/400
Thats a 10% chance you can see him.

-20 for hiding after attacking, and another -20 if the wizard catches you with glitterdust.

[Flickerdart]

I agree with your spell list very usefull. Not garenteed to all be needed though. Yes I know poor example of a fighter, but was maxing ac. And I realy like elusive target. Still yes spiked chain build is best, still I allow retraining.

Mindsight is cool thanks for showing it to me. Still as it works (like blindsense) i'd rule darkstalker works against it. Minus ten on the hide check will help, but i doubt they'd have many ranks in spot if they took that feat. So trying to beat a level 6 Hipser. Hide of +25 no feats. So thats a hide of +15 when darkstalker is needed.
Bit'o'math
5/20*1/20 + 4/20*2/20 +3/20*3/20 + 5/20*1/20 + 4/20*2/20 = 35/400
Thats a 10% chance you can see him.

And hide in plain sight as to the shadow dancer ability says you have to be within 10 feet of a shadow. You cant hide in your own shadow. Implying you can hide in someone elses shadow. Someones shadow does not cause shadowy ilumination. Implies he does not need shadowy ilumination, mearly a shadow.
But see, it doesn't matter what "you'd rule". RAW, mindsight penetrates Darkstalker, then the hider eats a glitterdust and won't be hiding from anyone at all.
Also, Shadowdancer HiPS and Dark HiPS are different abilities. You can't mix and match from different source like that.

[katrex]

1) They need to know what's coming. They get spells to do just that - prevent what's coming.
2) They have more action economy breakage than anything else. Action economy breaking (and not HiPS) is the most powerful ability in D&D, ever.
3) Why can't a player do the same as your BBEG? Genesis, astral projection, plane shift, celerity... do I really have to go on?
Really, it's not like every other D&D player in the forums hasn't noted that the other classes can be optimized. The fact stands that even then, the tier 1 classes are game breakingly powerful when optimized. Optimized fighter? Deals a lot of damage. Optimized wizard? Does whatever the heck he wants.

Pretty much everything you're talking about are ninth level spells. Dnd breaks with ninth level spells. Hence why i said up to 16th level.

1 Any half decent npc knows what's possible in d&D and accounts for it.

Action economy isnt broken till you start doing stuff like celerity time stop Avoid thing that would kill you and then set up deathtrap. Oh wait theres another 9th level spell.

3 it's the player who has to kill the bbeg not the other way round. Normaly you waltz in to his base. mages private sanctum forbidance stops all that crazy divination crap. And yes we aint using ninth level spells so forget your genesis astral projections please.

so the first 16 levels of the game are balanced. Wizards can't do whatever the hell they want. Well not if you make a sensible campaign setting. Sure if you think in an abstract white space you can come up with hundreds of possible ways for the wizard to do anything Come practice. It's not as good as people think.

If you are on an adventure and things are happening, you don't have time to prepare for everything. You don't know about the evil guy till you need to kill him. If you wait, his plans for world domination will happen. Meanwhile he's had decades to prepare. You think he doesnt know about you. he's probably got a shadowdancer reporting your every move as soon as you enter his domain, If you go to sleep to prepare divinations spells guess what. you're going to be attacked in the middle of the night. He has teleport spells too you know. And you don't have spell prepared. Suddenly the other charecters are just as good as you are.
How man spells per day are you going to use so that you can get a good nights sleep.

Anyway, I realise its not a perfect arguement but there is a big difference between Whitespace theorycraft world and an actual campaign.

[Flickerdart]

Rope Trick, katrex. Rope trick.

[Boci]

1 Any half decent npc knows what's possible in d&D and accounts for it.

How?


Action economy isnt broken till you start doing stuff like celerity time stop Avoid thing that would kill you and then set up deathtrap.

Quicken spell? Twin spell? Spells with a swift/move action casting time? Contingency?


so the first 16 levels of the game are balanced.

No it isn't. Melee cannot hope to match what the wizard is doing, and neither can your dark gnome.



