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Ignatius
2010-12-01, 05:44 PM
Just a quick question for you all - we have had much discussion about this in our sessions and we are still no closer to determining the actual rules...

We are playing an epic level campaign (currently level 22).

On the character sheet under Melee Basic Attacks it lists my damage as 2d10 + 7.

On the Melee Basic Attack power card it says 'Level 21: 2[W] + Str' which turns out to be 2d10 + 7.

So, for my daily that reads 4[W] + Con (7) psychic damage is this 4d10 + 7 or 8d10 + 7?

Half of the group say 4d10 + 7 as that is the weapon damage and the other half say that at level 21 the weapon damage goes to 2d10 so it should be 8d10...

We cant find any specific ruling on this one either way. Can anyone help us?

ninja_penguin
2010-12-01, 05:47 PM
Always obey what the power says.

Your basic melee attack is, for all important purposes, an at-will power. All at-will powers (that I know of) get boosted up to 2[W] + X that used to be 1[W]+ X damage.

When you attack with a 4[W] Power, you deal 4[W] damage.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-01, 05:47 PM
[W] always stands for "weapon damage" not "basic melee attack damage"

If you're using a Battleaxe (1d10 damage) then a 4[W] attack does 4(1d10) damage whether you're in Heroic or Epic.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-01, 05:48 PM
The [W] is the weapon's damage die from the table in the Equipment Chapter. It never changes, despite the fact that your basic and at-will attacks change to 2[W] at Epic levels. 4[W] always equals 4[W]. Your attack will deal 4d10.

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 05:56 PM
So that means that my basic melee attack at 2[W] is more powerful than all of my at-wills which are only 1[W] but which require me to attack with the same weapon that would do 2[W] by itself?

If thats the rules then we will go with it, but it seems a bit backwards to me!

Freylorn
2010-12-01, 05:57 PM
Actually, pretty much all At-Wills also upgrade to 2[W] once you hit Epic. It should be listed in the power description.

Mordokai
2010-12-01, 05:59 PM
Actually, pretty much all At-Wills also upgrade to 2[W] once you hit Epic. It should be listed in the power description.

What he said. Epic means all your @wills double in power. At least most of which I'm familiar with.

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 06:32 PM
Always obey what the power says.

I have uploaded my character sheet here (http://startingtavern.com/pdf/hilton.pdf).

As you can see only one of my Augment 4 at will's has a 2[W] showing on the power card, all of the rest are only showing 1[W] even when the basic melee shows 2[W].

So, do I just follow the power cards, or are they wrong?

nightwyrm
2010-12-01, 06:50 PM
You're using a psionic class. They get shafted in epic since their at-wills don't automatically upgrade.

tcrudisi
2010-12-01, 06:53 PM
I have uploaded my character sheet here (http://startingtavern.com/pdf/hilton.pdf).

As you can see only one of my Augment 4 at will's has a 2[W] showing on the power card, all of the rest are only showing 1[W] even when the basic melee shows 2[W].

So, do I just follow the power cards, or are they wrong?

Ah, well you are using Psionics. With every edition, psionics work differently. 4e is no exception.

When we were referring to "at-wills" earlier, we meant for all non-psionic classes. Psionic classes differ in that all of their powers are at-will. Instead, they have a mechanic to make their powers encounter powers by spending power points. I assume you already know this, but it's important, so I'm saying it anyway.

Basically, the train of thought is that by epic, you can always afford the cheapest augment, anyway. So in effect, you can pump up your powers to be "2W" regardless. So, take Ghost in the Steel as an example. For 2 PP's, you get to augment your attack to be 2W damage ... plus you get an added benefit.

By the by, since you are a Battlemind, may I suggest Lightning Rush? It's only a ridiculously awesome power. My Battlemind was using it to do about 200 points of damage every round at level 16. (That was utilizing broken group tactics, but hey - the power is amazing.)

Back on topic: if you look at any non-Psionic at-will attack, you will see that they all get an upgrade at 21st level.

As an example, I literally just randomly picked a class and at-will and ended up with Ardent Strike (Paladin). At level 1 it does 1W + Str or Cha damage. At level 21, it increases to 2W + Str or Cha damage.

tldr; Psionics are different. You are assumed to have enough power points to be able to convert all your attacks anyway, so it's a moot point.