If you are on an adventure and things are happening, you don't have time to prepare for everything. You don't know about the evil guy till you need to kill him. If you wait, his plans for world domination will happen. Meanwhile he's had decades to prepare. You think he doesnt know about you. he's probably got a shadowdancer reporting your every move as soon as you enter his domain, If you go to sleep to prepare divinations spells guess what. you're going to be attacked in the middle of the night. He has teleport spells too you know. And you don't have spell prepared. Suddenly the other charecters are just as good as you are.
How man spells per day are you going to use so that you can get a good nights sleep.

Given that it contradicts itself, this "Wizards aren't overpowered because the BBEG is a wizard" is surpisingly persistent.

[snoopy13a]

The benefits of sleep are somewhat mitigated due to it being a 1 round casting spell.

A level 1 wizard is better than a level 1 fighter but a level 1 fighter can be very useful. One can build a level 1 human fighter armed with a guisarme* and with the combat expertise, improved trip and combat reflexes feat that is very effective.

Anyway, optimization is a zero-sum game due to the Red Queen hypothesis. Better player characters mean tougher badguys. In the end, no matter how optimized your characters are, the DM will try to create a game that is appropriate to the level of difficulty that the players want.

*I never understood using an feat on spiked chain proficiency at level 1. In most cases, a character can simply take a 5' step backwards if a badguy is in an adjacent square which would allow the character to use their guisarme. Furthermore, even if a level 1 character cannot or should not take a 5' step backwards, they can always drop their guisarme as a free action, draw a heavy flail as a move action and then attack the adjacent bad guy. Obviously, this would prevent a full attack but that isn't relevant unless the character is of a higher level or is fighting with two weapons/double weapon.

[Flickerdart]

Anyway, optimization is a zero-sum game due to the Red Queen hypothesis. Better player characters mean tougher badguys. In the end, no matter how optimized your characters are, the DM will try to create a game that is appropriate to the level of difficulty that the players want.
Optimization is only zero-sum when the level of optimization in the party is equal. When it isn't, everything breaks down because either one or more players find encounters trivial, or one or more players can't contribute (possibly both, with high enough tier discrepancy).

[Boci]

The benefits of sleep are somewhat mitigated due to it being a 1 round casting spell.

Plus enchantment is usually banned by specialist. I prefer colour spray.


*I never understood using an feat on spiked chain proficiency at level 1.

A human fighter, or one with flaws, could also grab combat ex. and improved trip.

[Amphetryon]

Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm), the Summon Monster line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterII.htm), and the Druid's Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) kindly disagree with your assessment of the early-game action economy.

[katrex]

But see, it doesn't matter what "you'd rule". RAW, mindsight penetrates Darkstalker, then the hider eats a glitterdust and won't be hiding from anyone at all.
Also, Shadowdancer HiPS and Dark HiPS are different abilities. You can't mix and match from different source like that.

Hmm maybe i'm wrong about the Darkness hips. I could check it again Kinda irrelevant Take shadow dancer instead then

As to RAW... Bucket healing. End of story.

Regardless of that.
"You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid."

The fact it listed EVERY known way to see someone (from the core rules). Then something comes out in a later publication. "Oh but it doesnt explicitely say it stops this" OF COURSE IT DOESN'T THAT DIDN'T EXIST.

But clearly its intended to stop extra senses from AUTOMATICALY seeing you (which is prety harsh for someone who spent a lot of effort getting HIPS.)
Further it gives a penalty to your hide, meaning it doesnt make those senses useless against you.
And you think after all of that. They made mindsight and went yep completely stops rogues even ones who take a feat to stop this kinda thing. That's fair.

[katrex]

Rope Trick, katrex. Rope trick.

Dispell flickerdart dispell.

[Boci]

Dispell flickerdart dispell.

Doesn't work without transdimentional spell. (The rope is what needs to be dispelled.




As to RAW... Bucket healing. End of story.

Thats...not a valid comparison.


Regardless of that.
"You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid."

The fact it listed EVERY known way to see someone (from the core rules). Then something comes out in a later publication. "Oh but it doesnt explicitely say it stops this" OF COURSE IT DOESN'T THAT DIDN'T EXIST.

But that doesn't change the fact that mindsight is not stopped by it. You can argue that WotC just forgot to mention that in mindsight, but it was never errated, so by RAW, darkstalker does nothing against it.

[katrex]

-20 for hiding after attacking, and another -20 if the wizard catches you with glitterdust.
Hence Standard action attack and then a move action to make a hide check after. I'm not sugesting sniping.

[true_shinken]

Pretty much everything you're talking about are ninth level spells. Dnd breaks with ninth level spells. Hence why i said up to 16th level.
The Planar Binding/Planar Ally line of spells goes online a lot earlier and allows you to get all that via critters.
Also: Polymorph and Celerity, level 4 spells, better than anything a level 7 oncaster can do.

[snoopy13a]

A human fighter, or one with flaws, could also grab combat ex. and improved trip.

Of course. But I think other feats are more valuable until level 6 where full-attack actually results in a second attack. Until then, I think that the guisarme/heavy flail combo is nearly as effective and allows for a different feat to be chosen sooner.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dispell flickerdart dispell.

You can't dispel Rope Trick. Unless you get there before everyone's climbed inside or climbing out, but that's pointless.

[Boci]

Hence Standard action attack and then a move action to make a hide check after. I'm not sugesting sniping.

And how many DMs can you convince that melee attacking and then walking away should give you a less of a hiding penalty than sniping?


Of course. But I think other feats are more valuable until level 6 where full-attack actually results in a second attack. Until then, I think that the guisarme/heavy flail combo is nearly as effective and allows for a different feat to be chosen sooner.

Yeah, but what different feats? Its hard to match the power of tripping at lower levels.

[true_shinken]

As to RAW... Bucket healing. End of story.

So you actually mean the whole playgroud is wrong because of your houserules? Really?

[Flickerdart]

Hmm maybe i'm wrong about the Darkness hips. I could check it again Kinda irrelevant Take shadow dancer instead then

As to RAW... Bucket healing. End of story.

It's not an exploit, it's stated with no wiggle room what Darkstalker can and cannot do.



Regardless of that.
"You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid."

The fact it listed EVERY known way to see someone (from the core rules). Then something comes out in a later publication. "Oh but it doesnt explicitely say it stops this" OF COURSE IT DOESN'T THAT DIDN'T EXIST.

The first part is fluff and doesn't matter. The second...Darkstalker and Mindsight are introduced in the same book. Please to be doing the research before making the ridiculous claims.



But clearly its intended to stop extra senses from AUTOMATICALY seeing you (which is prety harsh for someone who spent a lot of effort getting HIPS.)
Further it gives a penalty to your hide, meaning it doesnt make those senses useless against you.
And you think after all of that. They made mindsight and went yep completely stops rogues even ones who take a feat to stop this kinda thing. That's fair.
Darkstalker doesn't mention a Hide penalty. I'm starting to wonder whether you have read any of the material in question.



Dispell flickerdart dispell.
a) They need to find your general location
b) They need to find the hole sensor (who says you didn't cast it more than once?) using some means of detecting invisibility
c) They need to cast it on the rope using transdimensional spell
d) They need to beat your caster level using a capped spell
e) They need to deal with you and your party because they've tripped your Alarm spell

Besides, the only people that can find and dispel the thing? Other casters. Which just shows that casters are more powerful than non-casters, something which you're arguing against.

So many ifs to defeat a simple Rope Trick.

[true_shinken]

And how many DMs can you convince that melee attacking and then walking away should give you a less of a hiding penalty than sniping?

Actually, Boci, I believe he has HiPS, correct? Then he does not need to use sniping.

[Boci]

Actually, Boci, I believe he has HiPS, correct? Then he does not need to use sniping.

Hide in plain sight still doesn't get around the -20 to hide checks after attacking though. He's trying to get around that by attacking in melee then moving away.

[JonRG]

A good first level fighter has breastplate 16 dex towersheild dodge thats ac 23. Most things need 20's to hit him. and he's doing a trusty 1d8 + 3 damage most rounds.

That's 230g worth of gear. Fighter gets 150 and even then, he's basically praying no one attacks from range.


Magic can always be undone by magic.

Indeed.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/sarcausticmaster/Uncle.png

[Lhurgyof]

2. Early-game uselessness is not balance for late-game domination.

Actually, if the wizards die in piles at levels 1-5, then there is no chance for late-game domination.

[Boci]

That's 230g worth of gear.