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 07:25 PM
When we were referring to "at-wills" earlier, we meant for all non-psionic classes. Psionic classes differ in that all of their powers are at-will. Instead, they have a mechanic to make their powers encounter powers by spending power points. I assume you already know this, but it's important, so I'm saying it anyway.

Basically, the train of thought is that by epic, you can always afford the cheapest augment, anyway. So in effect, you can pump up your powers to be "2W" regardless. So, take Ghost in the Steel as an example. For 2 PP's, you get to augment your attack to be 2W damage ... plus you get an added benefit.

Ok - I think I am missing something awesome for my character here cause some of this doesnt make sense! I dont have PHB3 so I havent been able to read up everything on Psionic classes.

When I look at my character sheet for Ghost in the Steel I read that if i use two power points I get to do 1[W] + 7 damage and the next time target hits I get to choose who it hits. Are you saying that I get to do this on top of the normal attack which is 1[W] + 7 + 4?

Also, does that mean that I can only augment the one power once per encounter, or once per augment type.

So in an encounter I can do standard Ghost in the Steel at-will multiple times, Ghost in the Steel Augment 1 once and Ghost in the Steel Augment 2 once?

I might try and get PHB3 for Christmas if all of this is explained in there!

nightwyrm
2010-12-01, 07:27 PM
You can augment any of your at-will powers any number of times providing you have the power points required.

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 07:31 PM
That's what I thought and that's what I have been doing.

But does that mean that you get the power's standard attack PLUS the augmented one on the one turn?

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-01, 07:39 PM
Ok - I think I am missing something awesome for my character here cause some of this doesnt make sense! I dont have PHB3 so I havent been able to read up everything on Psionic classes.

You are definitely missing something.


When I look at my character sheet for Ghost in the Steel I read that if i use two power points I get to do 1[W] + 7 damage and the next time target hits I get to choose who it hits. Are you saying that I get to do this on top of the normal attack which is 1[W] + 7 + 4?

No, Ghost in the Steel does not do more than 1[W] damage, no matter how much you augment it. Instead, the extra damage comes from the creature's own attacks which you can use against it or against its allies.


Also, does that mean that I can only augment the one power once per encounter, or once per augment type.

So in an encounter I can do standard Ghost in the Steel at-will multiple times, Ghost in the Steel Augment 1 once and Ghost in the Steel Augment 2 once?

This is completely wrong. Augmentation is done by spending Power Points. I can't find it on your sheet(nevermind, I found it), but you have a certain number of psionic Power Points at your disposal in each encounter with which you can augment your Battlemind at-will attack powers. There's no limit to how many times you can augment a specific power in an encounter other than the number of Power Points you have to spend, so if you have 10 PP you can use Ghost in the Steel's Augment 2 five times in a row if you wanted. (The number after the word "augment" is the number of PP you have to spend to get that effect.)


I might try and get PHB3 for Christmas if all of this is explained in there!

That might be a good idea!

EDIT: Psionic Augmentation, psionic at-will powers, and Power Points are all explained in the class description for each of the psionic classes (except the Monk, who uses completely different mechanics). For the Battlemind, this information can be found on page 43 of the PHB3. According to the table, at level 22 you should have 11 Power Points total, plus it looks like you got an additional 2 PP from your Paragon Path, bringing you up to 13.

nightwyrm
2010-12-01, 07:41 PM
No, the augment replaces whichever line it's mentioned.

So, if your augment has Target: Burst, it replaces whatever was on the target line in the un-augmented power.

tcrudisi
2010-12-01, 07:41 PM
When I look at my character sheet for Ghost in the Steel I read that if i use two power points I get to do 1[W] + 7 damage and the next time target hits I get to choose who it hits. Are you saying that I get to do this on top of the normal attack which is 1[W] + 7 + 4?

Also, does that mean that I can only augment the one power once per encounter, or once per augment type.

So in an encounter I can do standard Ghost in the Steel at-will multiple times, Ghost in the Steel Augment 1 once and Ghost in the Steel Augment 2 once?

I might try and get PHB3 for Christmas if all of this is explained in there!

Hahahaha - First, yes, please get PHB3 if you are going to use Psionics. It does make sense to own the book that the class (heck, in this case: power source) you are owning is in. Especially since the psionic power source differs from all the others, it helps to know everything about it.