Actually 245gp (you forgot the price of a longsword). Ha csak nem lopta.


he's basically praying no one attacks from range.

Sling and rocks be okayish for that.


Actually, if the wizards die in piles at levels 1-5, then there is no chance for late-game domination.

You're joking, right? 1. If the starting level is 7, it really doesn't matter. 2. If the starting level is 1 and the wizard runs out of spells, they don't die, they just cannot contribute (which increases their chance of surviving since monsters do not focus on them)

[true_shinken]

Hide in plain sight still doesn't get around the -20 to hide checks after attacking though. He's trying to get around that by attacking in melee then moving away.

That's not what sniping is. Attacking does not give you a penalty on hiding. Sniping is there for situations when you don't have hide in plain sight, you are hidden, you pop out, attack, and suddenly hide again. Just like actual sniping.

[katrex]

Well we were considering the trying to get a good night sleep when fighting a hardcore campaign at high levels. That shadowdancer i mentioned trailing with you either informs bbeg when you all are and they set up an ambush, preferably in the midle of the night after hireing someone who does have extradimensional spell.

Anyway we're getting seriously distracted.
I guess the only thing i could say is this. Try to create a world that would actualy work, try to consider how bbeg would deal with high level adventurers. He would have people tail them he would ambush them while they slept etc he would hire other adventurers to kill them.
What would not happen is: you walk in to a tavern ask about him. Go inside your extradimensional space. Find out everthing there is to know with divination. Wait another day, prepare the perfect way to beat him. Waltz in and kick his ass. Because while you slept someone dispelled your demensional space. You're surrounded without spells.

They way to beat him would be you hear a rumour from far off and after a short breif amount of research you race to catch him off guard before he even know's you're there. You prepare generic spells that should help and rely on the rogue to scout the place and the fighter to deal with the stuff you cant and the cleric to keep you alive. and you have a heck of a time coming up against interesting challenges and everyone is about as useful as everyone else.
THATS WHAT DND IS ABOUT.
Wizards in a sensible campaign setting do not break it.



Also as to why you can't planar bind Djin. It's probably already been done and they are ruled by some level crazy wizard and he's used the wish spells so that if one gets planar bound by anyone other than him it automatically fails.

[Boci]

That's not what sniping is. Attacking does not give you a penalty on hiding. Sniping is there for situations when you don't have hide in plain sight, you are hidden, you pop out, attack, and suddenly hide again. Just like actual sniping.

That not RAW. The rules say if you attack, you take a -20 to hide. That makes sense to me. Even if you have HiPS, just standing next to someone should make hiding easier than stabbing them in the knees and walking away.

[Flickerdart]

Uhm. Why is your BBEG omniscient? Does he hire shadowdancers to trail every single person in the world? Does he hire shadowdancers to trail the other shadowdancers? Is everyone in your absurd campaign setting shadowdancers that trail one another?

D&D can be played in ways other than ones you think are the one and only true way.

[true_shinken]

That not RAW. The rules say if you attack, you take a -20 to hide. That makes sense to me. Even if you have HiPS, just standing next to someone should make hiding easier than stabbing them in the knees and walking away.
No. The rule says:

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Which is exactly what I said. You can even hide between strikes of a melee full-attack by RAW if you have hide in plain sight, really.

[JonRG]

Actually 245gp (you forgot the price of a longsword). Ha csak nem lopta.

Apparently, GoogleTranslate is much better than freetranslation.com at Hungarian. The latter thought you were talking about a guy named Oliver. :smalltongue:

[Boci]

No. The rule says:

Okay, my mistake.


exactly what I said. You can even hide between strikes of a melee full-attack by RAW if you have hide in plain sight, really.

Which brings me back to my origional point: Now find a DM who think that melee attacks should carry less of a penalty to hide checks than ranged attacks.


Apparently, GoogleTranslate is much better than freetranslation.com at Hungarian. The latter thought you were talking about a guy named Oliver. :smalltongue:

That it pretty amusing. Out of curiosity, how did you know it was Hungarian?

[Tvtyrant]

It's 3.5, the musical!

Can I put this in my sig?

[Flickerdart]

Can I put this in my sig?
Go right ahead. I'll even make an effort to respond to the OP in rhyme, just for you.

[true_shinken]

Which brings me back to my origional point: Now find a DM who think that melee attacks should carry less of a penalty to hide checks than ranged attacks.
But melee attacks don't carry less of a penalty than ranged attacks. With hide in plain sight, you don't need to use sniping. Like, ever.
And each 10ft of distance? -1 to Spot checks. So the farther away, the easier to Hide.

[JonRG]

That it pretty amusing. Out of curiosity, how did you know it was Hungarian?

While freetranslation is terrible at phrase translation, their site auto-detects language so I could go back to Google and get decent results.

[Coidzor]

Uhm. Why is your BBEG omniscient? Does he hire shadowdancers to trail every single person in the world? Does he hire shadowdancers to trail the other shadowdancers? Is everyone in your absurd campaign setting shadowdancers that trail one another?

...I smell sit com~! :smallbiggrin:

[Boci]

But melee attacks don't carry less of a penalty than ranged attacks. With hide in plain sight, you don't need to use sniping. Like, ever.
And each 10ft of distance? -1 to Spot checks. So the farther away, the easier to Hide.

I know, katrex was, as far as I could tell, trying to avoid the -20 to hide checks after an attack by using melee attacks (since the rules do not mention them causing a -20 penalty), which is what I objected to.

[TKB]

I believe one of the ideas important to this debate hasn't been brought up yet and needs to be stated. One of the defining factors that makes a lot of magic OP is the fact of how variable and creative one can get with it. Silent Image alone is literally limited only by the casters own creativity and how to apply it to the situation at hand. A sword or crossbow tends to be limited to one use (a few if you can get VERY creative) and while it is indeed effective in combat, its lack of versatility can lead to situations where it and all of the feats/abilities/whatever based around it become useless. To pull an example from OotS, V used his/her valuable Disintegrate on the mounted undead's horse so he wouldn't be able to use his Mounted feats he was using to tear apart the Sapphire City soldiers. He died relatively easy after that. For the example at hand, Wind Wall and Fly for example almost reliable destroys all effectiveness of most weapons (and the sneak attacks/ power attacks behind them). After that Magic becomes the most viable option for fighting said caster and since this argument is about how magic tends to beat most everything else...

There is also so much more you can do with it! You have a good argument that a Wizard wont be able to prepare perfectly for EVERY situation that is thrown at them, but with a good knowledge of the different spells in the game, even just the ones in Core, a decent Wizard can be generally prepared for about 95% of what is thrown at them by the DM. It wont be the perfect list for all the situations, but the list will still be able to DEAL with the situations, unlike if a bunch of fliers attack the melee speced fighter that forgot to bring his MW crossbow, or the Rogue staring down the dungson hallway that's filled with skeletons and zombies. The Wizard (if done right) would be able to range from at least useful to utterly DOMINANT in those situations.

That (at least in part) is were the break in power comes from. There are a ton of crap spells in the game that are either too specific or just utterly terrible to be of any consideration, but there are also a lot of spells that are either very versatile, very useful, or just plain damn GOOD, and it is those spells, at any character level, that make it so that the only RELIABLE counter to Magic is Magic. Yes there are other specific builds that can counter Magic effectively and reliably, but the problem is that you would be hard pressed to find a build that does that AND is able to remain useful in dealing with situations that don't require that specialty.

[true_shinken]

I know, katrex was, as far as I could tell, trying to avoid the -20 to hide checks after an attack by using melee attacks (since the rules do not mention them causing a -20 penalty), which is what I objected to.

Oh, then I'm sorry. ^^ You are correct.

[Flickerdart]

...I smell sit com~! :smallbiggrin:
He was just an ordinary spy, working for the Evil Lord to root out his enemies. She was an assassin sent to sniff out and remove any threats to the regime. But little did they know, the trail they were both following...
Led straight to the other's heart.

[Fhaolan]

He was just an ordinary spy, working for the Evil Lord to root out his enemies. She was an assassin sent to sniff out and remove any threats to the regime. But little did they know, the trail they were both following...
Led straight to the other's heart.

You win one Internets. I loled.

[Boci]

He was just an ordinary spy, working for the Evil Lord to root out his enemies. She was an assassin sent to sniff out and remove any threats to the regime. But little did they know, the trail they were both following...
Led straight to the other's heart.