I'm assuming you are using the character builder then (goodness, I hope so, anyway).

Okay - with your augments, you can continue to use the augments as many times as you have power points. Using Ghost in the Shell as an example, you can use the augment 2 up to 6 times. Why 6? Because you have 13 power points according to your character sheet (which seems low to me: what are your paragon path and epic destiny?).

When you use the Augment 2, you get everything it says you get. In this case, when you hit with the augment 2 of Ghost in the Shell, you do 1W + Con damage and the neat ability to force it to attack someone else when it uses a melee attack (which, sure, you may be doing 1d10 less damage than a 2W attack, but that ability is soooo worth it. It protects you and your allies by forcing him to waste an attack on himself and if he hits, he'll do a lot more than 1d10 damage.)

Or, if you wanted, you could use an augment 1 Ghost in the Shell 13 times.

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 07:48 PM
OK - that is how I have been doing it - so I must have been doing it right, just got confused with myself for a moment!

I might go look at PHB3 today and then get it for christmas!

Thanks for your help everyone... at least I can sort out weapons damage for all of the other non-psionic players!

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 08:48 PM
Will look up paragon path and epic destiny when I get a chance. Got called out to a meeting.

Mando Knight
2010-12-01, 09:01 PM
You are assumed to have enough power points to be able to convert all your attacks anyway, so it's a moot point.
This. At Epic, you're expected to be able to use the base Augmentation (typically only a few points) frequently enough that it won't matter that the unaugmented form is comparatively worthless. Why they didn't just unite the base Augment into the unaugmented power is beyond me, but that's their design decision.

Telepath Psions don't care about any of that, though. They'll be using the same unaugmented at-will they have since level 3: Betrayal, ramping it up to Augment 1 or 2 as necessary.
I, Lelouch vi Britannia command you: crush your allies!
Certainly, Your Highness!

Ignatius
2010-12-01, 11:33 PM
Because you have 13 power points according to your character sheet (which seems low to me: what are your paragon path and epic destiny?).

Paragon Path - Steel Ego
Epic Destiny - Invincible Mind

We started these characters out at level 21 so I am slowly learning which powers dont work or arent useful in my current party and am retraining them out each time we level up.

Seerow
2010-12-01, 11:41 PM
If I recall correctly, don't Psionic characters get new at wills every so often rather than encounter powers, since their augmentations turn the at wills into encounter powers?

If this is the case, have you looked at lvl 21+ psionic powers? I would guess that all the pre-epic powers were 1[w] or equivalent pre augment, to be in line with everyone else, but epic powers are 2[w] or equivalent pre augment, again to keep them in line with everyone else.

I don't have that book on hand at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that's how it worked.

Mando Knight
2010-12-01, 11:42 PM
Because you have 13 power points according to your character sheet (which seems low to me: what are your paragon path and epic destiny?).

13 is actually the right amount for a level 21 Battlemind who took a Psionic PP: don't forget that the number of PP you get in 4E is more than an order of magnitude lower than the number you get for a high-level 3.5 Psionic character, but operate on a per-encounter basis rather than a per-day basis.

If this is the case, have you looked at lvl 21+ psionic powers? I would guess that all the pre-epic powers were 1[w] or equivalent pre augment, to be in line with everyone else, but epic powers are 2[w] or equivalent pre augment, again to keep them in line with everyone else.WotC flubbed here, they actually don't scale correctly unless you always use the Augment 2. Invincible Mind fixes this a little for a Battlemind, since its level 26 Utility auto-augments at-will attack powers by 1 (Heroic or Paragon) or 2 (Epic) when otherwise unaugmented and against the designated foe, and the level 24 feature provides a means of refreshing PP.

Blackfang108
2010-12-01, 11:50 PM
If I recall correctly, don't Psionic characters get new at wills every so often rather than encounter powers, since their augmentations turn the at wills into encounter powers?

If this is the case, have you looked at lvl 21+ psionic powers? I would guess that all the pre-epic powers were 1[w] or equivalent pre augment, to be in line with everyone else, but epic powers are 2[w] or equivalent pre augment, again to keep them in line with everyone else.

I don't have that book on hand at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that's how it worked.

Nope. It's not. Not for PP using Psychic classes.