I was thinking more along the lines of the poor shadowcaster compaining about being overworked since she has to trail every adventuring group thjat enters the BBEG's kingdom.

[Chambers]

Guys, settle down. The most powerful character is obviously a halfling with a pebble.

[Tvtyrant]

It's interesting how quickly this forum has ingrained me with its belief system. The first thread I ever posted in I was all for DM Fiat=balance (which the OP has fallen back on) and that the game wasn't broken. Now I see other people argue those points and I sigh.

Anyways, the issue with your anti-optimization argument is that all of your points rely on casters to work. Your build; a caster. Your BBEG; a caster. Your Dispel Magic against Rope Trick; needs a caster (or a magic item). I have a build in my Ooze thread that was a reasonable attempt at making a none-caster with caster like versatility. Its good, but it still relies magic-like powers that imitate existing spells. Excepting Uberchargers all classes need magic weapons/items, and even Uberchargers use magic items, they just don't need them as much. And an ubercharger does one thing, it charges. A wizard can summon a mount, cast Master's Touch on himself, cast some all day buffs, and then cast Transformation and smite creatures. And then he plane shifts to the plane of Jacuzzis, kicks it with Jacuzzi Elementals, and then casts Mage's Magnificent Mansion to impress the ladies.

[lesser_minion]

No. The rule says.

Actually, the rule says:


It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

While I can't find it in the SRD, I'm pretty sure practically impossible tasks require at least ten ranks in the appropriate skill as well.

[true_shinken]

While I can't find it in the SRD, I'm pretty sure practically impossible tasks require at least ten ranks in the appropriate skill as well.

Oh, I stand corrected then.
The thing about ten ranks I never heard about, though. I think you are mistaken.

[lesser_minion]

Oh, I stand corrected then.
The thing about ten ranks I never heard about, though. I think you are mistaken.

Hmm... just checked the PHB, and it looks like it was changed in the update.

[true_shinken]

Hmm... just checked the PHB, and it looks like it was changed in the update.

I don't even remember that in 3.0

[Flickerdart]

Some skills provide benefits at 5 ranks (like being able to balance without being flat-footed), perhaps you were thinking of that?

[tyckspoon]

Actually, the rule says:



While I can't find it in the SRD, I'm pretty sure practically impossible tasks require at least ten ranks in the appropriate skill as well.

There is no hard rule about it that I'm aware of. There is the rather practical restriction that if you don't have enough ranks you likely also don't have enough of a skill check to consider taking on a 'practically impossible' task, but there's no rule that prevents you from rolling the skill check to see how close you get anyway.

[Lans]

a) They need to find your general location
b) They need to find the hole sensor (who says you didn't cast it more than once?) using some means of detecting invisibility
c) They need to cast it on the rope using transdimensional spell
d) They need to beat your caster level using a capped spell
e) They need to deal with you and your party because they've tripped your Alarm spell



So many ifs to defeat a simple Rope Trick.

Tossing alchemist fire into it is much easier.

Edit-Though that can be countered with a tower shield, which is countered by sunder, which is countered by being 30' in the air which is countered by levitate or a thousand man hours to build a pyramid.

[Flickerdart]

Tossing alchemist fire into it is much easier.
Ok, so now you're down an item and instead of flushing out your opponents, you've merely dealt them negligible damage. Congrats, I guess, if you were going for "minor inconvenience" then you've almost certainly succeeded.

[Lans]

Ok, so now you're down an item and instead of flushing out your opponents, you've merely dealt them negligible damage. Congrats, I guess, if you were going for "minor inconvenience" then you've almost certainly succeeded.

Wizards need 8 hours of uninterrupted rest to recover spells. Being on fire tends to interrupt resting. Plus, you could always throw more in.

[Boci]

Wizards need 8 hours of uninterrupted rest to recover spells. Being on fire tends to interrupt resting.

That justs adds 1 hour to the amount of rest needed. Also, with Hevard's Fortifying Bedroll you only need 1.


Plus, you could always throw more in.

By which time you can be sure you are not hitting the wizard because the melee characters standing between them and the entrance.

[Flickerdart]

Wizards need 8 hours of uninterrupted rest to recover spells. Being on fire tends to interrupt resting. Plus, you could always throw more in.
If the wizard went to sleep with a protection from fire on, then no, it doesn't.
You only get the one action at best before the grumpy wizard gets out and fries you, and that's if, as mentioned, you didn't trip his Alarm spell coming in. Except this time, after you've been brutally slain, he can just get back into his Rope Trick instead of having to cast a new one.

Not to mention that you still have to go through all the steps to locate the Rope Trick, and nothing in the spell description suggests that items can cross the interface unless carried by someone going up the rope, so it's an incredibly shady proposition that won't get very much accomplished anyway.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm a Barbarian! Rawwwr! (just noticed I got an upgrade!)

Actually you could throw some tanglefoot bags in there and it would disrupt them. Just keep throwing them up every hour or so until they come out. As for finding it.... Trained dogs could find it by scent (they left a trail to it) and then you shot gun throw the bags up where the trail ends. Your assuming they didn't just teleport of course, and it would be much easier to have a Wizard find it, but YMMV.

[Boci]

As for finding it.... Trained dogs could find it by scent (they left a trail to it)

Wand of that 1st level druid spell that hides scent.

[Tvtyrant]

Wand of that 1st level druid spell that hides scent.

And someone to UMD it :P Honestly how often have you cast that spell just to go to bed?

[Boci]

And someone to UMD it :P

Yep, skill monkey, artificer or a druid.


Honestly how often have you cast that spell just to go to bed?

Often. Your character needs to work on their paranoia.

[Tvtyrant]

Your probably right, I am not nearly paranoid enough.

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that magic beats mundane, as my first post in this thread stated. Though I did not know there was a scent erasing spell. There is pass without trace, but it has a 1 hour per level duration, so a wand would only allow you to walk without scent for an hour.

[Boci]

There is pass without trace, but it has a 1 hour per level duration, so a wand would only allow you to walk without scent for an hour.

Thats the spell. Just recast it if 1 hour isn't enough, but even then it makes finding you difficult.

[Tvtyrant]

Thats the spell. Just recast it if 1 hour isn't enough, but even then it makes finding you difficult.

That's true; it would be hard to pick up the trail an hour away from where it disappeared.

[Signmaker]

To be honest, I'm losing the OP's train of thought through these pages. Could you perhaps restate, which modifications to whatever's been brought up?

Honestly, it sounds like your points are as follows:

1. HIPS/Darkstalker Rogue can A. tail Wizard and B. kill it.
2. If 1a is true and 1b is not, tailing is sufficient.
3. BBEGs will automatically have counters to every suggestion brought up by posters thus far that have made it past your hypothetical HIPS/Darkstalker creature. Your reasoning for this appears similar to the Jakeverse, in which all (important) inhabitants of a world are inherently familiar with all of its contents to the degree required to 'game the system'.
4. Somewhere, this means that casters aren't good at low levels.

A few notes:
Mindsight>Darkstalker. This is true in RAW and can be assumed out of RAW due it being in the same publication and no official errata to state otherwise. In addition, there are actually quite a few ways to stop Darkstalker at somewhat low levels, though I will readily admit that they are obscure. Touchsight (Psionic Power), Mindsight (through Telepathy collection), and Treasure Scent (small range, yet hilarious to stock as a scroll) all work wholly and totally versus a 'stock' Darkstalker. In fact, I am under the current running assumption that in order to completely 'hide' from a caster optimised towards sight modes (such as in standard mid-high arena PVP), you're required to be Incorporeal, Mindless, in no possession of CP, SP, GP, PP, or gems of any kind, blanketed down by Nystul's Magic Aura to prevent aura detection, and protected by divinations that are too pesky to be stopped by the prior methods.

As to low-level Wizards, enough people have run the Core assumption and given you a suite of spells to provide sufficient amount of 'effort' for each spell cycle. A low-level Wizard is in a party under the assumptions that they are able to cooperate in a team. Teamwork tends to fill holes like "Hey, I actually don't have a hard counter to this one particular encounter. Let's have some fun with a crossbow." In addition, PvP at low levels is horribly slanted towards certain playstyles, and The Arena will likely highlight which ones have the best odds of winning, as IIRC they specialize in low-level PvP.

[GreatWyrmGold]

and they are next to useless compared to a good fighter and rogue in the early game (druid excluded).
In my experience, druids are nothing compared to a good fighter/barbarian in the early game. Then they pick up bigger spells and get more and more power.


A druid at level 1 is two characters in one: A cleric and a fighter.
Yeah, but it lacks:
1.) A cleric's domains
2.) Turning/rebuking
3.) FIGHTING ABILITY BETTER THAN A ROGUE
Seriously. How can a first-level druid with limited weapons, light or hide armor, no BAB, and no bonus feat be as good a fighter as a fighter? Flanking only gives you so much, and early animal companions tend to be fragile. (Plus, fighters have their own flankers-ROGUES.)


I'd like to point out that four spells completely nullify all of your sneak attack dice with no way to get around them: Heart of Water, Heart of Earth, Heart of Fire and Heart of Air.
Well, lookit that! Noncore makes characters with spells unbalanced compared to characters without! Wait-I know! It's because sourcebooks give more spells and stuff than exclusively non-spellcaster stuff! Whoda thunkit?


The sad thing is that we've all been through this song and dance so many times that we all respond in perfect chorus to half the points that come up in these threads.
Until some idiot ad-libs...


Sculpted glitter dust. -20 to your hide check. Hiding after an attack, another -20.
1: Requires you to notice him first. 2: One attack can be enough.


Actually you should. Even peasant's can broadly identify what has killed some of their friends.
Assuming they didn't die in an abandoned dungeon...


Fixed for you. Also, that character is ECL 2.
Er...If he is smart, he'll use his time hidden to get to a sheltered location or unless he has a huge Hide bonus. Also: ECL 2? Compare hi to a 2ndlevel whatever.


Anyway, I realise its not a perfect arguement but there is a big difference between Whitespace theorycraft world and an actual campaign.
BIG thing. "Gee, I can beat up an encounter with SOD spell #346!" But it's your highest level spell so you can only use it a few times per day, and while it works GREAT against humanoids, dragons/nonliving opponents/mindless creatures/nonsentients/creatures who MAKE THEIR SAVE will be unaffected, and hen if you face a few orcs you still have a couple...You probably get the point.


No it isn't. Melee cannot hope to match what the wizard is doing, and neither can your dark gnome.
Oh, really? Despite how a fighter never runs out of swings and can deal as much damage as a midlevel spell at midlevels if he's reasonably specialized, and the whisper gnome can potentially hide despite the massive Attack-Then-Hide penalty and attack from 60 ft or so away?


Given that it contradicts itself, this "Wizards aren't overpowered because the BBEG is a wizard" is surpisingly persistent.
Yes, it is.


Optimization is only zero-sum when the level of optimization in the party is equal. When it isn't, everything breaks down because either one or more players find encounters trivial, or one or more players can't contribute (possibly both, with high enough tier discrepancy).
VERY IMPORTANT. A druid/wizard/cleric might be easily overpowered by diving it away from its traditional role, but a fighter can be optimized if you actually try.


D&D can be played in ways other than ones you think are the one and only true way.
Same to you, if you let clerics and wizards camp out in extradimensional spaces and safely divine the most effective method of killing him while the fighters and rogues read entire novels before they actually get to watch the climatic battle being won in two rounds by the overoptimised asters before they reach the baddie. What fun.


Wand of that 1st level druid spell that hides scent.
D&D: Solving magic's problems with more magic since whenever the first gaming forum noticed D&D.

[Douglas]

Yeah, but it lacks:
<snip>
3.) FIGHTING ABILITY BETTER THAN A ROGUE
Seriously. How can a first-level druid with limited weapons, light or hide armor, no BAB, and no bonus feat be as good a fighter as a fighter? Flanking only gives you so much, and early animal companions tend to be fragile. (Plus, fighters have their own flankers-ROGUES.)
Compare a typical first level fighter and a wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) or riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm), which are both choices for a level 1 Druid's animal companion. They're about on par. The Druid isn't the fighter, his animal companion is. The Druid's the one taking the Cleric's role - and also shutting down entire encounters with Entangle.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy. Locked.